IRC log of fx on 2011-04-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:59:50 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #fx

19:59:50 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-irc

19:59:52 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

19:59:52 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #fx

19:59:54 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 3983

19:59:54 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute

19:59:55 [trackbot]

Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference

19:59:55 [trackbot]

Date: 04 April 2011

20:00:52 [Zakim]

GA_FXTF()4:00PM has now started

20:00:59 [Zakim]

+smfr

20:01:10 [Zakim]

+ +1.206.675.aaaa

20:02:03 [Zakim]

+??P5

20:02:05 [Zakim]

+Doug_Schepers

20:02:12 [ed]

Zakim, ??P5 is me

20:02:12 [Zakim]

+ed; got it

20:02:28 [Zakim]

+ +1.650.253.aabb

20:02:33 [TabAtkins]

zakim, aabb is me

20:02:33 [Zakim]

+TabAtkins; got it

20:02:55 [ed]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0170.html

20:03:50 [ChrisL]

ChrisL has joined #fx

20:04:33 [Zakim]

+ChrisL

20:04:33 [ed]

Zakim, who's here?

20:04:35 [Zakim]

On the phone I see smfr, +1.206.675.aaaa, ed, Doug_Schepers, TabAtkins, ChrisL (muted)

20:04:36 [Zakim]

On IRC I see ChrisL, Zakim, RRSAgent, smfr, cabanier, anthony, shepazu, hober, plinss, F1LT3R, anthony_work, ed, TabAtkins, trackbot, heycam, CSSWG_LogBot

20:05:58 [ed]

Zakim, pick a scribe?

20:05:58 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, ed.

20:06:03 [ed]

Zakim, pick a victim

20:06:03 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Doug_Schepers

20:06:23 [shepazu]

scribeNick: shepazu

20:06:58 [shepazu]

Topic: CSS Animation synchronization

20:06:59 [ed]

chair: erik

20:07:07 [Zakim]

+??P12

20:07:17 [anthony]

Zakim, ??P12 is me

20:07:17 [Zakim]

+anthony; got it

20:07:19 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0168.html

20:07:48 [shepazu]

ed: long thread, wondered what the status of the animation work is?

20:08:06 [shepazu]

smfr: Dean promised to publish a draft this week

20:08:18 [shepazu]

... has an API for WebKit

20:08:34 [shepazu]

ed: does it do sync?

20:08:40 [shepazu]

smfr: I don't think so

20:09:36 [shepazu]

... it's hard to do smooth frame synchronization starting one animation at the end of another

20:10:19 [shepazu]

... hard to get seamless joins based on 'animationEnd' event

20:10:32 [shepazu]

ChrisL: so, you want a negative offset?

20:10:50 [shepazu]

smfr: I think it's better to use JS APIs, per Dean's spec

20:11:53 [shepazu]

cabanier: on mobile devices, JS overhead becomes tens of seconds

20:12:23 [shepazu]

TabAtkins: that's based on the traditional approach, not Dean's approach

20:13:34 [shepazu]

smfr: you would set it up using keyframes or such, not execute it directly (?)

20:14:57 [shepazu]

cabanier: on iPad, we have to skip frames on animations, how would you set this up?

20:14:59 [shepazu]

TabAtkins: [missed]

20:15:01 [shepazu]

cabanier: ok, I'll have to see it working

20:15:34 [shepazu]

TabAtkins: it's simple at the moment, but has clear directions for expansion

20:16:07 [shepazu]

ed: does this solve Paul's concerns?

20:17:16 [shepazu]

cabanier: paul was asking about pausing and rewinding animations, or replacing them midway through

20:17:55 [shepazu]

... we were more concerned about synchronization in a simple manner

20:18:17 [shepazu]

... without setting it up in advance or keying off an animation event handler

20:19:40 [shepazu]

ed: ok, we will wait for Dean's spec before going further

20:20:02 [shepazu]

Topic: SVG/CSS 2d transforms - 'transform-origin'

20:21:05 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0158.html

20:21:49 [shepazu]

anthony: been discussion on the list about how the transform attribute is going to be used in relation to CSS

20:22:33 [shepazu]

... I thought we were going for an override, but the list discussion doesn't seem to agree

20:23:17 [shepazu]

... ROC put up some options... I don't have personal preferences, I am just curious what others think we should do?

20:24:44 [ed]

http://dev.w3.org/Graphics-FX/modules/2D-transforms/spec/2DTransforms.html

20:24:57 [shepazu]

anthony: the most pertinent point for this discussion is point 1: "Elements with SVG transform attributes must default to top-left as their

20:25:00 [shepazu]

transform origin, but CSS transforms default to the center."

20:25:06 [shepazu]

anthony: not sure the spec reflects the group decision at this point

20:25:32 [shepazu]

ed: I think it does reflect this first point

20:26:00 [shepazu]

... for backwards compatibility

20:26:59 [smfr]

http://dev.w3.org/Graphics-FX/modules/2D-transforms/spec/2DTransforms.html#transform-origin

20:28:08 [shepazu]

ed: 'transform-origin' property has an initial value of center (50%,50%) for CSS, and origin (0,0) for SVG

20:28:38 [ed]

initial value is auto

20:28:46 [ed]

but it maps to those

20:29:03 [Zakim]

+[Apple]

20:29:12 [hober]

Zakim, Apple has hober

20:29:12 [Zakim]

+hober; got it

20:30:18 [shepazu]

anthony: seems like people are leaning toward roc's option 1a: "1a) Introduce a UA style rule that sets transform-origin to "top left" for all SVG elements."

20:31:11 [shepazu]

anthony: would this apply before or after the transform is applied?

