IRC log of poiwg on 2011-03-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:17:29 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
07:17:31 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:17:31 [Zakim]
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07:17:33 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be UW_POI
07:17:33 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
07:17:34 [trackbot]
Meeting: Points of Interest Working Group Teleconference
07:17:34 [trackbot]
Date: 30 March 2011
07:17:50 [danbri]
rrsagent, make logs public
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07:23:17 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
07:23:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
07:23:49 [danbri]
yesterday's notes:
07:23:59 [danbri]
draft minutes:
07:25:41 [Luca_]
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07:25:41 [danbri]
07:25:45 [danbri]
discussing recap from yesterday
07:25:49 [danbri]
role/value of rdf
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07:26:11 [cperey]
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07:26:36 [danbri]
oh might be useful, 'Select the name, lowest and highest age ranges, capacity and pupil:teacher ratio for all schools in the Bath & North East Somerset district ' (uk open linked data example)
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07:28:35 [matt__]
trackbot, start meeting
07:28:37 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:28:39 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be UW_POI
07:28:39 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
07:28:40 [trackbot]
Meeting: Points of Interest Working Group Teleconference
07:28:40 [trackbot]
Date: 30 March 2011
07:29:01 [matt]
Chair: Matt
07:29:21 [matt]
Present: Matt, Alex, Christine, Martin, Luca, Fons, Jacques, Jonathan, Dan, Ronald, Thomas, Bertine
07:30:01 [JonathanJ]
see yesterday's minutes :
07:30:10 [matt]
07:30:18 [danbri]
JonathanJ, yes I think that might be useful. Perhaps in terms of exploiting externally maintained data (e.g. school-related info)
07:30:22 [matt]
Topic: Introductions
07:31:26 [danbri]
ahill2 mentioning eg. from yesterday, ... not a POI but potentially a movie showing in a local POI
07:33:03 [danbri]
ronald, see also
07:36:05 [matt]
[[introductions around the table again]]
07:36:38 [danbri]
15 Gigs of OSM data: ftp://ftp.spline -dontcrashyourbrowser- .de/pub/openstreetmap/planet-110323.osm.bz2
07:37:14 [ahill2_]
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07:38:13 [matt]
Maritn: I'm the CTO of Mobilizy/Wikitude.
07:38:42 [matt]
Thomas: Bertine and I are working on an AR browser at a company called LostAgain.
07:38:51 [matt]
i/Introductions/scribe: matt/
07:38:57 [matt]
cperey: Who has implemented a browser?
07:39:07 [matt]
[[everyone but Matt and Dan]]
07:39:22 [matt]
scribe: cperey
07:39:36 [cperey_]
Matt: new agenda
07:39:41 [matt]
-> Day 2 Agenda
07:39:58 [danbri]
'lost again':
07:40:05 [cperey_]
Matt: AR Landscape Drafts
07:40:32 [cperey_]
Matt: what Jonathan has put up and the AR vocabulary, to extend the core work, what is the shape of this, get an editor
07:40:34 [jacques]
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07:41:37 [cperey_]
Matt: AlexH: do we have room for AR Notes? Yes, Landscape Note is part of what we will do
07:41:41 [cperey_]
Matt: our charter
07:41:46 [matt]
-> POI Charter
07:42:36 [cperey_]
Matt: first is POI recommendation. Then, the charter says that we will produce two AR Notes. A note is slightly less rigorous thing
07:43:17 [cperey_]
Matt: could be published on our web site. Vocabulary to extend teh core recommendation Might include presentational characteristics... could include anything
07:43:28 [cperey_]
Matt: we have started the Vocabulary at all yet
07:43:37 [cperey_]
Matt: have NOT started yet
07:44:08 [danbri]
07:44:10 [cperey_]
Matt: we have AR Landscape.
07:44:12 [danbri]
07:44:16 [matt]
07:44:46 [matt]
scribe: matt
07:44:46 [matt]
cperey: It's not a gap analysis document
07:45:01 [matt]
cperey: This is more of a product feature landscape an inventory of what's in the products today.
07:45:28 [matt]
cperey: I'm looking to codify the standards that describe the different functional blocks that AR uses.
07:45:36 [matt]
scribe: cperey
07:47:28 [matt]
scribe: matt
07:47:53 [matt]
cperey: I think that this is will focus on those parts that are about making AR on the Web. There may be scenarios where there is a client.
07:48:28 [matt]
scribe: cperey
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07:48:58 [cperey_]
matt: this is just a starting point. we will discuss it
07:49:16 [cperey_]
Ronald: is this group chartered to look at the full range of AR?
07:49:24 [cperey_]
Ronald: or are we going to focs on POI
07:49:35 [cperey_]
Matt: we are broader than just the POI in this area
07:49:53 [cperey_]
bit from the charter... Dan... we should begin the conversations
07:50:09 [cperey_]
Matt: there is distinct possibility that when we get core draft done, we can recharter
07:50:19 [cperey_]
Alex: but I tihnk what Ronald is asking about is the AR note
07:50:23 [matt]
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07:50:30 [danbri]
(so where are we collecting info about geo APIs: e.g. ...etc etc ...?)
07:50:36 [cperey_]
Alex: my feeling that the AR notes was restricted to what this group is chartered to speak about
07:50:53 [cperey_]
what is the POI we are putting forward and how it applies to AR
07:51:02 [matt_]
danbri, I'd suggest adding them to:
07:51:20 [cperey_]
Alex: if it includes talking about 3D, then great, it probably means that talking about Device APIs, we don't need to cover the whole gamut
07:51:47 [cperey_]
Alex: in some sense, a landscape of all existing browser is not a requirement of our discussion, to understand how we go forward
07:52:01 [cperey_]
Alex: it is not necessarily in our charter that we cover all of that depth
07:52:04 [danbri]
'The WG may also publish use case and requirements, primers and best practices for Points of Interest as Working Group Notes. ' --
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07:52:21 [cperey__]
Matt: should we look at list of mobile user agents on browser page
07:52:33 [danbri]
(so if someone e.g. wanted to make a 'how real projects are putting geo-related info in QR Codes, imho that'd be in scope for a separate Note)
07:52:51 [cperey__]
martin: supported platforms could be added to the tables
07:53:00 [cperey__]
Matt: Jonathan how d you want to proceed?
07:53:17 [cperey__]
Jonathan: I'd like to talk about the document
07:53:37 [cperey__]
Jonathan:as mentioned, the landscape is main document, browser document is the details of one area
07:53:52 [cperey__]
Jonathan: I have discussed with many Korean people and community
07:54:08 [cperey]
Jonathan: gathered many criteria so far
07:54:34 [Luca_]
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07:54:37 [cperey]
Jonathan: first, is the comparison targets. I think we need to make a narrow scope for AR apps
07:54:45 [danbri]
(matt_, ok I've added them to )
07:55:02 [cperey]
Jonathan: because too many applications in AR domain. We can make technical specification for our standard. We need to narrow the scope
07:55:42 [cperey]
Jonathan: I have written the features. First the .. second, linking to web services, third is rendering, fourth is...
07:55:57 [cperey]
Jonathan: Collected a list in the document, about 13 products
07:56:48 [cperey]
Jonathan: Christine made some comments. this are on the page
07:57:54 [cperey]
Alex: where do we the line? our browser is not commercially supproted
07:58:28 [cperey]
Alex: it is in teh iTunes store but anyone can make an application. it's penetration is negligible but the features are important because it demonstrates some of what we are talking about
07:58:45 [cperey]
Alex: some applications/user agents don't codify AR, read it...
07:59:06 [cperey]
Thomas: the data standard must look at main commercial ones. because if the standard can't do what they say that they do
07:59:36 [cperey]
Martin: mixare is downloadable, available outside of the laboratory environment
08:00:15 [cperey]
Jonathan: need to consider extensibility
08:00:29 [cperey]
Alex: the list is probably right.
08:00:39 [cperey]
Martin: as soon as something is publically in use
08:01:07 [cperey]
Matt: we stop collecting when we have all the features covered
08:01:11 [cperey]
Alex: Goggles is AR
08:01:17 [cperey]
Recognizes a POI
08:01:26 [cperey]
information about the pOI pops up
08:01:39 [cperey]
Alex: it may have features
08:02:07 [cperey]
Thomas: API for visual recognition engine could be on their roadmap. The feature that they have is one which AR browsers will have
08:02:16 [cperey]
Ronald: Visual Search and AR will merge
08:02:28 [cperey]
Martin: we can't separately Geo and Visual
08:02:46 [cperey]
Alex/Thomas: Nokia Point and Find should be added
08:02:58 [matt_]
ACTION: Jonathan to add Nokia Point and Find:
08:02:58 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-38 - Add Nokia Point and Find: [on Jonathan Jeon - due 2011-04-06].
08:03:07 [matt_]
ACTION: Jonathan to fix link for Wikitude
08:03:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-39 - Fix link for Wikitude [on Jonathan Jeon - due 2011-04-06].
08:03:45 [cperey]
Alex: Nokia Point and Find at some point you could download it for a phone
08:04:05 [cperey]
Alex: some features I've seen demoed, are not available to everyone, but worth looking at and considering again
08:04:23 [JonathanJ]
I was referenced a good report from edinbergh univ. -
08:04:23 [JonathanJ]
08:04:27 [danbri]
q+ to ask about qrcodes
08:04:43 [cperey]
Alex: some of the things that Petros mentioned , aggregating POIs into footprint of buildings
08:04:50 [cperey]
Alex: street view like browsing
08:04:58 [cperey]
Alex: so does StreetView belong on this list
08:05:08 [cperey]
Thomas: and you can use the gyro in your phone to see things
08:05:17 [matt_]
-> Petro's and Nokia's position paper:
08:05:21 [cperey]
Alex: it's not strictly AR
08:05:28 [matt_]
s|-> Petro's and Nokia's position paper:||
08:05:35 [cperey]
but what should we be focused on?
08:05:38 [matt_]
-> Petro/Nokia's position paper
08:05:47 [matt_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:05:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt_
08:05:50 [matt_]
08:05:58 [cperey]
Alex: I want to say that the definition is not tight or exclusive to keep StreetView and Goggles out
08:06:04 [cperey]
Alex: these are close enough to be considered here
08:06:07 [ahill2]
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08:06:08 [matt_]
close ACTION-39
08:06:08 [trackbot]
ACTION-39 Fix link for Wikitude closed
08:06:14 [cperey]
Alex: it's remote, browser based, worth considering
08:06:41 [cperey]
Thomas: AR is a potential output method, the same data can be viewed on many different applications, in an AR form if appropriate
08:06:49 [cperey]
Thomas: non-issue what you call AR or not
08:07:01 [cperey]
Alex: and at some point there will be a maturation of this definition
08:07:15 [cperey]
Alex: like VR, lots of things expanded outside the original definition
08:07:30 [danbri]
08:07:31 [matt_]
ack next
08:07:32 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to ask about qrcodes
08:07:32 [danbri]
ack danbri
08:07:34 [cperey]
It's a visualization method for POI
08:07:41 [cperey]
Dan: what about QR codes?
08:07:54 [cperey]
Dan: I find AR unconstrained, it's fine, does lots of cool things
08:08:00 [jacques]
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08:08:04 [cperey]
Dan: useful for navigation in real time
08:08:14 [cperey]
Dan: QR codes are quite well understood technoogy
08:08:50 [cperey]
I'd like to make a pitch that they are in scope for this group
08:09:02 [cperey]
Dan: I just want one standards thing taht is part of QR code
08:09:04 [matt_]
-> GIST QR codes
08:09:17 [cperey]
Thomas: AR should be small enough to act as a direct link to the data
08:09:21 [matt_]
->[GIST]QR_Code_Data_Representation_for_AR.pdf QR Code Data Representation for AR
08:09:30 [cperey]
Thomas: QR code is very limited in what and how much it can store
08:09:52 [cperey]
Alex: I second what Dan is saying
08:10:19 [danbri]
can we resolve unanimously that this group hopes to make some contribution around the use of QR codes for POIs? (whether documenting existing practice, or suggesting a design...)
08:10:19 [cperey]
Alex: for the notes, for us considering the implications of a POI standard, this use case of seeing a QR code and sanpping it is applicable
08:10:23 [cperey]
Alex: it should be in scope
08:10:36 [cperey]
Martin: looking at the list, these are all mobile applications
08:10:48 [cperey]
Martin: we should also include in scope non-mobile applications
08:11:04 [cperey]
Martin: like Total Immersion things on desktop
08:11:20 [cperey]
Alex: but didn't you (Jonathan) want to restrict it to mobile browsers
08:11:26 [danbri]
re QR code capacity, see my thread last year on lengths of URIs 'in the wild'
08:11:31 [cperey]
Alex: at the same time, you could imagine street view
08:11:46 [cperey]
if you have been excluding it from teh discussion is the wrong thing to do
08:12:08 [cperey]
Thomas: it would be ludicrous if you had to pull down data from one source for desktop and a different place for mobile
08:12:17 [danbri]
oops wrong link. 'URI length statistics "in the wild"?'
08:12:20 [cperey]
Thomas: for content providers that would be a show breaker
08:12:43 [cperey]
we want to avoid all the systems that labs have done but at the same time, it is appropriate to include StreetView
08:12:55 [cperey]
Alex: I recommend that it be included in the list
08:13:14 [cperey]
Thomas: if you are dealing with image relative position, there is a great advantage to including them
08:13:31 [cperey]
Thomas: at the end of the day it is a marker and a model (3D model) on the marker
08:13:53 [cperey]
Thomas: a standard way of associating a marker and a 3D model regardless of where it is would be useful
08:13:58 [cperey]
Jonathan: we need more time
08:14:11 [cperey]
Luca: my feeling for AR is that it is something that you put on the real world
08:14:34 [cperey]
for example, StreetView it is not exactly AR. Desktop can be included as long as you use a webcam to put things in teh real world
08:14:57 [JonathanJ]
It is not problem, what product is included or excluded
08:15:01 [cperey]
Luca: for me, for what I include when I think AR, it is display of information on top of the real world. Google Maps is not AR. You do not see the real world
08:15:21 [danbri]
Luca, not everyone can see...
