IRC log of prov on 2011-05-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:02 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:45:02 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-irc
14:45:04 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
14:45:04 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #prov
14:45:06 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be
14:45:06 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:45:07 [trackbot]
Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:45:07 [trackbot]
Date: 19 May 2011
14:45:17 [luc]
Zakim, this will be PROV
14:45:17 [Zakim]
ok, luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:45:40 [luc]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19
14:45:55 [luc]
Chair: Paul Groth
14:46:08 [luc]
Scribe: smiles
14:46:22 [luc]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:47:38 [luc]
Regrets: Kai Eckert
14:51:15 [Zakim]
SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:51:17 [Zakim]
+??P12
14:51:28 [pgroth]
Zakim, ??P12 is pgroth
14:51:28 [Zakim]
+pgroth; got it
14:51:37 [pgroth]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:51:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgroth
14:52:45 [smiles]
smiles has joined #prov
14:52:45 [Zakim]
+luc
14:52:47 [Zakim]
-luc
14:52:47 [Zakim]
+luc
14:53:42 [Zakim]
+??P21
14:53:55 [smiles]
zakim, ??P21 is me
14:53:55 [Zakim]
+smiles; got it
14:54:36 [zednik]
zednik has joined #prov
14:54:55 [dgarijo]
dgarijo has joined #prov
14:55:21 [simoninireland]
simoninireland has joined #prov
14:57:20 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.276.aaaa
14:57:39 [tlebo]
tlebo has joined #prov
14:57:50 [Zakim]
+??P22
14:58:06 [Zakim]
+DavidSchaengold
14:58:08 [Christine]
Christine has joined #prov
14:58:17 [DavidSchaengold]
DavidSchaengold has joined #prov
14:58:30 [tlebo]
What command do I use to associate my irc handle to my phone?
14:58:39 [Zakim]
+??P30
14:58:42 [EdoardoandDavid]
EdoardoandDavid has joined #prov
14:58:44 [pgroth]
\me Zakim blah is blah
14:59:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.858.210.aabb
14:59:15 [jorn]
Zakim: ??P30 is me
14:59:23 [tlebo]
\me Zakim P22 is tlebo
14:59:26 [Zakim]
+??P35
14:59:31 [Edoardo_and_David]
Edoardo_and_David has joined #prov
14:59:32 [tlebo]
Zakim P22 is tlebo
14:59:41 [CarlOGC]
CarlOGC has joined #prov
14:59:49 [jorn]
Zakim, ??P30 is me
14:59:49 [Zakim]
+jorn; got it
14:59:50 [tlebo]
Zakim, ??P22 is tlebo
14:59:50 [Zakim]
+tlebo; got it
14:59:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.805.893.aacc
14:59:52 [Zakim]
+??P37
14:59:56 [frew]
frew has joined #prov
15:00:00 [jun]
jun has joined #prov
15:00:12 [dgarijo]
Zakim, ??P37 is me
15:00:12 [Zakim]
+dgarijo; got it
15:00:12 [satya]
satya has joined #prov
15:00:17 [Zakim]
+??P3
15:00:34 [YogeshSimmhan]
YogeshSimmhan has joined #prov
15:00:42 [olaf]
olaf has joined #prov
15:00:45 [Zakim]
+SatyaSahoo
15:00:46 [paolo]
paolo has joined #prov
15:00:53 [jorn]
zakim, who is talking?
15:00:54 [pgroth]
Zakim, who's there?
15:00:54 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, pgroth.
15:01:00 [Zakim]
+??P4
15:01:03 [Zakim]
jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (28%)
15:01:28 [Zakim]
+paolo_
15:01:34 [Zakim]
+olaf
15:01:38 [GK]
GK has joined #prov
15:01:44 [jcheney]
jcheney has joined #prov
15:01:51 [luc]
Guest: Paolo (paolo_) Missier
15:01:54 [Zakim]
+ +1.518.633.aadd
15:02:03 [iker]
iker has joined #prov
15:02:12 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:02:14 [luc]
Guest: Satya Sahoo
15:02:18 [pgroth]
Zakim, who's on the call?
