IRC log of forms on 2011-04-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:45:53 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
14:45:55 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
14:45:55 [Zakim]
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14:45:57 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be IA_XForms
14:45:57 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see IA_XForms()11:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes
14:45:58 [trackbot]
Meeting: Forms Working Group Teleconference
14:45:58 [trackbot]
Date: 13 April 2011
14:46:05 [Steven]
Chair: Steven
14:46:39 [Steven]
14:46:55 [Steven]
Steven has changed the topic to: Agenda:
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IA_XForms()11:00AM has now started
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+ +1.952.931.aaaa
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15:00:10 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
15:00:10 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:00:12 [Zakim]
15:00:46 [Steven]
zakim, aaaa is dmccreary
15:00:46 [Zakim]
+dmccreary; got it
15:00:52 [Steven]
zakim, [ip is alain
15:00:52 [Zakim]
+alain; got it
15:02:05 [Zakim]
+ +1.650.919.aabb
15:02:26 [ebruchez]
zakim, +1.650.919.aabb is ebruchez
15:02:26 [Zakim]
+ebruchez; got it
15:02:40 [Zakim]
+ +44.782.483.aacc
15:03:06 [Steven]
zakim, aacc is pfennell
15:03:06 [Zakim]
+pfennell; got it
15:03:10 [John_Boyer]
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15:03:31 [Steven]
Regrets: Leigh
15:03:36 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
15:04:17 [Steven]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:04:17 [Zakim]
On the phone I see alain, dmccreary, Steven, ebruchez, pfennell
15:04:34 [Zakim]
15:07:13 [John_Boyer]
scribe: John_Boyer
15:08:18 [John_Boyer]
Steven: At multilingual web conference organized by several in Pisa last week. Got opening slot on first day to give technical background e.g. content negotiation. Explained how to do it with generic XForms
15:08:25 [John_Boyer]
Dan: slides available?
15:08:35 [John_Boyer]
Steven: top link on my current home page
15:08:49 [Steven]
15:09:47 [John_Boyer]
Steven: Other announcements. CSS 2.1 is at Proposed Rec now, so it's now just a matter of member voting.
15:10:11 [John_Boyer]
Steven: We can now reference it in our specs
15:11:23 [John_Boyer]
Topic: Configurable delay for incremental
15:11:45 [John_Boyer]
Steven: Seems we don't have consensus on needing this as a feature
15:12:16 [John_Boyer]
Erik: Yes. Some people want to specify this cross-platform, but others don't agree (including me).
15:13:14 [John_Boyer]
Erik: delay seems unclear to users. John also mentioned that we want this to be settable once in a form for consistency
15:13:58 [John_Boyer]
Steven: You're saying that the delay should just be automatic, batching changes and showing them as the processor opportunity arises
15:15:00 [John_Boyer]
Erik: Yes, in submission case, if a submission is still in progress, then the following submission will just not go through
15:15:22 [John_Boyer]
Steven: The competing issue is just that we have two implementations so we may as well standardize
15:15:30 [John_Boyer]
Alain: Yes XSLTForms and Chiba
15:15:46 [unl]
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15:16:06 [John_Boyer]
Alain: Problem is with a first submission; we know it might take a while so we don't want it to go too quickly
15:16:55 [John_Boyer]
Alain: Need to wait a bit because once first submission is in progress, a subsequent one with meaningful data is prevented from running
15:17:16 [Zakim]
+ +1.307.544.aadd
15:17:30 [John_Boyer]
Steven: What about Erik's suggestion that processor heuristics can be used rather than form developer having to specify
15:17:34 [unl]
zakim, +1.307.544.aadd is me
15:17:34 [Zakim]
+unl; got it
15:17:59 [John_Boyer]
Alain: that's complex. If form developer knows a delay is needed, why can't he just specify it
15:18:27 [John_Boyer]
Steven: Understood, but why can't processor just do that without needing the form developer to code it
15:18:51 [John_Boyer]
Alain: the form developer may have to tune the form based on the server it is contacting
15:19:22 [John_Boyer]
Steven: Erik, you don't see the need for it, so what if it were defined as an optional feature, not required?
15:19:59 [John_Boyer]
Erik: It seems it would be worse to say exactly what this attribute does
15:20:10 [John_Boyer]
Erik: Is it a minimal delay or a maximum?
15:20:18 [John_Boyer]
Alain: minimum delay
15:21:36 [John_Boyer]
Steven: looking for consensus on an optional feature with a definition that everyone can live with
15:23:49 [John_Boyer]
John: seems that tuning would be specific to assumption of server, network AND client. that doesn't seem like it would be as generally useful
15:24:02 [John_Boyer]
Steven: But two implementers suggests there is still a use case
15:24:21 [John_Boyer]
Alain: my big issue is with an initial delay because there is no data to start with
15:24:52 [John_Boyer]
John: But why doesn't processor just wait a bit until there is some data?
