15:49:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:49:15 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/26-rdb2rdf-irc
15:49:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:49:17 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:49:19 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:49:19 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
15:49:20 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:49:20 <trackbot> Date: 26 April 2011
15:49:27 <ivan> Chair: Ashok
15:54:41 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:54:49 <Zakim> + +49.112.8.aaaa
15:55:52 <alexdeleon> alexdeleon has joined #rdb2rdf
15:56:24 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
15:56:25 <alexdeleon> Zakim, list
15:56:25 <Zakim> I see XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, DIG_weekly()11:00AM, WS_SOAP-JM()12:00PM, SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM active
15:56:27 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM, RWC_WebEven()11:00AM, SW_HCLS(COI)11:00AM, SW_RIF()11:00AM, I18N_ITS IG()11:00AM, Team_(wf)15:02Z, HTML_WG(HTMLT)11:00AM,
15:56:30 <Zakim> ... VB_VBWG()10:00AM, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM
15:57:10 <Ashok> meeting:  RDB2RDF
15:57:17 <Ashok> chair:  Ashok
15:57:28 <ivan> ok
15:57:40 <Ashok> zakim, this will be RDB2RDF
15:57:40 <Zakim> ok, Ashok, I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM already started
15:58:09 <alexdeleon> Zakim, who is here?
15:58:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see +49.112.8.aaaa
15:58:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see Ashok, alexdeleon, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, MacTed, LeeF, betehess, iv_an_ru_, trackbot, ericP
15:58:31 <alexdeleon> Zakim, I am +49.112.8.aaaa
15:58:31 <Zakim> +alexdeleon; got it
15:59:45 <privera> privera has joined #RDB2RDF
16:00:19 <Ashok> regrets: Michael, Soeren, Souri, Marcelo
16:01:41 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
16:02:17 <Zakim> +??P10
16:02:20 <juansequeda> juansequeda has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:39 <Zakim> +dmcneil
16:02:42 <privera> +??P10 is privera
16:03:01 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:03:01 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:03:02 <Zakim> +Ivan
16:03:15 <Zakim> +juansequeda
16:03:17 <privera> privera  is ??P10
16:03:38 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:03:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see alexdeleon, Ashok_Malhotra, ??P10, dmcneil, Ivan, juansequeda
16:03:40 <Zakim> On IRC I see juansequeda, privera, Ashok, alexdeleon, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, MacTed, LeeF, betehess, iv_an_ru_, trackbot, ericP
16:03:56 <ivan> zakim, ??P10 is privera
16:03:56 <Zakim> +privera; got it
16:03:56 <privera> ??P10 is privera
16:04:02 <Ashok> present:  Ivan, Percy, Alex, Juan, David, 
16:04:08 <privera> Zakim mute me
16:04:14 <privera> Zakim, mute me
16:04:14 <Zakim> privera should now be muted
16:05:54 <Ashok> present+:  Ashok
16:06:05 <Ashok> zakim, pick a victim
16:06:05 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose dmcneil
16:07:03 <dmcneil> dmcneil has joined #RDB2RDF
16:07:25 <Ashok> scribe:  David
16:07:39 <ivan> scribenick: dmcneil 
16:07:40 <Ashok> scribenick: dmcneil
16:08:07 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/04/19-rdb2rdf-minutes.html last week's minutes
16:08:53 <Ashok> RESOLUTION:  Minutes for April 19 are approved
16:09:12 <Ashok> Topic: f2f
16:09:17 <dmcneil> ashok: need to discuss a face-to-face meeting
16:09:29 <dmcneil> who can summarize where we are and what to do?
16:09:41 <dmcneil> ivan: first question: do we need a f2f?
16:10:02 <dmcneil> ivan: if current timing is realistic then last call will be in summer time
16:10:18 <dmcneil> candidate recommendation will need to be in early autumn (?)
16:10:25 <dmcneil> ashok: seems reasonable
16:10:47 <dmcneil> ivan: a f2f to handle last call comments is an efficient way of dealing with them
16:11:01 <dmcneil> the answers/decisions need to be well documented
16:11:31 <dmcneil> planning a f2f in autumn makes sense if there will be a lot of last call comments... but nobody knows that
16:11:48 <dmcneil> TPAC is an obvious place to do a f2f: end of Oct in Santa Clara, CA
16:11:58 <dmcneil> would need to register for TPAC by end of this week
16:12:19 <dmcneil> problem is not many on the call today, nor last week, so hard to decide
16:13:05 <ivan> TPAC: Oct 31 - 01 or 03-04 November
16:13:14 <alexdeleon> I cannot confirm now
16:13:14 <Zakim> +EricP
16:13:41 <privera> kamin, unmute me
16:13:42 <dmcneil> who could come to TPAC for a f2f?
