16:58:50 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 16:58:50 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-tagmem-irc 16:58:52 RRSAgent, make logs public 16:58:52 Zakim has joined #tagmem 16:58:54 Zakim, this will be TAG 16:58:54 ok, trackbot, I see TAG_Weekly()1:00PM already started 16:58:55 Meeting: Technical Architecture Group Teleconference 16:58:56 Date: 31 March 2011 16:59:24 Zakim, P0 is me 16:59:24 sorry, JeniT, I do not recognize a party named 'P0' 16:59:31 Zakim, ??P0 is me 16:59:31 +JeniT; got it 16:59:35 +Jonathan_Rees 17:00:06 +plinss 17:01:07 Ashok has joined #tagmem 17:01:09 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/03/31-agenda 17:01:10 +DKA 17:01:10 +Noah_Mendelsohn 17:01:27 noah has joined #tagmem 17:01:40 zakim, who is here? 17:01:41 On the phone I see JeniT, ??P1, Jonathan_Rees, plinss, DKA, Noah_Mendelsohn 17:01:42 On IRC I see noah, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, ht_home, JeniT, ht, timbl, plinss, jar, Yves, trackbot 17:01:42 DKA has joined #tagmem 17:01:48 +Ashok_Malhotra 17:02:07 +Yves 17:02:29 scribe: Yves 17:02:34 zakim, who is here? 17:02:34 On the phone I see JeniT, ??P1, Jonathan_Rees, plinss, DKA, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves 17:02:36 On IRC I see DKA, noah, Ashok, Zakim, RRSAgent, ht_home, JeniT, ht, timbl, plinss, jar, Yves, trackbot 17:03:42 Topic: convene 17:03:53 Regrets: Larry, TimBL 17:04:02 there will be a call next week 17:04:05 No regrets for next week 17:04:22 jar to scribe 17:04:28 zakim, ? is me 17:04:28 +ht_home; got it 17:04:57 Ashok: regrets for april 14 and 21 17:05:19 Topic: approval of minutes 17:05:25 Minutes at http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2011/03/24-minutes 17:05:38 -DKA 17:05:47 RESOLUTION: minutes of last meeting approved 17:06:08 Noah: note that it is good practise to send minutes also in text mode 17:08:00 +DKA 17:08:18 (discussion on the agenda) 17:09:47 Topic: ISSUE-25 (deepLinking-25): Can publication of hyperlinks cause copyright infringment? 17:10:27 Reviewing: https://docs.google.com/View?id=dgnh4s67_2cv7hf5c7 17:10:40 Note that the authors have agreed to move this into W3C URI space real soon now. 17:10:42 document is about what publishing document on the web really means. 17:11:17 first section is about terminology 17:11:41 the second section is about users and reusers. 17:11:59 s/document/Jeni: document/ 17:12:00 q+ to ask what an "origin server" is 17:12:05 q+ what is 'access' ? 17:12:17 q? 17:12:21 q- what 17:12:27 q- is 17:12:28 q? 17:12:38 q- 'access' 17:12:43 q- ? 17:12:53 difference between origin server, cache, replication, aliasing (through URI redirect) 17:12:53 q+ jar to ask what 'access' is 17:13:04 q+ to say the document is unclear on the degree to which this is intended as backdrop to legal discussion. 17:13:04 inclusion etc... 17:13:26 ack next 17:13:33 ht_home, you wanted to ask what an "origin server" is 17:13:49 q? 17:14:20 ht: is the terminology meant to be self-contained? If not what are the dependencies 17:14:29 jeni: what do you mean by that? 17:14:43 ht: there are technical terms that are not defined here 17:15:04 jeni: we can have a terminology section added, like for origin-server 17:16:03 (Yves note that origin server should be taken from "HTTP/1.1, part 1: URIs, Connections, and Message Parsing" 17:16:03 q? 17:16:34 DKA: we don't want to rehash what's in WebArch doc, just to give a framework for discussion 17:17:07 ack next 17:17:09 jar, you wanted to ask what 'access' is 17:18:28 Hmm, copyright law may have originated with issues raised by the printing press, but there's already now a long history involving media like phonograph records, radio, videotape recorders, etc. 17:18:36 jar: same as ht, clarification of some words, what does 'access' means? copyright laws was defined for the printing press. One of the goal is to define the difference between the web and printed press. When you copy, you are not printing. 