IRC log of rdf-wg on 2011-06-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:57:52 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:52 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/08-rdf-wg-irc
14:57:54 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
14:57:56 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 73394
14:57:56 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
14:57:57 [mischat_]: mischat_ has joined #rdf-wg
14:57:57 [trackbot]: Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:57:57 [trackbot]: Date: 08 June 2011
14:57:59 [SteveH__]: SteveH__ has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:37 [cygri_]: ah well, that was unnecessary
14:58:38 [davidwood]: Zakim, who is here?
14:58:38 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, davidwood
14:58:54 [cygri]: i hear that "trackbot, start meeting" magically invites zakim and rrsagent
14:59:43 [ww]: Zakim, who am I?
14:59:43 [Zakim]: I don't understand your question, ww.
15:00:12 [cygri]: zakim, who is on the phone?
15:00:13 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, cygri
15:00:31 [Guus]: zakim, who is here?
15:00:31 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has not yet started, Guus
15:00:31 [pchampin]: pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:09 [SteveH]: Zakim, this is RDF
15:01:09 [Zakim]: ok, SteveH; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:01:38 [Zakim]: +??P31
15:01:45 [AlexHall]: AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:46 [SteveH]: Zakim, ??P31 is [Garlik]
15:01:46 [Zakim]: +[Garlik]; got it
15:01:49 [mischat]: hello all
15:01:55 [cygri]: zakim, who is here?
15:01:56 [Olivier]: Olivier has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:58 [davidwood]: Zakim, who is here?
15:01:58 [Zakim]: On the phone I see wcandillon, +1.540.898.aaaa, Guus_Schreiber, +3539149aabb, ??P14, [Garlik]
15:01:59 [SteveH]: Zakim, [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:02:07 [Zakim]: On the phone I see wcandillon, +1.540.898.aaaa, Guus_Schreiber, +3539149aabb, ??P14, [Garlik]
15:02:10 [Zakim]: +SteveH, mischat; got it
15:02:11 [davidwood]: Zakim, aaaa is me
15:02:12 [cygri]: zakim aabb is me
15:02:17 [cygri]: zakim, aabb is me
15:02:19 [ww]: Zakim, ??P14 is me
15:02:26 [Zakim]: +davidwood; got it
15:02:29 [Zakim]: +Peter_Patel-Schneider
15:02:35 [AZ]: zakim, wcandillon is me
15:02:36 [Zakim]: +cygri; got it
15:02:40 [Zakim]: +ww; got it
15:02:42 [ww]: Zakim, mute me
15:02:53 [Zakim]: +AZ; got it
15:02:56 [Zakim]: + +1.443.212.aacc
15:03:04 [Zakim]: ww should now be muted
15:03:10 [AlexHall]: zakim, aacc is me
15:03:20 [Zakim]: +AlexHall; got it
15:03:21 [Guus]: zakim, who is here?
15:03:30 [Zakim]: +[Sophia]
15:03:34 [Zakim]: On the phone I see AZ, davidwood, Guus_Schreiber, cygri, ww (muted), [Garlik], Peter_Patel-Schneider, AlexHall, [Sophia]
15:03:37 [Zakim]: [Garlik] has SteveH, mischat
15:03:41 [Zakim]: +??P37
15:03:50 [pchampin]: zakim, ??P37 is me
15:03:50 [Zakim]: +pchampin; got it
15:04:10 [SteveH]: scribenick: SteveH
15:04:22 [SteveH]: scribe: SteveH
15:05:33 [SteveH]: Guus: minuites
15:05:40 [SteveH]: ... any objections....
15:06:04 [SteveH]: ... resolved, accept minutes of last meeting
15:06:18 [SteveH]: ... no actions pending review, open action items:
15:06:30 [SteveH]: ... options for issue 15
15:06:55 [SteveH]: cygri: it's related to graphs stuff, we should refactor it
15:07:06 [SteveH]: ... start progress over again
15:07:21 [SteveH]: Guus: it's on an agenda item
15:07:28 [SteveH]: ... lets close this action, and see
15:07:55 [SteveH]: ... 3rd action is on Sandro "start conversation on reservings"/
15:08:22 [SteveH]: [it might be .well-known]
15:08:52 [SteveH]: cygri, it's whether we approach the IEFT now, or wait
15:09:09 [SteveH]: Guus: can someone add a note saying what it means
15:09:17 [SteveH]: davidwood: I'll add something
15:09:43 [cygri]: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html#section-Graph-Literal
15:09:48 [SteveH]: cygri: ...about literals ^
15:09:52 [davidwood]: SteveH: Thanks. My recent status change seems to have left me unable to edit the wiki.
