03:52:22 RRSAgent has joined #lld 03:52:22 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-lld-irc 03:52:34 zakim, this wil be LLD 03:52:34 I don't understand 'this wil be LLD', emma 03:52:42 zakim, this will be LLD 03:52:42 ok, emma, I see INC_LLDXG()12:00AM already started 03:53:55 hideaki has joined #lld 03:54:03 antoine has joined #lld 03:55:33 +[IPcaller] 03:55:46 +??P2 03:56:00 TomB has joined #lld 03:56:03 zakim, IPcaller is me 03:56:03 +antoine; got it 03:56:29 zakim, ??P2 is TomB 03:56:29 +TomB; got it 03:56:39 +??P3 03:56:56 zakim, who is on the call? 03:56:56 On the phone I see ??P0, antoine, TomB, ??P3 03:57:02 +??P5 03:57:24 zakim, ??P5 is kcoyle 03:57:24 +kcoyle; got it 03:57:40 ikki has joined #lld 03:57:51 Meeting: LLD XG 03:57:53 Chair: Tom 03:58:01 rrsagent, please make record public 03:58:19 zakim, ??P3 is maybe me 03:58:19 I don't understand '??P3 is maybe me', emma 03:58:20 +??P6 03:58:26 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Apr/0066.html 03:58:34 zakim, ??P3 is probably me 03:58:34 +emma?; got it 03:58:36 zakim, who is on the call? 03:58:36 On the phone I see ??P0, antoine, TomB, emma?, kcoyle, ??P6 03:58:40 zakim, ??P6 is jeff_ 03:58:40 +jeff_; got it 03:58:53 +Marcia 03:58:59 fumi has joined #lld 03:59:16 jeff_ has joined #lld 03:59:36 zakim, unmute me 03:59:36 jeff_ was not muted, jeff_ 03:59:43 zakim, mute me 03:59:43 jeff_ should now be muted 03:59:48 zakim, mute me 03:59:48 Marcia should now be muted 04:00:45 kosuke has joined #lld 04:01:37 rrsagent, please draft minutes 04:01:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-lld-minutes.html emma 04:02:10 +[IPcaller] 04:02:28 Zakim, [IPcaller] is edsu 04:02:28 +edsu; got it 04:02:56 zakim, please mute me 04:02:56 antoine should now be muted 04:03:00 +??P10 04:03:37 me too, when needed 04:04:08 scribenick: edsu 04:04:11 zakim, who is on the call? 04:04:11 On the phone I see hideaki, antoine (muted), TomB, emma?, kcoyle, jeff_ (muted), Marcia (muted), edsu, ??P10 04:04:13 hideaki has fumi, ikki, kosuke 04:05:15 zakim, ??P10 is DanChudnov 04:05:15 +DanChudnov; got it 04:05:20 thanks TomB 04:05:47 Topic: Reports on the status of the main deliverable 04:06:00 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReport 04:06:36 Benefits section: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Benefits 04:07:03 emma: it is important to start the report with a section of benefits that illustrates the value of linked data for libraries 04:07:14 ... started this with a review of the 42 use cases 04:07:33 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Benefits 04:08:08 ... started with a bullet point list, then organized in terms of 'benefits for whom?" -- everyone, librarians, developers, organizations 04:08:31 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Benefits 04:08:45 ... then wrote summarizing text 04:09:15 ... main benefit is that everything will have a URI so it can be referenced and de-referenced 04:09:30 ... and will make it possible to pull together data 04:10:01 ... then benefits for different users, like researchers, etc. 04:10:57 scribenick: edsu 04:11:01 Topic: Issues 04:11:21 kcoyle: we began with the use cases, and extracted from them all the issues and problems that were identified 04:12:08 kcoyle: we brought these together and came up w/ 3 different categories: management, collaboration and extending of standards, library standards themselves 04:12:11 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_issues_page 04:13:09 kcoyle: libraries by their nature work in a stable and somewhat unchanging environment, and how this effects making changes to linked data: price, rights ... and how libraries have large amounts of data already, and how this needs to get translated into this new format 04:13:15 kcoyle: that's the high level 04:13:54 TomB: to elborate on this point of translation: we want to make reference to different design decisions that can be made in transation, but we don't want to go into too much detail 04:14:10 zakim, unmute me 04:14:10 jeff_ should no longer be muted 04:14:17 Topic: Relevant