15:02:18 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:02:22 [Zakim]
... +1.518.633.aadd, [IPcaller]
15:02:26 [Zakim]
+Yogesh
15:02:32 [luc]
Guest: Yogesh Simmhan
15:02:35 [jun]
zakim, [IPcaller] is jun
15:02:36 [Zakim]
+??P40
15:02:40 [Zakim]
+jun; got it
15:02:43 [jcheney]
Zakim, ??P40 is me
15:02:51 [pgroth]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:53 [Zakim]
+jcheney; got it
15:02:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:03:01 [khalidbelhajjame]
khalidbelhajjame has joined #prov
15:03:03 [Zakim]
... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney
15:03:04 [frew]
I am +1.805.893.aacc
15:03:06 [Zakim]
+??P42
15:03:31 [zednik]
I am +1.518.633.aadd
15:03:40 [dgarijo]
Zakim, 1.805.893.aacc is frew
15:03:40 [Zakim]
sorry, dgarijo, I do not recognize a party named '1.805.893.aacc'
15:03:45 [Zakim]
+??P44
15:03:54 [Zakim]
+??P8
15:03:56 [Christine]
Hi. Sorry everyone. I'm not sure how to assign myself. Calling using VOIP. (Thanks Luc, you did send instructions.)
15:04:11 [pgroth]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:04:14 [Zakim]
... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, ??P8
15:04:14 [khalidbelhajjame]
zakim, ??P8 is really me
15:04:14 [Zakim]
+khalidbelhajjame; got it
15:04:46 [GK_]
GK_ has joined #prov
15:04:54 [pgroth]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:04:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:04:58 [Zakim]
... +1.518.633.aadd, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame
15:05:00 [frew]
+q
15:05:39 [jorn]
zakim, aad is zednik
15:05:39 [Zakim]
sorry, jorn, I do not recognize a party named 'aad'
15:05:40 [dgarijo]
Type: "Zakim, <YOUR id> is me"
15:05:45 [jorn]
zakim, aadd is zednik
15:05:45 [Zakim]
+zednik; got it
15:05:54 [pgroth]
Zakim, who's on the phone
15:05:54 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone', pgroth
15:06:01 [jorn]
zakim, aacc is frew
15:06:01 [Zakim]
+frew; got it
15:06:04 [pgroth]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:06:04 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, frew, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, zednik, jun,
15:06:09 [Zakim]
... Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame
15:06:21 [pgroth]
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19
15:06:21 [Zakim]
+??P17
15:06:27 [frew]
zakim, frew is +1-805-893-7356
15:06:27 [Zakim]
++1-805-893-7356; got it
15:06:37 [smiles]
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.05.19
15:06:37 [SamCoppens]
SamCoppens has joined #prov
15:06:46 [Zakim]
+Yolanda
15:06:52 [CarlOGC]
zakim skype carl.n.reed CarlOGC
15:06:57 [GK]
+??P44
15:07:01 [pgroth]
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-05-12
15:07:01 [luc]
Guest: Yolanda Gil
15:07:01 [smiles]
TOPIC: Admin
15:07:13 [pgroth]
PROPOSED to accept the minutes of 12 May telecon
15:07:20 [simoninireland]
+1
15:07:21 [dgarijo]
+1
15:07:21 [khalidbelhajjame]
+1
15:07:22 [satya]
+1
15:07:23 [DavidSchaengold]
+1
15:07:23 [smiles]
+1
15:07:23 [SamCoppens]
zakim, +??44 is SamCoppens
15:07:23 [Zakim]
sorry, SamCoppens, I do not recognize a party named '+??44'
15:07:24 [frew]
+1
15:07:25 [jcheney]
+1
15:07:26 [jorn]
+1
15:07:28 [tlebo]
+1
15:07:29 [Edoardo_and_David]
+1
15:07:37 [GK]
+1
15:07:42 [olaf]
+1
15:07:45 [iker]
+1
15:07:46 [jun]
+1
15:07:48 [SamCoppens]
zakim, ??44 is SamCoppens
15:07:49 [Zakim]
sorry, SamCoppens, I do not recognize a party named '??44'
15:07:55 [GK]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:07:55 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, +1-805-893-7356, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf,
15:08:01 [Zakim]
... zednik, jun, Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, ??P44, khalidbelhajjame, ??P17, Yolanda
15:08:04 [jorn]
zakim, who is talking?