17:19:05 My comment above was actually a response to JAR, please reorder if possible when minutes are formatted. Thank you. 17:19:11 Jeni: it was taken from the definition of 'fetching' 17:19:38 jar: it boils down to who is responsible for which action 17:20:11 ack next 17:20:13 noah, you wanted to say the document is unclear on the degree to which this is intended as backdrop to legal discussion. 17:20:23 Jeni: with pre-fetching and offline application, some documents might be fecthed without the user being responsible for doing it explicitely 17:20:24 and on the web, each act of copying is joint responsibility of two parties, the sender and receiver 17:21:21 "This document does not aim to answer these legal questions." 17:21:23 noah: is the document only on terminology or is it relative to copyright law? 17:22:00 also the document is missing an abstract to do some framing 17:22:42 I actually just took a crack at writing this abstract today FYI, Noah - somewhat along the lines you're suggesting... 17:23:05 jeni, and dan, i think i forgot to say this when it was my term, but I think it's a great start 17:24:07 jar: the most useful document would be a mix of common sense and technical facts. If we want to address legal issues, we should ask an attorney for help 17:25:14 noah: the document can still says that legal issues was the motivation for creating the document even if it is not addressing legal issues 17:25:27 "This document does not aim to answer these legal questions. " 17:25:41 q? 17:26:03 q+ 17:26:16 This implies in a backhanded way that our use of the term "distribution" is intended to be legal. If not, that's fine, but then let's not imply it is. 17:26:45 DKA: there is an abstract right now 17:27:03 Noah: we will need frozen copies for discussions 17:27:15 (for reference in meeting minutes) 17:27:50 Suggestion for abstract: 17:27:54 17:27:55 This document was written, in part, because of some legal issues that were raised to the TAG. 17:28:01 17:28:07 17:28:17 This document was written, in part, because of some copyright-related legal issues that were raised to the TAG. 17:28:20 17:28:30 q? 17:28:37 ack next 17:29:17 ashok: following on what jar said, it would be helpful to have a lawyer looking at this if not co-authoring. 17:30:32 jar: lawyers won't give legal advice here, as they would be liable for that. 17:30:34 q+ 17:31:45 q? 17:32:24 Noah: who could help (informally) on the legal side to see if there is something missing? 17:33:04 Yves: Rigo, although he might not have time, but it's worth asking 17:33:21 s/Rigo/Rigo Wenning/ 17:33:26 I will check with him. 17:33:40 Noah: it should be very high level only. 17:34:09 jar: I could also ask people 17:34:10 ack next 17:35:10 DKA: we can give technical advice if not legal advice. Like showing publisher technical ways of forbidding deep-linking instead of putting just legal warnings 17:35:14 q? 17:35:42 ACTION-541? 17:35:42 ACTION-541 -- Jeni Tennison to helped by DKA to produce a first draft of terminology about (deep-)linking etc. -- due 2011-03-29 -- OPEN 17:35:42 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/541 17:36:25 ACTION-541 Due 2011-04-12 17:36:26 ACTION-541 Helped by DKA to produce a first draft of terminology about (deep-)linking etc. due date now 2011-04-12 17:36:37 ACTION-505? 17:36:37 ACTION-505 -- Daniel Appelquist to start a document wrt issue-25 -- due 2011-03-01 -- OPEN 17:36:37 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/505 17:36:48 ISSUE-25? 17:36:48 ISSUE-25 -- What to say in defense of principle that deep linking is not an illegal act? -- open 17:36:48 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/25 17:39:12 DKA: working on this document might also help action-505 17:39:29 We're closing 505 because Dan feels 541 is a better path for addressing ISSUE-25 17:39:34 close ACTION-505 17:39:34 ACTION-505 Start a document wrt issue-25 closed 17:39:57 Topic: Offline applications 17:40:52 Noah: we have work on offline storage (from Ashok) but there are issues about packaging, URIs etc... 17:41:53 the issue is focusing on packaging. There is work going on about widget packaging in WebApps WG 17:42:11 http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/ 17:42:15 discussions in the HTML-WG on app-cache 17:42:55 on reuse of documents that were downloaded (while widget define mandatory to retrieve content) 17:43:21 http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#appcache ? 