07:21:10 RRSAgent has joined #poiwg 07:21:10 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-irc 07:21:12 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:21:12 Zakim has joined #poiwg 07:21:14 Zakim, this will be UW_POI 07:21:14 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 07:21:15 Meeting: POIWG 2011 F2F #1, Day 3 07:21:15 Date: 31 March 2011 07:21:16 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011#Day_3 07:22:51 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:22:51 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html matt 07:23:08 rrsagent, make logs public 07:23:09 ahill has joined #poiwg 07:23:31 Present: Fons, Ronald, Jonathan, Luca, Jacques, Martin, Alex, Matt 07:24:01 Ronald has joined #poiwg 07:24:46 Regrets: Andy, Gary, Karl, Raj, Dan, Carsten 07:24:04 alex here 07:24:31 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft Core Draft 07:25:33 (aside: I started a conversation with Ron Lake, GML originator yesterday ... he points us to http://www.galdosinc.com/archives/1192 which offers 'dictionary model' for understanding GML's role. I almost mentioned same metaphor yesterday to explain why RDF people avoid SHOULD and MUST in schema design ) 07:26:36 JonathanJ has joined #poiwg 07:26:42 scribe: Ronald 07:26:43 Scribe: Ronald 07:26:51 Topic: AR Vocabulary 07:27:05 jacques has joined #poiwg 07:27:32 martinL has joined #poiwg 07:27:32 matt: we have core draft, ar landscape and ar vocabulary 07:28:14 matt: it was supposed to cover the gap between the core draft and AR 07:28:32 Luca_ has joined #poiwg 07:28:32 matt: I was thinking that while drafting the core, I was imagining that we would run into styles and other things that we might want to move into the ar vocabulary 07:28:36 matt: but we all are focusing on the core 07:28:51 W3C's vocabulary examples #1 - http://www.w3.org/TR/ddr-core-vocabulary/ 07:29:21 matt: question is do we continue to ignore them and focus on the core draft 07:29:21 alex: does the charter say AR landscape, it says AR notes I think 07:29:24 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/charter/#deliverables Charter 07:29:44 examples #2 - http://dev.w3.org/html5/vocabulary/ 07:29:44 matt: there is POI recommendation 07:30:16 matt: AR and web standard is a long name so I renamed it to AR landscape 07:30:47 matt: I put some stuff in the text around the deliverables 07:31:32 matt: I really thought people would say "Here's the core" with a lot of properties and that we needed a place to put the stuff that we did not feel should be in the core 07:32:04 alex: there are 2 worlds, the nokia's and navteq's, and the people who want to use POI in AR 07:32:51 alex: I think we are trying to architect things to not specifically make room for 3D models, images, etc 07:33:14 alex: they would become presentation data that can be attached to the core POI 07:33:29 matt has joined #poiwg 07:34:00 matt: via linking, not saying here is our markup language 07:34:25 alex: I agree with that, but we haven't got a full list of what will be added 07:34:25 matt: maybe we should do more core work before knowing how to progress on this 07:34:40 alex; why don't we have a look at what pieces should go into this 07:35:11 alex: such as mentioning what kind of things people would add to a POI for AR. Like sounds, models, html content, interactivity 07:35:47 martin: things like lines, 3D area, connecting geopoints, coloring, transparency, tons of things 07:36:02 alex: sounds a little like openstreetmap, cartogrophy 07:36:21 alex: some people would argue whether that is AR 07:36:46 martin: for example if you are on a tower and want districts colored, that is AR 07:37:19 alex: agree, these features can be added. but what are they called? 07:37:33 alex: curves, regions 07:37:43 fons: sounds like SVG 07:38:13 alex: in some sense yes, but it may be described a bit different. at a higher level, that is what people want to do, but how we don't know yet 07:38:24 alex: svg could be possible, kml has something as well 07:38:47 alex: and for sound, there are many different ways of doing that as well. mono, html5, spatial 07:38:56 alex: and 3D models 07:39:07 alex: you are going to want some interactivity with these models 07:39:30 alex: maybe an extension to javascript like HTML (hover, click) for easy authoring 07:39:39 alex: or go deeper with X3D and DOM 07:39:46 jacques: or webgl 07:40:05 alex: many things seem obvious, but I want to get them down on a list 07:40:19 matt: I just started collecting some use cases from this discussion 07:40:46 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Vocabulary/Draft 07:40:47 jacques: you are speaking about content, but what about POI and linking POI. Do we want to have the notion of groups of POI in our spec? 07:41:09 luca: also clustering. If there are a lot together, how do we cluster and explode? 