IRC log of pf on 2011-05-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:59:46 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #pf
15:59:46 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-pf-irc
15:59:51 [janina]
zakim, this will be pf
15:59:51 [Zakim]
ok, janina, I see WAI_PF()12:00PM already started
16:00:00 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
16:00:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.512.255.aaaa, ??P36
16:00:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, SallyC, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
16:01:16 [janina]
zakim, ??P36 is Janina
16:01:16 [Zakim]
+Janina; got it
16:01:28 [Zakim]
+ +44.121.665.aabb
16:01:30 [janina]
zakim, +aaaa is Mary_Joe
16:01:30 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named '+aaaa'
16:01:51 [janina]
zakim, +1.512.255.aaaa is Mary_Joe
16:01:51 [Zakim]
+Mary_Joe; got it
16:01:51 [SallyC]
zakim, +44 is SallyC
16:01:53 [Zakim]
+SallyC; got it
16:02:38 [janina]
zakim, +44.121.665.aabb is Sally
16:02:38 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not recognize a party named '+44.121.665.aabb'
16:03:20 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
16:03:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mary_Joe, Janina, SallyC
16:03:21 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, SallyC, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
16:04:49 [janina]
regrets: Tim_Boland, Gottfried_Zimmerman
16:05:03 [janina]
Meeting: PFWG telecon
16:05:03 [janina]
Chair: Janina_Sajka
16:05:03 [janina]
agenda: this
16:05:03 [janina]
agenda+ identify scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List
16:05:03 [janina]
agenda+ preview agenda with items from two minutes
16:05:04 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/open
16:05:06 [janina]
agenda+ new on TR http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-status-drafts.html#tr_LCWD
16:05:08 [janina]
agenda+ HTML 5 Longdesc Reconsideration http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0419.html
16:05:10 [janina]
agenda+ HTML 5 Last Call WBS http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/html5-last-call-poll/
16:05:12 [janina]
agenda+ Does PF Approve HTML 5 Last Call? http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html#coordination
16:05:14 [janina]
agenda+ Points of Interest FPWD http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-pf-chairs-minutes.html#item10
16:05:16 [janina]
agenda+ Realtime Communications CFP http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2011AprJun/0032.html
16:05:18 [janina]
agenda+ Role Module: Is anything testable?
16:05:20 [janina]
agenda+ ARIA.Next? http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-pf-chairs-minutes.html#item04
16:05:22 [janina]
agenda+ Scheduling UAIG Review
16:05:24 [janina]
agenda+ ARIA: Bridge or A11y Core? http://www.w3.org/2011/05/06-pf-minutes
16:05:26 [janina]
agenda+ Organizing Intentional Events agenda+ CSS Haptic/Braille
16:05:28 [janina]
agenda+ Other Task Force Reports & Issues
16:05:30 [janina]
agenda+ New Business
16:05:32 [janina]
agenda+ next and future meetings http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_273
16:05:34 [janina]
agenda+ be done
16:05:50 [Andi]
Andi has joined #pf
16:06:06 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland
16:06:12 [Zakim]
+Andi_Snow-Weaver
16:06:56 [SallyC]
zakim, who's here?
16:06:56 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mary_Joe, Janina, SallyC, Tim_Boland, Andi_Snow-Weaver
16:06:57 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
16:06:58 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Andi, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, SallyC, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
16:06:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mary_Joe, Janina, SallyC, Tim_Boland, Andi_Snow-Weaver
16:07:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Andi, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, SallyC, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
16:08:48 [SallyC]
Scribe: SallyC
16:09:48 [SallyC]
+ two minutes
16:10:12 [SallyC]
JS: Skip action items as we are small
16:10:17 [SallyC]
in attendance
16:10:38 [SallyC]
JS: And skip new last calls. We can be confident there is nothing there
16:11:21 [SallyC]
JS: Publication of several HTML 5 documents for next week
16:11:53 [SallyC]
JS: Longdesc and if we think html 5 is ready for last call and the poll are related to that
16:12:26 [SallyC]
+ HTML 5 Longdesc Reconsideration http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0419.html
16:12:54 [janina]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011May/0419.html
16:12:57 [SallyC]
JS: to reconsider reinstating longdesc
16:14:04 [SallyC]
JS: the text subteam met and unanimously approved this request in a resolution. Also approved a resolution should last call be published without longdesc in the spec then there would be support for a formal complaint to the director to hold
16:14:25 [SallyC]
JS: We do have a consensus document in the taskforce which is quite old.
16:14:55 [SallyC]
JS: It does not mention anything about where the sub teams fit as we hadn't realised that is where most of the work would get done in subteams
16:15:11 [SallyC]
JS: Procedural things happen in the task force
16:16:06 [Zakim]
+ +1.720.342.aacc
16:16:11 [SallyC]
JS: Consensus procedures reflect expectations on where we started not where we are now. However it raises the prospect of questioning this statement.
