IRC log of ua on 2011-05-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:40:43 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #ua

16:40:43 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-ua-irc

16:40:45 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

16:40:47 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG

16:40:47 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 20 minutes

16:40:48 [trackbot]

Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

16:40:48 [trackbot]

Date: 19 May 2011

16:40:52 [JAllan]

chair: JimAllan

16:42:21 [JAllan]

regrets: Jan

16:42:39 [JAllan]

agenda+ 2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0033.html

16:42:54 [JAllan]

zakim, agenda

16:42:54 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'agenda', JAllan

16:42:58 [JAllan]

zakim, agenda?

16:42:58 [Zakim]

I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:

16:43:00 [Zakim]

1. Review Survey (link to come) [from jeanne]

16:43:02 [Zakim]

2. EIR for GL 2.9 Provide control of content that may reduce [from jeanne]

16:43:05 [Zakim]

3. EIR GL 1.9 (2-11) Provide an effective focus [from jeanne]

16:43:06 [Zakim]

4. Action Item Review [from jeanne]

16:43:07 [Zakim]

5. 2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0033.html [from JAllan]

16:43:33 [JAllan]

zakim, close item 1

16:43:33 [Zakim]

agendum 1, Review Survey (link to come), closed

16:43:34 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

16:43:35 [Zakim]

2. EIR for GL 2.9 Provide control of content that may reduce [from jeanne]

16:43:40 [JAllan]

zakim close item 2

16:43:50 [JAllan]

zakim, close item 2

16:43:50 [Zakim]

agendum 2, EIR for GL 2.9 Provide control of content that may reduce, closed

16:43:52 [Zakim]

I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

16:43:53 [Zakim]

3. EIR GL 1.9 (2-11) Provide an effective focus [from jeanne]

16:43:56 [JAllan]

zakim, close item 3

16:43:56 [Zakim]

agendum 3, EIR GL 1.9 (2-11) Provide an effective focus, closed

16:43:57 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

16:43:59 [Zakim]

4. Action Item Review [from jeanne]

16:44:02 [JAllan]

zakim, close item 4

16:44:02 [Zakim]

agendum 4, Action Item Review, closed

16:44:03 [Zakim]

I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:

16:44:04 [Zakim]

5. 2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0033.html [from JAllan]

16:44:34 [JAllan]

agenda+ review 1.2.3 Repair Missing Associations: from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0032.html

16:52:43 [kford]

kford has joined #ua

16:53:02 [kford]

zakim, agenda?

16:53:02 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:

16:53:04 [Zakim]

5. 2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0033.html [from JAllan]

16:53:08 [Zakim]

6. review 1.2.3 Repair Missing Associations: from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0032.html [from JAllan]

16:56:44 [kford]

trackbot, start meeting

16:56:46 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

16:56:48 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG

16:56:48 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

16:56:49 [trackbot]

Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

16:56:49 [trackbot]

Date: 19 May 2011

16:57:01 [kford]

zakim, agenda?

16:57:01 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:

16:57:03 [Zakim]

5. 2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0033.html [from JAllan]

16:57:07 [Zakim]

6. review 1.2.3 Repair Missing Associations: from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0032.html [from JAllan]

16:57:21 [jeanne]

jeanne has joined #ua

16:59:31 [Zakim]

WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started

16:59:38 [Zakim]

+JAllan

17:00:23 [sharper]

sharper has joined #ua

17:01:18 [Greg]

Greg has joined #ua

17:02:04 [JAllan]

regrets+MarkH

17:02:17 [Zakim]

+Greg

17:02:23 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

17:02:24 [JAllan]

zakim, time?

17:02:24 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, JAllan.

17:02:33 [kford]

zakim, microsoft is kford

17:02:33 [Zakim]

+kford; got it

17:03:11 [Zakim]

+Jeanne

17:06:07 [kford]

http://accessibilitycampseattle.org/blog/

17:06:58 [kford]

http://accessibilitycampseattle.org/blog/

17:08:21 [Zakim]

+KimPatch

17:08:42 [sharper]

zakim, code?

17:08:42 [Zakim]

the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper

17:10:02 [kford]

Agenda+Continue work on IER items needing content

17:10:04 [kford]

Agenda+Review proposals/comments sent to list. Currently:

17:10:05 [kford]

2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0033.html

17:10:07 [kford]

1.2.3 Repair Missing Associations: from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0032.html

17:10:09 [kford]

Agenda+Action Item Review

17:12:07 [Zakim]

+??P6

17:12:23 [sharper]

zakim, ??P6 is sharper

17:12:23 [Zakim]

+sharper; got it

17:22:48 [kford]

speech input blog. http://blogs.sitepoint.com/html5-speech-input-fields/

17:22:56 [JAllan]

http://www.google.com/search?hl=&q=html5+speech+input+api&sourceid=navclient-ff&rlz=1B3GGLL_en___US426&ie=UTF-8&aq=1&oq=html+5+speech

17:25:50 [KimPatch]

KimPatch has joined #ua

17:26:20 [JAllan]

all, discussion of events, rants, and a11y in html-next

17:28:15 [kford]

Scribe: kford

17:28:37 [kford]

rrsagent, make minutes

17:28:37 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-ua-minutes.html kford

17:29:38 [JAllan]

zakim, agenda?