07:41:41 luca: in our AR application, we saw that if there are many things close together, you cannot click 07:41:54 I suggest we start from what/how POI can interaction other (POI action) - http://layar.pbworks.com/w/page/30763878/Activity-types-for-POI-actions 07:42:38 ronald: this sounds like something for the AR note as it is a visualisation 07:42:52 luca: don't you think we should have a recommendation in the core spec 07:43:30 alex: I think it is something that might need to be in the core POI 07:43:49 alex: for instance in KML you have folders, and some level of detail control 07:43:54 alex: they have some visualisation paradigms 07:44:11 alex: if you have some on top of each other, you see one POI and it expands if you click on it 07:44:24 alex: this is very much an information visualisation technique 07:44:40 alex: not sure if there is anything structurally in the data controlling that 07:45:17 ronald: that's why I see it as not part of the data model 07:45:25 s/interaction/interact/ 07:45:25 alex: has something to do with occlusion as well 07:45:44 martin: It is more of a feature than part of the data model 07:46:04 alex: I think it is good to mention it in the AR note now 07:48:28 alex: ronald: the clustering seems to be an implementation issue that should use information from categories and relations from the core POI spec 07:49:19 jacques: what if you want to navigate from one POI to another POI. You can switch to google maps or openstreetmap 07:49:30 jacques: you must have a two level navigation system 07:50:14 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/File:POI_Cluster.png Google Earth with a cluster of POIs at same point 07:50:58 jacques: I try to write a format very close to open streep map and link from core POI into the navigation level 07:51:11 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/File:POI_Cluster_explode.png Google Earth with a cluster of POIs at the same point, when clicked upon 07:52:01 alex: let's paraphrase. we need a higher level way of linking POI to POI to POI, and there needs to be a way to link it to a street level navigation system 07:52:07 ahill has joined #poiwg 07:52:29 alex: if we use gml kml, it is easier to link to openstreetmap, but if we write our own core POI it might be more difficult 07:52:56 jacques: we can go with something similar to this, but if we define a format for developers and nobody is using gml. 07:52:56 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:52:56 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ 07:53:03 jacques: gml is dead in some sense 07:53:15 jacques: it is very difficult to find information in gml 07:53:22 jacques: maybe SG 07:53:46 matt: I got an email from the creator of gml. he envisioned gml as a schema language for creating other formats 07:53:54 Present+Matt 07:54:01 matt: for example citygml, but also georss 07:54:01 Present+JonathanJ 07:54:18 matt: he was not envisioning gml being used, but let people subset it 07:54:19 Present+Martin 07:54:29 Present+Luca 07:54:38 jacques: the schema for openstreetmap is 5 lines. that is very compact 07:54:43 Present+Jacques 07:54:48 -> http://www.georss.org/Main_Page GeoRSS 07:54:49 Present+Fons 07:55:24 Present+Ronald 07:55:29 rrsagent, draft minutes 07:55:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ 07:56:40 alex: please show us some examples. if I google georss, I get a main page with an example 07:57:14 Luca_ has joined #poiwg 07:57:34 -> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_Primitives primitives in OSM 07:58:42 -> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/XML_Schema OSM XML Schema 07:58:43 alex: so open street map is made of nodes, point in the world 07:59:05 jacques, we have nodes, ways (bunch of nodes) 07:59:33 jacques: it can have semantic data, links, rfd data 07:59:52 jacques: it is very powerful, nothing is really missing 08:00:00 -> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_features OSM Map Features 08:00:19 jacques: it is very compact and simple. that is why it is so succesful 08:00:51 jacques: if you have a POI format that is close to this, people will more easily move 08:02:23 matt has joined #poiwg 08:02:50 it should be possible to ground a simple format in GML ideas, even if the simple format is CSV/JSON 08:03:14 alex: looks like a different approach. bottom up vs top down 08:03:34 alex: osm looks great. 