13:44:11 RRSAgent has joined #lld 13:44:11 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-lld-irc 13:44:26 Meeting: LLD XG 13:44:32 Chair: Emma 13:45:11 zakim, this will be LLD 13:45:11 ok, emma_; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 15 minutes 13:45:41 rrsagent, bookmark 13:45:41 See http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-lld-irc#T13-45-41 13:45:51 rrsagent, please make record public 13:46:25 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Apr/0000.html 13:46:50 Previous: 2011-03-31 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html 13:48:12 Regrets: Monica, Jodi, Ed, Ray, Gordon, Lars, Uldis, Kai 13:48:17 hello, is there anywhere a one (long) page that contains the full document? to make it easier to print and read it all, to give comments 13:49:19 rrsagent, please draft minutes 13:49:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-lld-minutes.html emma_ 13:49:26 emma_: ok, thanks for the info 13:50:23 rrsagent, please make record public 13:51:16 Regrets+: Joachim 13:52:10 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started 13:52:17 + +33.1.44.78.aaaa 13:52:23 zakim, aaaa is me 13:52:23 +emma_; got it 13:53:03 ww has joined #lld 13:53:41 antoine has joined #lld 13:54:15 +??P1 13:54:18 rsinger has joined #lld 13:54:39 zakim, ??P1 13:54:39 I don't understand '??P1', antoine 13:54:45 zakim, ??P1 is me 13:54:45 +antoine; got it 13:54:53 TomB has joined #lld 13:55:35 +rsinger 13:55:45 rrsagent, please draft minutes 13:55:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-lld-minutes.html antoine 13:55:59 do we have a scribe? 13:56:02 +??P4 13:56:19 zakim, ??P4 is TomB 13:56:19 +TomB; got it 13:56:22 +[IPcaller] 13:56:25 @ross : no, you're welcome to volunteer ;-) 13:56:31 emma_: yeah, i'll do it 13:56:40 Is the call set up? 13:56:43 zakim, IPcaller is dvilasuero 13:56:43 +dvilasuero; got it 13:56:48 great, thanks Ross 13:56:54 Scribe: Ross 13:57:00 np 13:57:00 zakim, mute me 13:57:00 dvilasuero should now be muted 13:57:06 scribenick: rsinger 13:58:22 pmurray has joined #lld 13:58:36 kefo has joined #lld 13:58:41 +[LC] 13:58:44 zakim, LC is me 13:58:44 +kefo; got it 13:59:03 zakim, mute me please 13:59:03 kefo should now be muted 13:59:07 zakim, who is making noise? 13:59:13 michaelp has joined #lld 13:59:17 +michaelp 13:59:19 TomB, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: emma_ (38%), antoine (44%) 13:59:25 zakim, michaelp is me 13:59:25 +jeff_; got it 13:59:31 zakim, mute me 13:59:31 jeff_ should now be muted 13:59:42 +pmurray 13:59:52 zakim, mute me 13:59:52 pmurray should now be muted 13:59:55 +jeff_.a 14:00:13 marcia has joined #lld 14:00:26 +[IPcaller] 14:00:33 Zakim, [IPcaller] is me 14:00:33 +digikim; got it 14:00:38 zakim, please list attendees 14:00:38 As of this point the attendees have been +33.1.44.78.aaaa, emma_, antoine, rsinger, TomB, dvilasuero, kefo, jeff_, pmurray, michaelp, digikim 14:01:00 @digikim, re the first comment at http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-lld-minutes.html 14:01:06 jar has joined #lld 14:01:08 + +1.330.672.aabb 14:01:08 what would you want? 14:01:22 antoine: a single long PDF would be good :) 14:01:26 zakim, aabb is marcia 14:01:26 +marcia; got it 14:01:52 digikim: we just have the HTML, and the text in the mail 14:02:01 antoine: well, html is ok too 14:02:07 if it is a one page 14:02:35 See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Mar/0033.html 14:03:23 antoine: any specific part in the notes? 14:03:32 (esp. the long text after Monica's announcement) 14:03:43 no, all notes are relevant :-) 14:03:45 +Jonathan_Rees 14:03:50 antoine: ;) 14:04:04 yep 14:04:24 TOPIC: Admin 14:04:35 PROPOSED: To accept 12http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html 14:05:28 Asia-Pacific Telecon: 14:05:45 TomB will get in touch with Japanese colleagues 14:05:47 +??P27 14:05:52 zakim, ??P27 is me 14:05:52 +ww; got it 14:05:58 zakim, mute me 14:05:58 ww should now be muted 14:06:11 TOPIC: FINAL REPORT DRAFT 14:06:56 Use case and requirements report, dvilasuero 14:07:13 zakim, unmute me 14:07:13 dvilasuero should no longer be muted 14:07:15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Apr/0011.html 14:07:33 dvilasuero: not much time to work on this 14:07:35 Regrets+ Felix, Alexander 14:07:42 ... followed recommendation from TomB 14:07:59 ... any comments? Hints? 