15:57:28 RRSAgent has joined #ua 15:57:28 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc 15:57:30 RRSAgent, make logs public 15:57:30 Zakim has joined #ua 15:57:32 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 15:57:32 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 15:57:33 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 15:57:33 Date: 28 April 2011 15:59:06 zakim, room for 6 now? 15:59:07 I don't understand your question, jeanne. 15:59:20 zakim, is there room for 6 people? 15:59:22 ok, jeanne; conference Team_(ua)15:59Z scheduled with code 82942 (uawg2) for 60 minutes until 1659Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked 15:59:49 JAllan has joined #ua 16:01:21 temporary zakim code 82942 16:01:22 Jan has joined #ua 16:01:32 temporary zakim code 82942 16:01:39 thx 16:01:56 Team_(ua)15:59Z has now started 16:02:03 +JAllan 16:02:22 +Jeanne 16:02:23 +??P38 16:02:31 zakim, this will be WAI_UA 16:02:31 ok, jeanne; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 58 minutes 16:02:33 Greg has joined #ua 16:02:35 zakim, ??P38 is really Jan 16:03:13 kford has joined #ua 16:03:24 Zakim has joined #ua 16:03:50 kelly, new code temporary zakim code 82942 16:04:20 zakim, code? 16:04:20 sorry, kford, I don't know what conference this is 16:04:23 sharper has joined #ua 16:05:19 zakim, code? 16:05:19 sorry, sharper, I don't know what conference this is 16:05:34 new code temporary zakim code 82942 16:06:14 rrsagent, make minutes 16:06:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html jeanne 16:06:37 chair: Jim Allan 16:08:08 Agenda+ Review proposed changes to Focus & Keyboard 16:08:10 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Guideline_2.7 16:08:24 Agenda+ EIR creation for GL 2.8 [tool bars] 16:08:26 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110406/#gl-configure-controls 16:08:36 Agenda+ EIR for GL 2.9 Provide control of content that may reduce 16:08:38 accessibility [mostly media] 16:08:39 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110406/#gl-control-inaccessible-content 16:08:41 zakim, microsoft is kford 16:08:41 sorry, kford, I do not recognize a party named 'microsoft' 16:08:50 Agenda+ EIR GL 1.9 (2-11) Provide an effective focus 16:08:52 mechanism.http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110406/#gl-focus-mechanism 16:09:02 Agenda+ EIR SC 1.11.2 Extended Link Information:: The following 16:09:04 information is provided for each link (Level AAA) 16:09:05 :http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110406/#gl-info-link 16:10:07 KimPatch has joined #ua 16:11:03 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110428/MasterUAAG20110426.html 16:11:30 above is new editors draft 16:12:35 having trouble calling in. I'm getting a conference is restricted message. 16:13:02 kim use temporary zakim code 82942 16:14:27 with 82942 I get a conference is full message 16:14:41 zakim, room for 2 more ports? 16:14:41 I don't understand your question, jeanne. 16:15:00 zakim, is there room for 8 people now? 16:15:00 I don't understand your question, jeanne. 16:15:08 zakim, is there room for 8 people? 16:15:11 sorry, jeanne; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again 16:15:28 zakim, can I add 2 more ports to this conference? 16:15:28 I don't understand your question, jeanne. 16:15:46 kim do you have a skype name 16:16:50 yes, kimpatch 16:17:01 jan will skype you in 16:17:37 zakim, agenda? 16:17:37 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 16:17:39 1. Review proposed changes to Focus & Keyboard [from JAllan] 16:17:41 2. EIR creation for GL 2.8 [from tool bars via JAllan] 16:17:42 3. EIR for GL 2.9 Provide control of content that may reduce [from JAllan] 16:17:44 4. EIR GL 1.9 (2-11) Provide an effective focus [from JAllan] 16:17:46 5. EIR SC 1.11.2 Extended Link Information:: The following [from JAllan] 16:18:50 kim I have sent a skype contact request to you 16:18:51 Scribe: KFord 16:19:07 JA goes over what's left to do. 16:19:18 JA: I propose we start with the smaller items. 16:19:56 zakim, take up item 2 16:19:56 agendum 2. "EIR creation for GL 2.8" taken up [from tool bars via JAllan] 16:20:11 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110428/MasterUAAG20110426.html 16:20:35 http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110428/#gl-configure-controls 16:24:36 zakim, Jan has Kim 16:24:36 sorry, Jan, I do not recognize a party named 'Jan' 16:24:47 wiki http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Keyboard,_Focus,_and_Navigation_Restructuring 16:24:50 zakim, who is here? 16:24:50 has not yet started, jeanne 16:24:51 Kim has joined but is having mic issues 16:24:52 On IRC I see KimPatch, sharper, Zakim, kford, Greg, Jan, JAllan, RRSAgent, jeanne, trackbot 16:25:41 zakim, agenda? 16:25:42 I see 5 items remaining on the agenda: 16:25:44 1. Review proposed changes to Focus & Keyboard [from JAllan] 16:25:46 2. EIR creation for GL 2.8 [from tool bars via JAllan] 16:25:47 3. EIR for GL 2.9 Provide control of content that may reduce [from JAllan] 16:25:51 4. EIR GL 1.9 (2-11) Provide an effective focus [from JAllan] 16:25:53 5. EIR SC 1.11.2 Extended Link Information:: The following [from JAllan] 16:26:05 zakim, take up item 1 16:26:05 agendum 1. "Review proposed changes to Focus & Keyboard" taken up [from JAllan] 16:26:32 Group now reviewing proposals on 2.1.4. 16:28:36 GL reads through proposed changes. 