15:08:14 [Zakim]
jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 25 (3%), pgroth (54%), DavidSchaengold (24%), ??P35 (51%), ??P44 (12%)
15:08:16 [pgroth]
minutes accepted
15:08:18 [pgroth]
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open
15:08:25 [tlebo]
Zakim, ??P44 is SamCoppens
15:08:25 [Zakim]
+SamCoppens; got it
15:08:31 [SamCoppens]
thanks
15:09:02 [smiles]
pgroth: action to add links to examples (active topics from front Wiki page) has been done
15:09:14 [frew]
zakim, +1-805-893-7356 is me
15:09:14 [Zakim]
+frew; got it
15:09:23 [smiles]
... encourage all to add links when new active topics
15:09:41 [satya]
q+
15:09:46 [pgroth]
ack frew
15:09:55 [smiles]
pgroth: slowly resolving issues getting everyone on group, mailing list
15:10:07 [GK]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:10:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, tlebo, DavidSchaengold, jorn, +1.858.210.aabb, ??P35, frew, dgarijo, ??P3, SatyaSahoo, ??P4, paolo_, olaf, zednik, jun,
15:10:10 [Zakim]
... Yogesh, jcheney, ??P42, SamCoppens, khalidbelhajjame, ??P17, Yolanda
15:10:19 [smiles]
satya: how soon will invited expert issues be resolved?
15:10:30 [satya]
q-
15:10:37 [Zakim]
-SamCoppens
15:10:44 [smiles]
pgroth: don't know, for W3C
15:10:47 [pgroth]
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Scribes
15:11:01 [Zakim]
+??P44
15:11:13 [GK]
zakim, ??P44 is me
15:11:13 [Zakim]
+GK; got it
15:11:17 [smiles]
pgroth: we need scribes for the next weeks - please add you names, else will pick on people
15:11:36 [luc]
see instructions http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp
15:11:44 [VinhNguyen]
VinhNguyen has joined #prov
15:11:53 [luc]
we can help set up before meeting
15:12:03 [smiles]
pgroth: responsibilities of scribes are to write summaries of what people say, and commands are available on the link luc just sent
15:12:27 [pgroth]
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExample
15:12:42 [smiles]
TOPIC: data journalism example
15:12:56 [jorn]
zakim,, who|s noisy
15:13:00 [Zakim]
I don't understand ', who|s noisy', jorn
15:13:05 [smiles]
pgroth: we decided to take an example-based approach, comments were received, are there any more?
15:13:08 [khalidbelhajjame]
there is noise on the line
15:13:09 [jorn]
zakim, who's noisy
15:13:12 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's noisy', jorn
15:13:38 [GK]
zakim, who is talking
15:13:38 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is talking', GK
15:13:46 [jorn]
zakim, who is talking?
15:13:50 [dgarijo]
zakim, who is making noise?
15:13:54 [Zakim]
-jorn
15:13:58 [Zakim]
jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (19%), +1.518.276.aaaa (4%), Yolanda (51%)
15:14:09 [Zakim]
dgarijo, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (5%), pgroth (32%), Yolanda (43%)
15:14:10 [smiles]
YolandaG: liked example, but where we illustrate what a provenance container is, need to be clear that not all provenance may be in that container - may need to access other areas
15:14:30 [Zakim]
-smiles
15:14:34 [tlebo]
yolanda: should consider situation where not all provenance is in the same "container", and would need to go fetch additional provenance for that resource.
15:14:35 [Zakim]
+??P45
15:14:46 [jorn]
zakim, ??P45 is me
15:14:46 [Zakim]
+jorn; got it
15:14:56 [jun]
+1 to YolandaG
15:14:58 [pgroth]
can people use the queue
15:15:15 [luc]
???: multiple sources are not represented yet in the example
15:15:25 [Zakim]
+VinhNguyen
15:15:32 [pgroth]
Zakim, mute YolandaG
15:15:32 [Zakim]
sorry, pgroth, I do not know which phone connection belongs to YolandaG
15:15:35 [Zakim]
+??P46
15:15:40 [pgroth]
Zakim, mute Yolanda
15:15:40 [Zakim]
Yolanda should now be muted
15:15:55 [jorn]
zakim, who is talking?
15:16:02 [pgroth]
q?
15:16:06 [Zakim]
jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (9%), pgroth (43%), DavidSchaengold (13%), ??P35 (14%), smiles (18%)
15:16:29 [luc]
carlOGC: to send a few words to incorporate map
15:16:38 [smiles]
CarlOGC: asks about incorporating a map into the example
15:16:49 [tlebo]
would the group mind expanding the variables used in the scenario? (e.g. lcp1)
15:17:12 [tlebo]
+1 to continuing with example.