15:10:39 [SteveH]: Guus: nearing time when europeans will go on holiday
15:11:00 [SteveH]: ... several ways - we can tke a break, or meet every week with a small group, or do telecons every 2 weeks over summertime
15:11:06 [SteveH]: ... happy to accept other points
15:11:20 [cygri]: trackbot, close ACTION-25
15:11:20 [trackbot]: ACTION-25 Write up the different options re ISSUE-15 closed
15:11:22 [Zakim]: +PatH
15:11:29 [SteveH]: davidwood: we have one week where we know lots of people will be absent
15:11:37 [SteveH]: Guus: does 2 weeks sound fine?
15:11:48 [ww]: +1 every two weeks
15:12:03 [PHayes]: PHayes has joined #rdf-wg
15:12:17 [cygri]: SteveH: sparql keeps running through the summer, lots of americans on the group
15:12:20 [davidwood]: +1 to 2 weeks
15:12:22 [SteveH]: +1
15:12:26 [pfps]: pfps has joined #rdf-wg
15:12:40 [SteveH]: Guus: suggest we do every 2 weeks, back to normal on 3rd week of aug
15:12:47 [SteveH]: Guus: I will propose a schedule
15:13:00 [SteveH]: ACTION: Guus to propose schedule
15:13:00 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-55 - Propose schedule [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-06-15].
15:13:24 [SteveH]: ACTION-55: schedule for meetings over the summer that is
15:13:24 [trackbot]: ACTION-55 Propose schedule notes added
15:13:28 [PHayes]: Um..sorry Im late...why are we changing the schedule?
15:13:34 [Zakim]: +Kingsley_Idehen
15:13:45 [MacTed]: Zakim, Kingsley_Idehen is OpenLink_Software
15:13:45 [Zakim]: +OpenLink_Software; got it
15:13:54 [MacTed]: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:13:54 [Zakim]: +MacTed; got it
15:13:58 [SteveH]: Guus: SPARQL last call WD
15:13:59 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
15:13:59 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
15:14:09 [AlexHall]: PatH, because Europeans are about to go on holiday.
15:14:20 [PHayes]: Ah.
15:14:23 [SteveH]: ... decided that we will have personal reviews from members + review on behalf of RDF WD
15:14:40 [SteveH]: ... actions were not recorded
15:14:49 [pchampin]: zakim, unmute me
15:14:49 [Zakim]: pchampin should no longer be muted
15:15:06 [SteveH]: pchampin: haven't had time to look into it
15:15:28 [SteveH]: Guus: it's proper behaviour for us to respond quickly
15:15:42 [SteveH]: ACTION: pchampin to review SPARQL LC WD document
15:15:42 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-56 - Review SPARQL LC WD document [on Pierre-Antoine Champin - due 2011-06-15].
15:16:09 [SteveH]: ACTION: Guus to contact Yves R. re. SPARQL reviews
15:16:09 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-57 - Contact Yves R. re. SPARQL reviews [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-06-15].
15:16:44 [SteveH]: Guus: Lee F. suggested we organise a short telecon to discuss graph terminology
15:18:14 [SteveH]: davidwood: would be in the contxet of coord group
15:18:20 [SteveH]: s/would/could/
15:18:49 [SteveH]: Guus: message of 16th May
15:19:00 [SteveH]: ... 15th May in US
15:19:31 [SteveH]: ACTION: Guus to organise telecon with SPARQL WG on graph terminology
15:19:31 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-58 - Organise telecon with SPARQL WG on graph terminology [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-06-15].
15:19:44 [pchampin]: of course
15:19:57 [SteveH]: Guus: pchampin, would be nice if you could take into account discussion of string literals
15:20:12 [SteveH]: Status of documentation
15:20:32 [SteveH]: Guus: concepts document, it's in mercurial
15:20:43 [SteveH]: ... I assume that most of the respec problems have been fixed
15:20:45 [cygri]: RDF Concepts, editors draft: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/rdf/raw-file/default/rdf-concepts/index.html
15:20:57 [SteveH]: ... I suggest to reuse old templates
15:21:14 [SteveH]: cygri: one way to start would be take a copy of HTML files, especially header
15:21:19 [SteveH]: ... you have to make some obvious changes
15:21:27 [SteveH]: ... then insert the current content as published
15:21:47 [SteveH]: Guus: I did that already for the primer
15:21:59 [SteveH]: ... would be best is we started adding docs to repo
15:22:25 [ww]: aside: i tried writing a spec with respec.js attempting to put the vocabulary in rdfa inside it. didn't work very well...