16:28:58 New 2.1.4 - combining old 2.1.2 and 2.1.12 16:29:32 proposed new 2.1.4: The user can override any keyboard shortcut including recognized author supplied shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and user interface controls. Exceptions can be made for conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g. arrow keys for navigating within menus). (Level A) 16:30:29 JA: Any objections to this? 16:30:32 kim +1 16:30:36 +1 16:32:10 JR: This is actually a AAA in ATAG. 16:32:14 opera allows overriding keystrokes 16:32:24 SH: We should think about harmonizing. 16:32:34 GL: AAA might be too far. 16:35:55 Group continuing to talk about combining and priority. 16:37:25 KF: we should have 2 SC 1 at A one at AAA, on for user interface, one for author keystroke 16:37:46 It's possible the old 2.1.2 and 2.1.12 were *supposed* to be only about "user-defined" "shortcuts and UI controls" rather than about "user defined shortcuts" and "UI controls". 16:38:16 KP: This is going to be more and more of a problem. 16:38:29 KP: this will be an ongoing problem. ctrl-f is find, but also defined in google docs. ... user not sure which will fire 16:38:41 JR: Aside: Here's how ATAG2 handles cases where there is a need to for separate reqs: http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20/#sc_a312 16:40:59 JR: In ATAG we had a concept of no keyboard traps. 16:41:52 GL: We have possibillity of separating configurability between UI and content and priority level. 16:42:33 GL: Third is clarifying that exception was optional and not required. 16:44:22 JA: Going back in Feb we had a long talk about this and dropped 2.1.12 to line up with ATAG. 16:44:33 So three issues: 1. Should we split configurability of content from UI? 2. Priority levels for both. 3. Proposed rewording of exception to clarify UA are neither required nor prohibited from allowing the user to reconfigure platform-standard keyboard shortcuts. 16:45:35 previous discussion http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0050.html 16:48:27 2.1.2 (former 4.1.2) Specify preferred keystrokes:: : The user can override any keyboard shortcut including recognized author supplied shortcuts (e.g. accesskeys) and user interface controls, except for conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g., for access to help). (Level A) 16:48:49 scribe: Jan 16:48:56 2.1.10 (former 4.1.10) Override of UI Keyboard Commands: : The user can override any keyboard shortcut binding for the user agent user interface except for conventional bindings for the operating environment (e.g. access to help). The rebinding options must include single-key and key-plus-modifier keys if available in the operating environment. (Level AA) 16:49:09 2.1.11 (former 4.1.11) User Override of Accesskeys: : The user can override any recognized author supplied content keybinding (i.e. access key). The user must have an option to save the override of user interface keyboard shortcuts so that the rebinding persists beyond the current session. (Level AA) 16:49:20 JA: These seem to be very close to each other 16:49:50 JA: So what does 2.1.2 mean? 16:50:41 KF: When look at 2.1.11...confusing...says nothing about ui ...until the end 16:51:55 JA: Let's take them as a unit...2.1.11 needs to have that last bit fixed 16:52:52 JA: looks like 2.1.2 says any keybindings can be overriden 16:53:15 JA: 2.1.10, 2.1.11 add persistence session to session 16:53:32 KF: Ctrl F is a conventional keybing so not covered 16:55:08 KF: JR: We have an SC covering clash between web apps and browsers for keystrokes 16:55:28 JA: All three are tied together 16:55:50 KP: Another google docs example, +FF +mouseless browsing 16:56:15 KP: Google docs does not allow mouseless browsing in some cases 16:56:31 KP: User needs to have full control 16:56:55 GL: Sounds like these are all just a mess....should KP and I work offline? 16:57:19 JS: Agree we should move on 16:58:25 KP: What does this do to new 2.1.4 16:58:38 s/KP/KF 17:00:31 GL: We'll figure out what to do with them 17:01:24 Action: Greg to review 2.1.2 (and 2.1.10, 2.1.11) from http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110428/#gl-keyboard-access and work with Kim and Jim. 17:01:24 Created ACTION-528 - Review 2.1.2 (and 2.1.10, 2.1.11) from http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110428/#gl-keyboard-access and work with Kim and Jim. [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-05-05]. 17:01:55 JA: it's now 1:01pm..ET 17:01:56 rrsagent, make minutes 17:01:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html jeanne 17:03:18 zakim, who is here? 17:03:18 has not yet started, jeanne 17:03:19 On IRC I see KimPatch, sharper, Zakim, kford, Greg, Jan, JAllan, RRSAgent, jeanne, trackbot 17:03:40 zakim, this is WAI_UA 17:03:40 ok, jeanne; that matches WAI_UAWG()1:00PM 17:03:45 zakim, who is here? 17:03:45 On the phone I see +1.425.895.aaaa, ??P10, +1.512.206.aabb 17:03:52 On IRC I see KimPatch, sharper, Zakim, kford, Greg, Jan, JAllan, RRSAgent, jeanne, trackbot 17:04:28 I am on, jan, greg, are on. 17:04:34 +??P15 17:04:42 zakim, ??P15 is sharper 17:04:42 +sharper; got it 17:04:44 zakim, ??P10 is really Jan 17:04:44 +Jan; got it 17:05:00 zakim, aabb is really JAllan 17:05:00 +JAllan; got it 17:05:11 zakim, aaaa is really Greg 17:05:11 +Greg; got it 17:05:14 +Jeanne 17:05:23 zakim, who is here? 17:05:23 On the phone I see Greg, Jan, JAllan, sharper, Jeanne 17:05:25 On IRC I see KimPatch, sharper, Zakim, kford, Greg, Jan, JAllan, RRSAgent, jeanne, trackbot 17:05:30 mhakkinen has joined #ua 17:06:30 rrsagent, make minutes 17:06:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html jeanne 17:07:38 Topic: 2.1.5 17:07:41 2.1.5 No Keyboard Trap [former 2.1.3, name change] 17:08:20 no objections heard. 