14:08:13 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCaseReport 14:08:32 -> an HTML page 14:08:53 zakim, mute me 14:08:53 dvilasuero should now be muted 14:09:13 zakim, unmute me 14:09:13 antoine: there are some templates available on the W3C site, we can reuse them 14:09:13 dvilasuero should no longer be muted 14:09:36 q+ with comments http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Apr/0011.html 14:09:37 TomB: I suggest we do it in the wiki and then transfer it over to HTML, unless your preference is editing HTML 14:09:44 emma_: any comments? 14:09:45 ack ant 14:10:11 +1 discuss now 14:10:14 antoine: Sent email to the list with some comments, we can discuss now? Later? 14:10:39 ... First, it's definitely the right direction 14:11:00 +1 for the graph :-) 14:11:00 ... I like the graph, it's useful to have visual information of the process 14:11:37 ... 2) We are really able to see the differences between the use case, so hopefully we can get more homogeneous description between them 14:12:03 ... some are not compatible from an editorial perspective with the others 14:12:22 ... get the curators to come back, read the descriptions and revise them 14:12:27 emma_: the extracted use cases? 14:12:40 antoine: yes, the extracted use cases 14:12:45 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCaseReport#Extracted_Use_Cases 14:14:17 ... other comment, agrovoc use case, comments on the wording, but this is exactly what I was looking for 14:14:30 dvilasuero: this is an example from TomB 14:14:41 antoine: size and level of detail is perfect 14:15:05 dvilasuero: everyone can go back and participate in the editing of this page 14:15:15 antoine: small editorial comment, add links to the wiki pages 14:15:24 dvilasuero: both for the use cases and the clusters? 14:15:27 antoine: yes 14:15:49 antoine: general structure, would it be more interesting to have the extracted use cases first? 14:15:53 +1 14:15:53 q+ to ask about overlapping extracted cases 14:16:01 dvilasuero: sounds correct 14:16:23 +1 on switching order of "extracted" use cases and individual use cases 14:16:33 ack me 14:16:34 emma_, you wanted to ask about overlapping extracted cases 14:16:37 emma_: there might be cases where there are overlaps 14:17:20 antoine: do you have a specific example of overlaps? 14:17:33 emma_: no specifics, but I remember some of the clusters have similarities 14:18:02 antoine: reluctant to remove structure; useful reading guide 14:18:22 emma_: if you think it's useful to keep the clusters... 14:18:42 antoine: not so sure, just a gut feeling 14:18:52 q+ to suggest that descriptions of the individual use cases include at least one pointing to the project or case. Wondering whether that link should be to the frozen wiki page - that would certainly be easier 14:18:57 dvilasuero: maybe we can keep for now, and when completed we can revisit organization 14:19:22 ack to 14:19:22 TomB, you wanted to suggest that descriptions of the individual use cases include at least one pointing to the project or case. Wondering whether that link should be to the 14:19:25 ... frozen wiki page - that would certainly be easier 14:20:06 TomB: each of these descriptions point another document, should that be the frozen wiki page? or directly to the project, which would require a little more work? 14:20:11 emma_: what is your recommendation? 14:20:16 +1 14:20:25 TomB: I would suggest they point to the frozen wiki pages 14:20:26 +1 to tomb 14:20:37 also ensures that some description remains 14:20:42 emma_: I agree, more persistence. 14:20:56 uh great, I found the _transcluded_ version of the report. this is much easier to check than tens of different wiki pages... just wondering if this transcluded version is up to date... (?) 14:21:01 TomB: These pages capture the project at a particular point in time 14:21:41 ksclarke has joined #lld 14:21:46 ksclarke has left #lld 14:21:50 antoine: Terminology: some are just example cases, not actually use cases - not real user scenarios 14:22:08 ... perhaps we should adapt the naming convention, "Contributed cases"? 