15:22:28 [PHayes]: I have to say, this whole process is utterly alien to me and I really have not even begun hjow to install the necessary software. As I have no idea what it is doing, I dont know how to know if I ge it right.
15:22:38 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:23:34 [SteveH]: PHayes: I'll learn how to do it, but it will take me a while
15:24:10 [SteveH]: Guus: Richard sent a doc with shortnames for docuemnts, seems obvious
15:24:20 [SteveH]: ... but why is it turtle, not rdf-turtle
15:24:24 [SteveH]: cygri: either would be ok
15:24:35 [SteveH]: Guus: we have rdf- infront of all of them
15:24:53 [SteveH]: davidwood: I propose to make that change
15:25:11 [AZ]: \me +1 to rdf- for all documents
15:25:46 [SteveH]: cygri: we should have a page (on the wiki) about the documents
15:25:53 [SteveH]: ... I could create
15:26:18 [SteveH]: ACTION: cygri to create page on wiki about documents and editing
15:26:18 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-59 - Create page on wiki about documents and editing [on Richard Cyganiak - due 2011-06-15].
15:26:58 [SteveH]: Guus: will try for early Turtle draft, relatively little work, but work needs to be done
15:27:15 [SteveH]: ACTION Guus to discuss Turtle doc schedule with ericP
15:27:15 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-60 - Discuss Turtle doc schedule with ericP [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-06-15].
15:27:36 [SteveH]: Guus: will attempt to report back next week
15:27:59 [PHayes]: +1 to david
15:28:11 [SteveH]: davidwood: can we leave the telecon slot open
15:28:19 [SteveH]: [general agreement]
15:28:44 [SteveH]: Guus: content issues
15:29:13 [SteveH]: ... as far as I can see the main changes to concepts are graphs TF issues, have to reach consensus, but lots of open issues
15:29:25 [SteveH]: ... wondering if its useful to do review next week
15:29:42 [SteveH]: ... is someone willing to prepare that discussion
15:30:02 [davidwood]: +1 to refocus discussion on graphs
15:30:08 [SteveH]: ... about 10 issues open, propose we start discussing next week
15:30:19 [SteveH]: ... re. concepts doc
15:30:31 [PHayes]: Unfortunately this particular week is impossible for me, or I would volunteer. Good idea.
15:30:32 [pchampin]: +1
15:31:03 [SteveH]: ... issues are well documented, so should review issues, and assign actions
15:31:05 [cygri]: +1 to reviewing the issues + deciding on actions
15:31:15 [SteveH]: ... one issue is being tacked by telecon
15:31:36 [SteveH]: ... we were close to consensus in last discussion
15:31:54 [SteveH]: ... next week 30 mins minimum for review of status of graphs issues
15:32:18 [SteveH]: ... last 5 postponed issues
15:32:44 [SteveH]: ... ISSUE-58
15:32:57 [SteveH]: ... david proposes we should close it as it's archaic
15:33:03 [pfps]: +1
15:33:05 [SteveH]: +1, close it
15:33:07 [PHayes]: agreee close
15:33:07 [pchampin]: +1
15:33:08 [AlexHall]: +1
15:33:15 [AZ]: +1 close
15:33:19 [cygri]: +1 close
15:33:35 [SteveH]: RESOLVED: close ISSUE-58
15:33:39 [SteveH]: by consensus
15:33:58 [SteveH]: ISSUE-59
15:34:21 [SteveH]: Guus: "RDF XML syntax can't represent arbitrary graphs"
15:34:25 [pfps]: +10 to not upgrade RDF/XML to do this
15:34:34 [SteveH]: +1 to close
15:34:40 [pfps]: +1 to *close*
15:34:48 [AZ]: +1 to close
15:34:49 [AlexHall]: It's already noted in the specs
15:34:52 [AlexHall]: +1 to close
15:34:57 [pfps]: q+
15:35:14 [pfps]: q-
15:35:19 [PHayes]: propose we leave this open for now, until we consider rdf/xml. No need to close it.