200.000 developers and succesful 08:03:47 alex: we don't want to ignore and push away this crowd 08:04:09 alex: is it possible to come up with something that satisfies this crowd and everybode else 08:04:20 alex: and everybody else is everybody in this room 08:04:45 alex: there are multiple ways of standardising. one of them is not standardise, and the other is more formal like W3C 08:05:05 jacques: but it is a specified schema that is well defined 08:05:36 matt: we should look at how to look at the "normal" web developer, not just the big data owners 08:05:36 (no jacques in irc?) 08:06:15 jacques: In different AR browsers, there is content from osm. Just search for mtrip 08:06:59 jacques has joined #poiwg 08:07:12 mtrip and "le guide du routard 08:08:06 OSM is great, an amazing achievement, but schema-wise it pushes a lot of modeling into tags 08:08:52 ahill: why can't the POI recommendation be OSM? 08:09:05 ahill: using a schema very similar to OSM 08:09:06 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:09:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ 08:09:18 jacques: it would be possible 08:09:36 jacques: but after that you have to define meta data 08:09:57 ahill: so does that mean all POIs would go into the OSM database 08:10:06 jacques: no, it is just user data 08:10:45 matt, from the map features page, 'OpenStreetMap does not have any content restrictions on tags that can be assigned to OSM-Elements (Nodes , Ways or Relations ). You can use any tags you like as long as the values are verifiable.' 08:10:53 'However, there is a benefit in agreeing to a recommended set of features and corresponding tags in order to create, interpret and display a common basemap. This page contains a core recommended feature set and corresponding tags.' 08:11:02 so it's a kind of wiki approach 08:11:13 I see now, thanks danbri! 08:11:14 if the schema encoded those it would be a bigger schema 08:11:30 so comparing complexity by looking at the size of the schema is only a partial measure 08:11:49 otherwise I'll make a schema with one element :) 08:12:14 reading dandri's comments 08:13:04 I'm off to read about http://linkedgeodata.org/ 08:13:11 (will let you guys get on) 08:15:38 -> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_features#Annotation Display attributes 08:15:59 jacques: schema is small with a lot of semantic data 08:16:17 ahill: but can I get anything out of osm using just the schema? 08:16:58 ahill: judging/evaluating if something is a small schema you need to look at the semantic data 08:17:50 ahill: what does this mean for us. why can't we use this? 08:18:10 ahill: I am thinking that anything we create can be simple enough and it can be easily converted to osm 08:18:19 ahill: but the same applies to gml, kml 08:18:33 ahill: but it does not give me any guidance on how to structure our recommendation 08:19:05 matt: as far as I can tell, all osm is WGS84. so we would need to add our other location constructs 08:19:23 ahill: are there points that are not absolute 08:19:38 jacques: no, everything is to describe points in the world. we would need to add it 08:19:50 jacques: but being close to this spec would help 08:20:51 ahill: is gml more verbose, because we are not relying on convention? 08:20:58 ahill has joined #poiwg 08:21:11 matt: having a namespace will avoid clashes, but still have convention 08:22:10 ahill: is it possible that with osm are less verbose, but if we add more things it becomes not clear to read anymore? 