15:17:27 [smiles]
pgroth: can we proceed with example as is, and expand as we go along - nice to move on to discussing concepts
15:17:29 [GK]
+1 to moving on, update example as needed.
15:17:48 [khalidbelhajjame]
+1 for continuing to change the example along instead of trying to get right now
15:17:55 [pgroth]
proposal: continue updating example, but use the data journalism example as it currently stands
15:17:57 [YogeshSimmhan]
+1
15:17:58 [jorn]
+1
15:18:00 [dgarijo]
+1
15:18:02 [khalidbelhajjame]
+1
15:18:02 [satya]
I agree, we should start with the example and let it evolve
15:18:02 [tlebo]
+1
15:18:03 [olaf]
+1 to moving on
15:18:03 [smiles]
+1
15:18:04 [jorn]
zakim, who is talking?
15:18:06 [Edoardo_and_David]
+1
15:18:07 [SamCoppens]
+1
15:18:09 [paolo]
+1
15:18:11 [jun]
+1
15:18:12 [iker]
+1 moving on
15:18:15 [Zakim]
jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: khalidbelhajjame (27%)
15:18:18 [zednik]
+1
15:18:19 [simoninireland]
+1
15:18:20 [jcheney]
+1
15:18:23 [jorn]
zakim, please mute khalidbelhajjame
15:18:23 [Zakim]
khalidbelhajjame should now be muted
15:18:28 [VinhNguyen]
+1
15:18:35 [GK]
+1
15:18:37 [Zakim]
-khalidbelhajjame
15:18:57 [frew]
if you are in a public place then please mute
15:19:01 [pgroth]
proposal accepted
15:19:02 [tlebo]
+q
15:19:03 [DavidSchaengold]
+1
15:19:15 [Zakim]
+??P8
15:19:28 [smiles]
tlebo: what are the next steps beyond making tweaks to scenario?
15:19:33 [khalidbelhajjame]
zakim, ??P8 is really me
15:19:35 [Zakim]
+khalidbelhajjame; got it
15:20:05 [dgarijo]
+q
15:20:23 [smiles]
pgroth: proceed as we have been doing by email to discuss example
15:20:27 [tlebo]
pgroth: how to proceed with current example: continue to discuss via email.
15:20:40 [luc]
ack tlebo
15:20:46 [pgroth]
ack dgarijo
15:20:53 [smiles]
dgarijo: proposal to add another example(s) on mailing list
15:20:54 [Zakim]
-pgroth
15:20:57 [jorn]
zakim, who is noisy?
15:20:57 [tlebo]
[]: do we create a new example to capture scientific domain.
15:20:58 [satya]
q+
15:21:11 [Zakim]
jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DavidSchaengold (59%), ??P35 (29%)
15:21:15 [pgroth]
i droped
15:21:17 [tlebo]
q?
15:21:20 [pgroth]
can you take over luc
15:21:37 [luc]
yes
15:21:42 [jorn]
zakim, please mute DavidSchaengold
15:21:42 [Zakim]
DavidSchaengold should now be muted
15:21:47 [tlebo]
q?
15:21:50 [dgarijo]
finally!
15:21:52 [Zakim]
+??P12
15:22:08 [pgroth]
zakim, ??P12 is pgroth
15:22:08 [Zakim]
+pgroth; got it
15:22:27 [tlebo]
proposal: create an additional example for scientific domain.
15:22:51 [smiles]
luc: agreed last time to start with first example for discussing concepts, bring other examples when need found
15:22:54 [satya]
q-
15:23:04 [tlebo]
luc: we agreed to start with this example to discuss concepts. When this scenario does not capture the concepts of sci prov, we develop new example.
15:23:17 [paulo]
paulo has joined #prov
15:23:33 [tlebo]
+1 working with the example as is.
15:23:36 [smiles]
pgroth: we need to move on discussing concepts, but can keep iterating
15:23:58 [smiles]
TOPIC: provenance access and query task force
15:24:04 [pgroth]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0071.html
15:24:15 [tlebo]
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Access_and_Query_Task_Force
15:24:31 [smiles]
pgroth: discussion of architecture on mailing list, any comments on how to get tf started?
