IRC log of rdb2rdf on 2011-04-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:49:15 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:49:15 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/26-rdb2rdf-irc
15:49:17 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs world
15:49:17 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:49:19 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:49:19 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
15:49:20 [trackbot]: Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:49:20 [trackbot]: Date: 26 April 2011
15:49:27 [ivan]: Chair: Ashok
15:54:41 [Zakim]: SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:54:49 [Zakim]: + +49.112.8.aaaa
15:55:52 [alexdeleon]: alexdeleon has joined #rdb2rdf
15:56:24 [Ashok]: Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
15:56:25 [alexdeleon]: Zakim, list
15:56:25 [Zakim]: I see XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, DIG_weekly()11:00AM, WS_SOAP-JM()12:00PM, SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM active
15:56:27 [Zakim]: also scheduled at this time are WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM, RWC_WebEven()11:00AM, SW_HCLS(COI)11:00AM, SW_RIF()11:00AM, I18N_ITS IG()11:00AM, Team_(wf)15:02Z, HTML_WG(HTMLT)11:00AM,
15:56:30 [Zakim]: ... VB_VBWG()10:00AM, T&S_XMLSEC()10:00AM
15:57:10 [Ashok]: meeting: RDB2RDF
15:57:17 [Ashok]: chair: Ashok
15:57:28 [ivan]: ok
15:57:40 [Ashok]: zakim, this will be RDB2RDF
15:57:40 [Zakim]: ok, Ashok, I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM already started
15:58:09 [alexdeleon]: Zakim, who is here?
15:58:09 [Zakim]: On the phone I see +49.112.8.aaaa
15:58:11 [Zakim]: On IRC I see Ashok, alexdeleon, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, MacTed, LeeF, betehess, iv_an_ru_, trackbot, ericP
15:58:31 [alexdeleon]: Zakim, I am +49.112.8.aaaa
15:58:31 [Zakim]: +alexdeleon; got it
15:59:45 [privera]: privera has joined #RDB2RDF
16:00:19 [Ashok]: regrets: Michael, Soeren, Souri, Marcelo
16:01:41 [Zakim]: +Ashok_Malhotra
16:02:17 [Zakim]: +??P10
16:02:20 [juansequeda]: juansequeda has joined #rdb2rdf
16:02:39 [Zakim]: +dmcneil
16:02:42 [privera]: +??P10 is privera
16:03:01 [ivan]: zakim, dial ivan-voip
16:03:01 [Zakim]: ok, ivan; the call is being made
16:03:02 [Zakim]: +Ivan
16:03:15 [Zakim]: +juansequeda
16:03:17 [privera]: privera is ??P10
16:03:38 [ivan]: zakim, who is here?
16:03:38 [Zakim]: On the phone I see alexdeleon, Ashok_Malhotra, ??P10, dmcneil, Ivan, juansequeda
16:03:40 [Zakim]: On IRC I see juansequeda, privera, Ashok, alexdeleon, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, MacTed, LeeF, betehess, iv_an_ru_, trackbot, ericP
16:03:56 [ivan]: zakim, ??P10 is privera
16:03:56 [Zakim]: +privera; got it
16:03:56 [privera]: ??P10 is privera
16:04:02 [Ashok]: present: Ivan, Percy, Alex, Juan, David,
16:04:08 [privera]: Zakim mute me
16:04:14 [privera]: Zakim, mute me
16:04:14 [Zakim]: privera should now be muted
16:05:54 [Ashok]: present+: Ashok
16:06:05 [Ashok]: zakim, pick a victim
16:06:05 [Zakim]: Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose dmcneil
16:07:03 [dmcneil]: dmcneil has joined #RDB2RDF
16:07:25 [Ashok]: scribe: David
16:07:39 [ivan]: scribenick: dmcneil
16:07:40 [Ashok]: scribenick: dmcneil
16:08:07 [ivan]: -> http://www.w3.org/2011/04/19-rdb2rdf-minutes.html last week's minutes
16:08:53 [Ashok]: RESOLUTION: Minutes for April 19 are approved
16:09:12 [Ashok]: Topic: f2f
16:09:17 [dmcneil]: ashok: need to discuss a face-to-face meeting
16:09:29 [dmcneil]: who can summarize where we are and what to do?