08:15:25 [cperey]
Alex: if you are walking down the street and you take away the background
08:15:38 [cperey]
Jacques: you are switching from AR to mixed reaity
08:15:47 [cperey]
Dan: is AR only for people with good vision
08:16:02 [cperey]
Thomas: geo-located sound is in scope
08:16:24 [cperey]
Alex: he's talking about it is synthesized background. but if you take away the backgrond ad you see the same content, the same rendering engine is doing
08:16:29 [cperey]
Alex: that is Ar
08:16:34 [JonathanJ]
I don't think AR only for people with good vision.
08:16:46 [cperey]
Luca: because we don't have to be on the street for us to have AR experience
08:17:15 [cperey]
Luca; I don't want to say that only geo located can be AR. It can be visual recognition, sensors, printers, etc all of this is included and in scope
08:17:30 [matt__]
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08:17:36 [JonathanJ]
ISSUE: what AR is our scope
08:17:36 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-6 - What AR is our scope ; please complete additional details at .
08:18:07 [cperey]
Alex: overall features.... is there anything on this list that doesn't make sense. I see the idea. Does it have an SDK
08:18:17 [cperey]
Alex: is it using Points of Interest?
08:18:39 [cperey]
Jonathan: I can see that filling out this table is going to get messy. Everyone is going to be full of caveats
08:18:56 [cperey]
Thomas: what user interaection standards should be defined
08:19:03 [cperey]
Thomas: define a click action
08:19:25 [cperey]
Alex: for me the biggest differentiation is Web 1.0 and Web 2.0
08:19:42 [cperey]
Alex: whether you can put your finger on it and stretch the world, manipulate the model
08:19:55 [cperey]
Alex: data representation is an important faeture to add
08:20:10 [cperey]
Alex: I think is of value. We use KML and HTML for Argon
08:20:20 [cperey]
Alex: I don't know what Acrossair does
08:20:51 [cperey]
Martin: Acrossair is closd and proprietary system
08:21:12 [cperey_]
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08:21:17 [cperey]
Alex: edits into the document
08:21:38 [cperey]
Thomas: should the data representation be separate from teh POI? Is that important? Is that relevant to discuss
08:21:49 [cperey]
ALex: for first pass, we list what we know about these things.
08:22:11 [cperey]
filling in the table
08:22:49 [cperey]
Alex: does anyone at this table know anything about Google Goggles data representation
08:23:02 [cperey]
Thomas: it is probsbly going to be like MapAPI
08:23:28 [Luca_]
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08:24:06 [martinL]
08:25:32 [cperey]
Alex: how they do it. this is where the rubber meets the road
08:25:35 [fons]
08:25:51 [cperey]
Ronald: you get XML back and you get a URL to which you can go
08:26:10 [cperey]
Alex: is that a POI? Did it return a POI?
08:26:35 [cperey]
Martin: is a POI tied to a location?
08:27:02 [cperey]
Alex: if I'm standing in front of building, and I shoot an image, and I get the name of the building, have I got a POI?
08:27:05 [cperey]
Alex: yes
08:27:29 [cperey]
Thomas: whatever links the real world to the virtual content is POI
08:27:48 [cperey]
Alex: I pick up my phone and I look at the courtyard and I see a Polar bear. it is ar
08:28:16 [cperey]
Alex: nothing is there but a lot of people who argue it is a POI
08:28:25 [cperey]
Alex: sometims these lines are difficult to draw
08:28:45 [cperey]
Alex: we agree that kooaba is returning data and POI
08:29:06 [cperey]
Ronald: It's JSON. No ties to any other standards at this time
08:29:16 [cperey]
Alex: but the JSON is returning POI and data
08:30:01 [cperey]
Alex: maybe because what we need is a column that describs how we are triggering in some sense
08:30:20 [cperey]
Have it in the table
08:31:17 [cperey]
why don't we change user interaction
08:31:34 [cperey]
Dan: finish the column
08:32:10 [cperey]
Dan: ovijet
08:32:16 [cperey]
put proprietary
08:32:27 [cperey]
Jonathan: tey are visual search
08:32:52 [fons]
08:32:58 [fons]
rrsagent, draft minutes
08:32:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate fons
08:33:33 [cperey]
Alex: what is sekaicamera
08:33:52 [cperey]
Alex: it is social AR in geospace
08:34:13 [fons]
08:34:14 [cperey]
Alex: this doesn't answer the question of data representation
08:34:38 [cperey]
Sekai camera is also JSON
08:34:43 [matt__]
-> Mixare JSON docs
08:34:50 [cperey]
Alex: wikitude
08:35:00 [cperey]
Martin: ARML, based on KML
08:35:00 [ahill2]
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08:35:13 [cperey]
Alex: when we say KML we mean XML
08:35:34 [cperey]
Thomas: the format is same but KML has things already sorted , already specifies location
08:35:50 [cperey]
Alex: what is the difference between name space and ...
08:36:09 [cperey]
markup language
08:36:18 [cperey]
XML was born as a simplification of SGML
08:36:37 [cperey]
Dan: it XML was created, they wanted to interleaved
08:37:43 [matt__]
xmlns is the default, prefix is the non-default ones
08:38:16 [danbri]
re XML namespaces see
08:39:04 [JonathanJ]
There are a missing point. I want to compare from 1st cloumn (Data Representation) what they support 2D, 3D format.
08:46:24 [matt_]
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09:04:57 [cperey]
we're back
09:05:28 [cperey]
Alex: it's become obvious that we need to focus on our objective. We don't have time to flesh out the document here
09:05:35 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:05:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
09:05:59 [cperey]
Alex: we need to focus on what's available and how our POI standard effect people who want to deliver AR
09:06:05 [cperey]
Alex: how do we answer that
09:06:08 [cperey]
09:06:08 [matt_]
-> Snesor
09:06:50 [cperey]
Matt: technologies listed here. some with work going on in W3C
09:06:56 [JonathanJ]
09:07:05 [cperey]
Matt: gyroscope work in progress
09:07:18 [cperey]
Matt: microphone work in progress
09:07:26 [cperey]
Thomas: these are all very big things,
09:07:39 [cperey]
martin: there are other people doing work on these
09:07:53 [cperey]
Martin: as a reference, we should point to others who are working on this
09:08:03 [cperey]
Dan: I don't see video feed here
09:08:27 [jacques]
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09:08:48 [cperey]
Jonathan: add camera input
09:08:56 [cperey]
Matt: add the applicable standards
09:09:03 [cperey]
Alex: where are we going to put this
09:09:23 [matt_]
scribe: ahill2_
09:11:18 [ahill2]
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09:11:36 [ahill2]
thomas: should we separate device access standards from POI standards?
09:12:05 [cperey]
09:12:07 [matt_]
ACTION: matt to add links to existing standards
09:12:07 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-40 - Add links to existing standards [on Matt Womer - due 2011-04-06].
09:12:26 [danbri]
(finished editing now)
09:12:38 [cperey]
09:13:38 [ahill2]
09:14:45 [ahill2]
thomas: what about user rotation in the POI spec?
09:15:05 [ahill2]
ronald: we've discussed the orientation of content, but not the orientation of the user
09:15:18 [matt_]
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09:15:55 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:15:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
09:15:56 [matt_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:15:56 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt_
09:15:59 [ahill2]
martin: we need to separate meta data of POI, geo-location and data representation (visualization)
09:16:39 [matt_]
scribe: cperey
09:16:55 [cperey]
martin: we need a clear separation. We go to this point and not further
09:17:08 [cperey]
Alex: I never felt that our responsibility would be to render teh content
09:17:19 [cperey]
Alex: the question is how do we facilitate teh data coming with the POI
09:17:45 [cperey]
Thomas: there is some overlap, may want inline data with teh POI you don't want to link to a remote text file if you want only a two line...
09:17:52 [cperey]
Bertine: maybe a CSS?
09:18:06 [cperey]
Alex: we all have in our minds, ideas of POIs that include lable and description
09:18:22 [cperey]
Alex: you're saying that's so cannonical that we don't want an extra standards for describing that
09:18:33 [cperey]
Alex: does this argue that there should be a place in teh standard to relate that?
09:18:43 [cperey]
Thomas: you wouldn't embed a JPEG in an HTML page
09:19:00 [cperey_]
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09:19:04 [cperey]
Thomas: same with a model. If you have a short bit of text it makes more sense for it to be in line
09:19:06 [cperey]
Thomas: it has to be related
09:19:26 [cperey]
Thomas: needs to be standard for a simple label annotation. It needs to be in a Standard
09:19:46 [cperey]
Ronald: we have name primitive in our browser
09:19:56 [cperey]
Ronald: style sheet is not directly part of POI Spec
09:20:19 [cperey]
Ronald: you can say that POI Spec has a couple of fields but up to the specific browser to show content of a particular type
09:20:35 [cperey]
Thomas: but does the creator of content want to specify how it is visualized?
09:20:45 [cperey]
Ronald: yes, but not in the POI spec
09:21:10 [cperey]
Ronald: the question is if it is part of POI. Or if you have a link to the visualization within the POI
09:21:14 [Luca]
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09:21:19 [cperey]
ThomasL should POI include a class reference
09:21:26 [cperey]
Martin: KML does something like that
09:21:37 [cperey]
Essentially what you have is an XML represetnation of a POI
09:21:55 [cperey]
Martin: do we define a new POI standard. KML defines almost everything we have talked about
09:22:19 [cperey]
Martin: our proposal is to eliminate all of the stuff we do not need in AR
09:22:35 [cperey]
Martin: we pull the KML tags we need and we add AR tags we need
09:22:56 [cperey]
Alex: let's say that the way you describe coordinates, if you disagree with that then you would be leaving the standard
09:23:13 [cperey]
Thomas: simple differences like Lat vs. Latitude
09:23:45 [cperey]
Alex: funny to hear say that. Dan was showing how we could put RDFa into a web page. Lots of angle brackets. Seems a little verbose
09:24:02 [cperey]
Alex: point of view, perspective changes the definition of "verbose"
09:24:54 [cperey]
probably not worth it for us to invent another way to represent
09:25:13 [cperey]
Alex: at some point we are going to need to peruse other standards and come up with ways to improve them
09:25:16 [cperey]
WGS84, etc
09:25:29 [matt_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:25:29 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt_
09:25:43 [cperey]
Alex: we need to get down to brass tacks and say who's description we are adopting and what we think it is going to look at
09:25:53 [matt_]
trackbot, close action-40
09:25:53 [trackbot]
ACTION-40 Add links to existing standards closed
09:26:11 [cperey]
Alex: wouldn't necessarily throw out KML if verbose, if millions of people are using it
09:26:38 [cperey]
Thomas: you establish key value pairs and maybe in a few year's time, the changes may come
09:26:52 [cperey]
Matt: eXdInterchange
09:27:22 [danbri]
re XML compression, see Efficient XML Interchange Evaluation
09:27:23 [matt_]
-> Efficient XML Interchange WG and specs
09:27:23 [danbri]
"This Working Group Note is an evaluation of the Efficient XML Interchange (EXI) Format 1.0 with reference to the Properties identified by the XML Binary Characterization (XBC) Working Group, relative to XML, gzipped XML and ASN.1 PER. It is conducted using the XBC Measurement methodology. "
09:27:24 [JonathanJ]
matt, I think we need cooperate with DAP -
09:27:31 [cperey]
Alex: back to KML, we were talking about representation.... I'm not... not to say it's not the right way to approach it but in our KARML version, we take desription tag
09:28:03 [cperey]
and it is HTML. YOu can have styles. Put some text in and browser would render as a default, but you can add HTML for presentaiton. You could imagine extending , add some SVG instead
09:28:23 [cperey]
Alex: so in that case, now the data is inline with the POI
09:29:04 [cperey]
Alex: the isue is that in some circumstances we want a link to presentation data. so effectively, we get the POI data, it has a link to Web Page, and that's the data we want to present in AR
09:29:24 [cperey]
Alex: yesterday we were looking at the entire web page. bottm line is the minimal set that we want to allow people to inline
09:29:31 [cperey]
Dan: there are part of the HTML ....
09:29:42 [cperey]
you can ask it to bring back a really simple version
09:29:56 [cperey]
Dan: can't remember the header names. At the HTTP level thre's a whole set of ...
09:30:29 [matt_]
alex: How common is content negotiation?
09:30:30 [cperey]
09:30:48 [matt_]
matt: Depends on the content types. For instance, most browsers support saying "I accept HTML, and gzipped HTML" -- this is widely deployed.
09:30:54 [cperey]
content negotiaion, if we define a format with its own MIME type, one of its characteristics could be its compressed
09:31:06 [cperey]
Dan: wikipedia might implement it
09:31:13 [danbri]
09:31:31 [cperey]
Ronald: web servers also try to figure out what type to send
09:31:48 [cperey]
Alex: but that's not reducing what gets sent, it is an efficiency
09:31:49 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:31:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
09:31:57 [cperey]
Thomas: yes it is
09:32:47 [ahill2_]
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09:32:51 [cperey]
Martin: one question return to. What metadata
09:33:15 [cperey]
Martin: do we really need a separate POI Standard separate from what already exists? can't we just pull out what we need form KML?
09:33:24 [cperey]
Marin: what tags would we really need?
09:33:29 [cperey]
Alex: we agree with you in general
09:33:47 [cperey]
Matt: we would take a profile of GML and augment iwth our specific vocabulary
09:33:59 [cperey]
THomas: we need metadata. If there's an existing standard we should use it
09:34:11 [danbri]
(re existing standards, also )
09:34:13 [cperey]
Alex: we only chose KML because it was the broadest adopted markup
09:34:20 [JonathanJ]
09:34:27 [cperey]
Not because we said it was the most/best
09:34:39 [cperey]
Alex: so yes, if you say GML, I agree
09:34:49 [cperey]
Alex: I imagine in the future what we are adding to the dialog is quite small
09:34:55 [cperey]
Yes, it could be a profiel of GML.
09:35:01 [cperey]
Martin and Alex are in agreement
09:35:02 [danbri]
q+ to assert that extensions shouldn't be an afterthought
09:35:07 [JonathanJ]
09:35:16 [matt_]
ack next
09:35:17 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to assert that extensions shouldn't be an afterthought
09:35:20 [cperey]
Dan: yeah there's all these existing standards
09:35:33 [cperey]
Dan: we've already begun picking up common elements
09:35:46 [cperey]
Dan: story how they are the same is useful. Strongest we can do is extensibility
09:36:13 [cperey]
Dan: figuring out the specific use cases, to specify how different datasets are reprsented
09:36:28 [cperey]
Dan: connecting hop between what other's do and what AR does/needs is what we can do
09:36:53 [cperey]
Thomas: ...