15:24:49 [Zakim]
+paulo
15:24:50 [smiles]
olaf: we agreed on a set of objectives for F2F
15:25:20 [smiles]
... including draft for access and query architecture
15:25:22 [iker]
+1 olaf proposal
15:25:34 [pgroth]
http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/XGR-prov/
15:25:41 [GK]
q+, to say I'm not sure how the provenance XG report really works as a foundation
15:25:46 [khalidbelhajjame]
+1 for Olaf's proposal
15:25:52 [smiles]
PROPOSED: base draft architecture on XG report linked above
15:25:57 [d3a303]
d3a303 has joined #prov
15:26:03 [dgarijo]
+1
15:26:07 [SamCoppens]
+1
15:26:50 [smiles]
GK: not clear from XG report what the problem trying to be solved is
15:26:50 [Zakim]
+ +1.509.375.aaee
15:27:08 [tlebo]
[]: we need a clear problem statement for PAQ-TF.
15:27:12 [satya]
q+
15:27:18 [smiles]
... will send thoughts to mailing list on this
15:27:26 [paulo]
q+
15:27:41 [luc]
ack satya
15:27:46 [smiles]
satya: agree with Olaf, but in XG report did not discuss query mechanism only access
15:27:58 [smiles]
... will we discuss query separately?
15:28:21 [smiles]
pgroth: olaf's proposal was around access, fit into web architecture
15:28:33 [luc]
q+
15:29:57 [Zakim]
-jorn
15:30:00 [tlebo]
paulo: we need questions for the provenance example.
15:30:15 [smiles]
paulo: we have scenario with list of questions which could be posed, but should have queries which motivate problem - design for answering questions asked
15:30:16 [Zakim]
+??P45
15:30:25 [jorn]
zakim, ??P45 is me
15:30:25 [Zakim]
+jorn; got it
15:30:34 [tlebo]
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceExample#Provenance_Questions
15:31:18 [smiles]
luc: discussions on access task force were good, and discussion of XG report was positively received
15:31:31 [smiles]
... we were pointed to POWDER as something to consider
15:32:06 [smiles]
... queries are in scope of this WG, but not intent of WG to design a query language for provenance
15:32:40 [GK]
+1 not designing a query language
15:32:45 [smiles]
pgroth: two proposals to proceed: use incubator group report section to build up from
15:32:59 [GK]
q+ to say not opposing use of XG doc
15:33:05 [pgroth]
ack paulo
15:33:07 [pgroth]
ack luc
15:33:09 [YogeshSimmhan]
+1 to olaf proposal to use XG report as starting point
15:33:16 [Zakim]
-Yogesh
15:33:18 [smiles]
... second, crisply define the problems we are trying to solve first
15:33:42 [khalidbelhajjame]
+1
15:33:44 [smiles]
+1
15:33:45 [Zakim]
+Yogesh
15:33:45 [SamCoppens]
+1
15:33:45 [jcheney]
+1 for starting point
15:33:46 [simoninireland]
+1
15:33:47 [olaf]
+1
15:33:48 [jorn]
+1
15:33:49 [dgarijo]
+1
15:33:50 [tlebo]
+1
15:33:50 [d3a303]
+1
15:33:51 [DavidSchaengold]
+1
15:33:55 [jun]
+1 for starting point
15:33:56 [GK]
+1 (taking into account resevrations noted in email)
15:34:04 [satya]
I also propose that we rename PAQ task force as provenance access task force
15:34:05 [Edoardo_and_David]
+1
15:34:09 [satya]
+1
15:34:11 [dgarijo]
also, +1 to not designing a new query language.
15:34:25 [Zakim]
-paulo
15:34:26 [khalidbelhajjame]
+q
15:34:27 [d3a303]
d3a303 - is ericstephan - btw :-)
15:34:34 [pgroth]
ack GK
15:34:34 [Zakim]
GK, you wanted to say not opposing use of XG doc
15:34:38 [GK]
q-
15:34:48 [d3a303]
d3a303 has left #prov
15:34:51 [pgroth]
ack khalidbelhajjame
15:35:24 [smiles]
khalid: with regard to query language being outside scope of WG, we should be clear that only access
15:35:26 [smiles]
RESOLVED: use incubator report access architecture as starting point for access and query task force F2F draft
15:35:30 [GK]
q+ to say that identifying mechanisms to use existing QL is OK
15:35:37 [luc]
It is still the case that we may want to explain how to use, say SPARQL, to query provenance
15:35:38 [ericstephan]
ericstephan has joined #prov
15:35:48 [satya]
q+
15:36:36 [smiles]
pgroth: could rename access and query task force to access only, but also have reference to sparql endpoints etc in charter
15:36:48 [Zakim]
+paulo
15:36:57 [satya]
q-
15:36:57 [pgroth]
q?