08:23:21 jacques: in a tag you can put an uri to an svg file 08:23:30 jacques: your can reference HTML5, or complex graphical systems 08:23:52 matt: how do you do that in practical. is it on a node? 08:24:08 ahill: how do I render it 08:24:25 matt: is it an idea to make an example POI 08:24:38 jacques: I can provide that 08:25:06 ahill: to me, the discussion is that jacques is a C# guy, and I am a Java guy 08:25:26 ahill: things are expressible in OSM or RDF or XML. This is not the question 08:25:33 jacques: the question is who will be using it 08:25:48 ahill: that is an important question, but I am unprepared to answer this question 08:26:07 ahill: I presume that because we are in W3C, we would create a standard that is W3C like 08:26:08 Luca_ has joined #poiwg 08:26:22 jacques: open street map likes W3C 08:26:32 ahill: so why did osm not approach W3C 08:26:33 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2011Mar/0023.html Danbri's mail about hte spec's users 08:26:37 does W3C like osm? 08:26:40 s/hte/the/ 08:27:22 scribe: martinL 08:28:13 ahill: I have no doubt that we can use ARML or OSM 08:28:55 jacques has joined #poiwg 08:29:07 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:29:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ 08:29:50 Ronald: more than the actual data format, it matters more to define the data model 08:30:12 ahill: We can then map it to a data format 08:30:39 ahill: that's for later to wory about 08:30:58 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2011Mar/0023.html Danbri's mail about hte spec's users 08:31:17 matt has joined #poiwg 08:31:45 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases current use cases 08:32:09 ahill: i like to check the usecases dan proposed 08:33:27 ahill: dan has described a very typical case. somebody wants to publish POI data and looks for guidance (W3C) how to do it and save wasting his time 08:34:09 ahill: let's look it in light of something like OSM 08:34:52 ahill: any examples of OSM playing with RSS (event scheduling etc.)? or are they just mapping streets (that's what i suspect) 08:35:21 ahill: does the community use OSM for other tasks? social data? feeds? news? 08:35:45 jacques: yes - traffic information, other tools, additional layers can be added to the model 08:36:17 jacques: for example REST API to query POIs 08:36:48 ahill: so people already creating POIs in the comunith (classes, add description, the type of information we are talking about) 08:37:04 ahill: tools to create, query APIs exist 08:37:18 ahill: something like SPARQL vs. OSM data? 08:37:27 s/comunith/community/ 08:37:39 jacques: use can use SPARQL to query OSM data, but RESTful API is much simpler 08:37:52 jacques: RESTful interface is faster 08:38:31 [[LinkedGeoData is an effort to add a spatial dimension to the Web of Data / Semantic Web. LinkedGeoData uses the information collected by the OpenStreetMap project and makes it available as an RDF knowledge base according to the Linked Data principles. It interlinks this data with other knowledge bases in the Linking Open Data initiative.]] -- http://linkedgeodata.org/About 08:39:08 ahill: low-level efficiency issues: questions like "Why do you use SPARQL with OSM?" 08:39:40 jaques: with GML, it will take a lot of time to define complex queries 08:40:07 ahill: OSM has simple schema, the query APIs are simple (no complexity) vs. RESTful APIs on complex structures like GML 08:41:23 jacques: Before XML, there was SGML, but it was not successful - they wanted to move to something simpler 08:41:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Generalized_Markup_Language 08:41:49 jacques: We should use something simpler 08:42:13 ahill: message received 08:43:01 ahill: we've talked a lot about it. in the end, we're agnostic. we do not choose OSM over GML or vice versa 08:43:31 ahill: we're not experts in something like timestamps etc. 08:44:22 ahill: Save to say GML is a toolkit of things? 08:44:30 ahill: how do you turn GML into a language? 08:44:32 re query, my take is that we're primarily about data structures; different folk will query it in different ways / environments 08:44:37 ahill: just pick parts of it? 08:44:44 s/Save/Safe/ 08:45:50 ahill: When you look at GeoRSS, there are no new fundamental types, you'll find GML 08:46:27 matt: We can have our own XML and map to these things 08:46:37 matt: or JSON 08:47:19 ahill: Answer to OSM question is: "Nothing" - we won't reject it, but it doesn't provide a way forward to the discussion 08:47:38 Ronald: We should keep OSM in mind to create a mapping to it 08:48:04 ahill: we won't shut out the OSM people 08:48:33 rrsagent, draft minutes 08:48:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-poiwg-minutes.html JonathanJ 08:49:53 ahill has joined #poiwg 08:55:02 Luca has joined #poiwg 08:57:42 aside re SGML, ... the message that announced the Web was http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/1991/08/art-6484.txt says 'SGML (ugh! but standard) mark-up' :) 09:00:10 matt has joined #poiwg 09:05:04 ACTION: Jonathan to merge landscape draft and browser draft into one document 09:05:05 Created ACTION-47 - Merge landscape draft and browser draft into one document [on Jonathan Jeon - due 2011-04-07]. 