20:31:34 [shepazu]

smfr: SVG or CSS transform?

20:32:01 [shepazu]

anthony: I thought we were doing a 1-1 mapping?

20:33:31 [shepazu]

smfr: not sure how they interact

20:34:00 [shepazu]

shepazu: do CSS transforms override or supplement SVG transforms?

20:34:20 [shepazu]

ChrisL: depends on if @transform is promoted to a CSS property

20:35:03 [ChrisL]

if its promoted toa property then a style rule overrides. if not,then they could be defined to combine. Depends what we want

20:37:36 [shepazu]

ed: I did an experimental implementation that did a post-multiply, and it seemed easy enough to use, but felt a bit strange not to have @transform as a property

20:37:53 [Zakim]

-smfr

20:37:59 [Zakim]

-TabAtkins

20:38:10 [ChrisL]

Not promoting transform to a property minimises the backwards compatibility issues and means the dom still works as it did before

20:38:21 [shepazu]

ed: didn't experiment much, but that was the easiest way

20:41:02 [shepazu]

anthony: what about animation?

20:42:24 [shepazu]

shepazu: still works for animating with CSS animations

20:42:58 [shepazu]

ChrisL: I think the simpler path is not promoting @transform to a property, and just define how they combine

20:43:12 [shepazu]

shepazu: I tend to agree, though ed's point is taken

20:43:53 [shepazu]

ed: yeah, that solves the DOM issues as well

20:44:57 [shepazu]

shepazu: my only concern would be for SVG UAs that don't support CSS, but I think those are dwindling

20:45:10 [ed]

s/to have @transform as a property/to have @transform as a presentation attribute/

20:47:23 [shepazu]

anthony: would CSS transforms still apply to SVG

20:47:55 [shepazu]

ChrisL: yes, they would be separate sources of transformation, and you would simply post-multiply them

20:48:08 [shepazu]

Resolution: pending further discussion with other stakeholders, we will not define @transform as a presentation attribute

20:48:48 [shepazu]

Action: anthony to reply to Roc's email with our suggested resolution

20:48:48 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-28 - Reply to Roc's email with our suggested resolution [on Anthony Grasso - due 2011-04-11].

20:51:10 [shepazu]

Topic: Filter Effects status update

20:51:25 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/mid/4A2DB3AE4504E944AF122BBFBA7FBA1F582D2DC1@TK5EX14MBXC114.redmond.corp.microsoft.com

20:53:01 [shepazu]

ChrisL: my impression is that CSS people want it to be very simple, and that adding borders, backgrounds, etc complicates it, so a better would be to add new 'in's to the SVG filter primitives

20:53:44 [shepazu]

ChrisL: simon had a counterproposal with separate names, but that raised the question of how they combined

20:54:14 [shepazu]

ed: I think I'm in favor of having different inputs, and we could define them for the SVG case

20:55:06 [ed]

s/having different inputs,/having additional filter input image keywords,/

20:55:06 [shepazu]

ChrisL: for instance, for things that don't use the CSS box model, you would just use transparent black for the border image (for example)

20:55:46 [shepazu]

ed: we already have 'backgroundImage', but could do it differently for HTML

20:56:16 [Zakim]

-ChrisL

20:56:48 [Zakim]

+ChrisL

20:56:56 [shepazu]

action: ed to add filter input image keywords for CSS and HTML

20:56:57 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-29 - Add filter input image keywords for CSS and HTML [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-04-11].

20:57:27 [shepazu]

ed: would like to have a list... background of element, border, content box...

20:57:42 [shepazu]

ChrisL: padding is always transparent...

20:57:58 [shepazu]

... so, that's a good list

20:58:45 [shepazu]

ChrisL: start with simple ones, like solid and dotted border, and give it a dropshadow

20:59:39 [shepazu]

... then experiment with 9-box, apply effects... string of pearls, celtic knot...

21:00:32 [shepazu]

... take the alpha channel of the border image to produce a dropshadow, I think that would be compelling

21:01:18 [shepazu]

ed: I'll also try to combine SVG Compositing to filters.... haven't looked at it yet...

21:02:02 [shepazu]

action: ed to add normative reference to SVG Compositing in Filters, and merge them where it applies

21:02:02 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-30 - Add normative reference to SVG Compositing in Filters, and merge them where it applies [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-04-11].

21:02:24 [Zakim]

-ChrisL

21:02:25 [Zakim]

-[Apple]

21:02:26 [Zakim]

-ed

21:02:26 [Zakim]

-Doug_Schepers

21:02:28 [Zakim]

-anthony

21:02:35 [cabanier]

cabanier has left #fx

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- +1.206.675.aaaa

21:02:39 [Zakim]

GA_FXTF()4:00PM has ended

21:02:40 [Zakim]

Attendees were smfr, +1.206.675.aaaa, Doug_Schepers, ed, +1.650.253.aabb, TabAtkins, ChrisL, anthony, hober

21:03:42 [shepazu]

trackbot: end telcon

21:03:42 [trackbot]

Zakim, list attendees

21:03:42 [Zakim]

sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

21:03:43 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

21:03:43 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-minutes.html trackbot

21:03:44 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, bye

21:03:44 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-actions.rdf :

21:03:44 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: anthony to reply to Roc's email with our suggested resolution [1]

21:03:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-irc#T20-48-48

21:03:44 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ed to add filter input image keywords for CSS and HTML [2]

21:03:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-irc#T20-56-56

21:03:44 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ed to add normative reference to SVG Compositing in Filters, and merge them where it applies [3]

21:03:44 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/04-fx-irc#T21-02-02