09:37:13 [cperey]
Thomas: it needs to be automatically coming up when the conditinos are right
09:37:55 [cperey]
Dan: value adding services need to be able to bring out their data and the people to publish POI data to provide connections between their data and other data without W3C coming up with new vocabulary
09:38:10 [cperey]
Thomas doesn't need to define a movie database format
09:38:26 [cperey]
Dan: example of semantic markup,
09:38:39 [matt_]
scribe: Matt
09:39:05 [matt_]
ahill2_: When you say linked data is the way to go, can you describe it? I'm walking down the street looking for particular data, and you're talking about returning links?
09:39:13 [matt_]
Thomas: machine readable links.
09:40:02 [matt_]
ahill2_: My browser could follow these links and add information from these databases. We don't need to reinvent how to do that by any means.
09:40:12 [matt_]
ahill2_: What do we need to do to facilitate this?
09:40:27 [matt_]
ahill2_: Some people might argue that we would need a registry to facilitate these things.
09:40:31 [matt_]
Thomas: I don't think so.
09:40:42 [matt_]
danbri: Maybe at a high level to bring them all together, but the Web is it's own regsitry.
09:41:17 [JonathanJ]
see Linked Data -
09:41:19 [matt_]
danbri: I'm walking along and my phone is relating my location to some service. I get a notification that there is a movie playing nearby with actors you like in it.
09:41:39 [matt_]
ahill2_: My project is relaying this to proxies who then go find this information out, rather than from the device directly.
09:42:21 [matt_]
ahill2_: What is the difference between agent based semweb stuff and AR?
09:42:27 [matt_]
thomas: I don't think there is one.
09:42:36 [matt_]
ahill2_: Good, rather than reinvent the wheel we can piggy-back on other efforts.
09:43:13 [matt_]
cperey: I want to throw a monkey wrench in this: you haven't paid for this information. There should be a token to authorize that agent. It's not all just for free.
09:43:39 [matt_]
-> scratch pad
09:44:04 [matt_]
cperey: Then there are ethics, laws. Is this person looking for illegal stuff?
09:44:12 [matt__]
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09:44:25 [matt__]
cperey: I just looked at a building and it had one picture, but now it has another, who has the rights for changing that?
09:44:39 [matt__]
Thomas: I don't think that's up for us to implement it.
09:44:46 [matt__]
cperey: Don't you want it in a standardized fashion?
09:44:57 [matt__]
Thomas: There are already standards for these things, SSL, certificates, etc.
09:45:06 [matt__]
cperey: Then we need to write that there are other standards that we could use.
09:45:15 [matt__]
ahill2_: I don't see the AR uniqueness here. So we don't have to worry about it then.
09:45:21 [matt__]
Ronald: There are security standards.
09:45:22 [danbri]
09:45:27 [matt__]
ahill2_: People are solving those problems already.
09:45:38 [matt__]
cperey: People aren't solving the problem of predatory real-estate.
09:45:58 [matt__]
Thomas: There's not going to be a one-to-one relationship, the user choses to accept whatever datapublisher they wish.
09:46:19 [matt__]
Thomas: If I use a mail service, I'm going to have their ads, that's known. Whatever source we use is going to be responsible for the adverts, etc.
09:47:13 [danbri]
q+ to say 3 things before brain fills up: i) thinking about incentives is good; in my simple scenario, tushinki haveincentive to get customers ii) those are real social issues iii) oauth is a big piece of this puzzle, and the mobile apps will be thin, logic will live in backends attached to accounts (eg. groupon might give me advance notice of around-town events)
09:47:23 [matt__]
ahill2_: Another thing we're doing in Argon is offloading to the proxy server under the acknowledgement that search becomes a bigger issue when you walk over to a place and it has 1000 POIs, that's a mess. Your trust network, who your friends or whatever, is really going to affect it.
09:47:31 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:47:31 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
09:47:47 [matt__]
ahill2_: We have to acknowledge that at one location there will be a large number of things people have vied to get there.
09:47:51 [matt__]
ack danbri
09:47:51 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to say 3 things before brain fills up: i) thinking about incentives is good; in my simple scenario, tushinki haveincentive to get customers ii) those are real
09:47:55 [Zakim]
... social issues iii) oauth is a big piece of this puzzle, and the mobile apps will be thin, logic will live in backends attached to accounts (eg. groupon might give me advance
09:47:58 [Zakim]
... notice of around-town events)
09:48:03 [cperey]
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09:48:17 [matt__]
danbri: You're right to think about incentives. In the movie case, they want customers. If we do something as simple as Facebook, they'll get customers.
09:48:26 [matt__]
danbri: The social issues exist. We'll have to look at them.
09:49:05 [matt__]
danbri: And last, oauth is a big piece of this. They want their app to work and be deployable to lots of devices. OAuth seems to be the solution of choice at the moment for that.
09:49:22 [matt__]
Thomas: I think there is a lot of power to come from it. I don't think it's up to us to decide on that.
09:49:40 [matt__]
Thomas: The spec shouldn't require a third part auth.
09:50:06 [matt__]
Ronald: Responding to Christine's suggestion to standardize the too much content problem: I'm not sure that's really feasible. Are search engine results standardized in how they order things?
09:50:09 [Luca]
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09:50:15 [matt__]
Ronald: No. That area of discovery of information, I'm not sure it's standardizable.
09:50:32 [matt__]
Ronald: It's a real problem for AR, but not necessarily one that gets solved by standardization.
09:50:54 [matt__]
Thomas: It's a big issue and so much room for innovation that I think that is where clients will differentiate.
09:51:20 [matt__]
cperey: How do you formulate the query could be standardized, but not how the response is formulated.
09:52:01 [matt__]
cperey: When I heard query POI I was thinking: "Oh, that's talking about a directory of POIs", which isn't the same thing as querying.
09:52:23 [matt__]
cperey: "These are my circumstances, here's a query for that" vs a directory of layers/channels.
09:52:33 [danbri]
(ahill2_, if someone queries for Amsterdam Red Light District, their AR service(s) should route them to )
09:52:37 [danbri]
(but that's a marketplace thing)
09:53:14 [matt__]
Ronald: In the end from our findings, it was quite difficult to get to something that the user really valued.
09:53:23 [matt__]
ahill2_: With them being the authority.
09:53:54 [matt__]
ahill2_: No one on the web has defined how to index content in a standardized way.
09:54:23 [matt__]
cperey: There's SEO. In libraries we used the Dewey decimal system and found that to be useful.
09:54:45 [matt__]
bertine: I think the difference with the library example is that books are static.
09:55:00 [matt__]
Thomas: It could start off fantastic and then get swamped with ads.
09:55:25 [matt__]
Thomas: The order shouldn't be defined, but the request could be, is that right?
09:55:44 [matt__]
Martin: Web pages care about being ordered, but that's all search engine based.
09:55:55 [matt__]
Ronald: There is part of the HTML specification with keyword metadata.
09:56:12 [matt__]
Ronald: That gives content providers a way to find the right information.
09:56:26 [matt__]
ahill2_: Sounds like when possible we could leverage such things.
09:56:32 [matt__]
Thomas: metadata on the Web isn't useful anymore, hard to trust.
09:56:51 [matt__]
Thomas: search engines basically ignore metadata these days.
09:57:06 [matt__]
ahill2_: That's a shifting tide thing though. Might have been useful years ago though.
09:57:08 [danbri]
google do use
09:57:14 [matt__]
ahill2_: So how do we standardize around it?
09:57:44 [matt__]
Thomas: There will likely be AR search engines that look into the AR data and figure out if it's being abused.
09:57:49 [danbri]
(you need another signal for trust and quality, eg. google rank, or facebook LIKE, ... then metadata can be exploited)
09:58:06 [matt__]
cperey: Is this matching our agenda?
09:58:20 [matt__]
matt: Is it what the group wants to talk about?
09:58:25 [matt__]
ahill2_: I think we should talk about these things now.
09:58:32 [matt__]
rrsagent, draft minutes
09:58:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt__
09:59:04 [matt__]
ahill2_: I think the tone is that AR is going to be visually based. I think people see that as something very different than the kind of AR we have today.
09:59:24 [matt__]
ahill2_: I think the points where these things come together is maybe location and description.
10:00:02 [matt__]
ahill2_: Take the visual sensor example. I'm agnostic about the sensor.
10:00:29 [matt__]
cperey: That whole thing is heavily what the interface that the sensor web folks worked on.
10:00:37 [matt__]
Thomas: That's why I like to call them triggers.
10:00:58 [matt__]
Thomas: I'd argue that the POI has to contain the trigger.
10:01:41 [ahill2]
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10:02:01 [matt__]
matt: I don't understand why trigger has to be a unique part of the structure?
10:02:18 [matt__]
Ronald: I think we said that the trigger is part of the location primitive, maybe not using that word.
10:02:41 [JonathanJ]
I'd like to suggest to make another document, something like "Requirements and Use Case for Linked POIs" by danbri
10:02:45 [matt__]
ahill2: I could do a search around me and get 100 POIs around me, one of them is this cup. Some people want to call this a trigger, some people like me want to just say "I have the means to know I am in front of this cup".
10:03:02 [matt__]
Thomas: The difference I see is the metadata what you use to search with, while the trigger is an automatic thing.
10:03:23 [matt__]
Thomas: For instance the only ones that are in the field of view are triggered.
10:03:29 [matt__]
danbri: It's not up to the objects to determine that.
10:03:38 [cperey] trigger position paper
10:04:42 [matt__]
ahill2: Looking at a web page there's a ton of links. You scroll down and click on any of these things with the mouse. The triggers thing seems to be a way to simplify that, but it's more complicated than that, I could have preferences, etc.
10:05:13 [matt__]
Thomas: I'm thinking it's just more of a passive thing. Something that appears merely by association. A browser may or may not display them. I think there's a clear differentiation between active and passive things.
10:05:13 [cperey] trigger by Thomas
10:05:26 [matt__]
martinL: I think location then is a trigger as well.
10:05:47 [matt__]
matt: Why isn't any data in the POI a trigger?
10:05:52 [matt__]
Ronald: It sounds like search criteria.
10:06:18 [matt__]
Thomas: While you could search to have something appear automatically, it's not automatic. I search and don't get all of those results popping out all at one time.
10:06:27 [JonathanJ]
POIs could be crawlable by search engine ?
10:06:48 [matt__]
Thomas: With AR there's a lot more automatic than the Web. We can't just have users activating everything manually.
10:07:04 [cperey] in the public mailing list
10:07:13 [matt__]
Thomas: I think it's the association of where the content creation believes the data should be put, whether it's image/location/sound based. That's slightly different than what the user wants to see at any given time.
10:07:43 [matt__]
ahill2: Imagine there's a landscape with one item. The author specifies where it is, what it looks like,etc. That's AR, I don't need the word trigger yet to filter that.
10:07:52 [matt__]
ahill2: I need an argument for the word trigger now.
10:08:00 [matt__]
Thomas: I think you need a way to represent the association.
10:08:15 [matt__]
Thomas: A way to associate the data you want and an intended location.
10:08:33 [matt__]
martinL: Alex said filter, I like that, that's essentially what it is.
10:08:38 [matt__]
cperey: no!
10:08:51 [matt__]
ahill2: We're talking about filter at one place, and then this trigger that describes the POI that is there.
10:08:58 [matt__]
bertine: It's trigger like a landmine, not a trigger like a gun.
10:09:17 [matt__]
Thomas: We can call it something else if trigger is confusing.
10:09:22 [matt__]
danbri: I found it confusing on the mailing list.
10:09:30 [matt__]
ahill2: It's a linkage between place and content.
10:09:39 [matt__]
Thomas: I'd say it's part of the linkage.
10:09:47 [matt__]
Thomas: There's two parts: what causes it and what goes to it.
10:09:57 [matt__]
Thomas: The trigger is what causes you to go to it.
10:10:09 [matt__]
danbri: So is it up to the client to recognize the class of thing?
10:10:11 [matt__]
Thomas; Yes.
10:10:20 [matt__]
10:10:59 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:10:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
10:11:01 [matt__]
ahill2: Is this linkage a POI that the spec is to connect data (SVG, HTML, COLLADA models) to a context of the user. That is our charge.
10:11:12 [matt__]
ahill2: Then when you talk about seeing a pen and using a trigger, it makes it confusing.
10:11:23 [matt__]
ahill2: A lot of people think "I see this and something is going to happen" -- that's a somewhat different subject.
10:11:28 [danbri]
'trigger' for me has a strong imperative reading, ... that the 'triggering' is inevitable
10:11:30 [matt__]
Thomas: The POI is a link between real and virtual.
10:11:58 [matt__]
Thomas: I was using trigger or whatever the word is to indicate the category of the sensor that you're correlating to.
10:12:26 [matt__]
ahill2: So, there is a unique item, if I got a description of how to recognize it visually, I could dereference that eventually to the exact location on this table and then it's just like a movie theater, or whatever.
10:12:40 [matt__]
ahill2: So it's the same, but a different matter of how we get there.
10:13:06 [matt_]
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10:13:08 [matt_]
ahill2: Then there's the example of "every pen that looks like this" -- which is a reasonable use case, but to me it's more of a pattern than a trigger to me.
10:13:09 [JonathanJ]
POI trigger is like this ? -
10:14:04 [matt_]
ahill2: Now, say every building from a company sets aside an area for AR, and that's a pattern. Buses could have a sign on the side --
10:14:13 [matt_]
Thomas: How do you find it if the data isn't there in the POI?
10:14:35 [matt_]
ahill2: I know I'm in a store, I look at my coordinates, dereference and I'm done.
10:15:01 [matt_]
Thomas: But that store is static. This is ludicrous, then the bus must relay it's coordinates to a server then the client has to fetch it.
10:15:16 [matt_]
Thomas: I have nothing against publishing moving coordinates.
10:15:30 [matt_]
Thomas: I also think that POIs should be able to specify relative coordinates. I just don't think you can limit it to just the coordinate space.