16:16:42 [richardschwerdtfe]
can you hear me?
16:17:03 [SallyC]
JS: We will put this to a vote in the taskforce vote. Assuming it is approved, either one of the resolutions then there would be a survey for three working days for people to comment on the topic
16:17:05 [richardschwerdtfe]
k
16:17:37 [richardschwerdtfe]
will call back in
16:17:46 [Zakim]
- +1.720.342.aacc
16:18:02 [Zakim]
+Rich
16:20:13 [Zakim]
-Tim_Boland
16:20:24 [SallyC]
JS: Any questions?
16:20:34 [SallyC]
RS: They want us to vote again?
16:20:44 [SallyC]
JS: Yes! On call and the survey
16:20:58 [MaryJo]
MaryJo has joined #PF
16:21:44 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
16:22:01 [SallyC]
RS: I haven't looked at the overall voting on going to last call, but to me parts are incomplete.
16:22:07 [SallyC]
JS: Yes this is to discuss
16:22:57 [SallyC]
CS: will save my comments on content for tomorrow
16:23:17 [SallyC]
+ HTML 5 Last Call WBS http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/html5-last-call-poll/
16:23:46 [SallyC]
JS: The question is 8 different documents or so. Are each of them ready or not for last call publication
16:24:04 [SallyC]
RS: What does it look like
16:24:19 [SallyC]
SC: Last time I looked there were mostly yes or one or two abstein
16:24:24 [janina]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/html5-last-call-poll/
16:24:45 [cyns]
cyns has joined #pf
16:25:00 [SallyC]
RS: Usually I would expect it to be a real working draft and then move to a last call. I think there are things missing
16:25:27 [SallyC]
JS: There is the poll and the next agendum is if we believe it should be published
16:25:41 [SallyC]
+ Does PF Approve HTML 5 Last Call? http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html#coordination
16:25:51 [janina]
HTML Charter Dependencies at:
16:25:53 [janina]
http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html#coordination
16:26:27 [SallyC]
This lists the working groups that HTML is required to interact with and they should have advised us formally if they were going to do this publication
16:27:11 [SallyC]
JS: We do have a say in whether we think this is ready as PF and as individuals if we are in the taskforce
16:28:17 [SallyC]
JS: There is a call scheduled with Tim tomorrow to discuss the formal objection which has come up regarding longdesc. Sam posted how he saw some of the issues.
16:28:43 [SallyC]
JS: He thought management needed to make a decision on how to proceed
16:29:23 [SallyC]
JS: It wasn't so much that any particular feature was or wasn't in the spec, but what the document is, will it be called feature complete.
16:29:35 [SallyC]
JS: to us it is clear that not everything is in the spec.
16:30:04 [SallyC]
JS: Great chunk that is missing is the older settled technology and possibly not controversial any longer.
16:30:52 [SallyC]
JS: It is important to the reputation of the organisation and of accessibility and if it is not feature complete then say so. Could we flag things that are missing?
16:31:34 [SallyC]
JS: Could annotate what is missing and link to discussion and show it as an in process specification. But they want more feedback and on accessibility
16:31:39 [richardschwerdtfe]
+1
16:31:48 [richardschwerdtfe]
sorry Q+
16:31:52 [richardschwerdtfe]
q+
16:32:11 [janina]
ack r
16:33:02 [SallyC]
RS: Canvas - we have a decision and the chairs made a decision but there were a couple of things that were left out. They related to 508. We were asked to raise these but nothing happened
16:33:33 [SallyC]
RS: We are missing is ability to provide bounds of an object so you can map it to an a11y API
16:33:54 [SallyC]
RS: The technical solution to this is going to take a little longer.
16:34:25 [SallyC]
RS: I put this to the list and I provided use cases
16:34:45 [SallyC]
RS: When they say this is a 'last call document' ie all major features are there. I don't think it is.
16:34:48 [Andi]
q+
16:35:00 [SallyC]
RS: I think we need to say we need a thorough review of the document
16:35:23 [SallyC]
RS: Does anyone disagree?
16:35:47 [SallyC]
CS: It is sometimes a good idea to go to last call with open issues - wcag did.