17:08:26 Resolution: All agree to 2.1.5 No Keyboard Trap 17:08:43 Topic: 2.1.6 17:09:00 +[Microsoft] 17:09:00 Resolution: All agree to 2.1.6 on http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Keyboard,_Focus,_and_Navigation_Restructuring 17:09:14 zakim, [Microsoft] is really kford 17:09:14 +kford; got it 17:09:30 + +1.617.325.aacc 17:11:51 zakim, aacc is really KimPatch 17:11:51 +KimPatch; got it 17:11:54 +Mark_Hakkinen 17:12:34 -Mark_Hakkinen 17:13:30 Topic: 2.1.7 Follow Text Keyboard Conventions [former 2.1.5, name change] 17:13:32 jeanne notes that numbering may have to change again because of ordering by level. We agree to ignore that for today, and jeanne will fix the numbering order later. 17:14:11 no objections. 17:14:17 no objection 17:14:31 Resolution: All agree to 2.1.7 on http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Keyboard,_Focus,_and_Navigation_Restructuring 17:14:47 Topic: 2.1.8 Make Important Command Functions Efficient [former 2.1.9, name change and minor changes] 17:15:06 +Mark_Hakkinen 17:15:56 Important command functions (e.g. related to navigation, display, content, information management) are easily available using a single or efficient sequence of keystrokes or key combinations. (Level AA) 17:16:43 A.3.1.3 Efficient Keyboard Access: The authoring tool user interface includes mechanisms to make keyboard access more efficient than sequential keyboard navigation. (Level AA) 17:17:13 This I like. 17:17:34 http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-IMPLEMENTING-ATAG20-20110426/#sc_a313 17:17:42 +1 from kim, simon, jim 17:18:18 -Mark_Hakkinen 17:18:25 +Mark_Hakkinen 17:18:54 mhakkinen has joined #ua 17:19:00 discussion of wording. 17:20:50 2.1.8 Make Important Command Functions Efficient: Important command functions (e.g. related to navigation, display, content, information management) are more efficient than sequential keyboard navigation. (Level AA) 17:22:16 GL: we already have SC for direct navigation, shortcut keys...compare with 2.3.1 17:22:18 this seems redundant. 17:24:52 action: jeanne to add 2.1.8 text (above) to the document with an editor note to check for redundancy when 2.1 is complete. 17:24:53 Created ACTION-529 - Add 2.1.8 text (above) to the document with an editor note to check for redundancy when 2.1 is complete. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05]. 17:25:47 JA: Not hearing objections 17:25:57 Topic: 2.1.9 Allow Overriding UI Keyboard Commands [former 2.1.10, renamed] 17:26:03 in http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Keyboard,_Focus,_and_Navigation_Restructuring 17:26:28 JA: Objections? 17:26:43 KF: Only to the general overlap problem 17:26:52 JA: OK but we'll deal with that later 17:26:55 action: jeanne to look at IER for the new 2.1.8 and compare with the IER for ATAG A.3.1.3 and update as necessary. 17:26:55 Created ACTION-530 - Look at IER for the new 2.1.8 and compare with the IER for ATAG A.3.1.3 and update as necessary. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05]. 17:28:38 Topic: 17:28:48 Topic: Guideline 2.2 Provide sequential navigation [new, includes former 2.1.8 and 1.9.8, and a new SC] 17:30:52 GL: Contains 4 SCs 17:32:06 Topic: 2.2.1 Sequential Navigation Between Elements [replaces 1.9.8 Bi-Directional and 2.1.8 Keyboard Navigation] 17:33:22 +1. 17:33:27 MH: Looks good 17:33:29 +1 17:33:31 JA: OK 17:34:37 Resolution: All accept 2.2.1 Sequential Navigation Between Elements [replaces 1.9.8 Bi-Directional and 2.1.8 Keyboard Navigation] 17:34:44 Topic: 2.2.2 Sequential Navigation Between Viewports [new] 17:35:01 new wording: The user can move the keyboard focus backwards and forwards through all enabled elements in the current viewport. (Level A) 17:38:31 s/Resolution/Not Resolution 17:38:49 Resolution: All accept new 2.2 restructuring 17:38:57 Topic: 2.2.1 Sequential Navigation Between Elements [replaces 1.9.8 Bi-Directional and 2.1.8 Keyboard Navigation] 17:39:55 MH: Raises problem of "recognized" elements 17:40:02 Previous SC 17:40:03 2.1.8 (former 4.1.8) Keyboard Navigation:: The user can use the keyboard to navigate from group to group of focusable items and to traverse forwards and backwards all of the focusable elements within each group. Groups include, but are not limited to, toolbars, panels, and user agent extensions. (Level AA) 17:40:05 1.9.8 (former 3.11.8) Bi-Directional: : The user can move the keyboard focus forward or backward to any enabled element in the viewport. (Level A) 17:40:25 GL: But note this is not just things in the tab order. 17:42:05 JR: can we wrap document in conformance assumptions 17:42:28 ...one item would be "Recognized" elements. 17:42:40 JR: Called "Conformance Applicability Notes" in ATAG2 17:42:42 This works for me. 17:42:46 ...we have this throughout the document 17:43:08 JS: But also in favour sticking recognized into the relevant SCs 17:43:31 JA: Maybe Jeanne, Kelly and I should huddle on this next week 17:43:57 action: Jeanne to meet with Jim and Kelly to draft Conformance Notes that would be basic assumptions (like "recognized") 17:43:57 Created ACTION-531 - Meet with Jim and Kelly to draft Conformance Notes that would be basic assumptions (like "recognized") [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05]. 