IRC log of webevents on 2011-05-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:58:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webevents
14:58:34 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-irc
14:58:41 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log public
14:58:53 [ArtB]
ScribeNick: ArtB
14:58:53 [ArtB]
Scribe: Art
14:58:53 [ArtB]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0092.html
14:58:53 [ArtB]
Date: 10 May 2011
14:58:53 [ArtB]
Chair: Art
14:58:53 [ArtB]
Meeting: Web Events WG Voice Conference
14:59:37 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.792.aabb
14:59:42 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, aabb is me
14:59:42 [Zakim]
+mbrubeck; got it
15:00:14 [ArtB]
Present: Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Doug_Schepers, Josh_Soref
15:00:52 [Zakim]
+??P9
15:01:03 [smaug]
Zakim, ??P9 is Olli_Pettay
15:01:03 [Zakim]
+Olli_Pettay; got it
15:01:08 [ArtB]
Present+ Olli_Pettay
15:01:12 [smaug]
Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
15:01:12 [Zakim]
ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
15:01:54 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, nick mbrubeck is Matt_Brubeck
15:01:54 [Zakim]
sorry, mbrubeck, I do not see a party named 'Matt_Brubeck'
15:02:19 [ArtB]
zakim, aabb is Matt_Brubeck
15:02:19 [Zakim]
sorry, ArtB, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
15:02:46 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.266.aacc
15:03:03 [Zakim]
- +1.781.266.aacc
15:03:14 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, mbrubeck is Matt_Brubeck
15:03:14 [Zakim]
+Matt_Brubeck; got it
15:03:19 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, nick mbrubeck is Matt_Brubeck
15:03:19 [Zakim]
ok, mbrubeck, I now associate you with Matt_Brubeck
15:03:29 [Zakim]
+ +1.781.266.aadd
15:03:45 [ArtB]
Present+ Cathy_Chan
15:04:05 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, aadd is Cathy_Chan
15:04:05 [Zakim]
+Cathy_Chan; got it
15:04:13 [smaug]
Oops, I had muted my speaker, not microphone
15:04:34 [ArtB]
Topic: Tweak Agenda
15:04:40 [ArtB]
AB: I posted the draft agenda on May 6 ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0092.html ). Any change requests?
15:04:54 [ArtB]
[ None ]
15:05:00 [ArtB]
Topic: Short Announcements
15:05:06 [ArtB]
AB: FPWD published May 5; congratulations to the Editors and WG ( http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-touch-events-20110505/ ). Any other short annoucements?
15:05:35 [Zakim]
+Cathy_Chan.a
15:06:13 [ArtB]
AB: FYI, Josh is no longer employed by Nokia
15:06:43 [ArtB]
Topic: Object Identity
15:06:49 [ArtB]
AB: on April 26, Matt Brubeck sent an e-mail re Object Identity ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0068.html ). The only person that responded was Olli.
15:07:03 [ArtB]
AB: what do others think; what do we do about Object Identity; is there some spec'ing that needs to be done?
15:07:40 [ArtB]
MB: I don't have a strong opinion
15:07:46 [ArtB]
... but web devs have talked about it
15:07:59 [ArtB]
... I think we should at least get an opinion
15:08:09 [ArtB]
... We may not have to specify anything here
15:08:20 [ArtB]
... but OTOH, if there is consensus to spec something then we should
15:09:05 [ArtB]
OP: I wonder why WebKit might be changing their behavior
15:09:10 [ArtB]
... would like to understand that
15:09:16 [Zakim]
-Cathy_Chan
15:09:24 [ArtB]
... QuirksMode indicated WebKit will change
15:09:35 [ArtB]
MB: WK is a bit diff than my examples
15:10:07 [ArtB]
s/WK/WebKit/
15:10:21 [ArtB]
OP: we need to discuss this with someone who is implementing this in WebKit
15:10:33 [ArtB]
... need to know if they are reusing their Touch objects
15:10:53 [ArtB]
MB: agree we need more feedback from implementors
15:11:04 [ArtB]
... until then, I think the spec should remain silent
15:11:11 [ArtB]
OP: perhaps someone from Nokia can find out
15:11:12 [Zakim]
+Doug_Schepers
15:11:38 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow follow up with Laszlo re Object Identity implementation in WebKit
15:11:39 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-46 - Follow up with Laszlo re Object Identity implementation in WebKit [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-05-17].