15:35:25 [davidwood]: +1 to close
15:35:26 [cygri]: ISSUE-59?
15:35:26 [trackbot]: ISSUE-59 -- Revisit "The RDF/XML syntax can't represent an an arbritary graph structure" -- raised
15:35:26 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/59
15:36:45 [cygri]: q+
15:37:15 [Guus]: ack cygri
15:37:25 [pfps]: I don't see a possible future in which RDF/XML changes to represent all graphs.
15:37:30 [SteveH]: +1
15:37:48 [PHayes]: OK, 0 from me.
15:38:03 [pchampin]: q+
15:38:10 [Zakim]: -MacTed
15:38:24 [pfps]: q+ to say that Richard is confused
15:38:27 [MacTed]: silly phone system....
15:38:34 [pchampin]: g-
15:38:37 [Zakim]: +OpenLink_Software
15:38:38 [pchampin]: q-
15:38:39 [PHayes]: richard has a good point. THis may be a non-issue due to an old clerical error.
15:38:41 [cygri]: issue description here: http://www.w3.org/2000/03/rdf-tracking/#rdfms-syntax-incomplete
15:38:45 [MacTed]: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
15:38:45 [Zakim]: +MacTed; got it
15:38:48 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
15:38:48 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
15:38:58 [pchampin]: q+ to understand who's confused
15:39:49 [SteveH]: ACTION: pfps to check whether ISSUES-59 is still pertinient (may be obsolete)
15:39:49 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-61 - Check whether ISSUES-59 is still pertinient (may be obsolete) [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2011-06-15].
15:40:04 [ww]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-rdfcore-wg/2002Jul/0163.html <-- actions to add nodeID recorded
15:40:09 [pchampin]: q-
15:40:14 [SteveH]: ISSUE-60?
15:40:14 [trackbot]: ISSUE-60 -- Revisit "Defining the interpretation of fragment identifiers in RDF embedded in other document formats" -- raised
15:40:14 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/60
15:40:28 [cygri]: q+
15:40:35 [SteveH]: Guus: propose to continue
15:40:49 [cygri]: ISSUE-37?
15:40:49 [trackbot]: ISSUE-37 -- Handling of fragment identifiers in RDF embedded in other document formats -- raised
15:40:49 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/37
15:41:22 [SteveH]: cygri: things like RDFa make this question more important, so this should be considered
15:41:39 [SteveH]: Guus: we have an issue already, so we can close 60, redir to 37
15:42:09 [SteveH]: ... can someone add a link to 37, and close 60?
15:42:19 [pfps]: I'll do it, instead of my other action.
15:42:21 [cygri]: +1 to close and redirect to ISSUE-37
15:42:41 [PHayes]: FWIW, re. issue 59, the 26 july 2000 wg minutes say that this issue is "removed from the WG's issue list", not "postponed".
15:42:48 [SteveH]: RESOLVED by consensus to close ISSUE-60 and redirect to ISSUE-37
15:43:17 [pfps]: go it
15:43:21 [pfps]: got it
15:43:23 [PHayes]: OK
15:43:29 [SteveH]: Guus: looks like ISSUE-59 was an admin error
15:43:45 [SteveH]: ISSUE-61?
15:43:45 [trackbot]: ISSUE-61 -- Revisit "An XML literal without markup, e.g. "foo" should denote the same thing as the plain literal "foo"" -- raised
15:43:45 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/61
15:44:15 [pfps]: I don't think that Issue-12 talks about XML literals now.
15:44:19 [SteveH]: I don't believe that "foo" is a legal XMLLiteral, is it?
15:44:51 [SteveH]: "<foo />" is legal, I think
15:44:59 [PHayes]: +1 Steve.
15:45:51 [SteveH]: Guus: prefer not to close it with the current text, quite sure that we will close it with the statement that it's misguided
15:45:58 [PHayes]: I dont understand this issue? Was it to make "foo"^^^rdf:XMLLIteral be identical with something else? If so, what?
15:46:16 [AZ]: Close it but do not mention Issue-12
15:46:21 [PHayes]: +1
15:46:36 [SteveH]: Guus: propose to close the issue stating that the statement is not true
15:46:51 [AZ]: +1
15:46:57 [davidwood]: +1
15:47:17 [AZ]: "foo"^^^rdf:XMLLIteral owl:differentFrom "foo"
15:47:30 [SteveH]: Guus: more discussion?