15:25:21 [John_Boyer]
Steven: Let's put a real use case to it. You're typing a string and you want to gather a few characters at least before doing a submission
15:25:44 [John_Boyer]
Alain: Yes but we don't know how many characters. Maybe it's when the user stops typing briefly
15:25:53 [John_Boyer]
Steven: In that case you're really waiting for a pause
15:26:08 [John_Boyer]
alain: yes
15:26:55 [John_Boyer]
Steven: I'm just trying to compare that with similar experience from the past. We didn't trigger a value-changed until there was a pause. We had an internal definition of the puase
15:27:19 [John_Boyer]
Erik: This is exactly how we implemented. It makes sense to not dispatch events while the user is actively typing.
15:28:14 [John_Boyer]
Erik: And if you keep typing for 3 minutes, then we can still override and do a submission.
15:28:35 [John_Boyer]
Erik: There are multiple kinds of delays, a maximum delay, a pause delay, a minimum delay.
15:28:45 [John_Boyer]
Erik: It would become very complicated to specify them all.
15:28:58 [John_Boyer]
Alain: Also may not be the same for all controls.
15:29:23 [John_Boyer]
Alain: For some controls we need a minimal delay, for others not, for others a different minimal delay due to differences in the actions.
15:30:08 [John_Boyer]
Erik: Some incrementals we want to fire after every keystroke, others we want on a pause, etc.
15:31:09 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer: if we squat on the name delay, even as optional feature, then we limit the possibility to define the other kinds of delays later
15:31:41 [John_Boyer]
Steven: I'd rather do it heuristically, but was also hoping we could do an optional feature that enables what implementers have already done
15:31:52 [John_Boyer]
Erik: Seems like we don't like optional features
15:32:03 [John_Boyer]
Steven: True although optional features help build consensus
15:32:19 [John_Boyer]
Steven: We do have some optional features
15:32:30 [John_Boyer]
John: Like appearance
15:32:33 [Zakim]
+ +1.443.837.aaee
15:32:42 [Zakim]
15:33:15 [Steven]
zakim, aaee is Kurt
15:33:15 [Zakim]
+Kurt; got it
15:33:23 [ebruchez]
just got dropped, calling back in
15:33:37 [Zakim]
15:34:27 [John_Boyer]
Steven: looking for a consensus?
15:34:57 [nick]
zakim, code?
15:34:57 [Zakim]
the conference code is 93676 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), nick
15:35:09 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer: Any thought toward naming it differently, e.g. mindelay so we don't squat on the name for other delay types?
15:35:29 [John_Boyer]
Steven: May not solve the problems; current implementations use delay
15:35:45 [Zakim]
15:36:13 [nick]
zakim pointer?
15:36:18 [John_Boyer]
Kurt: I don't think we should change the name from delay, used by current implementations
15:36:37 [nick]
zakim, help
15:36:37 [Zakim]
Please refer to for more detailed help.
15:36:39 [Zakim]
Some of the commands I know are:
15:36:41 [Zakim]
xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
15:36:44 [Zakim]
if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
15:36:46 [Zakim]
xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
15:36:47 [John_Boyer]
Steven: Proposal we adopt delay as optional feature
15:36:49 [Zakim]
I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
15:36:52 [Zakim]
xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
15:36:54 [Zakim]
xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
15:36:57 [Zakim]
who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
15:37:00 [Zakim]
who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
15:37:03 [Zakim]
mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
15:37:05 [Zakim]
unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
15:37:08 [Zakim]
is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
15:37:11 [Zakim]
list conferences - reports the active conferences
15:37:12 [Zakim]
this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
15:37:14 [Zakim]
excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
15:37:16 [Zakim]
I last learned something new on $Date: 2010/03/15 18:49:04 $
15:38:49 [John_Boyer]
Proposal: Adopt optional feature delay attribute that specifies minimal delay in milliseconds with implementation specific default
15:38:57 [nick]
rrsagent, pointer
15:38:57 [RRSAgent]
15:39:23 [John_Boyer]
anywhere you can use incremental
15:40:20 [John_Boyer]
RESOLUTION: Add delay attribute to all form controls that support incremental, optional to implement, defining minimal delay in milliseconds with implementation-specific default
15:40:40 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
15:40:40 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
15:41:37 [John_Boyer]
ACTION: Steven to help Alain get to his action items
15:41:37 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Steven
15:41:37 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. steven, spembert)
15:42:25 [John_Boyer]
ACTION: Pembo to help Alain get to his action items online
15:42:25 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1789 - Help Alain get to his action items online [on Steven Pemberton - due 2011-04-20].