10:16:09 [matt_]
ahill2: This just isn't unique to the domain of visual recognition. I think we will use visual recognition, I'm just saying that visual triggering can happen the same way by other means
10:16:17 [matt_]
ahill2: I'm more inclined to push it towards a special case in some sense.
10:16:40 [matt_]
Thomas: To me we need both. The most basic visual recognition is QR codes. That's literally just an image that is then decoded to a URL.
10:16:47 [matt_]
ahill2: But that's not a trigger, that's just a linkage.
10:16:56 [cperey_]
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10:17:02 [matt_]
Thomas: We're associating an image with data, that's just as useful as associating coordinates, whether static or moving.
10:17:08 [matt_]
Thomas: The POI needs the capacity for both.
10:17:20 [matt_]
ahill2: We need both, but they're not different enough in my mind that they can't be handled.
10:17:34 [matt_]
Thomas: I'm just saying a field in the POI that has coordinates or an image.
10:17:54 [matt_]
ahill2: This is what Ronald was alluding to, that a location could have a visual description of pen.
10:18:02 [matt_]
Ronald: And it can be a combination of geo and visual too.
10:18:17 [matt_]
cperey: How it's stored is part of the POI, but not what is in there.
10:18:26 [matt_]
Ronald: Sure, the algorithms will change, etc.
10:18:43 [matt_]
cperey: The device which detects those conditions on behalf of a user, whether mobile or stationary, is using sensors.
10:19:03 [Luca_]
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10:20:03 [matt_]
ahill2: Something like identifying a particular pen could have a number of criteria, so how do you author it. My sensor is going to be picking up that pen all over, but it's not necessarily going to be triggered.
10:20:26 [matt_]
Thomas: The system would have the image criteria already in it's memory.
10:21:00 [matt_]
cperey: You're never looking at the real object, you're just encoding those unique features that identify that class of object. Only those features, so you have an extremely fine sample, you're not walking around sending entire photographs of the pen around to be detected.
10:21:16 [matt_]
Ronald: Most of the time you're sending an image from the mobile to a server.
10:21:34 [matt_]
Thomas: There can be client side recognition.
10:21:51 [matt_]
cperey: But the point is the server side would probably just maintain the extracted features for recognition.
10:22:04 [Carsten]
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10:22:11 [matt_]
ahill2: if I want to recognize this computer, I take multiple image that then get distilled down to something recognizable.
10:22:29 [Carsten]
Morning, just wanted to have a quick look at what you guys are doing
10:22:31 [danbri]
q+ for pre-lunch recap. Any actions arising?
10:22:36 [matt_]
martinL: I don't think there's a chance of standardization there as under different conditions have different better algorithims.
10:22:42 [danbri]
(lunch-7.5 mins and counting....)
10:22:49 [matt_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:22:49 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt_
10:23:46 [matt_]
ack next
10:23:47 [Zakim]
danbri, you wanted to discuss pre-lunch recap. Any actions arising?
10:24:10 [matt_]
danbri: Where are we? We've been chatting, but what action items are coming out of this?
10:24:22 [matt_]
cperey: We've been here before, and we've had people with agendas from geo-physical data that they want to solve.
10:24:34 [matt_]
ahill2: And they didn't want this in scope.
10:24:38 [matt_]
matt: That's not what I saw at the last f2f.
10:24:56 [matt_]
cperey: In the next few minutes, the composition of the people in the group has shifted a bit. And it can shift back.
10:25:29 [matt_]
ahill2: This is the part of the meeting where we are addressing AR stuff. We are talking about what are the implications? How does the POI stuff relate to AR?
10:25:41 [matt_]
cperey: This is entirely in scope as the subject of long/lat.
10:25:57 [matt_]
cperey: And the traditional problems of those who own large POI databases?
10:26:14 [matt_]
ahill2: Our existing spec solves that. It allows the POI database folks to add WGS 84 coord and a name/description/ec.
10:26:34 [matt_]
ahill2: Our existing spec also allows for a pen POI with a visual description and an unknown location.
10:27:09 [danbri]
(this is a good time to have people make commitments to do things, and to record those in the issue tracker. I'd be happy to take an action to summarise what I could find out about encoding of URIs in QR Codes, for example)
10:27:12 [matt_]
ahill2: In my mind I've got a search that includes "pen's that belong to Layar" -- I have those POIs, but I may not be displaying them. To me that's not any different than a POI that's on a building over there that's occluded by a building over there.
10:27:43 [matt_]
ahill2: I don't see it as any different than things popping in there.
10:27:57 [matt_]
Thomas: 99% of the time they'll be preloaded, there is a lot of precaching and displaying later.
10:28:25 [matt_]
ahill2: You're interests, your context at the moment, those things all determine context that determine which POIs are in my browser currently.
10:28:58 [matt_]
danbri: If this room has a POI, there's a URI to it.
10:29:05 [matt_]
Thomas: QR code could be the link.
10:29:36 [matt_]
ACTION: danbri to summarize URIs in QR codes to POIWG group
10:29:36 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-41 - Summarize URIs in QR codes to POIWG group [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-04-06].
10:29:51 [matt_]
ahill2: In my mind our spec at the moment could work for a QR code with linkage to some data.
10:30:16 [matt_]
ahill2: I could imagine a QR code being the equivalent of a pen being recognized.
10:30:34 [matt_]
Thomas: There's also the case where the QR code could contain the POI itself, QR codes don't have to be links.
10:30:35 [ahill2]
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10:31:23 [matt_]
ahill2: Practically what is happening? I see a QR code, it's got a URL, I get back a POI. It needs to be linked to something physical, maybe it's a marker to track, or the QR code itself, or four inches from the phone. That's the POI, the QR code is a specific means to encode the URL and there's a separation there.
10:31:50 [matt_]
Thomas: I am seeing a scenario where the QR code decodes to a link which has a POI which then may link to the 3D model.
10:32:06 [matt_]
Thomas: But the QR code could be just the POI itself and go directly to the 3D model.
10:32:29 [JonathanJ]
QR code can encode in other many information bytes.
10:32:34 [matt_]
ahill2: I see that you want to be pragmatic about the links followed etc, but I'm not sure that's what we need to accomodate in our charge.
10:32:43 [matt_]
Thomas: Perhaps not specifically, but it would be nice.
10:33:01 [matt_]
Thomas: We're talking a minimal spec and lots of optionals. Maybe the small thing could be in a QR code.
10:33:39 [matt_]
ahill2: In our lab we worked with markers for ever, and now they're totally out. We recognize full-on images, which doesn't have any data encoded in those images. I could imagine that some day if we did push for QR codes that people would laugh at us in the future.
10:34:01 [matt_]
Thomas: I see advantages to not having the data require a separate lookup.
10:34:11 [matt_]
ahill2: I think no one here wants to create a byzantine set of links.
10:35:40 [matt_]
ahill2: We've had a lot of discussion but no consensus.
10:36:13 [JonathanJ]
we need raise issues
10:36:16 [matt_]
ahill2: I think we can resolve that our POI standard that we've put forward accommodates many different scenarios.
10:36:48 [matt_]
ahill2: Whether it handles triggers, image recognition, etc. I've resolved in my mind that we haven't excluded any of those things. We haven't excluded any representations too, like COLLADA models, or HTML.
10:37:14 [matt_]
ahill2: I think that's valuable, as someone always pipes up on something like this and then we have the discussion again. I don't think we should have to do this conversation again.
10:37:23 [danbri]
do we agree? "...that there are lots of ways of identifying relevant POI descriptions, including GPS, QR Codes, image recognition (of specific things, of types of thing, of places, people, RFIDs. W3C POI data should be easily associated via various such techniques, and not be rigidly tied to any particular association mechanism."
10:38:20 [JonathanJ]
10:38:26 [Ronald]
10:38:44 [matt_]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: There are lots of ways of identifying relevant POI descriptions, including GPS, QR Codes, image recognition (of specific things, of types of thing, of places, people, RFIDs). W3C POI data should be easily associated via various such techniques, and not be rigidly tied to any particular association mechanism.
10:38:55 [Luca]
10:39:05 [cperey]
10:39:17 [JonathanJ]
10:39:21 [matt_]
Thomas: future issue: are the different criterias and-ed or or-ed?
10:39:35 [danbri]
... not hearing any objections; are we resolved?
10:39:46 [matt_]
ahill2: True. I think people handle lots of this sort of thing in code. I think if people want conditions... they write code.
10:40:01 [matt_]
RESOLUTION: There are lots of ways of identifying relevant POI descriptions, including GPS, QR Codes, image recognition (of specific things, of types of thing, of places, people, RFIDs). W3C POI data should be easily associated via various such techniques, and not be rigidly tied to any particular association mechanism.
10:40:19 [matt_]
Thomas: It's a fair point that we don't want to go into the logic too much.
10:40:48 [matt_]
Thomas: If you make a web page you don't have to code the functionality of a link. Metaphorically we're working on the equivalent of that, right?
10:41:00 [matt_]
ahill2: I won't disagree with that. We're trying to provide some structure that keeps people from writing code to present data.
10:41:18 [matt_]
cperey: Is this called a "data format"?
10:41:36 [matt_]
cperey: Because the OMA folks said specifically say they're considering doing an AR data format.
10:41:51 [matt_]
cperey: I think these two words have universal meaning.
10:42:00 [matt__]
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10:42:37 [matt__]
ahill2: I'm concerned about making such a statement that is someone will say "POI is not an AR data format". I'd be inclined to say that our POI data format can be used for AR and we have specifically taken note of it. We haven't created a specific AR data format, but we believe it could be applied to that.
10:42:39 [JonathanJ]
"AR data format" can include anything
10:42:47 [matt__]
ahill2: I'd be hesitant to say it's an "AR data format".
10:42:57 [matt__]
Ronald: There's a reason there's a Core data format.
10:43:18 [matt__]
matt: And part of that is because there are other things that will use the POI format without being AR.
10:43:24 [matt__]
ahill2: AR is the linkage format.
10:43:48 [matt__]
rrsagent, draft minutes
10:43:48 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt__
10:44:51 [danbri]
10:51:42 [danbri]
another use case where the publisher has incentive to be found: Best Buy stores:
11:10:52 [matt_]
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11:11:55 [danbri]
action: danbri identify relevant specs for rotation/orientation included at point of photo/video creation - what is current practice?
11:11:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-42 - Identify relevant specs for rotation/orientation included at point of photo/video creation - what is current practice? [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-04-06].
11:13:52 [Ronald]
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11:14:32 [danbri]
eg scenario: I'm stood in middle of Dam Square, looking (west?) towards the palace, running e.g Layar + a flickr layer. Would it be useful to show only photos that are taken facing that same direction, ie. showing the palace and stuff behind it, ... or also the things behind me (Krasnapolsky hotel...)?
11:15:17 [JonathanJ]
geolocation WG have been making the orientation spec. -
11:16:57 [bertine]
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11:20:20 [matt_]
matt: I see this:
11:20:43 [matt_]
matt: but it appears to be just about the image orientation.
11:20:46 [martinL]
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11:26:31 [matt_]
matt: iPhone appears to capture in EXIF the data: "Exif.GPSInfo.GPSImgDirectionRef", from:
11:29:25 [matt_]
-> EXIF 2.2 spec includes GPSImgDirectionRef and GPSImgDirection
11:31:47 [jacques]
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11:33:23 [danbri]
matt_, thanks I'll read
11:33:34 [danbri]
i made a test image but maybe i have geo turned off
11:33:47 [danbri]
rrsagent, pointer?
11:33:47 [RRSAgent]
11:38:14 [danbri]
matt_, re ... how do we go about getting a filetree for a testcases repo?
11:38:47 [Luca]
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11:38:58 [cperey]
cperey has joined #poiwg
11:39:18 [cperey]
I'll scribe for an hour
11:39:47 [matt__]
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11:40:31 [cperey]
when are we going to finish March 31? at 6 PM
11:40:33 [ahill2]
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11:40:54 [cperey]
Matt: we are moving the AR vocabulary to the end, in order to begin working on POI core spec page
11:41:23 [cperey]
Matt: is there anything in the Landscape since last time we reviewed the AR landscape?
11:41:38 [cperey]
Alex: what are we going to do? don't want to go through item by item
11:41:46 [matt__]
Topic: AR Landscape Document
11:41:51 [matt__]
-> Landscape Document
11:42:43 [cperey]
Alex: we should move on
11:42:51 [cperey]
Matt: get into core drafting
11:42:52 [matt__]
Topic: Core Drafting
11:43:02 [matt__]
-> Agenda again
11:43:07 [cperey]
Matt: questions about the core draft
11:43:22 [cperey]
Matt: we should deal with these up front, some we dealt wth yesterday
11:43:37 [cperey]
Ronald: are we trying to split up the work?
11:43:50 [cperey]
can different people take more focus on specific sections?
11:44:03 [cperey]
Alex: maybe we should take the easier items and get them out of the way
11:44:21 [cperey]
Alex: get the ball rolling with Time and Categorization. It also gives us a process.
11:44:33 [cperey]
Matt: we look at requirements of each primitive
11:44:44 [cperey]
Alex: if we do that as a group, then it's a shorter list
11:45:30 [cperey]
Alex: we have (after Time and Cat) Relationship Primitive-- not something to be done in a smaller group
11:45:37 [cperey]
Alex: then we have location, which is core
11:45:50 [cperey]
Thomas: agree that we need to work together
11:46:11 [cperey]
Thomas: Location is low hanging fruit already
11:46:22 [cperey]
Alex: Time establishes the format of what we are going to write
11:46:30 [matt__]
-> Core Draft
11:46:31 [danbri]
matt__ can/should I bug sysreq for a poiwg repo? for testcases etc (and specs eventually...)
11:46:31 [cperey]
Alex: we might start with something circumspect
11:46:39 [cperey]
Alex: location can get messy
11:47:10 [cperey]
Ronald: agree that location is pretty complex
11:47:25 [cperey]
Alex: begin with time
11:47:37 [matt__]
-> Time primitive
11:47:58 [cperey]
POI must--> can have a time primitive
11:48:11 [cperey]
Alex: could be time when business is opened and closed
11:48:24 [cperey]
Alex: that is relegated to metadata, not the primary function of POI
11:48:37 [cperey]
Alex: time when this POI was created. This falls in provenance
11:49:00 [cperey]
Alex: time that this thing came into existence.