15:12:15 [ArtB]
ISSUE: Should the spec be silent or prescriptive re Object Identity
15:12:15 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-16 - Should the spec be silent or prescriptive re Object Identity ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/16/edit .
15:12:42 [ArtB]
Topic: preventDefault Research;
15:12:50 [ArtB]
AB: on April 26 Matt sent an e-mail regarding some research he did on preventDefault ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0069.html ). Andrew Grieve and Matt had some additional responses.
15:13:09 [ArtB]
AB: is there some additional spec'ing that needs to be done?
15:13:41 [ArtB]
MB: Andrew suggested a simple fix
15:13:50 [ArtB]
... I don' think there were any objections to that
15:14:04 [ArtB]
... Another open issue if spec should say something about scrolling
15:14:30 [ArtB]
... It would be useful for implementors
15:14:39 [ArtB]
... I'll make a proposal about preventing scrolling
15:14:51 [ArtB]
... Probably in terms of May or Should rather than Must requirements
15:15:30 [ArtB]
ACTION: brubeck submit a proposal for re scrolling and the preventDefault research thread
15:15:30 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-47 - Submit a proposal for re scrolling and the preventDefault research thread [on Matt Brubeck - due 2011-05-17].
15:16:32 [ArtB]
Topic: Issue-3 - Click event target after DOM mutation during touchstart
15:16:40 [ArtB]
AB: Issue-3 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/3 ) was opened weeks ago. There was some recent follow-up by Sangwhan and Andrew ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0081.html ). Doug has related Action-23 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/23 ).
15:17:19 [ArtB]
AB: who can take the lead here and make a proposal?
15:17:42 [shepazu]
Action-23?
15:17:42 [trackbot]
ACTION-23 -- Doug Schepers to follow-up on Issue-3 -- due 2011-03-29 -- OPEN
15:17:42 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/23
15:18:43 [ArtB]
DS: I don't see a way around this issue
15:19:11 [ArtB]
... I have some behavior defined for Activiate in the DOM 3 Events spec
15:19:16 [ArtB]
... We could borrow some of that
15:19:25 [ArtB]
... But if someone wants to help, that's fine
15:19:50 [ArtB]
MB: our initial Gecko implementation behaves the same way as Android an iPhone
15:20:06 [ArtB]
AB: that's quite a bit of synergy
15:20:08 [mbrubeck]
s/ an / and /
15:20:41 [ArtB]
AB: are there any volunteers to help here?
15:20:54 [ArtB]
... Doug, we'll wait for your input here
15:21:25 [ArtB]
DS: I can propose something by the end of today
15:21:56 [ArtB]
... We need to decide if this is a Should or a Must
15:22:11 [ArtB]
MB: we already addressed touchstart and default actions and click
15:22:21 [ArtB]
... this is about what to do if DOM changes
15:22:38 [ArtB]
DS: I need to take a look at this
15:23:25 [ArtB]
AB: ok, so the status of Issue-3 is we will wait for Doug to complete action-23
15:23:35 [ArtB]
... If anyone wants to help, please do so
15:24:02 [ArtB]
MB: the reason Gecko behaves as it does is because we wait for touch to end before simulate up/down events
15:24:17 [ArtB]
... all of those events occur in the DOM after the touch sequence
15:24:53 [ArtB]
Topic: Issue-6 - Touch targets in frames
15:25:02 [ArtB]
AB: Issue-6 was raised by Andrew last February ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/6 ). Doug has related Action-24 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/24 ). The last discussion was February 22 ( http://www.w3.org/2011/02/22-webevents-minutes.html#item08 ).
15:25:40 [ArtB]
DS: I need to send an e-mail about this
15:26:01 [ArtB]
AB: is this a relatively straight fwd proposal?
