IRC log of ua on 2011-04-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:24:47 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:24:47 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-ua-irc
16:24:49 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:24:49 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #ua
16:24:51 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:24:51 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 36 minutes
16:24:52 [trackbot]: Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:24:52 [trackbot]: Date: 07 April 2011
16:31:52 [JAllan]: agenda+ Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110405/results
16:32:04 [JAllan]: Chair: JimAllan
16:32:12 [JAllan]: Regrets: KFord
16:59:57 [jeanne]: jeanne has joined #ua
17:00:30 [Zakim]: WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:37 [Zakim]: +Jim
17:00:41 [Greg]: Greg has joined #ua
17:00:57 [Jan]: Jan has joined #ua
17:01:15 [Zakim]: + +1.425.895.aaaa
17:01:20 [Jan]: zakim, code?
17:01:20 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan
17:01:25 [Greg]: zakim, aaaa is me
17:01:25 [Zakim]: +Greg; got it
17:01:47 [Zakim]: +[IPcaller]
17:02:08 [Jan]: zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:02:08 [Zakim]: +Jan; got it
17:03:01 [Zakim]: + +1.617.325.aabb
17:03:25 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
17:04:26 [sharper]: sharper has joined #ua
17:04:32 [jeanne]: zakim, who is here?
17:04:32 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Jim, Greg, Jan, +1.617.325.aabb, Jeanne
17:04:33 [Zakim]: On IRC I see sharper, Jan, Greg, jeanne, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
17:04:45 [sharper]: zakim, code
17:04:45 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'code', sharper
17:04:47 [KimPatch]: KimPatch has joined #ua
17:04:53 [sharper]: zakim, code?
17:04:53 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
17:04:57 [jeanne]: regrets: kelly
17:05:54 [Zakim]: +??P10
17:06:31 [sharper]: zakim, ??P10 is sharper
17:06:31 [Zakim]: +sharper; got it
17:07:59 [Greg]: zakim, aabb is KimPatch
17:07:59 [Zakim]: +KimPatch; got it
17:09:03 [JAllan]: new editors draft 6 April link from home page
17:09:37 [JAllan]: UA Wiki http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/
17:09:48 [mhakkinen]: mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:10:02 [JAllan]: GL 2.7 in the Wiki http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/work/wiki/Guideline_2.7
17:10:16 [jeanne]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110406/
17:10:35 [jeanne]: new Editors' Draft -- http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-UAAG20-20110406/
17:12:37 [mhakkinen]: irc for now.
17:12:51 [JAllan]: quick update on Focus from Greg and Kim
17:13:59 [JAllan]: propose half day meeting
17:15:24 [JAllan]: start at regular time and meet later,
17:16:09 [JAllan]: any conflicts on 28th
17:17:44 [jeanne]: 12-4 Boston, 11-3 Central, 9-1 Pacific, 5-9 UK
17:18:44 [JAllan]: zakim, agenda?
17:18:44 [Zakim]: I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
17:18:46 [Zakim]: 1. Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110405/results [from JAllan]
17:19:48 [JAllan]: convention for wiki: >>name, date: some comment
17:20:11 [Greg]: <<Greg 2011-04-07: This is a sample comment.>>
17:21:24 [JAllan]: zakim, open item 1
17:21:24 [Zakim]: agendum 1. "Survey http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110405/results" taken up [from JAllan]
17:23:45 [JAllan]: topic 2.7.1 Discover navigation and activation keystrokes
17:26:05 [JAllan]: gl: also working on focus, related to 2.7
17:26:55 [Greg]: 2.3.3 Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content [former 2.1.6, before that 4.1.6, also 2.7.1, minor change] (Level A)
17:26:57 [Greg]: [The only change to 2.1.6 was taking out the inline examples, which were already in the list of bulleted examples. 2.1.6 and 2.7.1 were highly overlapping: 2.1.6 was "2.1.6 (former 4.1.6) Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content: The user can have any recognized direct commands (e.g. accesskey) in rendered content be presented with their associated elements (e.g. "[Ctrl+t]" displayed...
17:26:59 [Greg]: ...after a link whose accesskey value is "t", or an audio browser reading the value or label of a form control followed by "accesskey control plus t"). (Level A) ", while 2.7.1 was "2.7.1 (former 4.7.7) Discover navigation and activation keystrokes: Direct navigation and activation keystrokes are discoverable both programmatically and via perceivable labels. (Level A)". The part of 2.7.1...