17:43:58 MH: I'm ok with it being at the top of the doc 17:47:05 gl: seem to have lost the moving between groups of icons (toolbars), etc. they are viewports. 17:47:39 jr: toolbars are not viewports. 17:48:11 gl: viewports definition is in need of clarification. 17:48:57 gl: a toolbar is a container for a group of controls. 17:49:11 action: jim to schedule review of the definition of viewport, to address the issue of navigation between groups of controls. 17:49:11 Created ACTION-532 - Schedule review of the definition of viewport, to address the issue of navigation between groups of controls. [on Jim Allan - due 2011-05-05]. 17:50:33 scribe: sharper 17:50:51 GL: How broad is our defn of toolbars 17:51:18 GL: Want to say the same thing about frames 17:51:37 GL: more generic than toolbars, say, containers - which we can then define 17:52:05 KF: Does another w3c group already have referenced this to maintain conformity 17:53:10 GL: what would be the example of what is not a group? 17:54:03 2.1.8 (former 4.1.8) Keyboard Navigation:: The user can use the keyboard to navigate from group to group of focusable items and to traverse forwards and backwards all of the focusable elements within each group. Groups include, but are not limited to, toolbars, panels, and user agent extensions. (Level AA) 17:54:09 KF: viewport is a recognised term in W3C 17:55:32 JR: OK with both inc 2.2.1 17:56:56 GL: structural navigation is to parallel navigation in our approach 17:57:33 JA: does structural navigation and take care of group parts 17:57:48 s/JA/JR 17:57:59 JA: Sounds like a good idea 17:59:46 JR: group recognition is really just structural navigation 18:00:24 GL: Giving alternative exemplar 18:01:28 JR: maybe these can be just combined into a version, we see there is a big loophole around one 18:01:48 GL: need to strengthen the other success criteria 18:02:07 JR: like 2.2.1 and 2.2.2 18:02:53 GL: the issue was did we lose the ability to navigate between groups, Jim Allen suggests not. 18:03:05 +q 18:03:26 lucidchart.com 18:04:17 MH: using the keyboard model I would not be sure how to navigate in this application 18:04:26 ack 18:04:59 MH: wondering where the application developers roll finishes and the user agent role begins 18:05:07 s/roll/role 18:07:29 MH: a naive user will expect people to work differently than the application developer may have allowed for in the ARIA 18:07:46 MH: the issue is the identification of all the shortcuts that are available to control the applications 18:08:06 KP: there is a hot key reference but there doesn't seem to be a lot of help 18:09:03 JA: there is an issue, but is there anything more I missing, MH: I'm not sure but something is just bothering me 18:10:07 MH: if a user agent conforms to UAAG 2.0 then there may be the problem if the ARIA overrides this 18:11:02 KP: there are some other issues with this site to the toolbars change and it seems to be a complicated interface there is a lot there 18:11:48 ISSUE: we need to think about this (f a user agent conforms to UAAG 2.0 then there may be the problem if the ARIA overrides this) more. 18:11:48 Created ISSUE-85 - We need to think about this (f a user agent conforms to UAAG 2.0 then there may be the problem if the ARIA overrides this) more. ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/85/edit . 18:11:58 +1 18:12:15 taking a break to 10 minutes 18:12:29 rrsagent, make minutes 18:12:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html jeanne 18:13:36 -Jeanne 18:18:06 I'm writing a couple of paragraphs on the issue. 18:18:54 +Jeanne 18:20:41 -Mark_Hakkinen 18:25:47 +Mark_Hakkinen 18:26:44 MH: is writing a couple of paragraphs regarding issue 85 18:27:18 JA: anybody have any objections to the wording for SC 2.2.1? 18:27:34 GL: should be changed to recognised 18:27:40 The user can move the keyboard focus backwards and forwards through all recognized enabled elements in the current viewport. (Level A) 18:28:07 JR: should be dovetailed into the ARIA container elements, so I would like to be present in the discussion off-line 18:28:27 Note: include mark on the action-532 and include aria-container 18:29:17 2.2.1 The user can move the keyboard focus backwards and forwards through all recognized enabled elements in the current viewport. (Level A) 18:31:00 JA: let's look at the intent of examples 18:31:18 action: jeanne to add new guideline from wiki (2.2) and SC 2.2.1 to the document. 18:31:18 Created ACTION-533 - Add new guideline from wiki (2.2) and SC 2.2.1 to the document. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05]. 18:31:41 I am ok with EIR for 2.2.1 18:31:47 +1 18:31:58 +1 18:32:07 +1 18:32:13 Note sure about 'Sooj'... 18:32:21 s/Note/Not 18:32:30 Feel free to substitute new names. 18:32:53 +1 18:33:03 no worries on names thats an editorial thing and they will be 'normalized' 18:33:32 resolved: Jeanne to Update 18:33:43 action: jeanne to add EIR from wiki (2.2.1) to the document 18:33:43 Created ACTION-534 - Add EIR from wiki (2.2.1) to the document [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05]. 