15:47:51 [SteveH]: propose to close issue-61 stating that the answer should be no
15:47:57 [pchampin]: +1
15:47:59 [SteveH]: +1
15:48:01 [AZ]: +1 use pfps proposal
15:48:02 [pfps]: +1
15:48:02 [davidwood]: +1
15:48:13 [SteveH]: RESOLVED: close ISSUE-61 stating that the answer is "no"
15:48:29 [PHayes]: Why do I keep thinking 'augean'?
15:48:39 [SteveH]: ISSUE-62?
15:48:39 [trackbot]: ISSUE-62 -- Revisit "The test cases manifest format has a semantic error" -- raised
15:48:39 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/62
15:48:56 [SteveH]: Guus: propose to continue this issue, and look again when we're working on testcases
15:49:04 [SteveH]: ... leave it open
15:49:06 [PHayes]: +1 to doing nothing.
15:49:10 [SteveH]: +1
15:49:13 [AZ]: +1
15:49:36 [SteveH]: ISSUE-12?
15:49:36 [trackbot]: ISSUE-12 -- Reconcile various forms of string literals (time permitting) -- open
15:49:36 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/12
15:50:12 [SteveH]: Guus: there's a thread about this, it appears we're close to consensus
15:50:22 [SteveH]: ... would like discussion about things we don't have consensus about
15:50:28 [SteveH]: ... plan for resolution next week
15:50:29 [PHayes]: I think we need a better name for rdf:LanguageTaggedLIteral
15:50:49 [SteveH]: PHayes: I think we're close to consensus, what about alt. proposal about using datatypes
15:51:26 [SteveH]: ... about only remaining thing we're still debating is what we're calling this datatype, and how best to explain it so it doesn't sound complicated
15:51:38 [SteveH]: Guus: it's important to spend time on naming
15:52:08 [SteveH]: PHayes: there's on more issue, there's 2 ways to present it, the new datatype
15:52:26 [ww]: so "chat"@fr -> "\"chat\"@fr"^^rdf:LTR ??
15:52:43 [SteveH]: ... one is to retain the current model sctrictly, but we have to use PlainLiteral device in abstract syntax, to include both parts in one string, easy, but ugly(?)
15:52:57 [cygri]: q+
15:53:14 [pfps]: q-
15:53:17 [SteveH]: ... or would could bite the bullet and treat it like its a datatype, but it takes a pair, the extension is trivial, some people things it's complex, but I don't agree
15:53:27 [SteveH]: q?
15:53:32 [Guus]: ack cygri
15:54:03 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
15:54:17 [SteveH]: cygri: there are several ways to handle connection between abs. syntax and semantics, one was is to leave PLs as they are, and say that rdf:LTS is not actually a DT, but a class
15:54:32 [SteveH]: ... of all <string, langtag> pairs
15:54:39 [SteveH]: ... worht considering, or do people object
15:54:47 [SteveH]: PHayes: that's a viable option too
15:55:01 [SteveH]: ... if you look how they get used, it's only used as a classname
15:55:06 [SteveH]: ... or a token
15:55:34 [SteveH]: ... we can just say that (something) without saying it's a DT
15:55:44 [SteveH]: cygri: it seems that it's the least painful way
15:55:59 [ww]: q+
15:56:03 [SteveH]: ... it might be a bit cleaner to do it with a DT, but we still have three things
15:56:15 [SteveH]: ... seems to cause oposition from implementors
15:56:19 [SteveH]: +1
15:56:25 [SteveH]: ... maybe it would be a good option
15:56:25 [Guus]: +1 for Richard's option
15:56:49 [PHayes]: As long as it can be treated as a 'type' in SPARQL :-)
15:56:52 [SteveH]: ... two more things, may still be disagreement, there's ....
15:56:54 [ww]: zakim, unmute me
15:56:54 [Zakim]: ww should no longer be muted
15:57:29 [SteveH]: ww: this proposal seems like a half measure, intriduces an extra 3rd thing, and cant use rdf machiney to model langs, which we might want to do
15:57:38 [SteveH]: ... we should leave open the possibility
15:57:44 [PHayes]: Which proposal is Ww referring to?