17:29:38 [Zakim]

I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:

17:29:39 [Zakim]

5. 2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0033.html [from JAllan]

17:29:44 [Zakim]

6. review 1.2.3 Repair Missing Associations: from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0032.html [from JAllan]

17:29:47 [Zakim]

7. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]

17:29:49 [Zakim]

8. Review proposals/comments sent to list. Currently: [from kford]

17:29:51 [Zakim]

9. Action Item Review [from kford]

17:30:45 [kford]

Present+Simon, Kim, Jim, Greg, Kelly, Jeanne

17:31:10 [kford]

zakim, agenda?

17:31:10 [Zakim]

I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:

17:31:12 [Zakim]

5. 2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0033.html [from JAllan]

17:31:17 [Zakim]

6. review 1.2.3 Repair Missing Associations: from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0032.html [from JAllan]

17:31:20 [Zakim]

7. Continue work on IER items needing content [from kford]

17:31:22 [Zakim]

8. Review proposals/comments sent to list. Currently: [from kford]

17:31:23 [Zakim]

9. Action Item Review [from kford]

17:31:52 [kford]

zakim, take up item 5

17:31:52 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0033.html" taken up

17:31:55 [Zakim]

... [from JAllan]

17:32:38 [JAllan]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Keyboard,_Focus,_and_Navigation_Restructuring

17:33:23 [kford]

GL: I am going to give an overview of the issue that Simon is talking about.

17:33:43 [Greg]

2.7.1 has some overlaps with 2.1.6 and 2.1.7 but there are also key differences:

17:33:44 [Greg]

a) 2.7.1 described by Simon as mouseless browsing, but it's not...

17:33:46 [Greg]

b) 2.7.1 talks about programmatic access

17:33:48 [Greg]

c) 2.7.1 gives both UI and content Level A (vs. different on 2.1.6/7)

17:34:05 [Greg]

2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes: Direct navigation and activation keystrokes are discoverable both programmatically and via perceivable labels. (Level A)

17:34:06 [Greg]

2.1.6 (former 4.1.6) Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content: The user can have any recognized direct commands (e.g. accesskey) in rendered content be presented with their associated elements (e.g. "[Ctrl+t]" displayed after a link whose accesskey value is "t", or an audio browser reading the value or label of a form control followed by "accesskey control plus t"). (Level A)

17:34:08 [Greg]

2.1.7 (former 4.1.7) Present Direct Commands in User Interface: The user has the option to have any direct commands (e.g. keyboard shortcuts) in the user agent user interface be presented with their associated user interface controls (e.g. "Ctrl+S" displayed on the "Save" menu item and toolbar button). (Level AA)

17:36:04 [Greg]

In Kim's and my proposal we moved everything relating to direct navigation and activation into a new guideline, which we numbered 2.3:

17:36:06 [Greg]

Guideline 2.3: Provide direct navigation and activation [includes former 2.1.6, 2.1.7, 2.1.11]

17:36:08 [Greg]

* 2.3.1 Direct Navigation to Important Elements [former 2.7.4, before that 4.7.2, name change] (Level A)

17:36:09 [Greg]

* 2.3.2 Direct Activation [former 2.7.6, before that 4.7.5] (Level AA)

17:36:11 [Greg]

* 2.3.3 Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content [former 2.1.6, before that 4.1.6, also 2.7.1] (Level A)

17:36:13 [Greg]

* 2.3.4 Present Direct Commands in User Interface [former 2.1.7, before that 4.1.7, also 2.7.1] (Level AA)

17:36:14 [Greg]

* 2.3.3 User Override of Accesskeys [former 2.1.11, before that 4.1.11]

17:38:54 [JAllan]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Keyboard,_Focus,_and_Navigation_Restructuring

17:40:38 [kford]

Group talking abot sorting out various proposals on these topics.

17:40:42 [JAllan]

simons original proposal in the wiki - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Guideline_2.7#Proposed_2.7.1_Discover_navigation_and_activation_keystrokes:

17:41:07 [kford]

s/abot/about

17:44:14 [kford]

JA: I'm hearing that you want 2.7.1 to go away bgecause it is in 2.3.3 and 2.3.4.

17:45:14 [kford]

JA: Do the new 2.3.3 and 2.3.4 cover the mouseless browsing example.

17:45:28 [kford]

GL: It would be these in conjunction with 2.3.1.

17:45:49 [kford]

KP: We did change the title but at the time we were doing this, we did think this would cover this.

17:46:06 [kford]

KP: That is mouseless browsing would be covered by 2.3.1.

17:47:40 [kford]

JA: Are there objections to removing 2.7.1 and just living with 2.3.1, 2.3.3 and 2.3.4.

17:48:33 [JAllan]

+1

17:48:39 [sharper]

+1

17:49:39 [kford]

Group consensus seems to be that eliminating 2.7.1 is the way to go.

17:50:48 [kford]

JS: When moving things around in the wiki, please us numbers like A, B and such rather than numbers so I know things are being inserted.