15:37:00 [smiles]
satya: not proposing new query language, but say how existing languages to fit into architecture
15:37:36 [smiles]
GK: maybe in scope how to make use of existing query languages, mechanisms
15:38:12 [smiles]
TOPIC: concepts illustration
15:38:31 [pgroth]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011May/0018.html
15:38:39 [pgroth]
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/CharterConceptsIllustration
15:38:45 [smiles]
pgroth: asked people to discuss how example can be used to illustrate concepts from charter
15:39:23 [paulo]
paulo has joined #prov
15:39:28 [paulo]
q+
15:39:29 [smiles]
... used scenario to propose examples for concepts - not many comments yet - are they reasonable?
15:39:39 [pgroth]
ack GK
15:39:39 [Zakim]
GK, you wanted to say that identifying mechanisms to use existing QL is OK
15:39:45 [pgroth]
ack paulo
15:40:05 [Altintas]
Altintas has joined #prov
15:40:19 [smiles]
paulo: maybe limiting that example is so focused on a process
15:42:02 [smiles]
... use of process may blind us to cover all aspects we need
15:42:44 [paulo]
q+
15:42:48 [smiles]
pgroth: we want to define the set of concepts we want to use, need a process for this activity
15:43:34 [smiles]
... (process for wg, not in model)
15:43:44 [luc]
paul: explain what an issue is
15:43:54 [pgroth]
What term do we adopt for concept 'xxx' and how do we define it?"
15:44:13 [luc]
paul, please explain what an issue is
15:44:13 [smiles]
pgroth: raise an issue for each concept in the charter of form above
15:44:30 [ericstephan]
q+
15:44:33 [tlebo]
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/
15:44:39 [Zakim]
- +1.509.375.aaee
15:44:45 [smiles]
... an issue is something which can be raised in the tracker for discussion until resolution
15:44:57 [pgroth]
q-
15:45:02 [pgroth]
eric?
15:45:22 [ericstephan]
lost connection getting back on
15:45:27 [paulo]
q+
15:45:29 [Zakim]
+ +1.509.375.aaff
15:45:37 [smiles]
pgroth: initial set from charter, and if new concepts people can raise them as issues
15:45:41 [Zakim]
-jorn
15:45:43 [jorn]
zakim, aaff probably is ericstephan
15:45:43 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'aaff probably is ericstephan', jorn
15:45:44 [ericstephan]
q+ again sorry
15:45:56 [Zakim]
+??P14
15:46:07 [jorn]
zakim, ??P14 is me
15:46:08 [Zakim]
+jorn; got it
15:46:34 [jcheney]
"issue" is just the name for something the tracker tracks...
15:46:46 [smiles]
paulo: consider questions we have to be answered with model, as we may have concepts which are not answering any question
15:46:46 [luc]
paulo has got a point, we have a list of queries associated with the example
15:47:04 [luc]
a "w3c issue" is like a bug in bugzilla
15:47:35 [jcheney]
some of them might be uncontroversial and so "resolved" immediately.
15:48:13 [jorn]
zakim, aaff is probably ericstephan
15:48:13 [Zakim]
+ericstephan?; got it
15:48:18 [smiles]
luc: paulo is right that we do not want concepts not used in any queries, so we need to show how they are used to answer queries
15:48:25 [smiles]
... we have a list and need to extend it over time
15:48:48 [smiles]
PROPOSED: raise issue for discussing each concept
15:48:49 [satya]
for raising issue?
15:48:49 [simoninireland]
+1
15:48:49 [tlebo]
+1 using tracker
15:48:49 [Zakim]
-Yolanda
15:48:50 [dgarijo]
+1
15:48:51 [ericstephan]
+1
15:48:52 [satya]
+1
15:48:52 [jorn]
+1
15:48:53 [jcheney]
+1
15:48:53 [smiles]
+1
15:48:53 [GK]
+1
15:48:54 [jun]
+1
15:48:54 [DavidSchaengold]
+1
15:48:54 [zednik]
+1
15:48:54 [Altintas]
+1
15:48:55 [frew]
+1
15:48:55 [SamCoppens]
+1
15:48:56 [paulo]
q+
15:48:57 [Edoardo_and_David]
+1
15:48:58 [olaf]
+1
15:48:58 [khalidbelhajjame]
+1
15:49:00 [YogeshSimmhan]
+1
15:49:00 [jcheney]
q+
15:49:58 [smiles]
eric: can connection task force use these concepts to identify which groups they may pertain to?
