IRC log of tagmem on 2011-03-31

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:58:50 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #tagmem

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-tagmem-irc

16:58:52 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs public

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Zakim has joined #tagmem

16:58:54 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be TAG

16:58:54 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started

16:58:55 [trackbot]

Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference

16:58:56 [trackbot]

Date: 31 March 2011

16:59:24 [JeniT]

Zakim, P0 is me

16:59:24 [Zakim]

sorry, JeniT, I do not recognize a party named 'P0'

16:59:31 [JeniT]

Zakim, ??P0 is me

16:59:31 [Zakim]

+JeniT; got it

16:59:35 [Zakim]

+Jonathan_Rees

17:00:06 [Zakim]

+plinss

17:01:07 [Ashok]

Ashok has joined #tagmem

17:01:09 [Yves]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/03/31-agenda

17:01:10 [Zakim]

+DKA

17:01:10 [Zakim]

+Noah_Mendelsohn

17:01:27 [noah]

noah has joined #tagmem

17:01:40 [noah]

zakim, who is here?

17:01:41 [Zakim]

On the phone I see JeniT, ??P1, Jonathan_Rees, plinss, DKA, Noah_Mendelsohn

17:01:42 [Zakim]

On IRC I see noah, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, ht_home, JeniT, ht, timbl, plinss, jar, Yves, trackbot

17:01:42 [DKA]

DKA has joined #tagmem

17:01:48 [Zakim]

+Ashok_Malhotra

17:02:07 [Zakim]

+Yves

17:02:29 [Yves]

scribe: Yves

17:02:34 [DKA]

zakim, who is here?

17:02:34 [Zakim]

On the phone I see JeniT, ??P1, Jonathan_Rees, plinss, DKA, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves

17:02:36 [Zakim]

On IRC I see DKA, noah, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, ht_home, JeniT, ht, timbl, plinss, jar, Yves, trackbot

17:03:42 [Yves]

Topic: convene

17:03:53 [Yves]

Regrets: Larry, TimBL

17:04:02 [Yves]

there will be a call next week

17:04:05 [noah]

No regrets for next week

17:04:22 [Yves]

jar to scribe

17:04:28 [ht_home]

zakim, ? is me

17:04:28 [Zakim]

+ht_home; got it

17:04:57 [Yves]

Ashok: regrets for april 14 and 21

17:05:19 [Yves]

Topic: approval of minutes

17:05:25 [noah]

Minutes at http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/03/24-minutes

17:05:38 [Zakim]

-DKA

17:05:47 [Yves]

RESOLUTION: minutes of last meeting approved

17:06:08 [Yves]

Noah: note that it is good practise to send minutes also in text mode

17:08:00 [Zakim]

+DKA

17:08:18 [Yves]

(discussion on the agenda)

17:09:47 [Yves]

Topic: ISSUE-25 (deepLinking-25): Can publication of hyperlinks cause copyright infringment?

17:10:27 [noah]

Reviewing: https://docs.google.com/View?id=dgnh4s67_2cv7hf5c7

17:10:40 [noah]

Note that the authors have agreed to move this into W3C URI space real soon now.

17:10:42 [Yves]

document is about what publishing document on the web really means.

17:11:17 [Yves]

first section is about terminology

17:11:41 [Yves]

the second section is about users and reusers.

17:11:59 [Yves]

s/document/Jeni: document/

17:12:00 [ht_home]

q+ to ask what an "origin server" is

17:12:05 [jar]

q+ what is 'access' ?

17:12:17 [jar]

q?

17:12:21 [jar]

q- what

17:12:27 [jar]

q- is

17:12:28 [noah]

q?

17:12:38 [jar]

q- 'access'

17:12:43 [jar]

q- ?

17:12:53 [Yves]

difference between origin server, cache, replication, aliasing (through URI redirect)

17:12:53 [jar]

q+ jar to ask what 'access' is

17:13:04 [noah]

q+ to say the document is unclear on the degree to which this is intended as backdrop to legal discussion.

17:13:04 [Yves]

inclusion etc...

17:13:26 [noah]

ack next

17:13:33 [Zakim]

ht_home, you wanted to ask what an "origin server" is

17:13:49 [noah]

q?

17:14:20 [Yves]

ht: is the terminology meant to be self-contained? If not what are the dependencies

17:14:29 [Yves]

jeni: what do you mean by that?

17:14:43 [Yves]

ht: there are technical terms that are not defined here

17:15:04 [Yves]

jeni: we can have a terminology section added, like for origin-server

17:16:03 [Yves]

(Yves note that origin server should be taken from "HTTP/1.1, part 1: URIs, Connections, and Message Parsing"

17:16:03 [noah]

q?

