14:58:48 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
14:58:48 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-html-a11y-irc
14:58:50 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:58:50 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
14:58:52 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
14:58:52 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:53 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:58:53 <trackbot> Date: 28 April 2011
14:59:50 <oedipus> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Apr/0355.html
14:59:57 <janina> zakim, who's here?
14:59:57 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has not yet started, janina
14:59:58 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, MichaelC, janina, JF, silvia, davidb, oedipus, MikeSmith, [tm], trackbot
15:00:01 <oedipus> regrets: Laura_Carlson,Silvia_Pfieffer,Kenny_Johar,Leonie_Watson
15:00:12 <oedipus> zakim, this is 2119
15:00:12 <Zakim> ok, oedipus; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM
15:00:16 <janina> zakim, this will be 2119
15:00:16 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM scheduled to start now
15:00:30 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
15:00:41 <Zakim> I notice WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)11:00AM has restarted
15:00:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, ??P20, Michael_Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita
15:00:56 <janina> zakim, who's here?
15:00:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, MichaelC, janina, JF, silvia, davidb, oedipus, MikeSmith, [tm], trackbot
15:01:00 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P20 is Janina_Sajka
15:01:15 <kliehm> kliehm has joined #html-a11y
15:01:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, ??P20, Michael_Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita
15:01:22 <Zakim> +Janina_Sajka; got it
15:01:43 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, MichaelC, janina, JF, silvia, davidb, oedipus, MikeSmith, [tm], trackbot
15:01:59 <MichaelC> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:00 <judy> judy has joined #html-a11y
15:02:07 <Zakim> +Judy
15:02:09 <Zakim> -Judy
15:02:31 <eric_carlson> eric_carlson has joined #html-a11y
15:02:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina_Sajka, Michael_Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita
15:02:53 <Zakim> +Judy
15:03:03 <Zakim> +Eric_Carlson
15:03:19 <Zakim> + +49.179.103.aaaa
15:04:30 <oedipus> zakim, aaaa is Marco_Ranon
15:04:30 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
15:04:40 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
15:04:40 <janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
15:04:40 <janina> agenda: this
15:04:40 <janina> agenda+ Subteam Reports: Media; Text; Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Bug Triage
15:04:40 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
15:04:41 <janina> agenda+ Other Business
15:04:43 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe for 12 May
15:04:45 <janina> agenda+ be done
15:04:55 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-a11y
15:05:03 <oedipus> zakim, 49.179.103.aaaa is Marco_Ranon
15:05:04 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '49.179.103.aaaa'
15:05:11 <oedipus> zakim, +49.179.103.aaaa is Marco_Ranon
15:05:11 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I do not recognize a party named '+49.179.103.aaaa'
15:05:24 <kliehm> scribe: Martin_Kliehm
15:05:36 <kliehm> scribenick: kliehm
15:05:56 <kliehm> zakim, move to agendum 1
15:05:56 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Subteam Reports: Media; Text; Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Bug Triage" taken up [from janina]
15:06:22 <kliehm> Issue-152?
15:06:22 <trackbot> ISSUE-152 does not exist
15:07:03 <kliehm> JF: Working on ISSUE 152 (http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/152)
15:07:11 <oedipus> issue-152?
15:07:11 <trackbot> ISSUE-152 does not exist
15:07:20 <judy> zakim, who's here?
15:07:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina_Sajka, Michael_Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita, Judy, Eric_Carlson, kliehm (muted)
15:07:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see cyns, eric_carlson, judy, kliehm, Zakim, RRSAgent, MichaelC, janina, JF, silvia, davidb, oedipus, MikeSmith, [tm], trackbot
15:07:59 <silvia> silvia has joined #html-a11y
15:08:07 <JF> Minutes from yesterday's media sub-team call: http://www.w3.org/2011/04/27-html-a11y-minutes.html 
15:09:07 <kliehm> JS: The chain of emails is confusing, working on multitrack with a change proposal. Most probably we'll be in time for Lst Call.
15:09:22 <oedipus> media subteam actions in tracker: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/products/2
15:09:54 <oedipus> all issues and all actions for media subgroup tracker: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/products/2/all
15:10:38 <kliehm> JS: There are all kinds of alternative media (text, sign language etc.). Several standards organizations expect the W3C to provide a canonical list for these formats.
15:11:17 <kliehm> s/Lst Call/Last Call/
15:11:35 <richardschwerdtfe> richardschwerdtfe has joined #html-a11y
15:11:51 <oedipus> details on product Text (all issues and actions for text subgroup) http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/products/5/all
15:12:01 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:12:10 <oedipus> action items for Text Alternatives subgroup: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/products/5
15:12:10 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - items
15:12:26 <richardschwerdtfe> I have to drop off in 20 minutes
15:12:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:13:05 <kliehm> JH: The text alternative sub-team met last Monday. Spent most of the meeting talking about @alt validation. Rich and I provided an example, had a good discussion on that. In result several sub-questions got clearer.