18:34:01 issue: 2.2.2 18:34:07 2.2.2 Sequential Navigation Between Viewports [new] 18:34:08 The user can move the keyboard focus backwards and forwards between viewports, without having to sequentially navigate all the elements in a viewport. (Level A) 18:34:22 JA: any objection to adding this to the document and the wording therein? 18:34:26 +1 18:34:55 JR: I would like to clarify their are the chrome viewpoints and viewpoints within the content which can be controlled by the authors such as the frame or div 18:35:07 mhakkinen has joined #ua 18:35:18 JR: so when we're talking about something which is embedded in something we are just talking about the depth? 18:35:30 JR: we are talking about a depth first traverse of the tree right? 18:36:16 GL: you'll notice that exactly how is not specified, it is left open, we could add something to the intent to ensure it is the depth first 18:36:45 -Mark_Hakkinen 18:36:48 JA: to me what this is saying is that this success criteria is equivalent to the F6 which is available in most browsers 18:37:03 GL: if you look at the example this is exactly what it says 18:37:46 JA and JR resolving confusion 18:38:22 JR: this seems clear enough 18:38:26 This is fine to me now. 18:38:51 call dropped... can't get back in. 18:39:08 JR: we are clear that we are talking about sibling viewports, for instance we're moving from frame to frame to frame to frame without going deeper? 18:39:52 Mark...I can skype you in if you give me your skype name? 18:40:02 mhakkinen 18:41:11 thx 18:41:28 JH: do we need to state this exquisitely in the intent that we are talking about sibling navigation only? 18:41:36 zakim, Jan has Mark 18:41:36 +Mark; got it 18:41:38 GL: yes I think they need to do this, do we need to do it now? 18:42:10 JA: we can just add the term sibling into this success criteria so that we make it “sibling viewport” 18:42:37 GL: users may be confused that the focus is moving just through the viewport is and not moving to the address bar as they wished 18:42:58 JA: can you take an action GL to reword this intent, GL assents 18:43:29 action: Greg to view the issue of viewports and the sibling navigation thereof in more detail 18:43:30 I think moving between sibling viewports is incorrect, because if the user types F6 to move to a frame, then Tab to move to a sub-frame, they would be confused if F6 now only moves between sub-frames and no longer takes them back up to top-level frames, the address bar, etc. 18:44:22 action: Greg to view the issue of viewports and the sibling navigation thereof in more detail 18:44:22 Created ACTION-535 - View the issue of viewports and the sibling navigation thereof in more detail [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-05-05]. 18:45:20 resolved: sibling issue aside this can now go in a document 18:45:27 action: Jeane to add EIR and 2.2.2 into the document 18:45:27 Sorry, couldn't find user - Jeane 18:45:32 s/a /the 18:45:41 action: JS to add EIR and 2.2.2 into the document 18:45:41 Created ACTION-536 - Add EIR and 2.2.2 into the document [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05]. 18:45:50 topic: 2.2.3 18:46:14 renumbering from 1.9.9 and moving down into 2.2.3 with a minor change to the text 18:46:44 JI: let's move on to the intent and examples 18:46:52 s/JI/JA 18:48:33 MH: I have a possible problem with the term mental map as opposed to my suggestion of expectation as mental map implies a certain model is already present 18:49:07 wordsmithing te term expectation to accurate expectation, or accurate prediction 18:49:13 KP: likes accurate expectation 18:49:24 MH: likes at your expectation 18:49:41 s/at your/accurate 18:50:08 KF: are we expecting the content authors to do too much, in general the content authors would not need to do anything 18:50:29 KF: it is implied that content authors are admitted to define the expectation 18:50:49 s/admitted/expected 18:51:36 GL: wordsmithing on-the-fly but not meeting KFs requiremens 18:51:44 s/requiremens/requirements 18:52:36 Kelly, WCAG 2.0 has "2.4.3 Focus Order: If a Web page can be navigated sequentially and the navigation sequences affect meaning or operation, focusable components receive focus in an order that preserves meaning and operability. (Level A)" which says authors should do their part as we mention in our Intent. 18:54:50 KF: suggests - the success criterion insures content navigation (GL: will be consistent between browsers) whether the user agent or other is handling… 18:55:09 The reason for this SC is that browsers will be consistent on the tab order they provide WHEN the content author didn't explicitly define one. 18:56:03 From UAAG 10: "If the author has not specified a navigation order, allow at least forward sequential navigation, in document order, to each element in the set established by provision one of this checkpoint." 18:56:57 kford has joined #ua 18:57:28 JA: let's start with the sentence above 'The reason for this SC is that browsers will be consistent on the tab order they provide WHEN the content author didn't explicitly define one.' in the intent 18:57:55 JA: any other problems with the intent examples or resources? all agree this is okay 18:58:28 resolved: with this additional sentence in the intent 'The reason for this SC is that browsers will be consistent on the tab order they provide WHEN the content author didn't explicitly define one.' 18:58:47 topic: 2.2.4 Options for Wrapping in Navigation [new] 18:59:17 GL: in the process of explaining his and KP's rationale 18:59:23 2.2.4 needs to be optional beyond that I'm fine with it. 18:59:47 do you mean AAA 19:00:45 GL: it is optional in that the wording says that the user 'can have' as opposed to' must have' 19:01:14 JS: can we find a browser which implements this? 19:02:04 JR: this is nice to have but I'm agreeing with JS about the implementation problem, MH agrees. 