17:16:34 [Yves]

DKA: we don't want to rehash what's in WebArch doc, just to give a framework for discussion

17:17:07 [noah]

ack next

17:17:09 [Zakim]

jar, you wanted to ask what 'access' is

17:18:28 [noah]

Hmm, copyright law may have originated with issues raised by the printing press, but there's already now a long history involving media like phonograph records, radio, videotape recorders, etc.

17:18:36 [Yves]

jar: same as ht, clarification of some words, what does 'access' means? copyright laws was defined for the printing press. One of the goal is to define the difference between the web and printed press. When you copy, you are not printing.

17:19:05 [noah]

My comment above was actually a response to JAR, please reorder if possible when minutes are formatted. Thank you.

17:19:11 [Yves]

Jeni: it was taken from the definition of 'fetching'

17:19:38 [Yves]

jar: it boils down to who is responsible for which action

17:20:11 [noah]

ack next

17:20:13 [Zakim]

noah, you wanted to say the document is unclear on the degree to which this is intended as backdrop to legal discussion.

17:20:23 [Yves]

Jeni: with pre-fetching and offline application, some documents might be fecthed without the user being responsible for doing it explicitely

17:20:24 [jar]

and on the web, each act of copying is joint responsibility of two parties, the sender and receiver

17:21:21 [noah]

"This document does not aim to answer these legal questions."

17:21:23 [Yves]

noah: is the document only on terminology or is it relative to copyright law?

17:22:00 [Yves]

also the document is missing an abstract to do some framing

17:22:42 [DKA]

I actually just took a crack at writing this abstract today FYI, Noah - somewhat along the lines you're suggesting...

17:23:05 [jar]

jeni, and dan, i think i forgot to say this when it was my term, but I think it's a great start

17:24:07 [Yves]

jar: the most useful document would be a mix of common sense and technical facts. If we want to address legal issues, we should ask an attorney for help

17:25:14 [Yves]

noah: the document can still says that legal issues was the motivation for creating the document even if it is not addressing legal issues

17:25:27 [noah]

"This document does not aim to answer these legal questions. "

17:25:41 [Ashok]

q?

17:26:03 [Ashok]

q+

17:26:16 [noah]

This implies in a backhanded way that our use of the term "distribution" is intended to be legal. If not, that's fine, but then let's not imply it is.

17:26:45 [Yves]

DKA: there is an abstract right now

17:27:03 [Yves]

Noah: we will need frozen copies for discussions

17:27:15 [Yves]

(for reference in meeting minutes)

17:27:50 [noah]

Suggestion for abstract:

17:27:54 [noah]

<DKAVersion>

17:27:55 [noah]

This document was written, in part, because of some legal issues that were raised to the TAG.

17:28:01 [noah]

</DKAVersion>

17:28:07 [noah]

<suggestedByNoah>

17:28:17 [noah]

This document was written, in part, because of some copyright-related legal issues that were raised to the TAG.

17:28:20 [noah]

</suggestedByNoah>

17:28:30 [noah]

q?

17:28:37 [noah]

ack next

17:29:17 [Yves]

ashok: following on what jar said, it would be helpful to have a lawyer looking at this if not co-authoring.

17:30:32 [Yves]

jar: lawyers won't give legal advice here, as they would be liable for that.

17:30:34 [DKA]

q+

17:31:45 [noah]

q?

17:32:24 [Yves]

Noah: who could help (informally) on the legal side to see if there is something missing?

17:33:04 [Yves]

Yves: Rigo, although he might not have time, but it's worth asking

17:33:21 [Yves]

s/Rigo/Rigo Wenning/

17:33:26 [Yves]

I will check with him.

17:33:40 [Yves]

Noah: it should be very high level only.

17:34:09 [Yves]

jar: I could also ask people

17:34:10 [noah]

ack next

17:35:10 [Yves]

DKA: we can give technical advice if not legal advice. Like showing publisher technical ways of forbidding deep-linking instead of putting just legal warnings

17:35:14 [noah]

q?

17:35:42 [noah]

ACTION-541?

17:35:42 [trackbot]

ACTION-541 -- Jeni Tennison to helped by DKA to produce a first draft of terminology about (deep-)linking etc. -- due 2011-03-29 -- OPEN

17:35:42 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/541

17:36:25 [noah]

ACTION-541 Due 2011-04-12

17:36:26 [trackbot]

ACTION-541 Helped by DKA to produce a first draft of terminology about (deep-)linking etc. due date now 2011-04-12

17:36:37 [noah]

ACTION-505?

17:36:37 [trackbot]

ACTION-505 -- Daniel Appelquist to start a document wrt issue-25 -- due 2011-03-01 -- OPEN

17:36:37 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/505

17:36:48 [noah]

ISSUE-25?