17:27:00 [Greg]: ...about programmatically belongs under Principle 4 Programmatic Access, not here.]
17:27:02 [Greg]: The user can have any recognized direct commands (e.g. accesskey) in rendered content be presented with their associated elements (Level A)
17:27:04 [Greg]: Intent of Success Criterion 2.1.6 (former 4.1.6):
17:27:06 [Greg]: •Make it easy to for users to discover or be reminded of keyboard shortcuts and similar commands without leaving the context in which they're working. Easy keyboard access is especially important for people who cannot easily use a mouse.
17:27:10 [Greg]: Examples of Success Criterion 2.1.6 (former 4.1.6):
17:27:12 [Greg]: •"[Ctrl+t]" displayed after a link whose accesskey value is "t".
17:27:14 [Greg]: •An audio browser reading the value or label of a form control followed by "accesskey control plus t").
17:27:16 [Greg]: •Mnemonic letters in menu titles are shown with an underline. @@ Editors' Note: comment - applicable shortcut indicated or otherwise highlighted@@
17:27:19 [Greg]: Related Resources for Success Criterion 2.1.6 (former 4.1.6):
17:27:21 [Greg]: •To be written
17:30:22 [Greg]: The actual SC buried in all that was:
17:30:24 [Greg]: 2.3.3 Present Direct Commands in Rendered Content: The user can have any recognized direct commands (e.g. accesskey) in rendered content be presented with their associated elements (Level A)
17:32:28 [JAllan]: jr: agree that 2.7.1 should be merged with 2.1.6
17:32:44 [JAllan]: gl: we kept 2.17
17:33:55 [JAllan]: action: GregL to write a proposal for merging 2.7.1 and 2.1.6
17:33:55 [trackbot]: Sorry, couldn't find user - GregL
17:34:08 [JAllan]: action: Greg to write a proposal for merging 2.7.1 and 2.1.6
17:34:08 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-520 - Write a proposal for merging 2.7.1 and 2.1.6 [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-04-14].
17:34:52 [JAllan]: topic: 2.7.2 Access Relationships
17:37:35 [JAllan]: jr: what is explicitly define relationship, html table headers seem implicit
17:37:52 [JAllan]: sh: <th> seems to be explict
17:38:25 [JAllan]: jr: when there are label type relationships.
17:39:07 [JAllan]: with html5 and ARIA there are more explicit relationships
17:39:56 [JAllan]: gl: example of explicit defined relationships we don't want exposed
17:40:25 [JAllan]: ... text insertion point in text with header pages above
17:40:35 [JAllan]: scribe: jallan
17:40:39 [Greg]: That is, can we come up with examples of explicitly defined relationships that we expect the user agent to expose somehow (in order to comply with this SC) and others that we don't intend to require?
17:41:10 [Greg]: Examples of explicit relationships would include Labels, also headings that in a sense label all the content below them, page titles...?
17:41:32 [Greg]: Between a link and its destination?
17:43:14 [JAllan]: we are looking at 'id', child elements, others
17:44:20 [JAllan]: gl: what does 'access' mean...is it expose/view or navigate
17:44:37 [Greg]: "Access" explicitly-defined relationships doesn't make clear whether this means the user agent is required to let users view those relationships, or navigate by them, or both. (from survey)
17:45:13 [JAllan]: jr: label is expicit, table header need to be exposed
17:45:51 [JAllan]: gl: so if table headers are not hidden or moved off screen, does that comply?
17:46:17 [JAllan]: gl: screen could make headers available to user
17:46:36 [JAllan]: sh: screen magnifier users may need it.
17:47:27 [JAllan]: gl: user interface you envision, some keyboard command would popup a dialog box that gives the relationships to the user
17:47:44 [Zakim]: -Jan
17:48:26 [JAllan]: sh: want some cognitive meaning from the relationship.
17:48:42 [JAllan]: gl: relationship is the context of the content
17:48:58 [Zakim]: +Mark_Hakkinen
17:49:50 [Greg]: So, Simon interpreted the SC as essentially that the user agent provides a keyboard command that presents the label of the element that has the keyboard focus. Correct?
17:50:15 [Greg]: Labeling interpreted broadly, including elements with the LabeledBy relationship, table column and row headings, etc.