15:57:48 [SteveH]: ... having a tuple-space with datatype means we cant do that
15:57:58 [SteveH]: cygri: i'm confused
15:58:19 [SteveH]: ww: dt with string,lang pairs means the lang is disconnected
15:58:35 [SteveH]: ... there should be a DT for LTS, with subtypes, for every language
15:58:42 [SteveH]: ... leave the door open for modelling that
15:58:48 [SteveH]: ... abolish langtags
15:58:48 [PHayes]: q
15:58:52 [PHayes]: +q
15:58:58 [SteveH]: cygri: can't follow that
15:59:00 [Guus]: ack ww
15:59:02 [SteveH]: ... what is the proposal
15:59:21 [Guus]: ack PHayes
15:59:37 [SteveH]: ww: langtags abolished, strings are strngs, subsets of the sets of all strings that are strings in particular languages, subtypes of the string datatype
15:59:40 [PHayes]: I dont htink that our users will tolerate our bainishing lang tags on literals.
15:59:44 [pchampin]: that does not work; language are orthogonal to strings
16:00:10 [SteveH]: PHayes: there is a sizeable user population that demanded them with passion, can't get rid of them
16:00:18 [SteveH]: ... inc. the 23c i18n group
16:00:36 [SteveH]: ww: not saying remove the function, just make it a kind of DT
16:01:00 [SteveH]: [sounds like ww is describing langtags as datatypes option]
16:01:10 [ww]: SteveH: yes
16:02:09 [cygri]: cygri has joined #rdf-wg
16:02:27 [SteveH]: ww: get rid of langtags yes, but map them to dts(?)
16:02:46 [SteveH]: ... want to make languages a tree of datatypes
16:02:56 [cygri]: q+
16:03:08 [cygri]: q-
16:03:11 [SteveH]: PHayes: any proposal that removes langtags from syntax of RDF wont''t fly
16:03:12 [SteveH]: +1
16:03:24 [SteveH]: ww: will write proposal to list
16:03:43 [ww]: zakim, mute me
16:03:43 [Zakim]: ww should now be muted
16:03:54 [SteveH]: cygri: some discussion is needed re. preference of different contrcete syntax forms
16:04:09 [SteveH]: ... e.g. in NTriples would now have two options, "foo", "foo"^^xsd:string
16:04:23 [SteveH]: ... there are different tradeoffs in different formats
16:04:38 [SteveH]: ... in NTriples is good that there's not much syntax variation
16:04:55 [SteveH]: ... would make things harder if I find both in the wild
16:05:12 [SteveH]: ... should we say that one SHOULD, MUST or SHOULD NOT use one of these forms
16:05:22 [pchampin]: q+
16:05:23 [SteveH]: ... or allow each spec to do it's own thing
16:05:35 [SteveH]: ... I think I disagree with AndyS about some format issues
16:05:44 [SteveH]: [what]s AndyS's position?}
16:05:53 [PHayes]: +1 to getting all this VERY CLEAR, for sure.
16:05:59 [SteveH]: Guus: shortest form is usally preferable
16:06:08 [SteveH]: +1 to VERY CLEAR
16:06:41 [SteveH]: cygri: AndyS says that authors SHOULD use the shortest form, in SPARQL results I would really like to be able to know whether the strings are going to have the DT or not
16:06:47 [SteveH]: +1 to cygri
16:06:49 [AZ]: AZ has joined #rdf-wg
16:06:57 [PHayes]: Richard, you are shooting Andy in the foot here.
16:07:02 [SteveH]: cygri: so a SHOULD isn't string enough to me
16:07:20 [SteveH]: ... in turtle I don't see the need
16:07:26 [pchampin]: s/string enough/strong enough/
16:07:43 [SteveH]: ... would like to see a stronger statement
16:07:43 [Guus]: q?
16:07:50 [pchampin]: ack me
16:08:00 [PHayes]: Everyone wants the query language to be both semantically transparent and also sensitive to the smallest lexical detail. Cant have it both ways, guys.
16:08:20 [SteveH]: pchampin: I agree for need for regularity, but maybe there are differences
16:08:28 [SteveH]: ... NTriples I see 3 alternatives
16:08:36 [SteveH]: ... allow both, bad idea
16:08:57 [SteveH]: ... keep shortest one, best of three, but some iregulariy, string literals must be treated in special way
16:09:02 [PHayes]: How much legacy RDF is there out there that uses one and not the other? Do we ahve a choic eot not allow both?