Technologies 04:14:21 lukose has joined #lld 04:14:35 TomB: this is a good lead in to the next topic 04:14:35 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Relevant_Technologies 04:14:53 zakim, unmute me 04:14:53 jeff_ was not muted, jeff_ 04:14:53 ack jeff_ 04:15:05 can't hear me? 04:15:09 no 04:15:12 jeff_: not yet :-) 04:15:13 ok 04:15:15 zakim, unmute antoine 04:15:15 antoine should no longer be muted 04:15:23 sorry 04:15:25 Antoine, yes I can speak about our part 04:15:31 zakim, who is here? 04:15:31 On the phone I see hideaki, antoine, TomB, emma?, kcoyle, jeff_, Marcia (muted), edsu, DanChudnov 04:15:32 zakim, unmute marcia 04:15:33 hideaki has fumi, ikki, kosuke 04:15:33 Marcia should no longer be muted 04:15:41 about the vocabulary? 04:15:55 zakim, who's here ? 04:15:55 On the phone I see hideaki, antoine, TomB, emma?, kcoyle, jeff_, Marcia, edsu, DanChudnov 04:15:57 hideaki has fumi, ikki, kosuke 04:16:07 marcia: i can talk about vocabulary and dataset deliverable 04:16:28 I may have fixed my problem 04:16:39 zakim, mute me 04:16:39 jeff_ should now be muted 04:16:46 Topic: Available data: vocabularies and datasets 04:17:12 marcia: in general we have two main parts 04:17:19 zakim, mute antoine 04:17:19 antoine should now be muted 04:17:20 Jeff, you can pick up after Marcia and Antoine have presented 04:17:48 marcia: metadata element sets (rdf schemas, owl ontologies) 04:18:10 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/File:LLD-MetadataElementSetCloudMock.png 04:18:11 marcia: there is a plan that antoine will draw a picture of how metadata terms are reused by each other 04:18:25 marcia: the 2nd major part includes the value-vocabularies and datasets 04:18:47 marcia: the idea is to use the linked-open-data registered in the ckan to show what is relevant for library linked data 04:19:10 marcia: value vocabularies can be used to cover entities and subject vocabularies 04:19:26 marcia: most of the vocabularies are mentioned in the use cases 04:19:45 ... the part we haven't finished yet is on published datasets 04:19:46 LLD on CKAN : http://ckan.net/package?groups=lld 04:19:55 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Vocabulary_and_Dataset 04:20:04 zakim, unmute antoine 04:20:04 antoine should no longer be muted 04:20:30 kind of interesting too: http://semantic.ckan.net/group/?group=http://ckan.net/group/lld 04:21:00 antoine: that's the work of william 04:21:18 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Vocabulary_and_Dataset 04:21:19 ... we plan on having a specific section on vocabulary datasets, but we have not yet made progress on it 04:21:46 ... the idea would be start with a summary, to start with the most representative vocabularies/ontologies and value vocabularies 04:22:09 s/be start/be to start/ 04:22:50 ... e.g. for frbr there are several ones, we would identify the issues: when there are more than one, and when there aren't any 04:23:30 zakim, unmute me 04:23:30 jeff_ should no longer be muted 04:23:32 ... we have been working on the side deliverable to help us identify the issue first 04:23:41 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_Relevant_Technologies 04:23:48 scribenick: kcoyle 04:23:51 +??P11 04:24:06 oops, we've got static 04:24:08 zakim, ??P11 is lukose 04:24:08 +lukose; got it 04:24:52 zakim, mute me 04:24:52 Marcia should now be muted 04:25:30 trying to explain linked data is a challenge -- i've written a few paragraphs to try to explain the relevant technologies 04:25:50 ... but it's not just a question of having new tools; have to use domain-specific technologies, etc. 04:26:21 ... the relevant technologies are allowing us to create the infrastructure; it's not tools, but it's about taking the data we have today 04:26:33 s/trying/Jeff: Trying 04:26:39 ... and mapping to these new technologies; leaving our current infrastructure in place 04:27:19 ... sees 3-4 different categories of things happening; like take existing relational databases and map those to technologies 04:28:03 ... can store new data in new ways that aren't as hard to map as our old schemas 