16:09:41 [dmcneil]: ivan: first question: do we need a f2f?
16:10:02 [dmcneil]: ivan: if current timing is realistic then last call will be in summer time
16:10:18 [dmcneil]: candidate recommendation will need to be in early autumn (?)
16:10:25 [dmcneil]: ashok: seems reasonable
16:10:47 [dmcneil]: ivan: a f2f to handle last call comments is an efficient way of dealing with them
16:11:01 [dmcneil]: the answers/decisions need to be well documented
16:11:31 [dmcneil]: planning a f2f in autumn makes sense if there will be a lot of last call comments... but nobody knows that
16:11:48 [dmcneil]: TPAC is an obvious place to do a f2f: end of Oct in Santa Clara, CA
16:11:58 [dmcneil]: would need to register for TPAC by end of this week
16:12:19 [dmcneil]: problem is not many on the call today, nor last week, so hard to decide
16:13:05 [ivan]: TPAC: Oct 31 - 01 or 03-04 November
16:13:14 [alexdeleon]: I cannot confirm now
16:13:14 [Zakim]: +EricP
16:13:41 [privera]: kamin, unmute me
16:13:42 [dmcneil]: who could come to TPAC for a f2f?
16:13:44 [dmcneil]: ivan: yes
16:13:47 [dmcneil]: juan: think so
16:13:49 [dmcneil]: david: think so
16:13:51 [privera]: Zakim, unmute me
16:13:51 [Zakim]: privera should no longer be muted
16:14:15 [dmcneil]: alex: timing is good, but cannot confirm right now
16:14:49 [dmcneil]: eric: at risk, has a conflict
16:15:04 [privera]: I cannot confirm now, first I need to talk with the department
16:15:06 [dmcneil]: ivan: need to have at least one editor of both documents present
16:15:48 [dmcneil]: ashok: maybe book the room and cancel if needed?
16:16:08 [Zakim]: +OpenLink_Software
16:16:18 [MacTed]: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
16:16:18 [Zakim]: +MacTed; got it
16:16:38 [Ashok]: present+: Eric, Ted
16:17:03 [MacTed]: Zakim, mute me
16:17:03 [Zakim]: MacTed should now be muted
16:17:06 [dmcneil]: ted: could maybe attend a TPAC f2f
16:17:47 [dmcneil]: ivan: maybe send out an email and give people to Thursday to object
16:17:54 [dmcneil]: ashok: will send out an email after the telecon
16:18:31 [Ashok]: Topic: Action Items
16:18:33 [Ashok]: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/open
16:19:52 [dmcneil]: ashok: will close ACTION-83
16:20:11 [MacTed]: Zakim, unmute me
16:20:11 [Zakim]: MacTed should no longer be muted
16:20:40 [dmcneil]: ivan: re ACTION-101, looked at SemtTech London, but profile of the conference seemed different than SemTech San Francisco, much more business people oriented
16:22:10 [dmcneil]: ashok: what about a database conference?
16:22:20 [ericP]: enterprise data world was a couple weeks ago in chicago
16:23:18 [ericP]: VDLB is 19 Aug
16:23:43 [ericP]: http://kcap11.stanford.edu/
16:23:58 [ericP]: KCAP 25-29 June
16:24:35 [Ashok]: Eric will present paper on DM
16:25:21 [dmcneil]: juan: marcello will be presenting at SIGMOD/PODS in Athens in June
16:25:38 [juansequeda]: Marcelo will be giving an invited tutorial at SIGMOD/PODS on RDF/SPARQL. He will give a brief intro to RDB2RDF
16:25:48 [dmcneil]: ashok: keep ACTION-101 open as an ongoing effort
16:26:31 [ivan]: q+
16:26:43 [dmcneil]: ACTION-102 will be kept open
16:27:00 [ivan]: q-
16:27:08 [dmcneil]: ashok: status of ??