17:44:08 dka: there were multiple widget packaging format (adobe, opera, nokia...) 17:45:15 also new formats for new devices (google chrome apps for example). 17:46:02 the standardization phase did not start yet for widget, in fact we see an explosion of formats 17:47:16 Noah: are you proposing that the TAG should lead unification ? 17:47:39 DKA: I just proposed this so that the TAG is aware. I don't know who should be driving unification. 17:48:52 q? 17:49:31 ashok: how is packaging webapps different from other packaging? 17:49:46 DKA: widgets are using ZIP, the main difference is the content 17:51:12 Noah: the widget community and the HTML5 community are building different things. widget seems to define a portable platform that happens to use web technologies, while the HTML5 community treat webapps like a normal web document. The two approaches are 17:51:13 different 17:54:28 q+ to be confused by Noah contrasting zip and http 17:54:50 DKA: the widget package is not streamable, that was an issue that was raised 17:55:42 ht: it is strange to make a distinction between zip users and http users 17:56:28 http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets-uri/ 17:57:02 noah: in the widget spec, it tells what a widget is, as a format, and never talks about network access or HTTP. In that case, you are still using HTML CSS and other web technologies. In the HTML5 case, it is different as it comes under the assumption that 17:57:11 it is retrieved through HTTP 17:57:53 with all documents in the package seen as part of things you might have retrieved from the web 17:58:01 q? 17:58:06 ack next 17:58:08 ht_home, you wanted to be confused by Noah contrasting zip and http 17:58:11 ack next 17:59:42 Yves: such package can also be seen as a local cache only, interacting with the way URI dereferencing is done. 18:00:04 it depends if there are notions of URIs of the documents that are in the package or not 18:01:05 And, Yves, you said that the targets of the URIs may be cached in the package 18:01:21 yes 18:02:02 DKA: work on that subject might be an input for furher work done elsewhere 18:02:10 s/furher/further/ 18:02:32 like a workshop 18:03:16 close ACTION-529 18:03:16 ACTION-529 Schedule telcon discussion of a potential TAG product relating to offline applications and packaged Web closed 18:04:25 ACTION Appelquist to propose TAG input, if any, to possible workshop on packaged Web apps Due 2011-05-31 18:04:25 Created ACTION-544 - Propose TAG input, if any, to possible workshop on packaged Web apps Due 2011-05-31 [on Daniel Appelquist - due 2011-04-07]. 18:04:45 Topic: EXI 18:07:28 ht: there are two implementations linked from the WG, 3 implementations from the interop report that are not indentified. 18:07:36 nothing newer than that 18:08:38 From: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2010Apr/0060.html 18:08:42 Yep. 18:08:44 Minutes of April 2010 18:08:49 TBL: would like the TAG to get a report on EXI usage at a future 18:08:49 meeting 18:10:18 HT: I think my report at the Cambridge F2F in January covers it, propose to close ACTION-421 18:10:30 close ACTION-421 18:10:30 ACTION-421 Frame the discussion of EXI deployment at a future meeting closed 18:10:58 Topic: Overdue Action Items 18:11:07 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue?sort=owner 18:11:19 -ht_home 18:11:26 action-514? 18:11:26 ACTION-514 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 -- due 2011-03-01 -- OPEN 18:11:26 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/514 18:11:26 ACTION-514? 