17:51:47 [kford]

Resolved: 2.7.1 to be dropped in favor of 2.3.1, 2.3.3 and 2.3.4

17:52:39 [kford]

Action: JS to update document appropriately to eliminate 2.7.1.

17:52:40 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-557 - Update document appropriately to eliminate 2.7.1. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-26].

17:55:46 [JAllan]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Keyboard,_Focus,_and_Navigation_Restructuring#Related_Resources_for_Success_Criterion_2.1.6_.28former_4.1.6.29:

18:01:45 [kford]

JA asking gfroup about this text.

18:01:51 [kford]

Group is good with it.

18:05:01 [kford]

zakim, close item 5

18:05:01 [Zakim]

agendum 5, 2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0033.html, closed

18:05:04 [Zakim]

I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

18:05:06 [Zakim]

6. review 1.2.3 Repair Missing Associations: from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0032.html [from JAllan]

18:05:48 [jeanne]

action: Jeanne to Jeanne with Greg and Kim work together to renumber the document. Jeanne to add the approved text for 2.2.3 to the new 2.2.3 SC. (Save existing text to be renumbered)

18:05:48 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-558 - Jeanne with Greg and Kim work together to renumber the document. Jeanne to add the approved text for 2.2.3 to the new 2.2.3 SC. (Save existing text to be renumbered) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-26].

18:07:01 [kford]

JA giving overview of group on American Publishers association and an accessibility effort.

18:07:24 [kford]

JA: Group going to be reviewing ATAG and UAAG.

18:10:17 [kford]

GL: RElated to all these off topic discussions we've talked about a central place for known browser bugs.

18:12:24 [JAllan]

something similar to www.quirksmode.org/css/quirksmode.html

18:15:09 [jeanne]

http://www.w3.org/wiki/Testing/Requirements

18:15:19 [Zakim]

-kford

18:17:30 [JAllan]

scribe: jallan

18:17:48 [JAllan]

sh: IBM Raven,

18:18:01 [sharper]

http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/raven

18:19:29 [JAllan]

list of UA issues that impact a11y: inpage links, tooltips, longdesc, accesskeys, generated content

18:20:38 [JAllan]

W3 has a working group on JavaScript API, which is a huge a11y issue

18:21:02 [JAllan]

action jallan to create a wiki page for list of UA issues that impact a11y: inpage links, tooltips, longdesc, accesskeys, generated content

18:21:02 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-559 - Create a wiki page for list of UA issues that impact a11y: inpage links, tooltips, longdesc, accesskeys, generated content [on Jim Allan - due 2011-05-26].

18:21:34 [JAllan]

zakim, open item 6

18:21:34 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "review 1.2.3 Repair Missing Associations: from Simon Harper - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011AprJun/0032.html" taken up [from JAllan]

18:21:47 [JAllan]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Guideline_1.2

18:23:18 [sharper]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Guideline_2.7#Proposed_2.7.2_Access_Relationships

18:23:28 [sharper]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Guideline_1.11

18:23:55 [JAllan]

2.7.2 (former 4.7.3) Access Relationships: The user can access explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content (e.g., show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers). (Level A)

18:24:23 [JAllan]

1.2.3 Repair Missing Associations: The user can specify whether or not the user agent should attempt to predict associations from author-specified presentation attributes (i.e. position and appearance). (Level AAA)

18:25:16 [JAllan]

sh: I did IER for 1.2.3. reviewed UAAG2 and found 2.7.2.

18:26:39 [JAllan]

... proposing remove 2.7.2 and replace with 1.2.3

18:27:20 [JAllan]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110428/

18:27:42 [JAllan]

KP: these seem different.

18:29:48 [JAllan]

sh: prefers 'associations' to 'relationships'

18:29:53 [JAllan]

gl: +1

18:30:06 [JAllan]

kp: need to be explicit.

18:31:24 [kford_]

kford_ has joined #ua

18:37:17 [JAllan]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:37:17 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-ua-minutes.html JAllan

18:37:46 [Zakim]

-KimPatch

18:37:57 [Zakim]

-JAllan

18:37:59 [Zakim]

-sharper

18:37:59 [Zakim]

-Greg

18:38:19 [Zakim]

-Jeanne

18:38:20 [Zakim]

WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended

18:38:22 [Zakim]

Attendees were JAllan, Greg, kford, Jeanne, KimPatch, sharper

18:38:32 [JAllan]

zakim, please part

18:38:32 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #ua

18:38:40 [JAllan]

rrsagent, make minutes

18:38:40 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-ua-minutes.html JAllan

18:39:25 [JAllan]

rrsagent, please part

18:39:25 [RRSAgent]

I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-ua-actions.rdf :

18:39:25 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: JS to update document appropriately to eliminate 2.7.1. [1]

18:39:25 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-ua-irc#T17-52-39

18:39:25 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Jeanne to Jeanne with Greg and Kim work together to renumber the document. Jeanne to add the approved text for 2.2.3 to the new 2.2.3 SC. (Save existing text to be renumbered) [2]

18:39:25 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-ua-irc#T18-05-48