09:13:11 Ronald has joined #poiwg 09:14:13 ahill: how does OSM handle altitude? 09:14:20 jacques: they are not using it 09:14:37 ahill: that's a concern. elevation is optional? 09:14:42 jacques: yes 09:15:04 ahill: if i make an OSM-based map, where do you get elevation? 09:15:32 jacques: you don't need elevation in navigation 09:15:50 martinL: in AR, elevation matters 09:16:06 ahill: of course, and you care about building 09:16:31 s/building/buildings 09:16:45 jacques: they are using Collada 09:17:02 ahill: let's switch gears 09:17:22 ahill: let's work through the existing data format 09:18:47 ahill has joined #poiwg 09:20:31 matt: we've talked about time, categorization and name 09:20:48 ahill: not all problems are solved, but we are further in the discussion 09:21:50 thanks J but it's not true :( 09:22:09 ahill: for the name primitive, we don't need to take care of things like encoding etc., cause it will come with a specific encoding, that's metadata 09:22:59 ahill: multiple names for POIs in different languages is implementation-specific and will be in the matadata 09:23:26 ahill: we need to decide if a simple name is enough 09:23:50 Ronald: last december, i think we came to a different conclusion 09:23:56 Luca has joined #poiwg 09:24:13 s/different/same/ 09:24:48 sorry for the "typo" :-) 09:26:46 re labels, SKOS has some terminology for labelling: http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-primer/#seclabel and http://www.w3.org/TR/skos-primer/#seclabelsoutsideSKOS ... you can give labels in various languages, and a 'preferred label' 09:27:43 Zakim has left #poiwg 09:27:49 ahill: Preferred Labels is a way of prioritizing labels 09:29:04 matt has joined #poiwg 09:30:25 ahill: this adds to the discussion. a single name is not enough 09:30:37 ahill: charset is a different topic 09:30:48 PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Character set is an implementation detail, will likely be handled at the XML processing level 09:30:48 Ronald: that's implementation 09:30:52 similar example : skos:prefLabel "동물="@kr; 09:31:16 s/@kr/@ko/ 09:31:19 ahill: name is a textual label for a POI 09:31:53 RESOLUTION: Character set issues are an implementation detail that will be handled at the processing level (e.g. by XML processor) 09:32:48 ahill: done 09:33:12 we need to consider I18N issues - http://www.w3.org/International/techniques/developing-specs 09:34:09 ahill: in XML, there is no ordering, we need to define default labels 09:34:27 JonathanJ: we need to find best practices, not read the entire document 09:36:34 Ronald: reading through the best practices, maybe the Resolution should not be 5-4-3-2-1-done ... 09:37:19 matt: created a placeholder for internationalization issues 09:37:23 (the spec(s) will also need review from the Accessibility community) 09:38:02 ahill: suming up: we need labels, but do we want a preferred label vs. alt label 09:38:23 Ronald: did we make a conclusion that label is better than name? 09:38:33 Ronald: i like label better, but personal preference 09:38:54 Luca: What is the difference? 09:39:05 right danbri. Normally, W3C specs need review from horizontal WGs - I18n, Accessibility community 09:39:13 Ronald: name has more meaning 09:39:56 Ronald: i can imagine a lot of POIs where name does not make sense, but label does 09:40:05 Luca: i'm in favor of the labels 09:40:12 ahill: we want to change name to label 09:40:21 Luca: 09:40:27 Luca: we could have both 09:40:35 Ronald: that creates confusion 09:41:27 Luca: When using forsquare, there are tons of names that are different, cause everyone wants to create his own place. 09:41:52 Luca: something that is more concrete, that connects the labels to the official name 09:42:22 ahill: that raises the question of authority 09:42:41 ahill: question: should the data format propose to solve that? 09:43:00 ahill: a boolean saying "This is the important one"? 09:43:17 ahill: I would say no 09:43:26 ahill: "e.g., Who owns the White House? 09:44:06 ahill: there's nothing in HTTP or HTML or so that handles that question 09:44:09 Ronald: agree 09:44:19 ahill: so we use label. what about language? 09:44:36 ahill: should metadata describe different labels for different languages? 09:45:16 matt is typing 09:45:27