16:09:04 [pfps]: I'm feeling very weirded-out by all this SPARQL stuff. RDF is supposed to be about *meaning*, not syntax, not even abstract syntax!
16:09:07 [cygri]: q+
16:09:10 [SteveH]: ... enforce xsd:string, but breaks a lot of existing NTriples
16:09:27 [SteveH]: ... for the sake of back-compat we have to keep shortest form
16:09:32 [PHayes]: Yes, pfps, but querying is all about syntactic matching. You betcha.
16:09:53 [PHayes]: q+
16:10:09 [SteveH]: Guus: users typically use the shortest form, but sparql query uses the DT form
16:10:26 [pfps]: Well, not as far as I am concerned. Querying is about retrieving meaning. (As opposed to straight entailment, which is simpler.)
16:10:27 [SteveH]: I would be -1 to SPARQL using the long form, that's a lot of bytes
16:10:56 [SteveH]: pchampin: I would be in favour of MUST for NTriples and SPARQL res, but not others, but not sure which form is best
16:11:29 [SteveH]: ... both would break some existing data, most reg. form is with the datatype
16:11:31 [SteveH]: q+
16:11:33 [PHayes]: pfps, so listen to Richard. He wants to make queries which distinguish a from b when a = b is *necessary*. Any why not? Hos code has to handle the suyntax, not the meaning.
16:11:38 [SteveH]: ... explicit is better than implicit
16:11:54 [SteveH]: ... there are a lot of plain literals out there
16:11:55 [ww]: less typing, more clarity and consistency - make developers lives easy as possible.
16:12:08 [Guus]: ack cygri
16:12:12 [SteveH]: cygri: for back compat we have to keep both forms valid
16:12:24 [ww]: +1 cygri
16:12:25 [SteveH]: ... we cant say that any forms would now be invalid in NTriples
16:12:28 [SteveH]: +1
16:12:37 [Guus]: +1 for not using MUST
16:12:40 [SteveH]: ... when parsing both forms are valid, but when serialising, only use one form,
16:12:48 [pchampin]: +1, enforced regularity would break backward compatibility
16:13:03 [pchampin]: +1 about distinguishing old stuff/new stuff
16:13:07 [SteveH]: PHayes: I agree with Richard, there's so much stuff out there, can't make it illigal
16:13:33 [SteveH]: ... one meaning can be expressed two different ways, the tool should treat them as equivalent
16:13:52 [Guus]: 2 min left
16:13:54 [SteveH]: ... is results sensitive to the way the query is stated
16:13:56 [ww]: +1 for tools treating them equivalently (and probably normalising them to w/ datatype internally)
16:14:29 [ww]: +1 for fewer bytes on the wire
16:14:50 [PHayes]: +1 to SteveH.
16:15:02 [SteveH]: SteveH: the long form is less efficient
16:15:13 [SteveH]: ... even though it's easier to canonicalise to
16:15:15 [pchampin]: well, you are trading bandwith for (slight) code complexity
16:15:31 [pchampin]: you're just moving the inefficiency somewhere else :)
16:15:33 [SteveH]: Guus: is someone willing to look at cygri's proposal
16:15:41 [PHayes]: LOL
16:15:53 [ww]: pchampin: not only bandwidth - developers who look at it don't want to see extraneous cruft
16:16:16 [SteveH]: Guus: next week re restart graphs discussion
16:16:25 [SteveH]: ... hopefully can set a dte for graphs naming discussions
16:16:29 [cygri]: ww, pchampin: by same argument, N-Triples should write 6 for "6"^^xsd:decimal
16:16:31 [Zakim]: -PatH
16:16:34 [Zakim]: -MacTed
16:16:35 [Zakim]: -AlexHall
16:16:36 [AZ]: bye
16:16:37 [Zakim]: -Peter_Patel-Schneider
16:16:42 [pchampin]: +1 cygri :)
16:16:43 [Zakim]: -AZ
16:16:45 [Zakim]: -[Sophia]
16:16:51 [AlexHall]: AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:17:14 [pchampin]: bye all
16:17:17 [Zakim]: -pchampin
16:17:17 [pchampin]: pchampin has left #rdf-wg
16:17:18 [ww]: cygri: that wouldn't be the end of the world, but agree there is a slippery slope
16:17:27 [SteveH]: trackbot, end meeting
16:17:27 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
16:17:27 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been +1.540.898.aaaa, Guus_Schreiber, +3539149aabb, SteveH, mischat, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, cygri, ww, AZ, +1.443.212.aacc, AlexHall,
16:17:28 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:17:28 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/08-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
16:17:29 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
16:17:29 [RRSAgent]: I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/08-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
16:17:29 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Guus to propose schedule [1]