16:27:23 [Zakim]: +Alexandre
16:27:38 [dmcneil]: ivan: from RDF working group columnization (?) issue is still open
16:27:57 [Ashok]: present+: Alexandre
16:28:17 [dmcneil]: working group will add to the semantics a sentence that says if a triplestore wants to columnize BNodes when exporting the data then we may have a proposed way of doing it
16:28:22 [dmcneil]: two schemes being discussed
16:28:25 [dmcneil]: 1) on HTTP
16:28:34 [ivan]: http://example.org/.known-uri/{SOMETHING}
16:28:42 [Ashok]: s/??/Action 102/
16:28:59 [ericP]: well-known
16:29:02 [ericP]: iirc
16:29:14 [ivan]: http://example.org/.well-known/genid/{SOMETHING}
16:29:55 [dmcneil]: ivan: could register the ".well-known/genid" part
16:30:50 [ivan]: tag:example.org,2011:genid:SOMETHING
16:30:53 [ivan]: skolemize
16:31:24 [dmcneil]: above the word "columnize" should be "skolemize"
16:31:40 [ivan]: urn:genid:XXXXX
16:31:53 [Ashok]: ... refers to Skolem functions as a means of generating names
16:33:24 [dmcneil]: ivan: might be good for this working group to express a need for something like the above
16:33:28 [ericP]: q+
16:33:57 [ericP]: ack me
16:33:59 [dmcneil]: ashok: one of us could write something and send it to the RDF working group
16:34:11 [dmcneil]: eric: we need to document our use case
16:34:48 [dmcneil]: ashok: since you are on the RDF working group, could you draft a note for us?
16:35:26 [dmcneil]: eric: to summarize the issue: we want to express rows in a database that we know to be volatile
16:35:43 [dmcneil]: want to give them labels that we won't honor (i.e. resolve) but we want to talk about them outside of a particular graph
16:35:46 [dmcneil]: but why?
16:36:09 [dmcneil]: ashok: a requirement was to take parts of a graph and cut and paste it (e.g. combining graphs)
16:36:27 [dmcneil]: eric: but to go to the RDF working group we need a more precise statement of what we need to do
16:36:58 [dmcneil]: ivan: also need to make it clear why blank nodes cannot be used for the purpose
16:37:03 [MacTed]: Zakim, unmute me
16:37:03 [Zakim]: MacTed was not muted, MacTed
16:37:15 [dmcneil]: ivan: once you skolemize they are not blank nodes
16:37:40 [dmcneil]: ashok: looking for one or two people who can draft something for the RDF working group
16:37:50 [dmcneil]: eric: can help refine it if someone else drafts it
16:37:58 [dmcneil]: needs clarification on use case
16:39:10 [dmcneil]: ted: a blank node is still a thing, if it does not have a portable identifier, then description data about it is unportable. The whole point of RDB2RDF is to make portable descriptions.
16:39:22 [ivan]: q+
16:39:31 [betehess]: not sure what "portable" means
16:40:40 [dmcneil]: ivan: administrative point: tomorrow the RDF working group may decide this and we don't need to do anything
16:40:44 [ivan]: q-
16:41:05 [dmcneil]: perhaps the real issue is the need to generate URIs on the fly that are universally unique?
16:41:25 [dmcneil]: blank nodes were used until now because that was an easy solution
16:41:57 [dmcneil]: need a way to generate identifiers for HTTP, that allows them to be recognized as generated
16:42:43 [dmcneil]: generating unique identifiers is different than skolemizing blank nodes
16:43:06 [betehess]: q+ to ask how you compare these rows with such a mechanism
16:43:17 [dmcneil]: so maybe we need to define a scheme for generating identifiers for rows (inspired by what the RDF working group is doing)
16:43:43 [dmcneil]: ashok: ted will get help from eric on ACTION-102
16:43:54 [ivan]: ack betehess
16:43:54 [Zakim]: betehess, you wanted to ask how you compare these rows with such a mechanism
16:45:30 [ericP]: { <s1> <p> 5 } == { <s2> <p> 5 } ?