04:28:34 ... use OWL-based designed technologies; there are tools to help us do that development 04:28:54 s/designed/design 04:29:35 ... then there is the controlled vocabulary level, such as SKOS; not classes or properties, but usable vocabularies 04:29:49 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-lld-minutes.html antoine 04:30:18 ... modeling question between what things are best described in OWL and what in SKOS 04:30:40 ... much of this gets off-loaded to W3C as the keeper of RDF / Semantic Web standards 04:30:52 q+ to ask about using web frameworks and rdfa 04:30:58 zakim, mute me 04:30:58 jeff_ should now be muted 04:31:17 ack edsu 04:31:17 edsu, you wanted to ask about using web frameworks and rdfa 04:31:24 zakim, unmute me 04:31:24 jeff_ should no longer be muted 04:32:18 Edsu: A-ha moment for me: Django tools made it easy to create a Website with URIs - that I could use that for publishing RDF too. 04:32:42 kosuke_ has joined #lld 04:32:47 is there any tech (or policy guidelines) can be used to keep the linkage in linked data (esp. the which used in the name spaces) more sustainable, like cache technology. For the maintainance of the links in linked data is quite fatal. 04:32:57 ...Cobble together some RDF/XML. Karen in Open Library: Web publishing framework - created templates that would generate RDF. 04:33:36 zakim, mute tomeB 04:33:36 sorry, emma, I do not know which phone connection belongs to tomeB 04:33:39 ...Seems overwhelming when people discuss SW tech stack - "convert all your data", "you need a SPARQL endpoint" - developers tune out. 04:34:10 ...Legacy systems that we have. Do not have to discard to do something useful. 04:34:50 @keven: sthg like that? http://dsnotify.org/ 04:35:02 Jeff: In my case, played with Rails - still doing domain models - object-oriented classes - variables get mapped to database. Tried hard. Could produce RDF that way, but frustrating. 04:35:24 ok thanks to antonie. i'll look into that 04:35:29 ...That's why I like ?DVRQ database - do in two days what I spent six months doing with Rails. 04:35:39 Edsu: Opposite experience. 04:36:20 Jeff: Maybe walk thru the steps I took. Compare scaffolding languages. Important that we be able to do with data we have. Chance to start to migrate. 04:37:00 Edsu: RDFa. Rails and Django. 04:37:25 Jeff: But Grails has default URI pattern. Now you're stuck. URIs a huge problem - designing good ones. 04:38:15 Edsu: Haven't had any trouble - optimized for defining URI spaces. Get you thinking about resources and how am I naming them. Web developers looking at this section would want to see this. 04:38:20 Jeff: Compare approaches. 04:38:30 scribenick: edsu 04:39:16 keven: are there any policies for keeping the linkage in linked data, e.g. which namespaces are used, using cache technologies to help maintain links 04:40:02 jeff_: caching is normally for network efficiency ; the domain not being supported anymore is a bit different 04:40:17 jeff_: imagine dbpedia going away ... i don't know what the answer is 04:40:27 jeff_: publishing the information in bulk can help 04:40:30 thx anyway 04:40:42 q+ to mention 301 04:40:57 TomB: any more questions can be typed into IRC 04:41:03 ack edsu 04:41:03 edsu, you wanted to mention 301 04:41:09 do you have any comments on drupal used for linked data application? 04:41:36 ed: big search engines look at things that moves 04:41:39 we plan to have a try on drupal to publish some exprimental biblio data 04:41:45 The PURL server can help too. Somebody could step in. 04:41:50 zakim, mute me 04:41:50 jeff_ should now be muted 04:42:23 ed: this is the architecture of the Web issue 04:42:34 Edsu: Do a 301 redirect when a site moves permanently to another location. People who care about link integrity - don't want to serve up dead links - part of the architecture. Link rot. Identifiers break. They do not give the URI enough respect. 04:42:42 are there any guideline for representing and linking the "DataSet" and the "Model" used in producing the results outlined in a scientific publication, to the "meta-data" of the publication? 