15:50:25 [pgroth]
ack paulo
15:50:32 [pgroth]
ack eristephan
15:50:41 [pgroth]
q?
15:50:51 [smiles]
jcheney: when using issue tracker, there is a formal process for asking for comments from outside
15:51:20 [smiles]
... guidance says good to have examples to illustrate disagreements
15:51:30 [dgarijo]
ack ericstephan
15:51:31 [jcheney]
http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/policies.html#formal-address
15:51:34 [jcheney]
q-
15:52:06 [smiles]
RESOLVED: use issue tracking to discuss concept definitions
15:52:23 [tlebo]
wiki?
15:52:32 [smiles]
pgroth: how to suggest definitions?
15:52:34 [luc]
a wiki page per concept?
15:52:44 [tlebo]
+1
15:52:47 [zednik]
+1
15:52:52 [luc]
i don't think so
15:53:03 [Edoardo_and_David]
+1 a wiki page per concept
15:53:05 [ericstephan]
+1 luc's idea
15:53:07 [jorn]
+1
15:53:12 [smiles]
pgroth: once we have a wiki page per concept, then what?
15:53:13 [satya]
+1 for wiki page
15:53:15 [tlebo]
q+
15:53:16 [luc]
so, when we raise an issue, we also create the corresponding wiki page
15:53:22 [olaf]
+1
15:53:29 [satya]
Create a definition for the concept
15:53:35 [jun]
+1
15:53:41 [SamCoppens]
+1
15:53:45 [GK]
q+ to suggest that someone familiar with W3C support tools should make proposal (on list, with links) then have us throw rocks at it?
15:53:47 [smiles]
tlebo: use wiki to represent current definition, have wiki link as part of the tracker (issue)
15:53:57 [dgarijo]
+1
15:53:58 [jorn]
there are history links in the wiki, aren't they? so use them in emails?
15:53:59 [Altintas]
+1
15:54:11 [luc]
q+
15:54:12 [satya]
from the XG final report?
15:54:16 [luc]
ack again
15:54:18 [luc]
ack sorry
15:54:20 [smiles]
pgroth: how to get first set of definitions?
15:54:24 [luc]
q+
15:54:59 [smiles]
GK: maybe more productive for someone familiar with W3C tooling put something initial together
15:55:35 [ericstephan]
ericstephan has joined #prov
15:55:43 [GK]
q-
15:55:47 [smiles]
luc: proposal of inviting submitting definitions is good, but some definitions may be mutually dependent, so need mechanism to cross-ref definitions
15:55:51 [luc]
q-
15:55:53 [satya]
a note on the wiki page of the concept to cross-reference?
15:56:23 [Zakim]
-??P3
15:56:28 [smiles]
PROPOSED: idea is everyone allowed to submit own definitions, then merge
15:56:29 [GK]
q+ to suggest suggested definitions should be grounded in example
15:56:37 [luc]
or is better to put one proposal, which get discussed?
15:56:44 [tlebo]
concept references within a definition can link via wiki link.
15:56:58 [smiles]
GK: in asking people to submit, could ask that grounded in example?
15:57:04 [dgarijo]
+1
15:57:32 [smiles]
pgroth: (agree with GK, add to proposal above)
15:57:43 [satya]
+ 1 for proposal 1
15:57:51 [smiles]
pgroth: alternative proposal to start with one definition, and edit (based on example)
15:57:55 [luc]
... or prposed alternative definition
15:57:56 [tlebo]
multiple working definitions could be placed onto the same concept's wiki page
15:57:57 [GK]
q+ point of order: proposals not mutually exclusive?
15:58:53 [tlebo]
what percentage of the working group can edit the wiki?
15:58:54 [smiles]
GK: just suggesting that whatever process used, ground in example
15:58:59 [luc]
q+
15:59:25 [jcheney]
+q
15:59:25 [GK]
q-
15:59:27 [luc]
q-
15:59:33 [pgroth]
ack tlebo
15:59:36 [smiles]
luc: maybe difficult to come up with initial definitions - instead paraphrase something rather than formal definition
16:00:04 [smiles]
jcheney: formal or informal definitions?
16:00:11 [paulo]
q+
16:00:16 [zednik]
+1 informal
16:00:20 [jcheney]
q-
16:00:23 [jorn]
+1 for informal first...