15:42:52 [John_Boyer]
ACTION: Alain to create wiki spec for min delay attribute for XForms 1.2
15:42:52 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1790 - Create wiki spec for min delay attribute for XForms 1.2 [on Alain Couthures - due 2011-04-20].
15:43:02 [dmccreary]
15:43:14 [John_Boyer]
Topic: Annotations and Tree Controls (Text Annotations)
15:43:49 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: A couple of implementations have extended textarea to allow richtext, html, bold italic etc.
15:44:08 [Zakim]
15:44:12 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: Some want to go deeper into text annotations.
15:44:31 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: Not just a simple tag added to textarea.
15:45:24 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: By adding some tags, a textarea could handle mixed content. A tag to get richtext is not that hard, and there are several implementations.
15:46:07 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: Interested in consistency across implementations and extending beyond just richtext.
15:47:14 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: Everyone familiar with TEI? Standard for encoding people, places, dates, geolocations. A vocabulary for annotations, over 500 tags. Profiles for which tags to use depending on what you're annotating (scripts, plays, etc.)
15:47:39 [Steven]
Sounds as if it is related to RDFa
15:47:53 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: Some want to improve faceted search over the content by enabling annotations.
15:48:40 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: open source, several humanities interests are adopting
15:49:14 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: does this have merit? Several weeks ago, members agreed it has merit but lives outside of XForms and overlaps other W3C interests
15:49:48 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: how to configure an editor to have a toolbar to allow selecting text and applying an annotation
15:50:16 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer: Can the alternate content be characterized by a mimtype or mediatype?
15:50:51 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: Good question, not entirely. several profiles apply to content type
15:51:18 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer: What about if you include a mime parameter, e.g. text/html; profile="blat"?
15:51:46 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: that could work. people are just saying that they want to provide the schema and build an editor around it
15:54:18 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer: Reason I ask is that attaching mediatype attribute to textarea is typically used to indicate what extension content it will edit, and if the TEI profiles could be identified by mime parameter, then it would be easier to create custom extension editors around a textarea
15:54:47 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: that would work for 90% case
15:55:01 [John_Boyer]
Steven: The more complex cases sound a little like research
15:55:16 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: I agree
15:55:29 [John_Boyer]
Steven: Looks like HTML editing is a clear and present use case
15:56:35 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: Has anyone seen difficulty of interoperability between html text editing based on various richtext controls?
15:56:55 [John_Boyer]
Erik: We used to use CKEditor and now use YUI editor
15:57:26 [John_Boyer]
Erik: Just the default toolbar of the editor is provided
15:57:50 [John_Boyer]
Steven: so just paragraph, bold, italic, links, etc but not complicated stuff like iframe etc.
15:58:29 [John_Boyer]
Steven: Dan, are you saying that if we said we could edit HTML with a textarea that we would have to specify what specific HTML is allowed?
15:58:45 [John_Boyer]
dmcreary: Yes, that's the quagmire we have now
15:59:27 [ebruchez]
Here is the default we have:
16:01:30 [John_Boyer]
John_Boyer: We found we had to define a strict profile of HTML so we could get content interoperability across multiple rich text editing controls.
16:02:31 [John_Boyer]
ACTION: dmcreary to create strawman proposals for how to deal with enriched content for textarea and for profile of HTML
16:02:31 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - dmcreary
16:02:49 [nick]
list participants
16:03:04 [Steven]
zakim, list participants
16:03:05 [John_Boyer]
ACTION: Dan to create strawman proposals for how to deal with enriched content textarea and for profile of HTML to be supported
16:03:05 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been [IPcaller], +1.952.931.aaaa, Steven, dmccreary, alain, ebruchez, +44.782.483.aacc, pfennell, John_Boyer, unl, +1.443.837.aaee, Kurt,
16:03:05 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-1791 - Create strawman proposals for how to deal with enriched content textarea and for profile of HTML to be supported [on Dan McCreary - due 2011-04-20].
16:03:07 [Zakim]
... Nick_van_den_Bleeken
16:03:23 [Zakim]
16:03:24 [Zakim]
16:03:24 [Zakim]
16:03:25 [Zakim]
16:03:25 [Zakim]
16:03:27 [Zakim]
16:03:28 [Zakim]
16:03:34 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
16:03:38 [alain]
alain has left #forms
16:03:40 [Steven]
zakim, who is here?
16:03:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Nick_van_den_Bleeken
16:03:57 [Zakim]
On IRC I see John_Boyer, pfennell, dmccreary, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, ebruchez, nick, trackbot
16:04:01 [Zakim]
16:04:05 [Zakim]
IA_XForms()11:00AM has ended
16:04:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were [IPcaller], +1.952.931.aaaa, Steven, dmccreary, alain, ebruchez, +44.782.483.aacc, pfennell, John_Boyer, unl, +1.443.837.aaee, Kurt, Nick_van_den_Bleeken
16:46:54 [ebruchez]
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