IRC log of sparql on 2011-03-29

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:43 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #sparql

13:57:43 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-sparql-irc

13:57:45 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

13:57:45 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #sparql

13:57:47 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 77277

13:57:47 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

13:57:48 [trackbot]

Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference

13:57:48 [trackbot]

Date: 29 March 2011

13:57:48 [LeeF]

zakim, this will be SPARQL

13:57:48 [Zakim]

ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

13:58:20 [LeeF]

Regrets: Chime, NickH, sandro

13:58:23 [LeeF]

Chair: LeeF

13:58:27 [bglimm]

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13:58:41 [LeeF]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-03-29

13:58:54 [Zakim]

SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

13:58:56 [Zakim]

+AxelPolleres

13:59:06 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

13:59:08 [Zakim]

+??P13

13:59:09 [Zakim]

-??P13

13:59:09 [Zakim]

+??P13

13:59:13 [cbuilara]

zakim, IPcaller is me

13:59:13 [Zakim]

+cbuilara; got it

13:59:31 [MattPerry]

MattPerry has joined #sparql

13:59:43 [Zakim]

+bglimm

13:59:45 [Zakim]

+LeeF

13:59:46 [kasei]

Zakim, ??P13 is me

13:59:46 [Zakim]

+kasei; got it

13:59:52 [Zakim]

+OlivierCorby

14:00:08 [SteveH__]

SteveH__ has joined #sparql

14:00:10 [LeeF]

scribenick: bglimm

14:00:28 [Zakim]

+MattPerry

14:00:50 [Zakim]

+??P21

14:00:58 [SteveH__]

Zakim, ??P21 is me

14:00:58 [Zakim]

+SteveH__; got it

14:01:06 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:01:06 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AxelPolleres, kasei, cbuilara, bglimm, LeeF, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, SteveH__

14:01:56 [alepas]

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14:02:35 [LeeF]

topic: Admin

14:02:39 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-22

14:02:41 [bglimm]

Topic: Admin

14:02:53 [Zakim]

+pgearon

14:03:00 [Zakim]

+ +539149aaaa

14:03:12 [alepas]

Zakim, +539149aaaa is me

14:03:12 [Zakim]

+alepas; got it

14:03:21 [LeeF]

RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-22

14:03:26 [Zakim]

+??P26

14:03:29 [LeeF]

Next regular meeting: 2011-04-05 @ 15:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Axel or Alex)

14:03:30 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P26 is me

14:03:30 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:04:17 [Souri]

Souri has joined #sparql

14:04:27 [AxelPolleres]

comments page should be up-to-date

14:04:34 [bglimm]

LeeF: We have some comments, mostly under control

14:04:39 [LeeF]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Comments

14:04:47 [AxelPolleres]

some are unasigned, still

14:05:03 [bglimm]

... maybe spend some tome on not in, in

14:05:13 [Zakim]

+Souri_

14:05:55 [bglimm]

.... SPARQL implementations currently have no understanding of datatypes, which can result in unintuitive results for comparissons

14:06:34 [bglimm]

... should SPARQL prescribe some understanding for core datatypes in comparrisson operators

14:06:45 [bglimm]

... Andy, teve, should we look into that?

14:06:52 [bglimm]

s/teve/Steve/

14:07:07 [bglimm]

SteveH: Seems like an improvement, but not full understanding

14:08:13 [bglimm]

AndyS: The comment is related to 1.0 stuff and not specific to 1.1

14:08:33 [AndyS]

It will change a basic, unextended SPARQL 1.0 query processor. (we should have done it last time but that makes it a change)

14:08:45 [bglimm]

LeeF: Not much enthusiasm for this topic, so lets not spend too much time on it

14:09:08 [bglimm]

AxelPolleres: We are mostly up-to-date

14:09:15 [SteveH]

would be it be sufficient to recommend that SPARQL 1.1 processors should handle all the datatypes so that...

14:09:16 [LeeF]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2011Mar/0018.html

14:09:17 [AndyS]

While sensible, it's technically a change. Not sure if its in the 1.0 test suite or not.

14:09:25 [SteveH]

SHOULD or something

14:09:26 [bglimm]

... regarding the comments

14:10:38 [LeeF]

topic: Last Call Status

14:10:49 [LeeF]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/To_Last_Call

14:11:14 [bglimm]

LeeF: Lets go through the documents and editors correct me if I am wrong with something

14:11:34 [bglimm]

... Query has still some editorial comments and aggregates algebra section

14:11:51 [bglimm]

... has still some things that can be improved

14:12:03 [bglimm]

SteveH: Not much knew from me

14:12:24 [bglimm]

AndyS: I did some changes for RDF merge and wait for Axel's second part of the review

14:12:46 [bglimm]

LeeF: If I had some time, shoud I rather work on the protocoll or review query?

14:13:10 [bglimm]

AndyS: We had already three reviews, so I think protocol is more important to get done

14:13:21 [Zakim]

-AndyS

14:13:21 [bglimm]

SteveH: Same from my side

14:13:51 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:13:55 [AndyS]

zakim, IPcaller is me

14:13:55 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:14:00 [kasei]

was I meant to start that review yet? I thought I was waiting on somebody to ping me on that?