15:26:11 [ArtB]
DS: would like to know what WebKit and Gecko do
15:26:18 [ArtB]
... need to consider security here
15:27:01 [ArtB]
MB: need to be careful here
15:27:06 [ArtB]
... don't want any data leaking
15:27:56 [ArtB]
DS: also could observe a pattern of how the user is moving on the larger outside page
15:28:01 [ArtB]
... and where the iframe is
15:28:16 [ArtB]
MB: if you can trick the user in a specific way, can get some data on the user
15:29:11 [ArtB]
AB: so Doug, you are OK with the way iOS and Android handle this?
15:29:16 [ArtB]
DS: basically, yes
15:29:37 [ArtB]
AB: so how do we close this?
15:29:47 [ArtB]
DS: just need an Editor to add the text
15:29:50 [ArtB]
MB: I can do that
15:29:56 [ArtB]
AB: that would be great Matt
15:30:27 [ArtB]
ACTION: brubeck propose text to address Issue-6 (routing to the child iframe)
15:30:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-48 - Propose text to address Issue-6 (routing to the child iframe) [on Matt Brubeck - due 2011-05-17].
15:31:01 [ArtB]
Topic: Issue-8 - initTouchEvent function
15:31:14 [ArtB]
AB: Issue-8 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/8 ) was created in March. Olli has related Action-34 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/34 ) and Doug has related Action-36 ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/actions/36 ). The last time we discussed this was during the April 12 call ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/att-0039/WebEvents-min-12-Apr-2011.html#issue-8 ).
15:31:39 [ArtB]
AB: this method is already defined in the spec. What else needs to be specified?
15:32:01 [ArtB]
MB: I committed a proposal
15:32:08 [ArtB]
... there is one open sub-issue
15:32:12 [ArtB]
... it is noted in the spec
15:32:18 [ArtB]
... re the arguments of this method
15:32:48 [ArtB]
... it take page x and 'y' and client x and 'y'
15:33:00 [ArtB]
... Think we can close Issue-8
15:33:22 [timeless_xchat]
s/take/takes/
15:33:26 [ArtB]
... and open a new issue
15:33:33 [ArtB]
AB: any objections to that?
15:33:50 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow move issue-8 to the closed state
15:33:50 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-49 - Move issue-8 to the closed state [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-05-17].
15:34:29 [ArtB]
ISSUE: page x and 'y' paramters to create touch
15:34:29 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-17 - Page x and 'y' paramters to create touch ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/track/issues/17/edit .
15:35:01 [timeless_xchat]
s/paramters/parameters/
15:35:08 [ArtB]
MB: I started a thread on this issue
15:35:45 [mbrubeck]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011AprJun/0078.html
15:36:34 [ArtB]
MB: we should take issue-17 to the list
15:37:15 [ArtB]
OP: Gecko and Webkit aren't aligned here
15:38:48 [smaug]
Currently Gecko doesn't compute clientX/Y values automatically from pageX/Y, like webkit does
15:38:51 [ArtB]
[ Scribe missed some details exchanged between Olli and Matt ...]
15:38:59 [mbrubeck]
The spec (which is based on what Olli implemented in Gecko) is written to allow backward compatibility with WebKit/Safari, while also allowing consistency with mouse events.
15:39:23 [mbrubeck]
If we keep the API in the spec, we should specify that if pageX/Y are null, then they will be computed based on clientX/Y, and vice-versa.
15:39:46 [ArtB]
AB: thanks Olli and Matt for embellishing the minutes!
15:39:51 [mbrubeck]
Or we could simplify the spec and make it work like mouse events (breaking compatibility with content that uses the current WebKit API).
15:40:21 [ArtB]
MB: I will make a proposal on the list
15:40:44 [ArtB]
ACTION: brubeck make a proposal to address Issue-17
15:40:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-50 - Make a proposal to address Issue-17 [on Matt Brubeck - due 2011-05-17].
15:41:27 [ArtB]
Topic: High-level Intensional Event Spec
15:42:07 [ArtB]
AB: I am interested in expectations, plans and such
15:42:09 [timeless_xchat]
s/Intensional/Intentional/
15:42:13 [ArtB]
DS: I have some information
15:44:29 [ArtB]
... Apple made a proposal to Web Apps WG
15:44:45 [ArtB]
... for the Procols and Formats WG
15:44:57 [ArtB]
... to add some a11y features to D3E
15:45:11 [timeless_xchat]
s/Procols/Protocols/
15:45:24 [ArtB]
... Decided a joint deliverable between Web Events and WAI WG would be a good way to move fwd
15:46:16 [ArtB]
AB: is James' earlier proposal public?