04:43:22 yes 04:43:25 kcoyle: is this about the underlying data? 04:43:47 @keven are you using this module? http://drupal.org/project/linked_data 04:43:48 absolutely correct! 04:43:50 TomB: so linking a scientific publication with the data used 04:43:51 tom: this is about linking sci publication with the data used to describe the publication 04:44:03 http://datacite.org/ 04:44:09 ... is there a standard way to link the two? 04:44:09 @kosuke: yes 04:44:39 http://www.dlib.org/dlib/january11/starr/01starr.html 04:44:45 ed: someone sent a link to this article 04:44:47 suggest to look at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Citations 04:45:21 Edsu: Link to D-lib article in January - looking at this problem. Looking at LD approaches to linking data to publications. A consortium that started in 2009. 04:45:51 zakim, unmute me 04:45:51 jeff_ should no longer be muted 04:45:56 ...Herbert van de Sompel - OAI-ORE. 04:46:02 zakim, mute me 04:46:02 emma? should now be muted 04:46:23 Jeff: Hard time understanding OAI-ORE - aggregations nice, but what are its boundaries? How do you draw those boundaries. 04:46:25 jeff_: hard to imagine what the boundaries of aggregations are in oai-ore and how to draw those boundaries 04:46:42 antoine: i think ore could be used, but there is no standard way to use it to link articles to datasets 04:46:52 zakim, mute me 04:46:52 jeff_ should now be muted 04:46:52 antoine: i think it's still an active topic of research 04:47:10 Antoine: ORE could be used but there is no standard way to use it for linking articles to datasets. Still a topic of research. Alot of activitity about scientific data. Have not heard about standard ways. 04:47:14 ... i've not heard of standard ways, but there are lots of things happening 04:47:28 zakim, unmute me 04:47:28 emma? should no longer be muted 04:47:31 lukose: good question :) 04:47:32 just found this: http://www.std-doi.de/front_content.php 04:47:36 ok, thanks guys.... this is an interesting challange... 04:47:53 could be interesting to mention in report! 04:48:00 antoine++ 04:48:28 TomB: perhaps you could consider mentioning it in your section? 04:48:47 The Dryad project at UNC Chapel Hill is working on relating scientific publications with scientific data sets 04:48:49 D-Lib article: http://www.dlib.org/dlib/january11/starr/01starr.html 04:49:19 D-Lib: isCitedBy: A Metadata Scheme for DataCite 04:49:46 antoine: i think it's more of a research area 04:50:09 http://datadryad.org/ 04:50:46 edsu: might make sense to capture it as a possible vocabulary gap 04:51:03 D-Lib issue on research data: http://www.dlib.org/dlib/january11/01contents.html 04:51:29 TomB: we need to have a good elevator pitch, or top-level story 04:51:45 ... one problem we have is that libraries have changed technologies many times 04:51:54 zakim, mute me 04:51:54 jeff_ was already muted, jeff_ 04:52:02 ... the movement to linked data could look like another one 04:52:12 TomB: * antoine, maybe we need to add that metadata scheme even though no use case 04:52:52 ... we want to convey that there is a paradigm shift between record based data with statement based data 04:53:23 */TomB/Antoine 04:53:26 ... the report is targeted at decision makers, who will be in a position to set policy within their organisations 04:53:45 TomB: any final questions in the 7 minutes remaining? 04:54:15 rrsagent, please draft minutes 04:54:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-lld-minutes.html emma 04:54:32 TomB: any comments from malaysia, china and japan on how the linked data idea is being perceived, and what sort of arguments do we need to put into place in order to convince decision makers that this is something they should devote some resources to 04:54:39 Tom: do you want to talk: Recommendations (Karen, Tom) http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Draft_recommendations_page 04:55:35 hideaki: is it for leaders of libraries and museums? 04:55:35 and top level managers, no? 04:55:41 TomB: yes 04:56:44 Hideaki: in Japan. To decision-makers, we often have to explain benefits of RDF. Prefer to have simple explanations. 