16:45:41 [dmcneil]: alex: if we use a URI instead of a blank node then if we have two graphs, there is not way to identify them as representing the same data
16:45:47 [dmcneil]: since the URIs are just strings
16:45:54 [ericP]: 'cuse { _:s1 <p> 5 } = { _:s2 <p> 5 }
16:46:02 [dmcneil]: ivan: why not use blank nodes in this case? then the graphs will be isomorphic
16:46:08 [dmcneil]: alex: that is why I want blank nodes
16:46:26 [dmcneil]: ivan: then we need to discuss why not to use blank nodes
16:47:20 [dmcneil]: ashok: move to open issues
16:47:48 [Ashok]: Topic: Open Issues
16:47:52 [Ashok]: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/open
16:47:53 [dmcneil]: ashok: email from david about closing ISSUE-25
16:49:08 [dmcneil]: ivan: the R2RML spec is silent on the topic of what to do if there is no mapping specified for an RDB entity
16:49:21 [dmcneil]: ivan: the decision is what to do if there is no mapping specified
16:49:22 [ericP]: if the DM is either the default behavior or some user-selected behavior, R2RML needs a reference to DM
16:50:05 [dmcneil]: ashok: we don't have a quorum to discuss this now
16:50:18 [dmcneil]: should ask the editors of the R2RML spec to clarify this
16:50:25 [dmcneil]: ivan: but what would the paragraph say?
16:50:30 [dmcneil]: two options:
16:50:44 [dmcneil]: 1) if column is not mapped, then produce no triple
16:50:54 [dmcneil]: 2) is column is not mapped, then use the Direct Mapping
16:50:56 [ericP]: q
16:51:13 [ericP]: q+ to ask if we want to allow user-selected DM
16:52:25 [dmcneil]: ivan: needs to be addressed by the working group, not simply by the editors
16:52:27 [juansequeda]: It should be option 1
16:52:56 [ivan]: ack ericP
16:52:56 [Zakim]: ericP, you wanted to ask if we want to allow user-selected DM
16:53:30 [dmcneil]: eric: R2RML needs a reference to DM if it is either the default behavior or if the user can invoke the DM behavior
16:53:44 [dmcneil]: ivan: this is all open, undecided
16:55:07 [betehess]: so it's a tool feature, not a language feature
16:55:20 [dmcneil]: ivan: another possibility is to realize the DM as an R2RML mapping, and then modify it
16:55:43 [dmcneil]: eric: should only specify an R2RML mapping in DM if it is a tested part of the spec
16:56:25 [dmcneil]: oh seems i misunderstood erics point
16:56:47 [dmcneil]: eric: if users are to expect DM to be an option then R2RML spec needs to reference the DM spec (?)
16:57:11 [dmcneil]: ashok: what if I have a huge database and only want to map part of it?
16:57:22 [dmcneil]: ashok: our time is up
16:57:48 [Zakim]: -Ashok_Malhotra
16:57:49 [Zakim]: -Alexandre
16:57:49 [Zakim]: -MacTed
16:57:50 [Zakim]: -dmcneil
16:57:52 [Zakim]: -alexdeleon
16:57:56 [Zakim]: -privera
16:58:13 [Ashok]: rrsagent, make logs public
16:58:23 [Ashok]: rrsagent, make minutes
16:58:23 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/26-rdb2rdf-minutes.html Ashok
16:58:25 [Zakim]: -juansequeda
16:58:57 [privera]: privera has left #RDB2RDF
17:10:43 [ivan]: zakim, drop me
17:10:43 [Zakim]: Ivan is being disconnected
17:10:45 [Zakim]: -Ivan
17:10:46 [Zakim]: -EricP
17:10:47 [Zakim]: SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
17:10:49 [Zakim]: Attendees were +49.112.8.aaaa, alexdeleon, Ashok_Malhotra, dmcneil, Ivan, juansequeda, privera, EricP, MacTed, Alexandre
17:10:55 [ivan]: trackbot, stop telcon
17:10:55 [trackbot]: Sorry, ivan, I don't understand 'trackbot, stop telcon'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
17:11:07 [ivan]: trackbot, end telcon
17:11:07 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
17:11:07 [Zakim]: sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:11:08 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:11:08 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/26-rdb2rdf-minutes.html trackbot
17:11:09 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
17:11:09 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items