15:46:33 [shepazu]
James Craig is working on the "Independence for User Interface" (IndieUI) proposal
15:46:51 [ArtB]
AB: James' proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html
15:47:50 [ArtB]
AB: is P&F WG working on this IndieUI spec?
15:48:10 [ArtB]
DS: no, I don't think so yet; but expect it or something like it will be
15:48:28 [ArtB]
... not sure about its priority, especially with ARIA
15:49:23 [ArtB]
AB: so is the IndieUI going to be the Intentional Events spec we are chartered to do?
15:49:33 [ArtB]
DS: yes, that is my expectation
15:49:48 [ArtB]
... in cooperation with the P&F WG
15:50:36 [ArtB]
... I will notify Web Events WG when there is something to review
15:51:19 [ArtB]
AB: getting early access to a draft, would be very useful
15:51:48 [ArtB]
DS: I will convey that to him
15:51:50 [shepazu]
Recommended these resources: [1] http://dev.w3.org/2009/dap/ReSpec.js/documentation.html [2] http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/spec-conventions.html [3] http://dev.w3.org/2008/dev-ind-testing/extracting-test-assertions-pub.html
15:51:51 [ArtB]
AB: ok; thanks
15:53:10 [ArtB]
DS: If James follows these conventions, the spec should be similar in format to what we are already doing
15:53:33 [ArtB]
... Need a way for author to map from low-level to high-level intentional events
15:53:49 [ArtB]
... I can contact the related paper from the IETF
15:54:06 [ArtB]
AB: I think you mean GISpL http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-echtler-gispl-specification-00
15:54:34 [ArtB]
DS: may need a separate event listener
15:54:51 [ArtB]
... needs some more thinking
15:55:07 [ArtB]
... event types and a range of values
15:55:27 [ArtB]
... register for some event with a set of params
15:55:38 [Zakim]
-Matt_Brubeck
15:55:49 [ArtB]
... and the listener would get some set of values for the registered params
15:56:17 [ArtB]
DS: I think I should send an e-mail about this
15:56:42 [ArtB]
... there could be a more elegant solution
15:57:23 [timeless_xchat]
s/contact/get/
15:57:35 [ArtB]
Topic: AoB
15:57:43 [ArtB]
AB: no call next on May 17
15:57:49 [ArtB]
... next call will be May 24
15:57:58 [ArtB]
AB: any other topics for today?
15:58:10 [ArtB]
AB: meeting adjourned
15:58:16 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:58:16 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
15:58:17 [Zakim]
-Olli_Pettay
15:58:19 [Zakim]
-Doug_Schepers
15:58:21 [Zakim]
-Art_Barstow
15:58:25 [Zakim]
-Cathy_Chan.a
15:58:25 [Zakim]
RWC_WebEven()11:00AM has ended
15:58:27 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.781.993.aaaa, Art_Barstow, +1.206.792.aabb, Olli_Pettay, +1.781.266.aacc, Matt_Brubeck, +1.781.266.aadd, Cathy_Chan, Doug_Schepers
15:58:38 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log Public
15:58:44 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:58:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:11:42 [ArtB]
zakim, bye
16:11:42 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #webevents
16:12:29 [ArtB]
rrsagent, bye
16:12:29 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-actions.rdf :
16:12:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow follow up with Laszlo re Object Identity implementation in WebKit [1]
16:12:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-irc#T15-11-38
16:12:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: brubeck submit a proposal for re scrolling and the preventDefault research thread [2]
16:12:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-irc#T15-15-30
16:12:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: brubeck propose text to address Issue-6 (routing to the child iframe) [3]
16:12:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-irc#T15-30-27
16:12:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow move issue-8 to the closed state [4]
16:12:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-irc#T15-33-50
16:12:29 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: brubeck make a proposal to address Issue-17 [5]
16:12:29 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-webevents-irc#T15-40-44