04:56:56 TomB++ 04:57:05 my challange is in creating awareness of the LOD developments arround the world, to our local lib (national archive, national lib, etc....), so I am conducting workshops...the next challange is the benefits of this to the organization. 04:58:01 TomB: that is exactly what we are trying to summarize just 3-4 pages 04:58:11 q+ on reviewing or contrib to recs 04:58:16 .. the benifits for different categories 04:58:17 ack antoine 04:58:17 antoine, you wanted to comment on reviewing or contrib to recs 04:58:19 TomB: that's why we're trying to boil down the high level benefits for different groups 04:58:20 usually decision makers in library circle used to adopt turn-key solutions for them. they don't care about the linked data technology. so the benefit for them is important to get conciousness. for the techie people they need tools, tools, tools. 04:58:26 .. for librarians, developers 04:58:54 yes, I would very much like to help.... 04:59:10 antoine: could hideaki and keven play a more formal role in reviewing the benefits? since they have to talk to decision makers it would be great to have them look at it 04:59:22 s/keven/lukose/ 04:59:43 I also suspect that benefits may vary by country or region... so there may be benefits that we haven't identified? 04:59:54 TomB: currently the benefits secition is about 2 pages, it still has some rough edges, but it should be ready to be reviewed by the teleconference next tuesday 05:00:14 i'd love to take a review on this 05:00:20 TomB: the benifit section is very important and to be discussed next week 05:00:29 ... since it is so crucial, it would be great if we had your help 05:00:42 kosuke has joined #lld 05:00:45 .. is any of you can volunteer to review, it will be very helpful. 05:01:00 .. we may sign reviewers on the May 5th 05:01:11 q+ on workshops 05:01:29 TomB: if you could comment on the mailing list which ones work and which ones don't ; also a review of the recommendations would be helpful 05:01:40 ack antoine 05:01:40 antoine, you wanted to comment on workshops 05:02:43 antoine: one specific point about workshops and education, if there is any experience available in the kind of topic that should be mentioned in such workshops, what sort of targets, it would be really nice, it turns out gunter may not be able to contribute 05:02:45 Antoine: workshops on education, if anyone can jump in to make recommendations that will be helpful 05:02:59 .. especailly if there are expereince 05:03:10 I can make some contribution on my experience in doing these lectures and workshops... 05:03:21 lukose++ 05:03:32 *no, ed, I could not see 05:03:35 @antoine excuse me, does "linking articles to datasets" in ORE mean "citation" in this topic? 05:03:45 *just try to duplicate 05:04:00 kosuke: yes we did look at that in the context of citation 05:04:06 @kosuke: not sure, maybe we could discuss that by email 05:04:14 kosuke: did you run across that wiki page? 05:04:15 thanks for having me here 05:04:16 tq 05:04:22 -jeff_ 05:04:22 thx ! 05:04:23 -kcoyle 05:04:25 -Marcia 05:04:28 thank you! 05:04:32 -edsu 05:04:33 rrsagent, please draft minutes 05:04:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-lld-minutes.html emma 05:04:37 -DanChudnov 05:04:40 -hideaki 05:04:41 zakim, please list attendees 05:04:41 As of this point the attendees have been antoine, TomB, kcoyle, emma?, jeff_, Marcia, fumi, ikki, kosuke, edsu, DanChudnov, lukose 05:04:51 rrsagent, please draft minutes 05:04:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-lld-minutes.html antoine 05:04:57 jeff_ has left #lld 05:05:01 -lukose 05:05:25 kosuke: here were our notes: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Cluster_Citations 05:05:54 -antoine 05:05:56 -TomB 05:06:02 -emma? 05:06:03 INC_LLDXG()12:00AM has ended 05:06:04 Attendees were antoine, TomB, kcoyle, emma?, jeff_, Marcia, fumi, ikki, kosuke, edsu, DanChudnov, lukose 05:06:12 kosuke: that's actually how datacite came to my attention, when i was working on those notes w/ kai 05:06:48 rrsagent, bye 05:06:48 I see no action items