14:22:29 zakim, mute me 14:22:29 dvilasuero should now be muted 14:22:48 Agree that this is an issue... some of them are not 'use cases' 14:22:48 emma_: we had a lot of discussion on this and the definition of what was actually expected 14:23:01 ... or do we want to call this a use case report? 14:23:09 antoine: we can, although they may not actually be use cases 14:23:22 ... a cluster is a list of use cases 14:23:39 ... ok as a textual explanation of the graph 14:24:20 emma_: should we just forget the process and produce the results? 14:24:41 s/the process/explanation of the process/ 14:25:22 zakim, unmute me 14:25:22 dvilasuero should no longer be muted 14:25:24 antoine: we should remind that a call had been sent, this is community contribution, etc. 14:25:50 emma_: dvilasuero, may want to ask on the list 14:25:54 @digikim: not sure I understand. What is your link? 14:25:54 dvilasuero, I have parked references to the use case wiki pages in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/UseCaseReport#References for now... 14:26:03 dvilasuero: we should describe what this graph is 14:26:11 ... and have a discussion on the mailing list 14:26:29 ...for cutting and pasting... 14:26:32 There could also be some 'see also' references between extracted case clusters-- some have more than others and may address an issue can apply to another cluster. 14:26:33 antoine: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/DraftReportWithTransclusion 14:26:33 zakim, mute me 14:26:33 dvilasuero should now be muted 14:26:42 q+ 14:27:19 s/has/has a comment/ 14:27:23 emma_: at the end of the extracted use cases, there are two clusters that don't have any extracted use cases 14:27:59 marcia: look at the new use case page, very good. could there be some kind of references to each other? 14:28:16 ... the digital object extracted part, but there may be other issues already addressed by another part 14:28:22 ... archives, bibliographic data, etc. 14:28:27 ... this may save time 14:29:09 ... readers could be attracted by the title "Digital Objects" and it's sparse - if there were references to other sections, they could be drawn to the other cases to see the overlaps 14:29:19 emma_: THIS IS WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT! /emphasis added 14:29:30 emma_: :) 14:29:39 zakim, +q 14:29:39 I see marcia, dvilasuero on the speaker queue 14:29:47 ack dvi 14:29:57 ack marcia 14:30:05 zakim, mute me 14:30:05 marcia should now be muted 14:30:06 dvilasuero: i want to point out, re: overlapping, I identified some 14:30:21 ... social uses shared with bibliographic data cluster 14:30:34 ... didn't know which cluster to put it in, so for now it is duplicated 14:30:41 This is for individual cases, isn't it? 14:30:47 emma_: so sometimes it's duplicated, sometimes it's referenced 14:30:52 danbri has joined #lld 14:30:58 s/individual cases/individual contributed cases 14:31:03 dvilasuero: ??? 14:31:42 emma_: are we talking about the clusters? or the individual cases? The clusters, right? 14:31:48 dvilasuero: no, the individual cases 14:31:57 emma_: maybe we can just make a link in that case 14:32:14 ... any other comments? 14:32:27 +1 emma's suggestion 14:32:30 ok 14:33:08 zakim, mute me 14:33:08 dvilasuero should now be muted 14:33:11 emma_: all this about vocabularies, etc. is not going into the use case report, it's going into the final report, is that right? 14:33:32 ... that extracted in the clusters, issues, vocabs. 14:33:51 q+ 14:33:54 ... is that the intention? 14:34:19 antoine: all the stuff extracted from the use cases should make its way into the final report one way or another 14:34:35 ... recommendations, issues, vocabularies, separate deliverable 14:34:42 emma_: just keep the extracted cases? 14:35:00 antoine: should be enough to keep the links to the use case "frozen wiki pages" 14:35:03 ack ant 14:35:21 emma_: any more questions on the use case report? 