15:13:14 <JF> +q
15:13:15 <oedipus> s/JH:/JB:/
15:13:57 <janina>  q?
15:14:14 <kliehm> s/JH/JB/
15:14:34 <JF> ack JF
15:15:07 <kliehm> JB: People are drafting proposals for these sub-questions. We'll discuss them next Monday.
15:16:44 <kliehm> JB: Working on a clarification mail to avoid a Formal Objection. Gez working on @summary, others on other topics. WAI has taking up the question in which WG @alt validation lives.
15:17:07 <kliehm> JF: Have been working on a meta-generator proposal, half way there.
15:17:15 <oedipus> text alternatives call monday at 1530h UTC in channel #text, zakim bridge for 90 minutes
15:17:30 <janina> q?
15:17:49 <kliehm> JB: Would be good to achieve consensus among accessibility community before passing the results to the chairs.
15:18:08 <kliehm> Canvas Sub-Team report:
15:18:42 <oedipus> RichS on Bug 11239: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011AprJun/0024.html
15:19:13 <judy> s/Gez/Gregory/
15:19:59 <judy> q+
15:20:39 <oedipus> bug 11239 "Canvas support accessible caret tracking independent of Focus Ring tracking" http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11239
15:22:39 <kliehm> RS: Submitted a proposal to the chairs. Ian Hickson took many editorial freedoms, changed steps, added methods. Going through these changes takes a lot of time. My concern is: the editor apparently thinks he can edit the proposal without former consensus. There are so many technical inconsistencies, also accessibility flaws where he ignores expert knowledge like we've seen in the past.
15:23:28 <judy> s/mail to avoid a Formal Objection/mail; which would morph into a Formal Objection, though would be nice to be able to avoid that/ 
15:24:26 <oedipus> s/RichS on Bug 11239:/RichS on Bug 11239 and hixie's latest spec patch/
15:24:49 <oedipus> ack judy
15:24:50 <kliehm> JB: One of the aspects of the HTML WG process is commit, then review. It's an exception in the W3C process. This seems to be causing ongoing problems and cycles of additional work.
15:25:43 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minuts', oedipus.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:25:46 <kliehm> JB: Rich, you are noting some technical errors, is that in the editors' work or the chairs' work?
15:25:53 <kliehm> RS: Editors work.
15:27:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html oedipus
15:27:37 <judy> q+
15:27:39 <kliehm> RS: When the editor introduces his own body of work without consensus on the group it slows down the work in other activities within the Task Force and other WGs, for example SVG.
15:28:35 <judy> s/WAI has taking up/The WAI CG has taken up/
15:28:37 <judy> q-
15:28:59 <kliehm> JS: Communication often requires teleconferences, email is often insufficient. On the good side the media sub-group is an example where accessibility experts and browser engineers are working very well together.
15:29:35 <kliehm> s/email is often insufficient/email and IRC are often insufficient/
15:29:54 <JF> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11956
15:30:26 <judy> zakim, who's here?
15:30:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina_Sajka, Michael_Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita, Judy, Eric_Carlson, kliehm (muted), Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:30:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see richardschwerdtfe, eric_carlson, judy, kliehm, Zakim, RRSAgent, MichaelC, janina, JF, davidb, oedipus, MikeSmith, [tm], trackbot
15:30:31 <kliehm> GR: In a side note, role="presentation" on the body element is valid.
15:30:51 <judy> q+
15:31:13 <oedipus> s/on the body element is valid./on the body element is currently valid--SteveF has filed a bug to limit use of role="presentation"/
15:31:26 <oedipus> ack jud
15:34:31 <kliehm> JB: Macej put a huge amount of work into reviewing the comments on @alt, @figcaption is another candidate for such a review. The form of communication should be dialog rather than hierarchical decisions. We should watch the replies on the surveys closely.
15:34:39 <oedipus> often such things HAVE been discussed and exposed within HTML WG fora
15:35:38 <judy> q+
15:36:24 <kliehm> JS: The problem with the surveys is that we don't know what the chairs are thinking, so a seemingly repetition might point to a detail that is clear to us that might be overlooked to the chairs. We do not know the context of their decisions until they are made, then we see where more information would have been needed.
15:37:11 <judy> s/a huge amount of work/a huge amount of thoughtful work/
15:37:39 <JF> +q
15:37:44 <kliehm> Sub-team: ARIA mapping:
15:38:21 <kliehm> RS: We have to do more work on tangible canvas, clickable regions, but that's rather post Last Call.
15:38:32 <judy> s/@figcaption is another candidate for such a review/@figcaption was interesting because there were some new questions to explore./
15:38:38 <janina> q?
15:38:44 <janina> ack jf
15:38:49 <judy> q+
15:39:42 <oedipus> it still bothers me that the WHAT WG and W3C drafts diverge (they are, according to hixie, materially different)
15:39:48 <kliehm> JF: I am concerned about the bug that Steve filed [number?]