17:53:09 [JAllan]: gl: table headers are explicit and implicit.
17:54:11 [JAllan]: ja: brings up 'headers' and 'id' for table
17:54:54 [JAllan]: gl: is explicit the same as programatically determinable
17:56:57 [Greg]: I hear general agreement that the SC is unclear as currently written, and needs to be reworked to clarify and narrow its meaning.
17:57:04 [Zakim]: -Jeanne
17:57:40 [Zakim]: -sharper
17:57:45 [sharper]: sharper has left #ua
17:58:31 [jeanne]: I'm on a quick call with Judy, I'll be back shortly.
18:02:27 [JAllan]: mh: good case for explicit exposing the relationship to the user
18:02:35 [JAllan]: gl: several issues
18:02:47 [JAllan]: ...need to rewrite SC to make it clearer
18:03:01 [JAllan]: ...presentation vs navigation to relationship
18:03:32 [JAllan]: ...explicit - need a different term,
18:04:19 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
18:04:58 [JAllan]: gl: could use 'recognized' or 'recognizable' in place of explicitly defined
18:04:58 [jeanne]: s/I'm on a quick call with Judy, I'll be back shortly. /
18:06:12 [Greg]: So to sum up issues with the SC's current wording, we need to rephrase to (a) clear up whether it's making information perceivable vs. navigating based on it, (b) the term "explicit" could be replaced by "recognized" as we do throughout the rest of the document, (c) ...?
18:06:53 [Greg]: (c) which types of relationships are we requiring, because documents like HTML define many, many relationships.
18:07:58 [JAllan]: it seems we are talking about exposing the information to the user. the UA takes care of the navigation
18:08:19 [Greg]: "The user can have presented to them contextual information about an element, including recognized labels" ?
18:09:10 [Greg]: (I was going to say the element with the keyboard focus, but Simon's example of getting information by hovering makes it clear it should be broader.)
18:10:05 [Greg]: "The user can have presented to them contextual information about an element, including recognized labels and descriptions."
18:10:30 [Greg]: "The user can have presented to them contextual information about an element, including recognized labels, descriptions, and alternative content."
18:10:46 [JAllan]: mh: could be aria-describedby or longdesc
18:10:57 [Greg]: "The user can have contextual information about an element presented to them, including recognized labels, descriptions, and alternative content."
18:11:12 [JAllan]: ja: loose the clause.
18:11:35 [JAllan]: s/loose/lose
18:12:20 [Greg]: If we were to take out the list of minimum required info ("recognized labels, descriptions, and alternative content") would we be leaving it open for a user agent to claim compliance with a pretty useless implementation, that just gave something like the line number of the element in the source code?
18:12:55 [Greg]: I think if there's a minimum set, we should explicitly list them.
18:13:16 [mhakkinen]: +1 to including ...
18:14:02 [Greg]: "The user can have recognized contextual information about an element presented to them, including labels, descriptions, and alternative content."
18:15:47 [Greg]: What about headings, as in "The user can have contextual information about an element presented to them, including recognized labels, descriptions, headings, and alternative content."
18:17:02 [JAllan]: gl: use 'headings map' extension to keep track of where I am in a document
18:17:37 [Greg]: "The user can have contextual information about an element presented to them, including recognized labels, descriptions, headings, and alternative content."
18:19:24 [Greg]: Title of "Present context information?"
18:19:34 [JAllan]: Intent
18:19:35 [JAllan]: HTML controls and elements are sometimes grouped together to make up a composite control; certain elements relate to others in a recognizable manned. This is the case with Ajax widgets and with form elements. By making sure the user can be informed about these relationships means that, say, visually disabled users can better understand these relationships even if the elements are not...
18:19:37 [JAllan]: ...adjacent on the screen or the DOM.
18:20:18 [Greg]: Present relationships and context?
18:21:27 [Greg]: This belongs under Principle 1 Perceivable.
18:25:16 [JAllan]: HTML controls and elements are sometimes grouped together to make up a composite control; certain elements relate to others in a recognizable manner, such as realtionships with 'id' attributes and child elements.d.
18:25:39 [Greg]: Gerald is navigating through a lengthy, complex table. He invokes a "Show element properties" command from the element's context menu, which displays a pop-up box giving the current cell's row and column headings, its row and column numbers, and the headings that provide its context in the document.