16:17:29 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/08-rdf-wg-irc#T15-13-00
16:17:29 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: pchampin to review SPARQL LC WD document [2]
16:17:29 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/08-rdf-wg-irc#T15-15-42
16:17:29 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Guus to contact Yves R. re. SPARQL reviews [3]
16:17:29 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/08-rdf-wg-irc#T15-16-09
16:17:29 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Guus to organise telecon with SPARQL WG on graph terminology [4]
16:17:29 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/08-rdf-wg-irc#T15-19-31
16:17:29 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: cygri to create page on wiki about documents and editing [5]
16:17:29 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/08-rdf-wg-irc#T15-26-18
16:17:29 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: pfps to check whether ISSUES-59 is still pertinient (may be obsolete) [6]
16:17:29 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/06/08-rdf-wg-irc#T15-39-49
16:17:30 [Zakim]: ... [Sophia], pchampin, PatH, MacTed
16:17:41 [Zakim]: -cygri
16:18:34 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
16:18:34 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/06/08-rdf-wg-irc
16:19:22 [davidwood]: trackbot, end meeting
16:19:22 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
16:19:22 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been +1.540.898.aaaa, Guus_Schreiber, +3539149aabb, SteveH, mischat, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, cygri, ww, AZ, +1.443.212.aacc, AlexHall,
16:19:23 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:19:23 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/06/08-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
16:19:24 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
16:19:25 [Zakim]: ... [Sophia], pchampin, PatH, MacTed
16:20:01 [davidwood]: rrsagent, make minutes public
16:20:01 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', davidwood. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:20:18 [davidwood]: rrsagent, please make the minutes world
16:20:18 [RRSAgent]: I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make the minutes world', davidwood. Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:25:40 [SteveH]: davidwood, the irc -> minutes software doesn't think you're in the group, do you know how I can fix that?
16:28:05 [Zakim]: -Guus_Schreiber
16:28:07 [Zakim]: -davidwood
16:28:10 [davidwood]: Um, I'm *not* in the group at the moment - I hope that will be fixed today
16:28:23 [davidwood]: I know I sounded like I was in the group ;)
16:28:47 [davidwood]: I'm transitioning from Talis to IE and next back to a proper affiliation.
16:29:02 [SteveH]: davidwood, ah, ok it's making red boxes appear in the minuites, will those be removed in the final version?
16:29:03 [davidwood]: Each transition causes trouble
16:29:25 [davidwood]: Maybe you should ask Sandro by email? He is responsive
16:29:31 [SteveH]: I'm tempted to press on...
16:29:39 [davidwood]: That works too :)
16:30:39 [SteveH]: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-06-08
16:32:26 [SteveH]: I left the red boxes in, can't see how to remove them
16:38:46 [davidwood1]: davidwood1 has joined #rdf-wg
16:51:51 [sandro]: SteveH, minutes are okay now, altough I'm confused by the first resolution. (just closing an issue, without comment, makes no sense.)
17:03:53 [SteveH]: sandro, yes, sorry, bad scribing :-/
17:11:19 [sandro]: :-) It happens. Looking more, I guess I can figure it out.
17:25:08 [Zakim]: -ww
17:30:08 [Zakim]: disconnecting the lone participant, [Garlik], in SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
17:30:10 [Zakim]: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
17:30:14 [Zakim]: Attendees were +1.540.898.aaaa, Guus_Schreiber, +3539149aabb, SteveH, mischat, davidwood, Peter_Patel-Schneider, cygri, ww, AZ, +1.443.212.aacc, AlexHall, [Sophia], pchampin, PatH,
17:30:17 [Zakim]: ... MacTed
18:36:16 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #rdf-wg
19:21:04 [cygri_]: cygri_ has joined #rdf-wg
21:04:58 [ivan]: ivan has joined #rdf-wg
21:54:32 [cygri]: cygri has joined #rdf-wg
22:15:52 [mischat]: mischat has joined #rdf-wg
22:30:21 [mischat]: mischat has joined #rdf-wg