19:02:38 KP: Shall we make this a Triple-A? 19:03:08 JS: we needed implementations for Triple-A to 19:03:29 JS: if we don't know of any implementations we should remove it even though it's nice to have 19:04:00 KF: clarifies that he would just like this to be optional. 19:04:55 JA: discussing different behaviours within form controls as examples. Trying to verify that this applies to everything or nothing and is not variable. KP agrees and elaborates the point. 19:04:57 How about adding to intent: However, keyboard users who can see the entire screen may very well benefit from having wrapping without being interrupted by a pop-up dialog box, so ideally this behavior should be under the user's control. 19:06:09 JA: this would be a radical change to browsers 19:06:26 KF: clarifies whether the conformance claim could apply this to specific parts 19:06:39 JR: suggest this would not be the case using a keyboard example 19:07:31 resolved: place in the document, but with Triple-A, and then remove if we don't find any limitation when we look for exemplar cases 19:07:51 s/limitation/application 19:08:39 topic: Guideline 2.3 Provide direct navigation and activation [includes former 2.1.6, 2.1.7, 2.1.11] 19:08:47 Action: JS to add 2.2.4 from the wiki to the document 19:08:48 Created ACTION-537 - Add 2.2.4 from the wiki to the document [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05]. 19:08:57 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:08:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html sharper 19:09:36 Topic: 2.3.1–just a name change 19:11:56 JA: any objections the word change? No objections. 19:13:33 Action: Greg and Kim to write IER for "Direct Navigation to Important Elements" 19:13:33 Created ACTION-538 - And Kim to write IER for "Direct Navigation to Important Elements" [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-05-05]. 19:13:38 action: JS to change title of 2.3.1 to Direct Navigation to Important Elements 19:13:38 Created ACTION-539 - Change title of 2.3.1 to Direct Navigation to Important Elements [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05]. 19:14:02 -Jeanne 19:14:12 JA: skipping 2.3.2 19:14:30 proposed wording 2.1.6 The user can have any recognized direct commands (e.g. accesskey) in rendered content be presented with their associated elements (Level A) 19:14:55 TOPIC: 2.3.3 Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content [former 2.1.6, before that 4.1.6, also 2.7.1, minor change] (Level A) 19:15:10 old wording: 2.1.6 (former 4.1.6) Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content:: The user can have any recognized direct commands (e.g. accesskey) in rendered content be presented with their associated elements (e.g. "[Ctrl+t]" displayed after a link whose accesskey value is "t", or an audio browser reading the value or label of a form control followed by "accesskey control plus t"). (Level A) 19:15:12 GL: explaining the rationale for the changes 19:16:54 JA: any objections to this? No objections for the intent and examples for 2.1.6, it seems. 19:17:56 JA: changing wiki to reflect cross-referencing to its twin 19:18:06 GL: does anyone disagree with how we got rid of 2.7.1? 19:18:21 Silence… 19:19:56 MH: notice that in the examples of new 2.3.3 Mnemonic letters are not often done automatically, i.e. the author would have controlled it not the user agent. 19:20:52 not MH ... JR 19:21:52 s/MH/JR 19:22:30 agree to remove example 3 from the examples for 2.1.6 under 2.3.3 19:22:50 (That is move the third example from the SC about content to the SC about UA UI.) 19:23:37 action: JS to add 2.3.3 from the wiki into the document 19:23:37 Created ACTION-540 - Add 2.3.3 from the wiki into the document [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05]. 19:23:47 jeanne has joined #ua 19:23:58 RESOLVED: wiki for 2.3.3 to be added to the document 19:25:18 action: JA add underline of menu items (keyboard shortcuts) to 4.1.6 Properties 19:25:18 Created ACTION-541 - Add underline of menu items (keyboard shortcuts) to 4.1.6 Properties [on Jim Allan - due 2011-05-05]. 19:25:42 TOPIC: 2.3.4 Present Direct Commands in User Interface [former 2.1.7, before that 4.1.7, also 2.7.1, minor change] (Level AA) 19:25:46 calling now 19:26:10 JA: minor change… 19:26:43 old: 2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes: : Direct navigation and activation keystrokes are discoverable both programmatically and via perceivable labels. (Level A) 19:26:47 shoot -- I can't. Other line is in use. 19:26:52 JA: this does not have an EIR either, let's deal with the minor change first 19:27:18 new: 2.3.4 Present Direct Commands in User Interface. The user has the option to have any direct commands (e.g. keyboard shortcuts) in the user agent user interface be presented with their associated user interface controls (e.g. "Ctrl+S" displayed on the "Save" menu item and toolbar button). (Level AA) 19:27:34 jeanne, I'' call you in 19:28:22 2.1.7 (former 4.1.7) Present Direct Commands in User Interface:: The user has the option to have any direct commands (e.g. keyboard shortcuts) in the user agent user interface be presented with their associated user interface controls (e.g. "Ctrl+S" displayed on the "Save" menu item and toolbar button). (Level AA) 19:29:23 GL: things we just remove the in-line example which wasn't appropriate here. 19:29:53 GL: purely editorial change, we can add it back if people want, it was a parenthetical which we could lose. 19:30:02 JA: any objections to this? 19:30:05 No objection. 