14:35:30 zakim, unmute me 14:35:30 dvilasuero should no longer be muted 14:36:00 dvilasuero: i should have more time in the coming days, so I will report on the progress 14:36:11 emma_: great starting point, so thank you very much 14:36:15 zakim, unmute me 14:36:15 dvilasuero was not muted, dvilasuero 14:36:36 emma_: we have more time, so let's go through the other sections 14:37:07 which action is this? 14:37:19 I am sorry but I have to run to a meeting, Thanks everyone for the feedback and help :-) 14:37:24 i see it 14:37:33 ACTION: For Gordon and Karen to consider relation between problems and limitation section and the library resource wiki page. 14:37:38 --continues 14:37:45 -dvilasuero 14:38:06 emma_: Executive summary, we'll write later 14:38:19 ... Benefits of LD in libraries, we discussed last week 14:38:56 ACTION: Cluster owners to check the bullet-point list reflects their understanding and covers relevant points [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html#action04] 14:38:59 --continues 14:39:13 ACTION: edsu, emma, rsinger to create narrative text and add to bullet-points [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/31-lld-minutes.html#action05] 14:39:16 --continues 14:39:32 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Mar/0006.html 14:39:34 this is #4? 14:39:42 zakim, unmute me 14:39:42 ww should no longer be muted 14:39:56 Available data (vocabularies, datasets) (Antoine, Jeff, Marcia, William) 14:39:56 cf. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Mar/0006.html 14:40:17 ww: going to spend some time this weekend with graphviz to make some pictures 14:40:36 ... not sure of a Library data subcloud of the LOD cloud 14:40:50 ... not sure that will happen before the end of this document 14:41:11 antoine: will continue discussion over email 14:41:22 emma_: this should be up for discussion next week? 14:41:24 ww: yes 14:41:37 Relevant technologies (as described in #6 in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2011Feb/0034.html) 14:41:40 +1 pictures :-) 14:41:49 ACTION: Alex, Jeff, Martin, MichaelP elaborate on general purpose IT architecture for dealing with linked data with caching feature (short sketch for final report) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/10/24-lld-minutes.html#action04] 14:42:04 zakim, unmute me 14:42:05 jeff_ should no longer be muted 14:42:23 zakim, mute me 14:42:23 ww should now be muted 14:42:38 jeff_: Do we want a couple paragraphs of relevant technology? Right now we have list of things 14:42:48 emma_: these will go out of date quite quickly 14:44:57 TomB: it will go out of quickly; if somebody is willing to write something... Concerned about a relevant technology section being spotty 14:45:00 perhaps just a typology of tools, with one or two pointers? 14:45:14 @antoine: yes, something pretty high-level... 14:45:53 +1 14:45:57 ...with disclaimers that "this is not exhaustive" and a few pointers to sources of maintained lists 14:46:07 and 14:46:09 er 14:46:14 "and time sensitive" 14:46:32 q+ high-level, with disclaimers, and pointeres to maintained lists 14:46:34 zakim, mute me 14:46:35 jeff_ should now be muted 14:46:37 emma_: we will add this to the agenda 14:46:50 ack tom 14:47:22 TomB: to summarize, something high level that has disclaimers being non-exhaustive, time-sensitive, with points to sites that keep on top of the situation would be great 14:47:29 ... small piece 14:47:40 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/Category:Tool 14:47:50 emma: Problems and limitations section 14:47:53 -> this is the page I was refering to 14:47:55 ... any comments? 14:48:00 zakim, unmute me 14:48:00 pmurray should no longer be muted 14:48:10 TomB: We had some Skype calls, another early next week 14:48:29 ... made great progress, not all reflected in doc on wiki, yet. We have assignments among ourselves 14:48:52 ... problems AND recommendations, also part of that document 14:49:16 pmurray: our Skype call is on Monday, 11 AM EDT, let us know if you want to join 14:49:23 q+ about http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Vocabularies#Vocabulary_discussion_in_Pittsburgh 14:49:42 zakim, mute me 14:49:42 pmurray should now be muted 14:50:04 emma_: Requirents and recommendations section 14:50:12 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-lld/2011Mar/0171.html 14:50:40 ACTION: Karen to request feedback from community on recommendations [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2011/03/24-lld-minutes.html#action04] 14:50:50 --done 14:51:08 q+ 14:51:12 emma_: call scheduled on the subject of requirements, on April 25th 14:51:27 q- about 14:51:37 q- http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Vocabularies#Vocabulary_discussion_in_Pittsburgh 14:51:41 ack ant 14:51:55 zakim, unmute me 14:51:55 pmurray should no longer be muted 14:52:00 antoine: question for pmurray and TomB, looking at vocabulary page, at the deliverable - there appear to be recommendations at the beginning, should this go into the recommendation section? 