15:39:50 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
15:39:53 <judy> q-
15:39:58 <richardschwerdtfe> sorry, dropping off
15:40:06 <JF> steve's bug on role=presentation: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11956
15:40:23 <JF> Bug 11956 - restrict use of role=presentation
15:40:48 <oedipus> s/[number?]/bug 11956 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11956/
15:41:33 <kliehm> JB: There might be other issues that had been resolved but have been shifting afterwards. We need methods to monitor this.
15:42:11 <kliehm> JS: From time to time it might be necessary to re-read the whole spec.
15:43:10 <kliehm> JB: I believe there are a couple of weeks in the Last Call process to allow for re-reading of a stable version.
15:43:27 <oedipus> timeline to last call: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0074.html
15:44:03 <oedipus> "April 22, 2011 - all issues resolved; LC resolution presented to group Consequences of missing this date: this would be solely a failure by the chairs, so we would publicly eat crow and plot a new date."
15:44:05 <oedipus> (1 month)
15:44:07 <oedipus> "May 22, 2011 - fixable LC objections addressed; if all goes well, LC resolution carries Consequences of missing this date: try LC resolution again."
15:44:24 <JF> +q
15:46:21 <judy> judy thx gregory for the reminder of the timeline to last call schedule, and notes the explanations for april and may dates
15:47:03 <kliehm> TOPIC: Last Call Timeline
15:48:14 <kliehm> JB: I'm not speaking on behalf of the chairs, but I suggest that people look at the April 22 and May 22 date.
15:48:19 <janina> q?
15:48:23 <janina> ack jf
15:49:08 <kliehm> JF: Based on those two dates, it seems to me that they already missed on the April 22 date. We should request clarification on the date whether they have a revised agenda.
15:50:04 <oedipus> GJR notes that the only replies to the Timeline Announcement were replies from editors of HTML5 modules (including SteveF) confirming that their drafts will proceed in tandem with the main spec
15:50:25 <kliehm> JB: My impression is that they are very eager to meet those timelines. Regarding accessibility features there are still considerable concerns. I hope that clarification can address those concerns.
15:51:24 <oedipus> s/proceed in tandem with the main spec/proceed in tandem with the main spec or not/
15:53:09 <kliehm> JF: There are a number of objections, and I was wondering which of these will be addressed. I'm not making any reproaches, I'm just curious which dates apply.
15:54:46 <oedipus> GJR believes that he and leonie watson are supposed to do a comprehensive review of HTML5 forms
15:55:04 <judy> zakim, who's here?
15:55:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see John_Foliot, Janina_Sajka, Michael_Cooper, Gregory_Rosmaita, Judy, Eric_Carlson, kliehm (muted)
15:55:07 <Zakim> On IRC I see richardschwerdtfe, eric_carlson, judy, kliehm, Zakim, RRSAgent, MichaelC, janina, JF, davidb, oedipus, MikeSmith, [tm], trackbot
15:56:55 <oedipus> q+ to say the editor's draft is a constatnly moving target -- review latest editor's draft or latest PWD?
15:56:59 <oedipus> ack oe
15:56:59 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say the editor's draft is a constatnly moving target -- review latest editor's draft or latest PWD?
15:58:10 <kliehm> JB: Division into specific sections made it possible to review the spec in reasonable parts.
15:58:37 <kliehm> GR: The spec as a moving target is a problem.
15:58:44 <kliehm> JB: We will address this issue.
16:00:05 <kliehm> Steve Faulkner agreed to scribe next week, although a number of us are involved in aface-to-face meeting.
16:00:15 <Zakim> -Eric_Carlson
16:00:17 <Zakim> -Janina_Sajka
16:00:18 <Zakim> -Gregory_Rosmaita
16:00:19 <Zakim> -Judy
16:00:20 <kliehm> rrsagent, make minutes
16:00:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:00:21 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:00:24 <Zakim> -John_Foliot
16:01:30 <kliehm> s/[number?]/bug 11956/
16:01:34 <kliehm> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:02:59 <kliehm> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:03:32 <kliehm> rrsagent, please part
16:03:32 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
16:04:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
16:04:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-html-a11y-irc
16:04:54 <kliehm> rrsagent, make minutes
16:04:54 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:05:13 <janina> janina has left #html-a11y
16:09:09 <kliehm> present: John_Foliot Janina_Sajka Michael_Cooper Gregory_Rosmaita Judy_Brewer Eric_Carlson Martin_Kliehm Rich_Schwerdtfeger
16:09:16 <kliehm> rrsagent, make minutes
16:09:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:10:23 <kliehm> regrets- Silvia_Pfieffer
16:10:53 <kliehm> regrets+ Silvia_Pfeiffer
16:10:57 <kliehm> rrsagent, make minutes
16:10:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/28-html-a11y-minutes.html kliehm
16:11:35 <kliehm> rrsagent, please part
16:11:54 <kliehm> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
16:11:58 <kliehm> rrsagent, please part
16:11:58 <RRSAgent> I see no action items