18:27:49 [JAllan]: kp: anything that saves steps and provides context, making navigation easier helps
18:27:57 [Greg]: (I once wrote a set of Word macros to do this, as requested by a blind coworker, but I suspect screen readers may routinely do this today. Still, it could be quite useful for users of screen enlargers and others.)
18:28:05 [jeanne]: John has low vision and uses a screen magnifier to access his Browser. John is navigating through a lengthy, complex table. He invokes a "Show element properties" command from the element's context menu, which displays a pop-up box giving the current cell's row and column headings, its row and column numbers, and the headings that provide its context in the document.
18:30:06 [JAllan]: HTML controls and elements are sometimes grouped together to make up a composite control; certain elements relate to others in a recognizable manner, such as relationships with 'id' attributes and child elements. This is the case with Ajax widgets and with form elements. By making sure the user can be informed about these relationships means that, say, visually disabled users can better...
18:30:08 [JAllan]: ...understand these relationships even if the elements are not adjacent on the screen or the DOM.
18:33:46 [Greg]: Suggest changing Guideline 1.11 Provide link information, to be Guideline 1.11 Provide element information, and add this one to it.
18:34:44 [Greg]: It would then have two success criteria, 1.11.1 Present Link Information, and 1.11.2 Present relationships and context.
18:36:48 [JAllan]: In a long document, having the nearest previous heading revealed would help users, who have some cognitive issues, orient to the document
18:37:11 [Greg]: For the intent, could start with "Some users have difficulty perceiving, remembering, or understand the relationships between elements and their contexts."
18:38:11 [Zakim]: -KimPatch
18:39:04 [JAllan]: Some users have difficulty perceiving, remembering, or understand the relationships between elements and their contexts. HTML controls and elements are sometimes grouped together to make up a composite control; certain elements relate to others in a recognizable manner, such as relationships with 'id' attributes and child elements. This is the case with Ajax widgets and with form elements....
18:39:05 [JAllan]: ...By making sure the user can be informed about these relationships means that, say, visually disabled users can better understand these relationships even if the elements are not adjacent on the screen or the DOM.
18:40:50 [jeanne]: action: jeanne to update document to move 2.7.2 to 1.11.2 using the text in the wiki.
18:40:51 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-521 - Update document to move 2.7.2 to 1.11.2 using the text in the wiki. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-04-14].
18:41:45 [jeanne]: action: jeanne to update document changing the text of Guideline 1.11 as stated in wiki.
18:41:45 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-522 - Update document changing the text of Guideline 1.11 as stated in wiki. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-04-14].
18:46:38 [Greg]: Tools for converting to and from Wikimedia format: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Tools/Editing_tools#From_Microsoft_Word_or_OpenOffice
18:47:34 [Zakim]: -Mark_Hakkinen
18:47:35 [Zakim]: -Jim
18:47:43 [mhakkinen]: mhakkinen has left #ua
18:47:44 [Zakim]: -Greg
18:47:53 [JAllan]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:47:53 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:48:04 [JAllan]: rrsagent, set logs public
18:48:20 [JAllan]: zakim, please leave
18:48:21 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jim, +1.425.895.aaaa, Greg, Jan, +1.617.325.aabb, Jeanne, sharper, KimPatch, Mark_Hakkinen
18:48:21 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #ua
18:48:31 [JAllan]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:48:31 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:49:17 [JAllan]: present: Greg, Kim, Jeanne, Simon, Jim, Mark, Jan
18:50:00 [JAllan]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:50:00 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-ua-minutes.html JAllan
18:50:20 [JAllan]: rrsagent, please part
18:50:20 [RRSAgent]: I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-ua-actions.rdf :
18:50:20 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: GregL to write a proposal for merging 2.7.1 and 2.1.6 [1]
18:50:20 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-ua-irc#T17-33-55
18:50:20 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Greg to write a proposal for merging 2.7.1 and 2.1.6 [2]
18:50:20 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-ua-irc#T17-34-08
18:50:20 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jeanne to update document to move 2.7.2 to 1.11.2 using the text in the wiki. [3]
18:50:20 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-ua-irc#T18-40-50
18:50:20 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jeanne to update document changing the text of Guideline 1.11 as stated in wiki. [4]
18:50:20 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-ua-irc#T18-41-45