11:49:15 [cperey]
Alex: it's not obvious that every POI needs to come into existence and left
11:50:13 [cperey]
Thomas: if you say that something exists in this range of time, you are saying that we will move the user forward and backward in time
11:50:16 [Luca]
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11:50:31 [cperey]
Google earth (KML) has a tiime stamp and time Span
11:50:35 [matt__]
-> KML Time primitive
11:50:38 [cperey]
Time Stamp says when and a date
11:50:44 [cperey]
Time Span has a beginning and an end
11:50:56 [cperey]
this is used in Google earth, to slide back in time to see content in past
11:51:01 [jacques_]
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11:51:06 [cperey]
ALex: that's about the extent that we need to define
11:51:22 [cperey]
Thomas: suggestion that we have one more, ideally, time stamp of the last time the data was updated.
11:51:36 [cperey]
Thomas: it is useful for the client to know if they need to download it again or not
11:51:39 [cperey]
Expiration date
11:51:48 [cperey]
Thomas: it is a form of time which is userful
11:51:52 [cperey]
MOdification time
11:52:07 [cperey]
Ronald: might be better to put this in the metadata primitive
11:52:12 [matt__]
[[what about recurring time sets? (e.g. open hours) or relative times? (a store has open hours relative to the hours of the mall it is in)]]
11:52:25 [cperey]
Alex: this is where the conversation has gotten baroque
11:52:33 [cperey]
lots of attributes you might want to stamp
11:52:41 [cperey]
Alex: le'ts say some linked data has a date stamp
11:53:09 [cperey]
THomas: technical level it is only necessity to have this type of time stamp in the linked data
11:53:19 [cperey]
Alex: how many links are we limiting a POI to?
11:53:40 [cperey]
Thomas: thinking it was One
11:53:40 [cperey]
THomas: if it is more than one, it could be a time stamp per linked data
11:54:02 [cperey]
Alex: we ask for header, pull out o fheader, say no I don't want the data. Ct short the request, inspect the header
11:54:16 [cperey]
Thomas: COLLADA, X3D don't have those types of headers, may be wrong on that
11:54:31 [cperey]
Alex: is that our scope? to provide mechanism for lInk data to provide an expiration data
11:55:03 [cperey]
Ronald: don't think so. I'm not sure it is valualbe. Adds too much complexity. In Layar we have.... to all the links (do they all need modificaiton time stamp)
11:55:10 [cperey]
in our concept they are all linked to the same POI
11:55:40 [cperey]
Thomas: i don't want clients to constantly update/download big files to see if it has been updated recently or not
11:55:49 [cperey]
Matt: HTML has this distinction
11:55:55 [cperey]
Matt: it gets messy
11:55:58 [fons]
11:56:08 [cperey]
We need a data modification
11:56:24 [fons]
11:56:26 [cperey]
Ronald: in Layar definition, we have a single modificaation time and that it applies to all the data
11:56:51 [cperey]
Alex: concerned that utility might be limited. People might over-ride it. Head did not really capture what we wanted
11:57:18 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
11:57:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
11:57:19 [cperey]
Thomas: adamant that either it is possible to do this without time stamp, if it can't be done, it has to be there
11:57:29 [cperey]
Thomas: if not possible to do in header, it HAS to be in POI
11:57:38 [cperey]
this could cause huge problems down the road.
11:58:04 [cperey]
Alex: that's a good argument for time modification time stamp, time span, time of applicability, could have a beginning and end
11:58:38 [cperey]
Matt: when this is being served over HTTP, these headers.... and any other transport mechanism must similarly
11:58:51 [danbri]
(ok i've requested a poiwg repo for testcases etc to be added at ... time to read the Mercurial manual...)
11:59:39 [cperey]
Alex: if other POI query other links, they want to be able to send a time stamp to you to relect how recently the underlying digital object has been updated
11:59:48 [matt__]
matt: Basically, I think we should say "if you are transporting POIs over HTTP, you should be setting these X,Y, Z headers with the appropriate values. Other transport mechanisms should likewise provide such information."
12:00:10 [cperey]
If I got a POI and it indiciated that something has been changed, then it is my responsibility to go through and check each and to identify which elements have been updated
12:00:41 [cperey]
Alex: save the consumers of this data having to go through the subsegments and check this "manually"
12:00:52 [cperey]
Jacques: this is a basic feature of collaborative AR
12:01:02 [cperey]
Alex: can you please expand or give an example?
12:01:29 [cperey]
Jacques: for exmple, for guidance application, someoene is outside, blind person, and you are looking in VR on a map, and you want to change some audio POI
12:01:42 [cperey]
Jacques: so you need to know when the audio POI can be changed
12:01:55 [cperey]
Alex: there's just me
12:02:20 [cperey]
Jacques: the expert is remote
12:02:25 [cperey]
the person in teh field
12:02:40 [cperey]
Jacqes: you can change the content of a POI
12:03:11 [cperey]
Alex: there's a POI, and we want a way to indicate that the user (remote person changed the POI) that the content has changed
12:03:21 [cperey]
the browser needs to know that the content has changed
12:03:31 [cperey]
Alex: the POI has changed, how does the browser find out about it?
12:03:42 [cperey]
Thomas: this is a pull or push thing. This is web page expiration.
12:03:57 [cperey]
Thomas: if you are using a different protocol, it is not for us to decide which protocol i sused.
12:04:06 [JonathanJ]
I think it seems like POI trigger, or POI pushing
12:04:15 [cperey]
Thomas: any additional downloads are the result, not the ....
12:04:27 [cperey]
the information about the delivery of the POI goes OUTSIDE of the POI itself
12:04:39 [cperey]
It's in the envelope
12:05:03 [cperey]
Thomas: if can is virtual. and the person decides to move it. Change the POI location. It would not change the mesh of the can.
12:05:24 [cperey]
So therefore the client would not be redownloading it, it would download the POI data but not the attached model
12:05:34 [cperey]
Ronald: we are talking aout the modificaiton time
12:05:54 [cperey]
Alex: we have the POI. The model has changed teh same. Location has been updated. Does the POI modification time change?
12:06:11 [cperey]
Alex: the POI is in the local agent. Either I need to poll it or it needs to be pushed to me
12:06:15 [cperey]
12:06:31 [cperey]
Thomas: you don't need to transmit the update time
12:06:49 [cperey]
Thomas: just needs to communicate that the .... has been updated
12:07:22 [cperey]
Alex: look at a POI and knowing when it was updated sounds fine, but...
12:07:40 [cperey]
The header may be a way to do this.
12:07:49 [cperey]
the client may need to check to make sure if it has been updated
12:07:57 [cperey_]
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12:08:02 [cperey]
Alex: isn't that what happens already?
12:08:11 [cperey]
in the web browser?
12:08:31 [cperey]
Thomas: the server gives recommendations about when to refresh
12:08:39 [matt_]
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12:08:44 [cperey]
Martin: there are metatags
12:09:08 [cperey]
Alex: there's a big image, already local (cache) is it not pretty much the case that you have to tell the browser, hey that changed
12:09:22 [cperey]
Alex: the image doesn't have meta, no header, we don't have a mechanism for that
12:09:33 [cperey]
Alex: that's a problem, but it is not clear that it is our problme (yet)
12:09:43 [ahill2]
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12:09:50 [martinL]
+1 for alex
12:09:58 [cperey]
Thomas: if it can't be done in the header, there's not another solution than to have it in the POI recommendation
12:10:10 [cperey]
Alex: reluctant to shoe horn this into the POI spec
12:10:22 [cperey]
Ronald: do we really want to have changeable mesh models
12:10:45 [cperey]
Thomas: most of these things will be fairly static. Meshes will probably be the same
12:11:10 [cperey]
Thomas: update time stamp is a simple solution
12:11:34 [cperey]
Alex: the problem is that it is a Macro, it is global to th POI, but not specific to what part of it changed, so it doesn't really solve the problem
12:11:43 [cperey]
Thomas; you need one orientation per link
12:11:51 [cperey]
Alex: no, I argue that you don't need that
12:12:20 [cperey]
Alex: if there are multiple link, and oriented differently, but the base the frame of reference from which they are, that's what a single orientation accomplishes
12:12:32 [cperey]
Alex: it sets down a frame of reference. It's not the billboarding
12:12:51 [cperey]
Alex: it is that a single point in space... arbirtarily given is not adequate
12:12:54 [Luca]
etag or any metatagit's better to understand i something has changed insted of timestamp that can't be unique for all the client
12:13:22 [cperey]
Alex: a discussion about time for POI, needs to be very specific. What is it about POI that need time?
12:13:28 [cperey]
Alex: what is inherent to POI?
12:13:45 [Luca]
12:13:54 [cperey]
ALex: a time that this POI applies, whatever that means, that time period is really the need for the POI
12:14:07 [cperey]
In agreement that we should at least have that one
12:15:08 [cperey]
Alex: this is where have to decide what we do now. Do we hunt around for time specs?
12:15:21 [cperey]
Thomas: time span.... what time zone is it specified in?
12:15:31 [matt_]
-> XML Schema 2 time section
12:15:35 [cperey]
Thomas: do we need to explicitly tell the client the explicity time frame
12:16:02 [matt_]
-> KML time primitive
12:16:18 [cperey]
Alex: KML uses time stamp, they use datatypes Second edition
12:16:23 [cperey]
ALex W3C. org
12:16:30 [ahill2]
12:16:48 [cperey]
ISO 8601 convention
12:17:07 [cperey]
Alex: this time stamp assumes UTC. If it is not, you can add + or - something
12:17:12 [cperey]
that's a reasonable place to go
12:17:23 [cperey]
Alex: do they have/ does this spec have a beginning and end
12:17:46 [cperey]
Alex: KML has that, is that a wrapper.
12:17:58 [cperey]
Matt: looking at XML schema spec
12:18:15 [cperey]
they have lower level primitive
12:18:21 [cperey]
Matt: no recurrence
12:18:39 [cperey]
Thomas: suggestion would be that if year is not included it repeats annually
12:18:59 [cperey]
Thomas: what about something that repeats weekly? where do you draw the line
12:19:17 [cperey]
ALex: Other people who have sat around tables, have addressed frequency.
12:19:22 [Luca]
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12:19:41 [danbri]
matt_, could you do a quick followup to my sysreq mail saying "agreed - with staff contact hat on" or similar? in case it bounces due to need for officialrequestness
12:19:51 [cperey]
Thomas: what do you mean the time span to mean in terms of repetition
12:20:13 [cperey]
Thomas: we are illeminating the possibility of any recurrence?
12:20:26 [cperey]
Alex: no, I don't have a problem with idea of recurrence, but we don't need a time stamp
12:20:44 [cperey]
Thomas: do not specify a year or a day.
12:20:54 [cperey]
Alex: but I don't know it includes something like Friday
12:21:07 [cperey]
ROnald if you goes to GDAY. It is a Gregorian day that recurrs
12:21:37 [cperey]
Dan: really wished that we have the use cases
12:22:07 [cperey]
Dan: the use cases is approach that if a user wants
12:22:15 [cperey]
Dan: can we get 5 POI in english
12:22:20 [matt_]
scribe: matt_
12:22:24 [matt_]
danbri: Let's get some use cases
12:23:28 [matt_]
Thomas: 1. A hot dog stand that is occasionally there, but also has open/closed hours.
12:23:51 [matt_]
danbri: What else might you want to know? Health inspections? Kosher?
12:23:57 [matt_]
ahill2: Yes, sure, let's throw it into our examples.
12:24:08 [matt_]
Thomas: 2. A historical church that used to exist and is now destroyed.
12:24:57 [matt_]
ahill2: 3. A congregation that was at a church for a period of time. The physical building may have it's own POI, but the type of church might only be there for a period of time.
12:25:18 [matt_]
danbri: Maybe people are exploring their roots.
12:25:25 [danbri]
rrsagent, pointer?
12:25:25 [RRSAgent]
12:25:33 [matt_]
cperey: Maybe a timestamp around when a member of the congregation can be trusted or not.
12:25:43 [matt_]
Thomas: This might be linked data from the POI to the person, rather than inline.
12:25:47 [matt_]
ahill2: Agree on that.
12:26:10 [matt_]
ahill2: Is a person a POI? It's really hard for me to make a good argument that people are not points of interest.
12:26:31 [matt_]
Ronald: If that cup of coffee is a POI and I'm not, I'll be offended!
12:26:35 [matt_]
[[general agreement]]
12:27:11 [matt_]
cperey: The congregant, the congregation and the space in which they all may be are all distinct.
12:27:42 [matt_]
ahill2: In the last f2f the major concern about these things were that if we do this we'll have to describes everything and anything.
12:29:19 [matt_]
martinL: 4. Football stadium that is open on Mondays and sometimes Wednesdays.
12:29:31 [matt_]
Thomas: I think at some level of complexity it becomes a manual process.
12:29:33 [danbri]
for recurring events, see
12:29:57 [matt_]
martinL: I wouldn't say we want to get too complex, but we then need to have multiple time elements.
12:30:06 [matt_]
Ronald: If we can multiple POI times then we're there.
12:30:37 [matt_]
cperey: What about a church that adds wings?
12:30:43 [matt_]
Thomas: I'd argue that's a different POI.
12:30:54 [matt_]
martinL: I think it should be one of the examples, you might have one POI with a time slider.
12:31:47 [matt_]
ahill2: If I am driving down the street, I see the church, not the sub POIs, the altar, toilet, etc. I'm interested in the church, now and I'm sliding through time and these things become obvious and apparent.
12:32:13 [danbri]
ronald, re calendar/rdf stuff also
12:32:25 [danbri]
...and microformat markup for events
12:32:30 [matt_]
Thomas: The specs for times seem pretty good.
12:32:35 [matt_]
ahill2: We don't have the spec for it yet from us.
12:33:54 [matt_]
Ronald: If we're talking about existence then a single time span is sufficient. The other use cases where it's opening hours and things that change, then that's different.
12:34:00 [matt_]
cperey: Should it be in the spec?
12:34:41 [matt_]
ahill2: In practical use for these things a time span is something you can include then if you don't include it it's right now and permanent.
12:34:57 [matt_]
ahill2: If you have one time span, then you could imagine that being a situation where you could see two of them.