16:13:44 <dmcneil> ivan: yes
16:13:47 <dmcneil> juan: think so
16:13:49 <dmcneil> david: think so
16:13:51 <privera> Zakim, unmute me
16:13:51 <Zakim> privera should no longer be muted
16:14:15 <dmcneil> alex: timing is good, but cannot confirm right now
16:14:49 <dmcneil> eric: at risk, has a conflict
16:15:04 <privera> I cannot confirm now, first I need to talk with the department
16:15:06 <dmcneil> ivan: need to have at least one editor of both documents present
16:15:48 <dmcneil> ashok: maybe book the room and cancel if needed?
16:16:08 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
16:16:18 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:16:18 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
16:16:38 <Ashok> present+:  Eric, Ted
16:17:03 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:17:03 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:17:06 <dmcneil> ted: could maybe attend a TPAC f2f
16:17:47 <dmcneil> ivan: maybe send out an email and give people to Thursday to object
16:17:54 <dmcneil> ashok: will send out an email after the telecon
16:18:31 <Ashok> Topic:  Action Items
16:18:33 <Ashok> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/open
16:19:52 <dmcneil> ashok: will close ACTION-83
16:20:11 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:20:11 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:20:40 <dmcneil> ivan: re ACTION-101, looked at SemtTech London, but profile of the conference seemed different than SemTech San Francisco, much more business people oriented
16:22:10 <dmcneil> ashok: what about a database conference?
16:22:20 <ericP> enterprise data world was a couple weeks ago in chicago
16:23:18 <ericP> VDLB is 19 Aug
16:23:43 <ericP> http://kcap11.stanford.edu/
16:23:58 <ericP> KCAP 25-29 June
16:24:35 <Ashok> Eric will present paper on DM
16:25:21 <dmcneil> juan: marcello will be presenting at SIGMOD/PODS in Athens in June
16:25:38 <juansequeda> Marcelo will be giving an invited tutorial at SIGMOD/PODS on RDF/SPARQL. He will give a brief intro to RDB2RDF
16:25:48 <dmcneil> ashok: keep ACTION-101 open as an ongoing effort
16:26:31 <ivan> q+
16:26:43 <dmcneil> ACTION-102 will be kept open
16:27:00 <ivan> q-
16:27:08 <dmcneil> ashok: status of ??
16:27:23 <Zakim> +Alexandre
16:27:38 <dmcneil> ivan: from RDF working group columnization (?) issue is still open
16:27:57 <Ashok> present+: Alexandre
16:28:17 <dmcneil> working group will add to the semantics a sentence that says if a triplestore wants to columnize BNodes when exporting the data then we may have a proposed way of doing it
16:28:22 <dmcneil> two schemes being discussed
16:28:25 <dmcneil> 1) on HTTP
16:28:34 <ivan> http://example.org/.known-uri/{SOMETHING}
16:28:42 <Ashok> s/??/Action 102/
16:28:59 <ericP> well-known
16:29:02 <ericP> iirc
16:29:14 <ivan> http://example.org/.well-known/genid/{SOMETHING}
16:29:55 <dmcneil> ivan: could register the ".well-known/genid" part
16:30:50 <ivan> tag:example.org,2011:genid:SOMETHING
16:30:53 <ivan> skolemize
16:31:24 <dmcneil> above the word "columnize" should be "skolemize"
16:31:40 <ivan> urn:genid:XXXXX
16:31:53 <Ashok> ... refers to Skolem functions as a means of generating names
16:33:24 <dmcneil> ivan: might be good for this working group to express a need for something like the above
16:33:28 <ericP> q+
16:33:57 <ericP> ack me
16:33:59 <dmcneil> ashok: one of us could write something and send it to the RDF working group
16:34:11 <dmcneil> eric: we need to document our use case
16:34:48 <dmcneil> ashok: since you are on the RDF working group, could you draft a note for us?
16:35:26 <dmcneil> eric: to summarize the issue: we want to express rows in a database that we know to be volatile
16:35:43 <dmcneil> want to give them labels that we won't honor (i.e. resolve) but we want to talk about them outside of a particular graph
16:35:46 <dmcneil> but why?
16:36:09 <dmcneil> ashok: a requirement was to take parts of a graph and cut and paste it (e.g. combining graphs)
16:36:27 <dmcneil> eric: but to go to the RDF working group we need a more precise statement of what we need to do
16:36:58 <dmcneil> ivan: also need to make it clear why blank nodes cannot be used for the purpose
16:37:03 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:37:03 <Zakim> MacTed was not muted, MacTed
16:37:15 <dmcneil> ivan: once you skolemize they are not blank nodes
16:37:40 <dmcneil> ashok: looking for one or two people who can draft something for the RDF working group
16:37:50 <dmcneil> eric: can help refine it if someone else drafts it
16:37:58 <dmcneil> needs clarification on use case
16:39:10 <dmcneil> ted: a blank node is still a thing, if it does not have a portable identifier, then description data about it is unportable. The whole point of RDB2RDF is to make portable descriptions.