19:30:27 kford has joined #ua 19:30:38 GL: the example for 2.1.7 is kind of hard to follow and to be supplied down thus 19:31:12 2.3.4 The user has the option to have any direct commands (e.g. keyboard shortcuts) in the user agent user interface be presented with their associated user interface controls. (Level AA) 19:31:55 RESOLVED: agreed to inclusion with removal of the parenthetical 19:32:00 Action: JS to add new wording for 2.3.4 (2.7.1) into document. 19:32:01 Created ACTION-542 - Add new wording for 2.3.4 (2.7.1) into document. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05]. 19:32:42 TOPIC: 2.3.5 Small renaming change. 19:33:29 Renamed from "Override of Accesskeys" to "Allow Overriding of Accesskeys" 19:34:48 JR: it's one thing to say remap it's another thing to say I'd like this possibly malicious web app to not in my shortcuts 19:34:57 s/in/eat 19:35:46 JA: do we need something to say who will get the keyboard shortcut first, I don't think it's here, JR: what do you think? 19:36:37 GL: if this can be found in the draft so far do we want to do this through the call or shell JR: take an action item? 19:36:47 JA: if anybody should do this it should be me I'll find it 19:36:58 GL: I don't remember anything like this in my recent reading of the guidelines 19:38:05 action: JA to find or create the SC for order of keyboard processing (script, UA, accesskey) 19:38:05 Created ACTION-543 - Find or create the SC for order of keyboard processing (script, UA, accesskey) [on Jim Allan - due 2011-05-05]. 19:38:31 kford has joined #ua 19:38:57 GL: is 2.3.5 redundant to these success criteria were talking about with regard to keyboard Configuration? 19:39:25 GL: should we talk about recognise keyboard shortcuts as opposed to access keys which is very specific to HTML 19:39:57 all: general assent that shortcuts should be used as opposed to access keys in the terminology 19:41:08 action: ja to rewrite 2.3.5 to be technology agnostic...author defined keyboard shortcuts in rendered content 19:41:08 Created ACTION-544 - Rewrite 2.3.5 to be technology agnostic...author defined keyboard shortcuts in rendered content [on Jim Allan - due 2011-05-05]. 19:41:19 JA: “author defined keyboard shortcuts” 19:41:37 Is "user-supplied keyboard shortcuts" the same as "keyboard shortcuts in rendered content"? 19:41:57 RESOLVED: JA to action this 19:42:14 2.5.1 Provide structural navigation [new] 19:42:16 [We required the user agent let the user specify the set of important elements for structured navigation, but did not actually have a success criterion requiring structured navigation itself. We should add one or more.] 19:42:22 JA: skipping guideline 2.4 and 2.5 as these are just reordering 19:42:36 TOPIC: moving on to 2.5.1 as this is a new guideline 19:42:54 GL: we have not written as we just realised there was a hole and therefore we added it 19:43:01 JA: any thoughts? 19:43:31 JR: this is good to have may be tricky but I think it'll be okay, MH: agrees 19:44:01 JA: we need to flesh this out JR: will take this as an action item 19:44:14 JR: will also do the EIR 19:44:21 Action JR: SC and EIR for 2.5.1 Provide structural navigation [new] 19:44:21 Created ACTION-545 - SC and EIR for 2.5.1 Provide structural navigation [new] [on Jan Richards - due 2011-05-05]. 19:44:54 RESOLVED: JR to to take this further 19:45:15 TOPIC: 2.5.2 Specify Elements for Structural Navigation [formerly 2.7.7, before that 4.7.6, moved and renamed only] 19:45:40 MH: change the name and added “all role” 19:46:01 JA: any objections? 19:46:06 No objections 19:46:35 Action: JS to add 2.5.2 to document (new name and include sc) 19:46:35 Created ACTION-546 - Add 2.5.2 to document (new name and include sc) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05]. 19:46:59 RESOLVED: Jeanne to add this to the document, but EIR's are not present 19:47:21 JA: no changes to guidelines 2.6, 2.7, 2.8, 2.9, 2.10, 2.11 19:47:43 JA: moving to guideline 3.4, success criteria 3.4.1 19:47:59 TOPIC: 3.4.1 Avoid Unpredictable Focus [formerly 3.4.2, before that 5.4.2, and 1.9.10, broadened] 19:48:15 old: 3.4.2 (former 5.4.2) Unpredictable focus:: The user is informed when the user agent changes focus. The user agent provides a global option to block uninitiated focus changes. 19:48:35 New: 3.4.1 The user can prevent focus changes that are not a result of explicit user request. (Level A) 19:49:39 3.4.1 Avoid Unpredictable Focus Change. The user can prevent focus changes that are not a result of explicit user request. (Level A) 19:50:43 GL: it's clarifying the note in the wiki 19:52:11 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:52:11 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html sharper 19:52:37 Do people think this SC rewrite adequately covers both what was 3.4.1 and 3.4.2, meaning give them control over INITIAL focus when the page loads AND focus changes thereafter? 