16:35:58 [SallyC]
CS: We can state up front what some of the issues are
16:36:09 [SallyC]
RS: I need to make sure that is the purpose of this release
16:36:23 [SallyC]
RS: It is not clear in the survey
16:36:27 [SallyC]
CS: I would not be
16:36:34 [SallyC]
CS: it would not be
16:36:52 [Andi]
s/I would not be//
16:37:47 [SallyC]
RS: If they say we have issues and log issues that are remaining
16:37:53 [SallyC]
JS: Test a consensus
16:38:26 [SallyC]
JS: OK to publish even if they call it 'last call' as long as they say it is not feature complete for accessibility and we would want some things specifically listed
16:39:02 [SallyC]
ASW: They seem to have a lot of bugs open
16:39:22 [SallyC]
ASW: It would seem odd to go to last call with so many bugs open
16:40:16 [SallyC]
JS: There is canvas, there is media
16:40:35 [SallyC]
JS: There is still work to do
16:40:44 [SallyC]
JS: What about other areas?
16:41:04 [SallyC]
JS: Are ARIA mappings done
16:41:09 [SallyC]
RS: not concrete
16:41:52 [SallyC]
RS: in longdesc proposal we have added new requirements.
16:42:51 [SallyC]
RS: They are good requirements, for example user agent being able to identify longdesc areas.
16:43:28 [SallyC]
RS: We can agree in general that we are not feature complete.
16:44:08 [SallyC]
RS: I am going to reopen an issue after last call as there are some discussions that have not been had
16:45:54 [SallyC]
JS: We put the issue out for 48 hours before we declare a consensus. I think I can put out on the list
16:47:40 [SallyC]
ASW: any areas that still have significant issues and disagreement should be flagged by editorial notes
16:48:08 [SallyC]
JS: I will do this after the call to see if we have consensus by Friday.
16:48:28 [SallyC]
JS: Taskforce meeting will include the two items from the text alternatives meeting
16:48:54 [cyns]
cyns has joined #pf
16:49:13 [Andi]
s/editorial notes/inline editorial notes/
16:50:52 [SallyC]
JS: We have been offered to flag inline and this will get more people looking at it and commenting on it which is valuable
16:51:12 [SallyC]
RS: Problem is we probably won't be able to get the inline edits by Friday though
16:51:33 [SallyC]
JS: The vote is due on Sunday and they want to publish on tues
16:52:16 [Zakim]
-SallyC
16:52:34 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
16:52:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mary_Joe, Janina, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Rich, Cynthia_Shelly
16:52:36 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cyns, MaryJo, Andi, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, richardschwerdtfe, trackbot
16:52:52 [Andi]
scribe: Andi
16:53:22 [Andi]
JS: individual ability because of our participation in the HTML WG - should do so and not hold back
16:53:41 [Andi]
JS: also charter dependency HTML has on PF - get to have a formal opinion
16:54:00 [Andi]
JS: this formal opinion is what I'll be sending out the 48 hour call for
16:54:15 [Andi]
CS: can we get the spec text ready? don't want to delay them
16:54:25 [Andi]
CS: if they say yes, we should be ready to provide them
16:54:39 [Andi]
JS: we should have the list tomorrow on the HTML task force meeting
16:54:51 [Andi]
JS: do we need to schedule another meeting or can we do it via e-mail?
16:55:05 [Andi]
CS: e-mail. Can everyone send their favorite issue to the PF list?
16:55:19 [Andi]
CS: and include the text of the editorial note
16:55:27 [Andi]
RS: no section for canvas yet
16:55:36 [Andi]
CS: probably should go at the top of the canvas section
16:55:46 [Andi]
JS: canvas note could include pointer to issue 131
16:56:09 [Andi]
CS: never seen links in editorial notes - seems okay - but might not be allowed
16:57:03 [Andi]
RS: like for Cynthia and Steve to go through section 3.2.6 to make sure it's all okay
16:57:18 [Andi]
RS: one example - still don't have text on how to process ARIA attributes
16:57:29 [Andi]
JS: it's our fault but it still should be there
16:57:43 [Andi]
JS: make sure that what we think is in the spec is actually there
16:58:03 [richardschwerdtfe]
thanks
16:58:14 [Zakim]
-Rich
16:58:17 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
16:58:17 [Andi]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-pf-minutes.html Andi
16:58:18 [Zakim]
-Janina
16:58:19 [Zakim]
-Mary_Joe
16:58:25 [Zakim]
-Andi_Snow-Weaver
16:58:27 [Zakim]
WAI_PF()12:00PM has ended
16:58:28 [Zakim]
Attendees were Janina, +44.121.665.aabb, Mary_Joe, SallyC, Tim_Boland, Andi_Snow-Weaver, +1.720.342.aacc, Rich, Cynthia_Shelly
16:58:34 [Andi]
zakim, bye
16:58:38 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #pf
16:58:58 [Andi]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-pf-minutes.html Andi
17:00:43 [Andi]
rrsagent, make logs public
17:00:49 [Andi]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:00:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/18-pf-minutes.html Andi
17:04:32 [Andi]
Andi has left #pf