14:52:01 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/wiki/Vocabularies#Vocabulary_discussion_in_Pittsburgh 14:52:16 TomB: I will circulate that to the group and see if we can work it in 14:52:28 emma_: any other business? 14:52:38 yes 14:53:11 ??? 14:53:13 did you hear? 14:53:27 I said that "sorry, didn't hear" 14:53:33 ha! 14:53:34 :) 14:53:37 :/me :-d 14:53:54 :) 14:53:56 do you hear me? 14:54:29 digikim: easier to read the report if it's transcluded to one big page 14:54:33 is this an action? 14:54:50 ok 14:55:00 (sorry, the sound quality is slightly difficult to understand) 14:55:06 yes 14:55:11 I can do it :) 14:55:15 emma_: digikim would you be willing to do this? 14:55:24 I said it too, but sound quality seem to be both ways bad :) 14:55:28 q+ 14:55:33 ack ant 14:55:40 "digikim to transclude the final draft of the report"? 14:55:48 is that right? 14:56:06 (I realize that's not the action, I just want to know what the action actually is) 14:56:26 :) 14:56:56 antoine: sounds good 14:57:00 deadline? 14:57:10 ACTION: Update the transcluded version of the report [digikim] 14:57:32 "ok" :) 14:57:51 emma_: no deadline for this action 14:58:01 ... any other business? 14:58:19 thanks 14:58:21 [adjourned] 14:58:23 -jeff_ 14:58:25 thanks 14:58:30 my pleasure! 14:58:31 -marcia 14:58:32 jeff_ has left #lld 14:58:34 -pmurray 14:58:36 zakim, please list attendees 14:58:36 As of this point the attendees have been +33.1.44.78.aaaa, emma_, antoine, rsinger, TomB, dvilasuero, kefo, jeff_, pmurray, michaelp, digikim, +1.330.672.aabb, marcia, 14:58:36 ty everyone 14:58:37 rrsagent, please draft minutes 14:58:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-lld-minutes.html emma_ 14:58:38 ... Jonathan_Rees, ww 14:58:39 -digikim 14:58:43 -michaelp 14:58:46 pmurray has left #lld 14:58:47 zakim, please list attendees 14:58:47 As of this point the attendees have been +33.1.44.78.aaaa, emma_, antoine, rsinger, TomB, dvilasuero, kefo, jeff_, pmurray, michaelp, digikim, +1.330.672.aabb, marcia, 14:58:50 ... Jonathan_Rees, ww 14:58:50 -kefo 14:58:52 -ww 14:58:58 michaelp has left #lld 14:59:05 -Jonathan_Rees 15:00:40 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:00:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-lld-minutes.html antoine 15:01:02 ye 15:02:08 zakim, please list attendees 15:02:08 As of this point the attendees have been +33.1.44.78.aaaa, emma_, antoine, rsinger, TomB, dvilasuero, kefo, jeff_, pmurray, michaelp, digikim, +1.330.672.aabb, marcia, 15:02:11 ... Jonathan_Rees, ww 15:02:22 antoine: what would be the optimal day to do a first update of the transcluded? ("now", "next wednesday", ...?) 15:02:40 rrsagent, please draft minutes 15:02:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-lld-minutes.html emma_ 15:02:40 next wednesday is good 15:02:51 antoine: ok, marked it to my calendar 15:03:11 ok, that looks good 15:03:13 ross, it's ok I think, you can dowlaod the minutes, edit them and sen the result to Antoine 15:03:25 thanks again for scribing today 15:03:42 great, i'll sent them out later today 15:03:46 thanks! 15:03:51 tks to you ! 15:04:12 -rsinger 15:04:18 ok, digikim! 15:04:28 -emma_ 15:04:43 -antoine 15:04:53 -TomB 15:04:55 INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended 15:04:56 Attendees were +33.1.44.78.aaaa, emma_, antoine, rsinger, TomB, dvilasuero, kefo, jeff_, pmurray, michaelp, digikim, +1.330.672.aabb, marcia, Jonathan_Rees, ww 15:05:07 zakim, bye 15:05:17 rrsagent, bye 15:05:17 I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-lld-actions.rdf : 15:05:17 ACTION: For Gordon and Karen to consider relation between problems and limitation section and the library resource wiki page. [1] 15:05:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/07-lld-irc#T14-37-33 15:05:17