17:36:48 [trackbot]

ISSUE-25 -- What to say in defense of principle that deep linking is not an illegal act? -- open

17:36:48 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/25

17:39:12 [Yves]

DKA: working on this document might also help action-505

17:39:29 [noah]

We're closing 505 because Dan feels 541 is a better path for addressing ISSUE-25

17:39:34 [noah]

close ACTION-505

17:39:34 [trackbot]

ACTION-505 Start a document wrt issue-25 closed

17:39:57 [Yves]

Topic: Offline applications

17:40:52 [Yves]

Noah: we have work on offline storage (from Ashok) but there are issues about packaging, URIs etc...

17:41:53 [Yves]

the issue is focusing on packaging. There is work going on about widget packaging in WebApps WG

17:42:11 [jar]

http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/

17:42:15 [Yves]

discussions in the HTML-WG on app-cache

17:42:55 [Yves]

on reuse of documents that were downloaded (while widget define mandatory to retrieve content)

17:43:21 [jar]

http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#appcache ?

17:44:08 [Yves]

dka: there were multiple widget packaging format (adobe, opera, nokia...)

17:45:15 [Yves]

also new formats for new devices (google chrome apps for example).

17:46:02 [Yves]

the standardization phase did not start yet for widget, in fact we see an explosion of formats

17:47:16 [Yves]

Noah: are you proposing that the TAG should lead unification ?

17:47:39 [Yves]

DKA: I just proposed this so that the TAG is aware. I don't know who should be driving unification.

17:48:52 [noah]

q?

17:49:31 [Yves]

ashok: how is packaging webapps different from other packaging?

17:49:46 [Yves]

DKA: widgets are using ZIP, the main difference is the content

17:51:12 [Yves]

Noah: the widget community and the HTML5 community are building different things. widget seems to define a portable platform that happens to use web technologies, while the HTML5 community treat webapps like a normal web document. The two approaches are

17:51:13 [Yves]

different

17:54:28 [ht_home]

q+ to be confused by Noah contrasting zip and http

17:54:50 [Yves]

DKA: the widget package is not streamable, that was an issue that was raised

17:55:42 [Yves]

ht: it is strange to make a distinction between zip users and http users

17:56:28 [DKA]

http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets-uri/

17:57:02 [Yves]

noah: in the widget spec, it tells what a widget is, as a format, and never talks about network access or HTTP. In that case, you are still using HTML CSS and other web technologies. In the HTML5 case, it is different as it comes under the assumption that

17:57:11 [Yves]

it is retrieved through HTTP

17:57:53 [Yves]

with all documents in the package seen as part of things you might have retrieved from the web

17:58:01 [noah]

q?

17:58:06 [noah]

ack next

17:58:08 [Zakim]

ht_home, you wanted to be confused by Noah contrasting zip and http

17:58:11 [noah]

ack next

17:59:42 [Yves]

Yves: such package can also be seen as a local cache only, interacting with the way URI dereferencing is done.

18:00:04 [Yves]

it depends if there are notions of URIs of the documents that are in the package or not

18:01:05 [Ashok]

And, Yves, you said that the targets of the URIs may be cached in the package

18:01:21 [Yves]

yes

18:02:02 [Yves]

DKA: work on that subject might be an input for furher work done elsewhere

18:02:10 [Yves]

s/furher/further/

18:02:32 [Yves]

like a workshop

18:03:16 [noah]

close ACTION-529

18:03:16 [trackbot]

ACTION-529 Schedule telcon discussion of a potential TAG product relating to offline applications and packaged Web closed

18:04:25 [noah]

ACTION Appelquist to propose TAG input, if any, to possible workshop on packaged Web apps Due 2011-05-31

18:04:25 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-544 - Propose TAG input, if any, to possible workshop on packaged Web apps Due 2011-05-31 [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2011-04-07].

18:04:45 [Yves]

Topic: EXI

18:07:28 [Yves]

ht: there are two implementations linked from the WG, 3 implementations from the interop report that are not indentified.

18:07:36 [Yves]

nothing newer than that

18:08:38 [noah]

From: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Apr/0060.html

18:08:42 [DKA]

Yep.

18:08:44 [noah]

Minutes of April 2010

18:08:49 [noah]

TBL: would like the TAG to get a report on EXI usage at a future

18:08:49 [noah]

meeting

18:10:18 [noah]

HT: I think my report at the Cambridge F2F in January covers it, propose to close ACTION-421

18:10:30 [noah]

close ACTION-421

18:10:30 [trackbot]

ACTION-421 Frame the discussion of EXI deployment at a future meeting closed

18:10:58 [Yves]

Topic: Overdue Action Items

18:11:07 [noah]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner

18:11:19 [Zakim]

-ht_home

18:11:26 [DKA]

action-514?

18:11:26 [trackbot]

ACTION-514 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 -- due 2011-03-01 -- OPEN

18:11:26 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/514

18:11:26 [noah]

ACTION-514?