18:11:26 ACTION-514 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 -- due 2011-03-01 -- OPEN 18:11:26 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/514 18:12:07 ACTION-514 Due 2011-04-12 18:12:07 ACTION-514 Draft finding on API minimization Due: 2011-02-01 due date now 2011-04-12 18:12:08 DKA: no progress, new deadline april 12 18:12:17 ACTION-460? 18:12:17 ACTION-460 -- Daniel Appelquist to coordinate with IAB regarding next steps on privacy policy -- due 2011-03-08 -- OPEN 18:12:17 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/460 18:13:22 ACTION-460 Due 2011-05-24 18:13:22 ACTION-460 Coordinate with IAB regarding next steps on privacy policy due date now 2011-05-24 18:13:32 ACTION-480? 18:13:32 ACTION-480 -- Daniel Appelquist to draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents Due: 2010-11-01 -- due 2011-03-01 -- OPEN 18:13:32 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/480 18:14:06 ACTION-480 Due 2011-04-12 18:14:06 ACTION-480 Draft overview document framing Web applications as opposed to traditional Web of documents due date now 2011-04-12 18:14:22 ACTION-507? 18:14:22 ACTION-507 -- Daniel Appelquist to with Noah to suggest next steps for TAG on privacy -- due 2011-03-01 -- OPEN 18:14:22 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/507 18:15:51 http://www.w3.org/2011/track-privacy/ 18:16:23 ACTION-507 Due 2011-05-03 18:16:23 ACTION-507 With Noah to suggest next steps for TAG on privacy due date now 2011-05-03 18:17:37 ACTION-537? 18:17:38 ACTION-537 -- Daniel Appelquist to reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction -- due 2011-03-10 -- OPEN 18:17:38 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/537 18:18:04 DKA: Sent something, haven't heard back. 18:18:13 ACTION-537 Due 2011-04-05 18:18:13 ACTION-537 Reach out to Web apps chair to solicit help on framing architecture (incluing terminology, good practice) relating to interaction due date now 2011-04-05 18:18:24 ACTION-341? 18:18:24 ACTION-341 -- Yves Lafon to follow up with Thomas about security review activities for HTML5 -- due 2011-03-29 -- OPEN 18:18:24 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/341 18:18:45 YL: Organizaitonal work still ongoing, will talk to TLR next week. 18:19:32 ACTION-341 Due 2011-04-05 18:19:32 ACTION-341 Follow up with Thomas about security review activities for HTML5 due date now 2011-04-05 18:19:44 ACTION-525? 18:19:44 ACTION-525 -- Noah Mendelsohn to check with John before closing http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/products/2 WebApps access control -- due 2011-03-29 -- OPEN 18:19:44 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/525 18:20:05 ACTION-525 Due 2011-04-05 18:20:05 ACTION-525 Check with John before closing http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/products/2 WebApps access control due date now 2011-04-05 18:20:19 ACTION-379? 18:20:19 ACTION-379 -- Noah Mendelsohn to check whether HTML language reference has been published -- due 2011-03-29 -- OPEN 18:20:19 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/379 18:20:34 ACTION-379 Due 2011-04-05 18:20:34 ACTION-379 Check whether HTML language reference has been published due date now 2011-04-05 18:20:46 ACTION-522? 18:20:46 ACTION-522 -- Noah Mendelsohn to build Tracker product page for HTML/XML Unification -- due 2011-03-29 -- OPEN 18:20:46 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/522 18:20:51 ACTION-522 Due 2011-04-05 18:20:51 ACTION-522 Build Tracker product page for HTML/XML Unification due date now 2011-04-05 18:21:09 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/pendingreview 18:22:19 509 was reopened to trigger discussion when it becomes pending again 18:22:52 -Ashok_Malhotra 18:22:52 Noah: odds are that there might be a call in two weeks only. 18:22:54 -DKA 18:22:55 -Noah_Mendelsohn 18:22:56 -Jonathan_Rees 18:22:57 -JeniT 18:22:58 ADJOURNED 18:22:59 -plinss 18:23:02 -Yves 18:23:04 TAG_Weekly()1:00PM has ended 18:23:06 Attendees were JeniT, Jonathan_Rees, plinss, DKA, Noah_Mendelsohn, Ashok_Malhotra, Yves, ht_home 18:23:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-tagmem-minutes.html Yves