12:35:13 [matt_]
ahill2: If two time spans get delivered with a POI, there's just two time spans, what would it break? There's not a parent/child relationship.
12:35:21 [matt_]
Thomas: So you'd treat them as an or relationship?
12:35:52 [matt_]
ahill2: Talk of "will that hot dog stand be there?" is really about future things and not real time.
12:36:10 [matt_]
Thomas: Do we have a proposed format.
12:36:25 [matt_]
12:36:33 [matt_]
ahill2: I think we can look at what's here and figure it out.
12:36:41 [matt_]
cperey: And then apply it to the use cases.
12:37:07 [matt_]
ahill2: We're going to have a POI time, we've got a fundamental unit of time. It doesn't describe a duration.
12:37:18 [matt_]
ahill2: I think it just says a duration of two hours, rather than a start/end time.
12:37:34 [matt__]
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12:37:50 [matt__]
ahill2: I think if the spec we looked at had a begin/end time then KML would have used it.
12:38:27 [danbri]
re times, for content
12:38:36 [ahill2]
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12:39:05 [matt__]
[[caldav seems to have a time-range defined]]
12:39:43 [matt__]
cperey: We had a discussion about location changing over time. We talked about having locations good for specific durations.
12:39:55 [matt__]
cperey: The side of the bus is only valid while it's moving through this geo location.
12:40:03 [matt__]
martinL: That would be a property animation?
12:40:12 [matt__]
Thomas: We talked about having an ad appear at this location.
12:40:49 [matt__]
-> W3C Schools (no relation) sample elements for a date range.
12:40:59 [JonathanJ]
1. present condition (periodical) 2. historical condition (duration), 3. acting condition (irregularity)
12:41:17 [matt__]
Ronald: I remember this discussion and don't remember the outcome. Do we store the entire history, or not?
12:41:27 [matt__]
ahill2: I think we can say we don't store the history in the POI.
12:41:52 [matt__]
ahill2: KML breaks some of these apart too. Not necessarily embedded.
12:42:16 [matt__]
Thomas: Merely having a date span then you have the possibility of history through multiple POIs. Assign them to different dates with same location.
12:42:46 [matt__]
ahill2: You can use a POI to do that, or not. Or you could have metadata to do it in one POI. You don't have to use it either way.
12:42:52 [Zakim]
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12:43:06 [matt__]
Thomas: Then you have to be very precise in the metadata itself. It becomes not metadata but data.
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12:43:26 [matt__]
Thomas: The metadata should be describing the content, not the content.
12:43:26 [danbri] "The distinction between "data" and "metadata" is not an absolute one; it is a distinction created primarily by a particular application, and many times the same resource will be interpreted in both ways simultaneously."
12:43:36 [matt__]
Thomas: A building that has different shapes at different dates and times.
12:43:50 [matt__]
ahill2: This strikes me as different representations.
12:43:56 [matt__]
Thomas: Not really.
12:44:40 [danbri]
12:44:41 [danbri]
12:44:42 [matt__]
ahill2: The London Bridge is now in Arizona.
12:45:03 [matt__]
ahill2: If I remodel my house, it's still my house. Some people are not going to like the idea that it's a different POI.
12:45:23 [matt__]
ahill2: If POIs have URIs, then people are going to want to have a stable URI to describe the building.
12:45:31 [matt__]
ahill2: Your proposed solution does not solve everything.
12:45:50 [matt__]
Thomas: Yours would have multiple time stamps that seems more complex than new POIs.
12:46:37 [matt__]
matt: I think there are use cases for both. If you want a historical slider, you include multiple time stamps, and if you want a canonical representation of the house now, then you don't put in multiple timestamps.
12:47:03 [matt__]
ahill2: Thomas you're also assuming that the model has to be tied to the POI. There could be a separation, could be from a different database, different metadata.
12:47:07 [matt__]
Thomas: They'd be different POIs then.
12:47:12 [matt__]
ahill2: I think this is semantics.
12:47:29 [matt__]
danbri: What are we talking about?
12:48:02 [matt__]
ahill2: There are two constituencies, one that wants historical and one that wants permanence.
12:48:04 [Luca]
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12:48:27 [matt__]
Thomas: If you don't want the history then you could have it be on POI, but if you want history then you want multiple POIs.
12:48:34 [danbri]
matt__, good question
12:48:36 [matt__]
ahill2: There was some convention for mutation of points.
12:49:04 [matt__]
martinL: Essentially we're talking about the visualization changes over time.
12:49:12 [matt__]
martinL: We have the data and the visualizations are different.
12:49:35 [matt__]
Thomas: No. I see this as the same as CSS and HTML. DIfferent things sent to different clients based on specs or whatever criteria.
12:49:48 [matt__]
Thomas: If you've got data associated with it, that too is a piece of data.
12:50:22 [matt__]
Thomas: My instinct is different POIs with different time spans.
12:50:41 [matt__]
ahill2: The spec will let both work.
12:50:57 [matt__]
Thomas: Then you have to be prepared to spec out multiple timespans. Is that ok?
12:50:58 [matt__]
ahill2: Yes.
12:51:07 [matt__]
Ronald: Didn't we agree that the history is outside of the spec?
12:51:17 [matt__]
ahill2: Yes, but we're using different history means here.
12:52:59 [matt__]
matt: We've been talking about these primitives as a building block that can be used in different ways.
12:53:19 [matt__]
ahill2: So we've been saying that the POI might have a time and the location may have a time.
12:53:23 [matt__]
ahill2: It's a bit of a can of worms.
12:54:19 [matt__]
-> GML begin/end
12:54:42 [ahill2]
12:55:14 [jacques]
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12:57:59 [matt__]
ahill2: If in the end we get something that's very close to GML, I think that's OK.
12:58:47 [matt__]
ahill2: This could be very similar to what we did with KHARML and KML. We had things we needed to add.
12:58:56 [matt__]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: The world is complicated.
12:59:05 [JonathanJ]
12:59:09 [matt__]
13:00:03 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:00:04 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
13:00:20 [danbri]
oh, 'Profiling GML for RSS/Atom, RDF and Web developers' finally relevant ;)
13:06:28 [matt_]
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13:07:30 [ahill2_]
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13:32:36 [matt_]
-> GML subset tools
13:35:22 [matt__]
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13:35:59 [matt__]
scribe: Ronald
13:36:23 [ahill2]
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13:37:21 [matt_]
rrsagent, make minutes
13:37:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt_
13:37:25 [danbri]
discussing ... GML subset tool
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13:37:47 [Ronald]
ahill: we need to move on, but we also need to capture our discussion
13:38:06 [Ronald]
ahill: are the notes ok, or do we need to write the document
13:38:42 [Ronald]
martin: we might be able to make focus groups to write it out
13:39:23 [Ronald]
matt: we might not have to do it today, but I like the fact of teaming up people
13:39:32 [Ronald]
martin: I volunteer for the timespan
13:39:43 [Ronald]
thomas: I can help
13:40:06 [matt_]
ACTION: martinL to work on time spans with Thomas
13:40:06 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - martinL
13:40:11 [matt_]
ACTION: martin to work on time spans with Thomas
13:40:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-43 - Work on time spans with Thomas [on Martin Lechner - due 2011-04-06].
13:40:24 [Ronald]
ahill: I remember that someone said openstreetmap has a time definition as well
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13:40:47 [Ronald]
jacques: for opening hours for shopping centers, not XML, but in text
13:41:07 [Ronald]
jacques: it is very easy and compact
13:41:20 [JonathanJ]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:41:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate JonathanJ
13:41:56 [Ronald]
luca: we should prepare some use case to define the timestamp to check whether each language is good or not
13:42:31 [Ronald]
luca: for example, for movie show times, we need to decide what is in scope or out of scope
13:42:55 [Ronald]
ahill: talking to dan and we were looking into creating some examples in mercurial
13:43:23 [matt_]
ACTION: Alex to place some examples in mercurial
13:43:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-44 - Place some examples in mercurial [on Alex Hill - due 2011-04-06].
13:43:29 [Ronald]
luca: my question was because the discussion was very wide regarding the POI we can describe, but we should start with something easy to get started
13:43:44 [Ronald]
luca: and maybe in the second draft add other use cases
13:44:24 [danbri]
we have to start simple for starters, maybe with a bias towards re-using nearby related specs (like icalendar)
13:44:47 [Ronald]
luca: this can be applied to any primitive. Just to move forward and make decisions
13:45:20 [Ronald]
matt: thinking of creating an issue for time and spans
13:45:23 [matt_]
-> POI tracker
13:46:03 [Ronald]
ronald: but are all the primitives issues?
13:46:04 [Luca]
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13:46:11 [Ronald]
matt: yes, we should be closing them one by one
13:46:44 [Luca]
13:47:25 [matt_]
-> some notes on time primitive
13:47:30 [Ronald]
matt: where do we want to gather requirements for the time primitive?
13:47:51 [danbri]
(re terminology: icalendar is the ietf data format spec; caldev is a web-dav based protocol for managing a calendar, ... and 'ical' used to be a nickname for it, until Apple named their icalendar-compatible app 'ical' too)
13:48:11 [JonathanJ]
icalendar spec -
13:48:38 [jacques]
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13:48:45 [Ronald]
thomas: we also need to pick a name for the field. 'time' or 'timerange'
13:49:20 [Ronald]
ahill: if anyone else already has a spec for time, what do we do with it. Reuse it directly, or renaming things and embed it in our spec?
13:49:51 [Ronald]
thomas: we can include it. I don't think it is copyrighted
13:50:12 [Ronald]
ahill: but things are namespaces. Are we ok to combining different kinds of namespaces?
13:50:22 [matt_]
trackbot, close action-3232
13:50:22 [trackbot]
Sorry... closing ACTION-3232 failed, please let sysreq know about it
13:50:25 [matt_]
trackbot, close action-32
13:50:25 [trackbot]
ACTION-32 Invite Henning after Matt has put ID requirements in the wiki closed
13:50:31 [Ronald]
bertine: we need to be careful there is not any slight difference in meaning
13:50:46 [Ronald]
thomas: we should not make something different, just to make something different
13:51:18 [Ronald]
ahill: GML, KML refer to ISO for timestamps, but it is a more fundamental concept
13:51:48 [Ronald]
ahill: in KML, there is a time primitive, which is an abstract class of which timestamp and timespan extend
13:52:20 [matt_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
13:52:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt_
13:52:21 [Ronald]
thomas: does their timespan combine two time primitives?
13:52:35 [Ronald]
ahill: in their context not really
13:53:09 [Ronald]
martin: what would be the desired outcome of a focus group
13:53:21 [Ronald]
matt: for editorial stuff, I am going to be a gatekeeper
13:53:35 [Ronald]
matt: we will propose text on the mailing list, and I will put it in the wiki
13:54:29 [Ronald]
matt: please include the text ISSUE-7 in the subject or body of the message for tracking
13:54:42 [Ronald]
martin: ISSUE-7 or ACTION-43
13:55:03 [Ronald]
matt: there are multiple actions to an issue, so discussion on the issue without closing an action
13:55:14 [Ronald]
thomas: are we ready to move to the next item
13:55:20 [Ronald]
alex: let's talk about categories
13:55:25 [matt_]
-> Category Primitive
13:55:31 [matt_]
Topic: Category Primitive
13:55:35 [Ronald]
christine: we talked about categories before, and the general thinking was
13:56:02 [Ronald]
cperey: IETF and ? have done a lot of work on documenting not just places of interest
13:56:12 [Ronald]
cperey: they have their own structure for categories
13:56:35 [Ronald]
cperey: governments and international bodies have their own category systems, hierarchical systems, beautiful systems
13:56:41 [ahill2]
13:56:52 [Ronald]
cperey: it is unlikely that we as an organization pick one system
13:57:03 [Ronald]
cperey: we are insufficient domain experts
13:57:32 [Ronald]
cperey: there are experts out there, but not at our table. Henning has not replied and does not seem interested
13:57:42 [Ronald]
thomas: is category going to be a required field
13:57:47 [Ronald]
ahill: no
13:57:59 [Ronald]
ahill: it is not required, but in most cases it is valueable
13:58:08 [matt_]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Category primitive is NOT required
13:58:28 [Ronald]
ahill: I can imagine a character string "category", but it is not going to solve the problem. For example we might need to support multiple categories
13:58:46 [Ronald]
ahill: we might need to make our own category, and people can choose to ignore
13:58:59 [Ronald]
cperey: but it is better to reuse existing category systems
13:59:07 [Ronald]
thomas: it could just be a link
13:59:10 [Ronald]
cperey: exactly
13:59:33 [Ronald]
thomas: a POI needs to be able to have multiple categories and these categories should be URIs
14:00:06 [matt_]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Category primitive is NOT required. Category can be identified by a URI. POIs can have more than one category.