18:11:26 [trackbot]

ACTION-514 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 -- due 2011-03-01 -- OPEN

18:11:26 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/514

18:12:07 [noah]

ACTION-514 Due 2011-04-12

18:12:07 [trackbot]

ACTION-514 Draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 due date now 2011-04-12

18:12:08 [Yves]

DKA: no progress, new deadline april 12

18:12:17 [noah]

ACTION-460?

18:12:17 [trackbot]

ACTION-460 -- Daniel Appelquist to coordinate with IAB regarding next steps on privacy policy -- due 2011-03-08 -- OPEN

18:12:17 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/460

18:13:22 [noah]

ACTION-460 Due 2011-05-24

18:13:22 [trackbot]

ACTION-460 Coordinate with IAB regarding next steps on privacy policy due date now 2011-05-24

18:13:32 [noah]

ACTION-480?

18:13:32 [trackbot]

ACTION-480 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents Due: 2010-11-01 -- due 2011-03-01 -- OPEN

18:13:32 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/480

18:14:06 [noah]

ACTION-480 Due 2011-04-12

18:14:06 [trackbot]

ACTION-480 Draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents due date now 2011-04-12

18:14:22 [noah]

ACTION-507?

18:14:22 [trackbot]

ACTION-507 -- Daniel Appelquist to with Noah to suggest next steps for TAG on privacy -- due 2011-03-01 -- OPEN

18:14:22 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/507

18:15:51 [DKA]

http://www.w3.org/2011/track-privacy/

18:16:23 [noah]

ACTION-507 Due 2011-05-03

18:16:23 [trackbot]

ACTION-507 With Noah to suggest next steps for TAG on privacy due date now 2011-05-03

18:17:37 [noah]

ACTION-537?

18:17:38 [trackbot]

ACTION-537 -- Daniel Appelquist to reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction -- due 2011-03-10 -- OPEN

18:17:38 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/537

18:18:04 [noah]

DKA: Sent something, haven't heard back.

18:18:13 [noah]

ACTION-537 Due 2011-04-05

18:18:13 [trackbot]

ACTION-537 Reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction due date now 2011-04-05

18:18:24 [noah]

ACTION-341?

18:18:24 [trackbot]

ACTION-341 -- Yves Lafon to follow up with Thomas about security review activities for HTML5 -- due 2011-03-29 -- OPEN

18:18:24 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341

18:18:45 [noah]

YL: Organizaitonal work still ongoing, will talk to TLR next week.

18:19:32 [noah]

ACTION-341 Due 2011-04-05

18:19:32 [trackbot]

ACTION-341 Follow up with Thomas about security review activities for HTML5 due date now 2011-04-05

18:19:44 [noah]

ACTION-525?

18:19:44 [trackbot]

ACTION-525 -- Noah Mendelsohn to check with John before closing http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/products/2 WebApps access control -- due 2011-03-29 -- OPEN

18:19:44 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/525

18:20:05 [noah]

ACTION-525 Due 2011-04-05

18:20:05 [trackbot]

ACTION-525 Check with John before closing http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/products/2 WebApps access control due date now 2011-04-05

18:20:19 [noah]

ACTION-379?

18:20:19 [trackbot]

ACTION-379 -- Noah Mendelsohn to check whether HTML language reference has been published -- due 2011-03-29 -- OPEN

18:20:19 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/379

18:20:34 [noah]

ACTION-379 Due 2011-04-05

18:20:34 [trackbot]

ACTION-379 Check whether HTML language reference has been published due date now 2011-04-05

18:20:46 [noah]

ACTION-522?

18:20:46 [trackbot]

ACTION-522 -- Noah Mendelsohn to build Tracker product page for HTML/XML Unification -- due 2011-03-29 -- OPEN

18:20:46 [trackbot]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/522

18:20:51 [noah]

ACTION-522 Due 2011-04-05

18:20:51 [trackbot]

ACTION-522 Build Tracker product page for HTML/XML Unification due date now 2011-04-05

18:21:09 [noah]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview

18:22:19 [Yves]

509 was reopened to trigger discussion when it becomes pending again

18:22:52 [Zakim]

-Ashok_Malhotra

18:22:52 [Yves]

Noah: odds are that there might be a call in two weeks only.

18:22:54 [Zakim]

-DKA

18:22:55 [Zakim]

-Noah_Mendelsohn

18:22:56 [Zakim]

-Jonathan_Rees

18:22:57 [Zakim]

-JeniT

18:22:58 [Yves]

ADJOURNED

18:22:59 [Zakim]

-plinss

18:23:02 [Zakim]

-Yves

18:23:04 [Zakim]

TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended

18:23:06 [Zakim]

Attendees were JeniT, Jonathan_Rees, plinss, DKA, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, ht_home

18:23:13 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-tagmem-minutes.html Yves