16:39:22 <ivan> q+
16:39:31 <betehess> not sure what "portable" means
16:40:40 <dmcneil> ivan: administrative point: tomorrow the RDF working group may decide this and we don't need to do anything
16:40:44 <ivan> q-
16:41:05 <dmcneil> perhaps the real issue is the need to generate URIs on the fly that are universally unique?
16:41:25 <dmcneil> blank nodes were used until now because that was an easy solution
16:41:57 <dmcneil> need a way to generate identifiers for HTTP, that allows them to be recognized as generated
16:42:43 <dmcneil> generating unique identifiers is different than skolemizing blank nodes
16:43:06 <betehess> q+ to ask how you compare these rows with such a mechanism
16:43:17 <dmcneil> so maybe we need to define a scheme for generating identifiers for rows (inspired by what the RDF working group is doing)
16:43:43 <dmcneil> ashok: ted will get help from eric on ACTION-102
16:43:54 <ivan> ack betehess 
16:43:54 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to ask how you compare these rows with such a mechanism
16:45:30 <ericP> { <s1> <p> 5 } == { <s2> <p> 5 } ?
16:45:41 <dmcneil> alex: if we use a URI instead of a blank node then if we have two graphs, there is not way to identify them as representing the same data
16:45:47 <dmcneil> since the URIs are just strings
16:45:54 <ericP> 'cuse { _:s1 <p> 5 } = { _:s2 <p> 5 }
16:46:02 <dmcneil> ivan: why not use blank nodes in this case? then the graphs will be isomorphic
16:46:08 <dmcneil> alex: that is why I want blank nodes
16:46:26 <dmcneil> ivan: then we need to discuss why not to use blank nodes
16:47:20 <dmcneil> ashok: move to open issues
16:47:48 <Ashok> Topic:  Open Issues
16:47:52 <Ashok> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/open
16:47:53 <dmcneil> ashok: email from david about closing ISSUE-25
16:49:08 <dmcneil> ivan: the R2RML spec is silent on the topic of what to do if there is no mapping specified for an RDB entity
16:49:21 <dmcneil> ivan: the decision is what to do if there is no mapping specified
16:49:22 <ericP> if the DM is either the default behavior or some user-selected behavior, R2RML needs a reference to DM
16:50:05 <dmcneil> ashok: we don't have a quorum to discuss this now
16:50:18 <dmcneil> should ask the editors of the R2RML spec to clarify this
16:50:25 <dmcneil> ivan: but what would the paragraph say?
16:50:30 <dmcneil> two options:
16:50:44 <dmcneil> 1) if column is not mapped, then produce no triple
16:50:54 <dmcneil> 2) is column is not mapped, then use the Direct Mapping
16:50:56 <ericP> q
16:51:13 <ericP> q+ to ask if we want to allow user-selected DM
16:52:25 <dmcneil> ivan: needs to be addressed by the working group, not simply by the editors
16:52:27 <juansequeda> It should be option 1
16:52:56 <ivan> ack ericP 
16:52:56 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if we want to allow user-selected DM
16:53:30 <dmcneil> eric: R2RML needs a reference to DM if it is either the default behavior or if the user can invoke the DM behavior
16:53:44 <dmcneil> ivan: this is all open, undecided
16:55:07 <betehess> so it's a tool feature, not a language feature
16:55:20 <dmcneil> ivan: another possibility is to realize the DM as an R2RML mapping, and then modify it
16:55:43 <dmcneil> eric: should only specify an R2RML mapping in DM if it is a tested part of the spec
16:56:25 <dmcneil> oh seems i misunderstood erics point
16:56:47 <dmcneil> eric: if users are to expect DM to be an option then R2RML spec needs to reference the DM spec (?)
16:57:11 <dmcneil> ashok: what if I have a huge database and only want to map part of it?
16:57:22 <dmcneil> ashok: our time is up
16:57:48 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
16:57:49 <Zakim> -Alexandre
16:57:49 <Zakim> -MacTed
16:57:50 <Zakim> -dmcneil
16:57:52 <Zakim> -alexdeleon
16:57:56 <Zakim> -privera
16:58:13 <Ashok> rrsagent, make logs public
16:58:23 <Ashok> rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/26-rdb2rdf-minutes.html Ashok
16:58:25 <Zakim> -juansequeda
16:58:57 <privera> privera has left #RDB2RDF
17:10:43 <ivan> zakim, drop me
17:10:43 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:10:45 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:10:46 <Zakim> -EricP
17:10:47 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
17:10:49 <Zakim> Attendees were +49.112.8.aaaa, alexdeleon, Ashok_Malhotra, dmcneil, Ivan, juansequeda, privera, EricP, MacTed, Alexandre
17:10:55 <ivan> trackbot, stop telcon
17:10:55 <trackbot> Sorry, ivan, I don't understand 'trackbot, stop telcon'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
17:11:07 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon
17:11:07 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:11:07 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:11:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:11:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/26-rdb2rdf-minutes.html trackbot
17:11:09 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:11:09 <RRSAgent> I see no action items