14:00:30 [Ronald]
cperey: if we just specify it this way, we don't need to invite an expert to come talk to us... it is an implementation detail
14:00:53 [Ronald]
ahill: at some stage we need to work out the meaning
14:01:13 [matt_]
-> Good Relations categories
14:01:17 [Ronald]
thomas: there are also simple formatting issues, e.g. comma seperated list or multiple entries
14:01:45 [Ronald]
ahill: how about an action item of finding an example of a system using different category systems
14:02:13 [danbri]
14:02:32 [matt_]
zakim, ping me in 5 minutes to close out my proposed resolution
14:02:32 [Zakim]
ok, matt_
14:03:52 [Ronald]
thomas: we should just focus on allowing linking, and not go into the meaning. that is up to the systems
14:03:52 [danbri]
hot dog stand:
14:04:04 [Ronald]
matt: can you walk me through the bestbuy example
14:04:16 [matt__]
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14:04:20 [matt__]
[[<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML+RDFa 1.0//EN" ""><html xmlns=""
14:04:21 [Ronald]
danbri: it is a particular store, if you view source and search for "property="
14:04:23 [matt__]
14:04:25 [matt__]
14:04:27 [matt__]
14:04:29 [matt__]
14:04:32 [matt__]
14:04:33 [matt__]
14:04:35 [matt__]
14:04:37 [Ronald]
danbri: you find lat lon, twitter account
14:04:37 [matt__]
xmlns:r=""><head profile=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" /]]
14:04:47 [Ronald]
danbri: they also have it on products they sell
14:04:57 [Ronald]
ahill: should we go to a product page
14:05:18 [ahill2_]
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14:05:21 [Ronald]
danbri: would not bother now, but we can expect that data to be on the web and there should be links from the POI information
14:05:30 [matt__]
[[<div class="column right"><div class="hours" rel="gr:hasOpeningHoursSpecification"><h3>Store Hours</h3><ul><li class="day0" typeof="gr:OpeningHoursSpecification" about="#storehours_sun"> <span rel="gr:hasOpeningHoursDayOfWeek" resource="" class="day">Sun</span>]]
14:05:31 [Ronald]
ahill: I want to look at an implementation that uses categories
14:05:46 [Ronald]
matt: I see they are using opening hours from the good relations
14:05:59 [Ronald]
thomas: but we are not looking at opening hours yet from the time primitive
14:06:07 [ahill2_]
14:06:37 [Ronald]
ahill: when I went here, the website shows a category, but in the source I can't see any link to categories
14:07:26 [Ronald]
ahill: I need an example. I have the feeling we need a dictionary or a schema to define what the category is and where it is in the category hierarchy
14:07:31 [matt__]
[[I suggest we install the RDFa bookmarklet and use that instead of view source: ]]
14:07:32 [Zakim]
matt_, you asked to be pinged at this time to close out my proposed resolution
14:07:58 [Ronald]
danbri: library classification schemes don't work that well as category scheme
14:08:14 [Ronald]
danbri: it is not really a thing in a category. it is a bit fuzzy
14:08:22 [matt__]
zakim, ping me in 5 minutes to close out my proposed resolution
14:08:22 [Zakim]
ok, matt__
14:08:42 [Ronald]
danbri: it is thesaurus type stuff
14:08:54 [Ronald]
danbri: scos
14:09:07 [danbri]
14:09:10 [matt__]
-> Best Buy example
14:09:36 [Ronald]
danbri: if the POI is art related, the category will be using scos
14:09:39 [cperey]
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14:09:45 [fons]
14:09:51 [JonathanJ]
14:09:55 [danbri]
14:10:23 [Ronald]
danbri: if it is representing things, rdf uses different mechanics
14:10:42 [danbri]
14:10:51 [danbri]
14:11:49 [bertine]
14:13:22 [Zakim]
matt__, you asked to be pinged at this time to close out my proposed resolution
14:13:35 [matt__]
zakim, ping me in 10 minutes to close out my proposed resolution
14:13:35 [Zakim]
ok, matt__
14:13:59 [matt__]
scribe: matt__
14:14:06 [matt__]
danbri: The resource itself is:
14:14:15 [matt__]
danbri: But the page is
14:14:19 [matt__]
scribe: Ronald
14:14:25 [Ronald]
danbri: yaga is a organization on top of wikipedia
14:14:47 [Luca_]
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14:15:25 [Ronald]
danbri: is explaining dbpedia
14:18:47 [Ronald]
thomas: is a broader term a parent type?
14:18:57 [Ronald]
danbri: it is not really hierarchical
14:20:50 [Ronald]
cperey: librarians have their own standardisation systems
14:21:05 [matt__]
14:21:27 [danbri]
14:21:30 [danbri]
14:22:03 [danbri]
a smooth-textured sausage of minced beef or pork usually smoked; often served on a bread roll ('en' language string)
14:22:55 [matt__]
-> Linked Data Cloud diagram
14:23:35 [Zakim]
matt__, you asked to be pinged at this time to close out my proposed resolution
14:23:44 [matt__]
zakim, ping me in 15 minutes to close out my proposed resolution
14:23:44 [Zakim]
ok, matt__
14:24:30 [danbri]
14:24:59 [Ronald]
danbri: most of the data sets are sturctured similarly
14:25:00 [danbri]
14:25:07 [Ronald]
danbri: we don't need to choose
14:25:11 [danbri]
14:25:20 [danbri]
14:25:32 [cperey]
NFAIS Standards
14:25:33 [cperey]
14:25:49 [Ronald]
thomas: can I ask yahoo for green fruit. the linked data is not really used fully yet
14:26:11 [danbri]
14:26:16 [matt__]
14:26:28 [Ronald]
ahill: until I feel that google is doing something other than proprietary mapping, I did not think the web is linked
14:26:36 [Ronald]
matt: we are talking about categorization, right?
14:27:08 [matt__]
-> categorization primitive
14:27:17 [Ronald]
thomas: there is potentially infinite categories, so using URIs seems a reasonable solution
14:27:21 [matt__]
-> Thread on cat primitive
14:27:35 [danbri]
(you can probly use to define a query for green fruit)
14:28:48 [Ronald]
thomas: do we need to create an action point to decide what form to use.
14:29:18 [Ronald]
ahill: if someone else has figured out time, and someone else categories... do we add a wrapper around it or recommend to use these specs
14:29:39 [Ronald]
ahill: do we need a wrapper that says this is a POI
14:29:42 [matt__]
-> Karl's document on categories
14:29:51 [Ronald]
ahill: is it some sort of key-value pair?
14:30:15 [Ronald]
thomas: there needs to be an identifying string saying this is a POI
14:30:35 [Ronald]
thomas: it may be the nature of the transmission that assumes it is a POI, but it depends on how it is used
14:30:59 [Ronald]
thomas: if an AR browser gets information from a server, it can assume it is a POI, but if it is on the web, we need to know it is a POI
14:31:18 [matt__]
[[This category description does not replace existing industry classification models, rather it enables reference to such standards and local domain derivations from such standards as:...]] -- Karl's document
14:31:20 [danbri]
proposal: "The WG agrees that POI descriptions will be more useful when they include categorisation information. This could include classes of entity (eg. products, brands), as well as broader topics (eg. Medieval). Defining particular schemas in detail is beyond the range of the group, but we anticipate that URIs will be used to identify these classes and/or categories. There may be scope for publishing a small high-level taxonomy that integra
14:31:20 [danbri]
tes existing deployed practice, as well as describing how to use Linked Data (skos, dbpedia etc.) for such tasks.
14:31:56 [Ronald]
ahill: if all we end up with is a bunch of existing standards, do we need to invent something around it
14:32:11 [Ronald]
thomas: do we need a version of it, or is it implicit?
14:32:20 [JonathanJ]
14:33:09 [matt_]
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14:33:21 [Ronald]
thomas: do we include the fact that a POI can have more than one category?
14:33:30 [Ronald]
danbri: I see that as something implicit
14:33:36 [jacques]
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14:33:45 [Ronald]
cperey: does this mean that we do not need a core primitive?
14:33:50 [matt_]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: POI descriptions will be more useful when they include categorisation information. This could include classes of entity (eg. products, brands), as well as broader topics (eg. Medieval). Defining particular schemas in detail is beyond the range of the group, but we anticipate that URIs will be used to identify these classes and/or categories. There may be scope for publishing a small high-level taxonomy that integrates existing deployed practic
14:33:50 [matt_]
well as describing how to use Linked Data (skos, dbpedia etc.) for such tasks.
14:33:55 [matt_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:33:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt_
14:34:13 [ahill2]
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14:34:20 [Ronald]
ahill: we may not need to have a structure
14:34:31 [Ronald]
cperey: how do we decide it is expressed like that?
14:34:35 [Ronald]
ahill: by convention
14:34:46 [Ronald]
cperey: is there an action to decide what the convention is?
14:34:49 [danbri]
I could write <dbpedia:HotDogStand name="Dan's Eateria" lat="123" long="456"/> ...
14:34:52 [matt_]
RESOLUTION: POI descriptions will be more useful when they include categorisation information. This could include classes of entity (eg. products, brands), as well as broader topics (eg. Medieval). Defining particular schemas in detail is beyond the range of the group, but we anticipate that URIs will be used to identify these classes and/or categories. There may be scope for publishing a small high-level taxonomy that integrates existing deployed practice, as wel
14:34:53 [matt_]
describing how to use Linked Data (skos, dbpedia etc.) for such tasks.
14:35:06 [matt_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:35:06 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt_
14:35:48 [Ronald]
matt: let's go back to an earlier resolution that I wrote a while ago
14:36:12 [matt_]
RESOLUTION: Category primitive is not required.
14:36:17 [Ronald]
danbri: if a POI is a category, it is a boring category. so category is optional
14:36:34 [jacques]
amenitie=stand cuisine=hotdog in OSM
14:36:35 [matt_]
-> Karl's doc
14:37:41 [Ronald]
matt: let's look at the examples
14:38:12 [Ronald]
matt: using URIs makes it easy to refer to categories from dbpedia
14:38:33 [cperey_]
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14:38:38 [Ronald]
cperey: the proposal says one or more, but we just backed of and said none required
14:38:44 [Zakim]
matt__, you asked to be pinged at this time to close out my proposed resolution
14:38:46 [Ronald]
cperey: we could have one... a useless one
14:38:56 [Ronald]
danbri: that would be just "POI"
14:39:06 [Ronald]
cperey: not sure what is the right way of treating it
14:39:55 [Ronald]
martin: if you don't want to specify, you should be able to leave it out
14:40:02 [Ronald]
matt: I am kind of happy with 0
14:40:27 [Ronald]
ahill: some people might think that if it does not have category, it will never be shown
14:40:45 [Ronald]
ahill: but for us, it is not a big deal
14:43:13 [matt_]
scribe: Matt
14:43:15 [Ronald]
thomas: it feels like the alt tag in HTML. If it is mandatory, you will get bad stuff
14:43:23 [matt_]
bertine: Then you get into things like web site optimization.
14:43:28 [matt_]
cperey: Then it's a best practice, not a spec
14:43:42 [matt_]
bertine: If I want to put my POI somewhere and don't want NavTEQ to index it, fine.
14:43:51 [Luca]
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14:43:55 [matt_]
ahill2: And your browser won't choke on it. I think it's impractical for us to require anything.
14:44:26 [danbri]
-the whole point of POIs is to provide information about places and locate-able things, ... if people want to mention locations but not say much useful ... we can't *stop* them ... but it's kind of dumb-
14:44:57 [matt_]
matt: I want some action items from this discussion.
14:45:09 [matt_]
cperey: I think responding to that thread is a good start.
14:45:15 [matt_]
ahill2: I think the response will be relatively short.
14:46:20 [matt_]
PROPOSED ACTION: danbri to summarize to mailing list the discussion had at the 2nd F2F about classes, categories, etc.
14:46:21 [danbri]
action: dan summarise the linked data / RDF approach to classes (RDF) and topics (SKOS), and their use via URIs
14:46:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-45 - Summarise the linked data / RDF approach to classes (RDF) and topics (SKOS), and their use via URIs [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-04-06].
14:46:31 [matt_]
Thomas: differences between class URIs and topic URIs?
14:46:55 [matt_]
ahill2: Is there an argument for restricting it? I can't think of one off the top of my head.
14:47:06 [matt_]
danbri: I think the stuff we'll want to filter and query on is a bit of that data that's in the format.
14:47:29 [matt_]
Thomas: Do we want to explicitly state that it could either be a topic or a class as part of the category?
14:47:36 [matt_]
ahill2: But you can have mulitples. A class and a topic.
14:47:48 [matt_]
Thomas: Do we want to define how they are expressed? As separate elements or what?
14:47:55 [danbri]
dublin core used to say "they're all optional and repeatable"
14:48:02 [jacques]
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14:49:04 [matt_]
ACTION: Alex to report back to WG how in practice the expression of multiple categories and/or topics is accompished
14:49:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-46 - Report back to WG how in practice the expression of multiple categories and/or topics is accompished [on Alex Hill - due 2011-04-06].
14:49:13 [matt_]
14:49:40 [matt_]
14:49:46 [trackbot]
ACTION-46 -- Alex Hill to report back to WG how in practice the expression of multiple categories and/or topics is accompished -- due 2011-04-06 -- OPEN
14:49:49 [trackbot]
14:52:51 [danbri]
from a friend - draft of SIC codes in RDF format:
14:55:18 [matt_]
matt: are we cool with this requirements/possible requirements/details/notes format?
14:55:21 [matt_]
ahill2: sure
14:55:28 [matt_]
[[rehashing discussion of location]]
14:55:39 [matt_]
14:55:45 [danbri]
rrsagent, pointer?
14:55:45 [RRSAgent]
14:56:21 [matt_]
martinL: I suggest we break up location via geospatial from other means of location
14:56:52 [matt_]
cperey: I believe his proposal is to ask if there's a benefit to drawing a distinction between geospatially fixed locations and others.
14:56:59 [matt_]
Ronald: I think it will help clarify the specification.
14:57:10 [matt_]
Ronald: The "location primitive can be there but it can be anything" is kind of hard to understand.
14:57:34 [matt_]
ahill2: We had discussion of expiration times and timestamps, etc. Isn't there some sort of implication that when people just get coordinates it's not changing?
14:57:39 [matt_]
Thomas: No, they can be relative coordinates.
14:58:31 [matt_]
Ronald: I agree on the dynamic vs fixed location. If it's lat/lng relative to earth that's one thing then there's non geo relative things.
14:58:43 [matt_]
martinL: A split between the fixed and the visual AR. Say it is separate.
14:59:02 [matt_]
martinL: You get the geo POI, it has a location, it can change, it has a location that people understand.
14:59:12 [matt_]
martinL: Detecting that a pen isn't really a location per se.
14:59:50 [matt_]
ahill2: The way we've been discussing it so far is that the description of how to find it is "location", which could be relative to WGS84 or some other set of location attributes.
15:00:18 [matt_]
cperey: Fixed and dynamic works pretty well.
15:00:27 [matt_]
Ronald: Both geospatial and not are fixed and dynamic.
15:00:38 [matt_]
Ronald: You can have a fixed building that can also be recognized by image.
15:00:59 [matt_]
Ronald: Could be two buildings that look the same and they are different POIs because of location.
15:01:18 [matt_]
bertine: What's the benefit of specifying fixed AND non-fixed locations?
15:02:03 [matt__]
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15:02:08 [matt__]
ahill2: If I have an image based way of recognizing a building, say I have coordinates, then my label appears over the building. But a visual recognition might be more accurate. Both inputs are helping us place the content, but are not necessarily separate POIs
15:02:39 [matt__]
Ronald: We need to find a way to clarify this so that not everyone who comes to this gets overwhelmed.