16:00:25 [Zakim]
-??P42
16:00:32 [dgarijo]
+1 to informal
16:00:33 [luc]
q+
16:00:34 [tlebo]
re: formality, have both rdfs/owl statements and inform descriptions on same wiki page for the concept?
16:00:52 [smiles]
paulo: agree on distinction between informal and formal definitions (are informal definitions actually definitions?)
16:01:23 [Zakim]
-jorn
16:01:28 [smiles]
luc: half of wg did not belong to incubator, we are first trying to build a shared vocabulary
16:01:36 [GK]
+1 to building shared vocabulary
16:01:48 [pgroth]
pgroth has left #prov
16:01:53 [Zakim]
+??P62
16:01:58 [pgroth]
pgroth has joined #prov
16:02:00 [zednik]
+1 to building shared vocabularly
16:02:06 [jorn]
Zakim, ??p62 is me
16:02:06 [Zakim]
+jorn; got it
16:02:06 [smiles]
... starting with a formal definition is not helping, informal definition using paraphrasing, examples, graphical notation is better
16:02:19 [olaf]
+1 for proposal 1 with informal definitions
16:02:28 [jun]
+ informal
16:02:30 [dgarijo]
+1
16:02:30 [jcheney]
+1
16:02:31 [jorn]
+1
16:02:31 [zednik]
+1
16:02:31 [tlebo]
+1 formal +1 informal
16:02:33 [ericstephan]
+1
16:02:33 [frew]
+1
16:02:34 [satya]
+1 for informal
16:02:35 [Edoardo_and_David]
+1
16:02:36 [pgroth]
proposal for information to start
16:02:38 [smiles]
pgroth: informal definitions to start?
16:02:39 [smiles]
+1
16:02:41 [khalidbelhajjame]
+1
16:02:43 [paolo]
+1 informal
16:02:44 [dgarijo]
+1 informal
16:02:44 [DavidSchaengold]
+1 for informal
16:02:45 [GK]
+1 start informal, build shared vocab
16:02:46 [CarlOGC]
+1
16:02:48 [YogeshSimmhan]
+1
16:02:48 [Altintas]
+1
16:02:50 [SamCoppens]
+1
16:02:54 [Altintas]
or informal
16:03:28 [Zakim]
-frew
16:03:32 [smiles]
pgroth: will set up web pages for concepts, task for defining concepts
16:03:32 [Zakim]
-jun
16:03:34 [Zakim]
-SatyaSahoo
16:03:35 [Zakim]
-ericstephan?
16:03:36 [Zakim]
- +1.518.276.aaaa
16:03:39 [Zakim]
-jcheney
16:03:41 [Zakim]
-DavidSchaengold
16:03:42 [paolo]
paolo has left #prov
16:03:43 [Zakim]
-khalidbelhajjame
16:03:45 [Zakim]
-dgarijo
16:03:47 [Zakim]
- +1.858.210.aabb
16:03:49 [Zakim]
-olaf
16:03:51 [Zakim]
-Yogesh
16:03:53 [Zakim]
-paolo_
16:03:55 [Zakim]
-zednik
16:03:57 [Zakim]
-VinhNguyen
16:04:01 [Zakim]
-luc
16:04:01 [smiles]
rrsagent, set log public
16:04:03 [Zakim]
-GK
16:04:04 [ericstephan]
Yes Zakim?
16:04:07 [Zakim]
-paulo
16:04:07 [pgroth]
pgroth has left #prov
16:04:09 [Zakim]
-??P35
16:04:11 [smiles]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-minutes.html smiles
16:04:15 [Zakim]
-tlebo
16:04:17 [Zakim]
-??P4
16:04:17 [luc]
thanks simon
16:04:21 [Zakim]
-??P17
16:04:27 [Zakim]
-pgroth
16:04:28 [smiles]
trackbot, end telcon
16:04:28 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
16:04:29 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been pgroth, luc, smiles, +1.518.276.aaaa, DavidSchaengold, +1.858.210.aabb, jorn, tlebo, +1.805.893.aacc, dgarijo, SatyaSahoo, paolo_, olaf,
16:04:29 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:04:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/19-prov-minutes.html trackbot
16:04:30 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
16:04:30 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items
16:04:32 [Zakim]
... +1.518.633.aadd, Yogesh, jun, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, zednik, Yolanda, SamCoppens, frew, GK, VinhNguyen, paulo, +1.509.375.aaee, +1.509.375.aaff, ericstephan?