19:53:37 JA: it is not sure that the intent is clear enough 19:53:51 If we want to make that more clear, we could for example add to the SC "on page load and thereafter". 19:54:12 JR: is happy with the way things are now, even though it doesn't explicitly say it 19:54:17 intent is clear, sc is a bit fuzzy 19:54:23 KF: I like your weight is 19:54:29 JA: any objections? 19:54:33 I like it. excellent examples 19:56:06 SH: Correctling 'KF: I like your weight is' to KF: I like it the way it is 19:56:09 Action: JS to remove 3.4.1 from the document. Add 3.4.1 from the wiki to replace 3.4.2 19:56:10 Created ACTION-547 - Remove 3.4.1 from the document. Add 3.4.1 from the wiki to replace 3.4.2 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-05-05]. 19:56:14 People OK with us removing the user agent option to simply notify the user when focus changes without their request? 19:56:29 JA: no objections 19:57:02 RESOLVED: remove the user agent option to simply notify the user will focus changes at their request 19:57:31 JA: planning for the future with regard to completing IERs 19:58:16 -kford 19:58:19 -Greg 19:58:20 -KimPatch 19:58:35 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:58:35 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html sharper 19:58:46 zakim, please part 19:58:46 leaving. As of this point the attendees were +1.425.895.aaaa, +1.512.206.aabb, sharper, JAllan, Greg, Jeanne, kford, +1.617.325.aacc, KimPatch, Mark_Hakkinen, Mark 19:58:46 Zakim has left #ua 19:59:05 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:59:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html sharper 19:59:43 rrsagent, draft minutes 19:59:43 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-minutes.html sharper 20:00:08 rrsagent, please part 20:00:08 I see 22 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-actions.rdf : 20:00:08 ACTION: Greg to review 2.1.2 (and 2.1.10, 2.1.11) from http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110428/#gl-keyboard-access and work with Kim and Jim. [1] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T17-01-24 20:00:08 ACTION: jeanne to add 2.1.8 text (above) to the document with an editor note to check for redundancy when 2.1 is complete. [2] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T17-24-52 20:00:08 ACTION: jeanne to look at IER for the new 2.1.8 and compare with the IER for ATAG A.3.1.3 and update as necessary. [3] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T17-26-55 20:00:08 ACTION: Jeanne to meet with Jim and Kelly to draft Conformance Notes that would be basic assumptions (like "recognized") [4] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T17-43-57 20:00:08 ACTION: jim to schedule review of the definition of viewport, to address the issue of navigation between groups of controls. [5] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T17-49-11 20:00:08 ACTION: jeanne to add new guideline from wiki (2.2) and SC 2.2.1 to the document. [6] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T18-31-18 20:00:08 ACTION: jeanne to add EIR from wiki (2.2.1) to the document [7] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T18-33-43 20:00:08 ACTION: Greg to view the issue of viewports and the sibling navigation thereof in more detail [8] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T18-43-29 20:00:08 ACTION: Greg to view the issue of viewports and the sibling navigation thereof in more detail [9] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T18-44-22 20:00:08 ACTION: Jeane to add EIR and 2.2.2 into the document [10] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T18-45-27 20:00:08 ACTION: JS to add EIR and 2.2.2 into the document [11] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T18-45-41 20:00:08 ACTION: JS to add 2.2.4 from the wiki to the document [12] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T19-08-47 20:00:08 ACTION: Greg and Kim to write IER for "Direct Navigation to Important Elements" [13] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T19-13-33 20:00:08 ACTION: JS to change title of 2.3.1 to Direct Navigation to Important Elements [14] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T19-13-38 20:00:08 ACTION: JS to add 2.3.3 from the wiki into the document [15] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T19-23-37 20:00:08 ACTION: JA add underline of menu items (keyboard shortcuts) to 4.1.6 Properties [16] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T19-25-18 20:00:08 ACTION: JS to add new wording for 2.3.4 (2.7.1) into document. [17] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T19-32-00 20:00:08 ACTION: JA to find or create the SC for order of keyboard processing (script, UA, accesskey) [18] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T19-38-05 20:00:08 ACTION: ja to rewrite 2.3.5 to be technology agnostic...author defined keyboard shortcuts in rendered content [19] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T19-41-08 20:00:08 ACTION: JR to SC and EIR for 2.5.1 Provide structural navigation [new] [20] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T19-44-21 20:00:08 ACTION: JS to add 2.5.2 to document (new name and include sc) [21] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T19-46-35 20:00:08 ACTION: JS to remove 3.4.1 from the document. Add 3.4.1 from the wiki to replace 3.4.2 [22] 20:00:08 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-ua-irc#T19-56-09