15:03:02 [matt__]
Ronald: Might it be better to have Location renamed as Anchor primitive?
15:03:06 [ahill2]
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15:03:21 [matt__]
ahill2: We've played with this, I don't have an objection to this.
15:04:29 [matt__]
matt: Remember everything is relative here. I'd be happy renaming it anything. Foobar9 is fine with me.
15:04:47 [matt__]
Thomas: Could we have a field that specifies what it's relative to?
15:04:56 [matt__]
ahill2: I think we agree on that, how it's going to come in is TBD.
15:05:22 [matt__]
bertine: What is the benefit of distinguishing between fixed and non-fixed locations.
15:05:38 [matt__]
ahill2: I need to be convinced of this.
15:05:46 [matt__]
Thomas: I think this is vaguely related to the update stuff.
15:06:16 [matt__]
cperey: If you know it's fixed geospatial, you are still searching a large database, but not everything on the planet.
15:06:30 [matt__]
bertine: But saying it's a blue object also narrows it down. Or a category.
15:06:46 [matt__]
ahill2: I agree that it might not be a strong enough argument.
15:07:25 [matt__]
ahill2: Things are always going to be changing. Some things may have seemed fixed to us, but these things aren't necessarily infinitesimal irrefutable point in space.
15:07:26 [cperey]
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15:08:45 [matt__]
i/cool/Topic: Location Primitive/
15:08:50 [matt__]
Topic: Name primitive
15:08:56 [matt__]
rrsragent, draft minutes
15:09:02 [matt__]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:09:02 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt__
15:09:17 [matt__]
ahill2: I think this got in there from the context of where everything has a name.
15:09:44 [matt__]
ahill2: For instance an annotation, it may not have a name.
15:10:03 [matt__]
cperey: I use Evernote and there's a field for name. It still makes a note even though it doesn't have a name.
15:10:13 [matt__]
Ronald: If it's just an image is it a POI?
15:10:17 [matt__]
Ronald: I think it is.
15:10:31 [matt__]
ahill2: We'd be making an assumption that there would be a listing or a display of text.
15:10:49 [matt__]
ahill2: When we do these listings of RDF terms it constructs it's own IDs on the fly and we accept that.
15:10:49 [danbri]
(I've been trying to say "POI description" most of the time, to hide from the question of 'is it really a POI' :)
15:11:29 [matt__]
ahill2: If you want uniqueness then you have IDs.
15:11:36 [matt__]
Luca: But then everything could be optional.
15:11:43 [matt__]
danbri: HTML does that and there's still a web.
15:12:14 [matt__]
danbri: If we're doing stuff that we want to give incentives to publish good stuff, I'd rather discuss that than the tiny detail of whether it is mandatory or not.
15:12:24 [matt__]
ahill2: I think we're in agreement that it is optional but that there is value to it.
15:12:35 [Luca_]
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15:12:38 [matt__]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: name is optional but valuable.
15:12:41 [matt__]
ahill2: KML has...
15:12:51 [matt__]
ahill2: Name has value.
15:13:00 [matt__]
martinL: How does google maps render the name and description?
15:13:20 [matt__]
ahill2: You get the name under the icon, you get the description in the bubble when you click.
15:13:38 [matt__]
ahill2: You can construct the pop-up ballon as you see fit.
15:13:49 [matt__]
ahill2: On a map you will see a sea of these things and there is value to having labels on them.
15:14:09 [matt__]
ahill2: I think those who are not hear would argue that it's a value to have a name.
15:14:15 [matt__]
Thomas: But you can't force it on people.
15:14:31 [matt__]
ahill2: I think we'll look back later and go "name? that's quaint".
15:14:31 [JonathanJ]
google street map and image search -
15:15:02 [matt__]
Ronald: It really depends on the use case. For AR I don't think it's really needed, but from a POI perspective it might make sense.
15:15:11 [matt__]
Thomas: I think we can recommend that we have some sort of description.
15:15:25 [matt__]
ahill2: Is name enough? Or do we need a snippet about it? A description?
15:15:34 [matt__]
ahill2: Then it's a slippery slope.
15:15:53 [matt__]
ahill2: Is it inlined or linked?
15:16:00 [matt__]
Thomas: My inclination is that the description is short enough to be inline.
15:16:15 [danbri]
of 2 billion Web users (~ ) quite a few are illiterate and accessing via phones
15:16:17 [matt__]
Thomas: If they're writing more than a few lines they'll probably want to have a geolocated web page.
15:16:33 [matt__]
bertine: Plus blind people.
15:17:01 [matt__]
danbri: Not to mention illiterate people using the Web on mobile phones.
15:17:08 [ahill2]
15:17:18 [matt__]
ahill2: GML has a name and a description.
15:17:20 [danbri]
(minutes not to record the order in which i listed countries/regions :)
15:17:26 [jacques]
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15:17:29 [matt__]
ahill2: They mirror in some sense what KML did.
15:17:48 [matt__]
ahill2: They didn't add a whole bunch of fields, they had name and description and felt it appropriate. Maybe we recommend those optionally.
15:18:11 [danbri]
literacy rates:
15:20:28 [matt__]
Thomas: What are the actions?
15:20:34 [matt__]
ahill2: Maybe we can recap some of the discussion.
15:21:09 [matt__]
-> F2F 1 day 1 minutes
15:21:20 [matt__]
-> F2F 1 Day 2 minutes
15:23:36 [matt__]
Thomas: Do we want the name to be an identifier or a description?
15:23:42 [matt__]
matt: a description.
15:23:43 [matt__]
martinL: I agree.
15:23:56 [matt__]
PROPOSED RESOLUTION: names are descriptions not identifiers
15:24:20 [matt__]
[[scribe fail]]
15:24:31 [matt__]
ahill2: Last time we went down this people started suggesting we develop a string primitive.
15:26:10 [matt__]
ahill2: What is best practice for the following: some XML that is a character string, but I want to say what language and character set that thing is in?
15:26:18 [matt__]
danbri: The whole document is in one character set.
15:26:33 [matt__]
danbri: Each document is in only one character encoding.
15:26:57 [matt__]
danbri: Then XML lang has a controlled set of values, e.g. it's romanized Arabic.
15:27:08 [matt__]
matt: And that xml:lang can appear on any particular element in the document.
15:27:47 [matt__]
Thomas: There could be a single POI that is sent to a client and if it's just that one POI being sent then you probably want the character set to be specified if it's not the default.
15:28:16 [matt__]
danbri: If you've got a database, you've probably sanitized it to some charset. If someone comes along requesting another charset, then it depends on the protocol.
15:28:33 [matt__]
Thomas: If a description is written in a specific character set then the client should know that.
15:29:02 [matt__]
danbri: What charset to expect might be needed, but not what it originally was expressed in.
15:29:28 [matt__]
ahill2: The concern was that there are different names and these databases in the world will have a bunch of names. How does a POI send that across?
15:29:43 [matt__]
ahill2: Those database folks have to store them. The point is, is there a value in sending across multiple names?
15:30:00 [matt__]
ahill2: Do I have all the POIs on my device? Or is that a search problem?
15:30:34 [matt__]
Thomas: I think it is metadata within the POI to help narrow search results.
15:30:56 [matt_]
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15:31:10 [matt_]
ahill2: You've done your thing and you send it to your client and you have some metadata with it, and you can do searches on your device, etc, but the name element having to accommodate these things?
15:31:22 [matt_]
Thomas: I don't think you have to, you don't in HTML.
15:31:28 [fons]
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15:32:34 [danbri]
re names/labels, the hands-free use cases might be important (so audio file labels or IPA pronunciation info) might be worth recording
15:32:48 [matt_]
PROPOSED ACTION: somebody needs to produce some reasonable examples of name and description and propose some kind of namespaced/subset of XML for it
15:33:05 [matt_]
ahill2_: Leaving the description as metadata? I think there might be some value to formalizing it.
15:33:33 [matt_]
Thomas: If we're talking a 3d model, then the description might not be useful, but where it's a text world, is there value in having a name and a description of what the thing is about?
15:33:40 [matt_]
[[scribe totally sure he didn't follow that]]
15:33:54 [matt_]
ahill2_: In KML you have the option of inlining your presentation heavy description.
15:34:08 [matt_]
Thomas: Is the description useful or just about displaying it.
15:34:11 [matt_]
ahill2_: Just displaying it.
15:34:56 [danbri]
jacques suggests use of relax-ng for multi-namespace schemas
15:35:02 [matt_]
jacques: I suggest using --
15:35:06 [matt_]
jacques: I can write a schema for it.
15:35:07 [danbri]
15:35:33 [matt_]
ahill2_: What is the interplay in something as simple as an annotation between a description and what is shown?
15:36:10 [matt_]
ahill2_: When these things first came out with annotating the world with text blurbs it was cool, but my feeling is in the future we'll have all sorts of other data that is more appropriate. So, why build something that is presentational?
15:36:18 [matt_]
Thomas: it's not presentational, it's about the thing.
15:36:31 [matt_]
danbri: Not to mention blind people.
15:36:45 [matt_]
Thomas: I think the use case for text labels will be there in the future, just there will be more in the future.
15:37:11 [matt_]
Thomas: Is the description the same as something that appears in visual annotation? or are they two separate fields?
15:37:23 [matt_]
ahill2_: If you don't send a description, and don't send a 3d model or any other content, then...?
15:37:26 [matt_]
Thomas: Then there is nothing.
15:37:50 [matt_]
ahill2_: There's a POI there, that is just a location?
15:38:07 [matt_]
danbri: If we're talking about say two rooms that are identical, but one has a QR code thats sufficie --
15:38:37 [matt_]
ahill2_: I think we're going the wrong way there. If you have a POI and the name, description, etc are optional and there's nothing but a location there what happens?
15:38:42 [matt_]
ahill2_: This happens quite a lot actually.
15:38:53 [matt_]
danbri: It could be a breadcrumb from something else.
15:39:07 [matt_]
ahill2_: This is the center of the room, and the rest of my augmentation is relative to that.
15:39:39 [matt_]
ahill2_: It's establishing a location -- sure it could be argued that it's not a "point of interest", but we'll get into that tomorrow.
15:39:49 [matt_]
Thomas: We could say it requires either a location or ID.
15:40:34 [matt_]
matt: Couldn't the ID be the URI that when dereferenced is the POI?
15:40:38 [matt_]
Thomas: Assuming there's only one.
15:40:55 [matt_]
bertine: There's an invisible object with a set of coordinates and within that there are relative coordinates, then you don't need an ID.
15:41:11 [matt_]
ahill2_: This goes back to whether we have a hierarchical representation or not.
15:41:21 [matt_]
ahill2_: We have to decide this.
15:41:28 [Luca_]
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15:42:11 [matt_]
Thomas: I would say if we have hierarchy then you don't need an id, but I wouldn't want to have hierarchy be a requirement. You may want them to be related to one another but not in the same document.
15:43:39 [matt_]
matt: I don't think we've addressed having multiple POIs within the XML file?
15:45:57 [matt_]
ahill2_: We have to figure out if we want hierarchies like that.
15:46:03 [matt_]
ahill2_: We're talking about frames of reference here.
15:46:31 [matt_]
Thomas: My feeling is that it shouldn't be hierarchy based.
15:46:41 [matt_]
Thomas: If it is relative it shouldn't have to be in a hierarchy form to do that.
15:46:54 [matt_]
ahill2_: Yes, shouldn't be required for it to be hierarchical.
15:47:12 [matt_]
bertine: The only reason we brought it up was whether all things have an ID?
15:47:23 [matt_]
bertine: Do you have a hierarchical relationship or an ID for the POI?
15:47:38 [matt_]
ahill2_: If you want to reference something give it an ID, and if you don't want to reference it don't put it in your XML.
15:48:11 [matt_]
Ronald: We've run into problems with POIs having IDs. At the beginning it was optional, and later we tried to improve update frequencies, and it came back to bite us.
15:48:22 [matt_]
Thomas: I think we can have a strong recommendation, but still not make it a requirement.
15:48:40 [matt_]
danbri: I think what Layar can say as a platform is stronger than what we can say as a spce.
15:48:43 [matt_]
15:48:53 [matt_]
Thomas: I'd love to say everything has a unique id, but I don't think it's realistic.
15:49:48 [matt_]
matt: We can agree that IDs are document unique?
15:49:49 [matt_]
ahill2_: Yes.
15:50:39 [matt_]
matt: We will use the rules specified in XML base or XML id or whatever to go from an XML ID to a GUID.
15:50:55 [matt_]
ahill2_: They will make unique ids within their domains, etc.
15:51:10 [matt_]
ahill2_: We haven't come up with any solid arguments why protocols that are used today don't work for us in POIs.
15:51:19 [matt_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:51:19 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt_
15:52:06 [matt_]
s/scribe: Matt/Scribe: matt_/
15:52:09 [matt_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:52:09 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt_
15:52:20 [cperey]
cperey has joined #poiwg
15:52:49 [matt_]
i/in HTML/Scribe: matt_/
15:53:09 [matt_]
i/If I have an image based/Scribe: matt__/
15:53:11 [matt_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:53:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt_
15:54:23 [matt_]
ahill2_: Adjourned!
15:54:25 [matt_]
rrsagent, draft minutes
15:54:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate matt_
15:54:32 [matt_]
trackbot: end meeting
15:54:32 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
15:54:32 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:54:33 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:54:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
15:54:34 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
15:54:34 [RRSAgent]
I see 10 open action items saved in :
15:54:34 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jonathan to add Nokia Point and Find: [1]
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15:54:34 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jonathan to fix link for Wikitude [2]
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ACTION: matt to add links to existing standards [3]
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ACTION: danbri to summarize URIs in QR codes to POIWG group [4]
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ACTION: danbri identify relevant specs for rotation/orientation included at point of photo/video creation - what is current practice? [5]
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ACTION: martinL to work on time spans with Thomas [6]
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ACTION: martin to work on time spans with Thomas [7]
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ACTION: Alex to place some examples in mercurial [8]
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ACTION: dan summarise the linked data / RDF approach to classes (RDF) and topics (SKOS), and their use via URIs [9]
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15:54:34 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Alex to report back to WG how in practice the expression of multiple categories and/or topics is accompished [10]
15:54:34 [RRSAgent]
recorded in