14:14:05 [bglimm]

LeeF: Update had some work done regarding Axel's review, Andy's review is still to be addressed

14:14:31 [LeeF]

kasei, ah, i did not realize that

14:14:52 [bglimm]

AxelPolleres: There is nothing that cannot be resolved by us. Andy suggested some restructuring to make the distinction between the formal and informal part

14:15:01 [bglimm]

... that has not been done yet

14:15:31 [NicoM]

NicoM has joined #sparql

14:15:34 [bglimm]

.... I'll sync up with Paul and Alex for that. We are not too far from LC

14:15:45 [bglimm]

LeeF: I think Greg can go ahead with his review

14:16:35 [bglimm]

Axel: I worked in parallel to Axel, so now we have to resolve CVS conflicts and get an overview again

14:16:57 [bglimm]

.... seems Axel has done a lot of stuff, so most might be addressed

14:17:13 [kasei]

ok

14:17:15 [bglimm]

AxelPolleres: Points that are open are marked in my email answer to Andy

14:17:17 [LeeF]

kasei, thanks

14:17:34 [kasei]

am out of the country now, but will try to review it soon

14:17:36 [bglimm]

.... some things are left open because I wait for conirmation from Paul

14:17:55 [bglimm]

LeeF: Protocol, nothing new, same for Service Descriptions

14:17:55 [kasei]

correct

14:18:23 [bglimm]

.... RDF Dataset/HTTP Protocol, we have to look at the name of the doc shortly

14:18:41 [bglimm]

... Kjetil's comments still have to be considered

14:19:42 [bglimm]

bglimm: d-entailment updated for ent. regimes and section added for property paths

14:20:05 [LeeF]

ACTION: Matt to look at new d-entailment text

14:20:05 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - Matt

14:20:08 [bglimm]

LeeF: Matt, can you look at the D-Entailment section?

14:20:09 [LeeF]

ACTION: Matthew to look at new d-entailment text

14:20:09 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-422 - Look at new d-entailment text [on Matthew Perry - due 2011-04-05].

14:20:10 [bglimm]

Matt: Yes

14:20:43 [bglimm]

LeeF: Federated Query is waiting on Axel and myself to finish the review

14:20:49 [bglimm]

.... other documents nothing new

14:20:58 [bglimm]

... Anything important for LC?

14:21:10 [LeeF]

topic: Name of the RDF dataset protocol specification

14:21:12 [bglimm]

(silence)

14:21:38 [bglimm]

LeeF: We realised that the name might not be appropriate

14:22:03 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: Rename the datset protocol to the SPARQL 1.1 Graph Store HTTP Protocol

14:22:12 [bglimm]

... It is about managing graph stores. So we could change dataset to graph store

14:22:19 [bglimm]

... Chime is ok with that

14:22:26 [bglimm]

... any objections to that change?

14:22:35 [AndyS]

seconded

14:22:38 [NicoM]

+1

14:22:40 [AxelPolleres]

+1

14:22:40 [Souri]

+1

14:22:52 [LeeF]

RESOLVED: Rename the datset protocol to the SPARQL 1.1 Graph Store HTTP Protocol

14:23:05 [AxelPolleres]

Note that we need to propagate this change to other docs referring to that one!

14:23:08 [LeeF]

topic: tests

14:23:16 [AxelPolleres]

q+

14:23:27 [LeeF]

close ACTION-421

14:23:27 [trackbot]

ACTION-421 Look through test cases and provide a summary by next TC closed

14:23:31 [bglimm]

LeeF: Olivier looked through the test cases and where we stand

14:24:17 [kasei]

I reference it in the SD doc

14:24:20 [kasei]

will change

14:24:26 [bglimm]

me too

14:24:27 [LeeF]

AxelPolleres: we need to make sure that all other documents update the name of the http protocol document

14:25:01 [LeeF]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0501.html

14:25:37 [bglimm]

LeeF: Hope we can approve some tests

14:26:54 [bglimm]

LeeF: Olivier ran the tests with his implementation

14:27:19 [LeeF]

Corese

14:27:19 [bglimm]

.... two areas where we miss test cases

14:27:34 [AndyS]

See http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/data-sparql11/manifest-all.ttl ARQ gets: Tests = 332 : Successes = 298 : Errors = 9 : Failures = 25

14:27:47 [bglimm]

... for the IF function and scoping? for zero length paths

14:28:12 [bglimm]

LeeF: AndyS, can we get that covered

14:28:24 [bglimm]

AndyS: I was hoping for WG support for this

14:28:58 [bglimm]

LeeF: Matt, would you mind to come up with a test that covers the missing property path features?

14:29:05 [LeeF]

ACTION: Matthew to include a test on nodes in path of length zero come from specified named graph (e.g. graph <g1> {?x <p>* ?y})

14:29:05 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-423 - Include a test on nodes in path of length zero come from specified named graph (e.g. graph <g1> {?x <p>* ?y}) [on Matthew Perry - due 2011-04-05].

14:29:06 [bglimm]

Matt: I can do that

14:29:17 [LeeF]

ACTION: Lee to follow-up and make sure we get IF() tests

14:29:17 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-424 - Follow-up and make sure we get IF() tests [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-04-05].

14:29:40 [bglimm]

LeeF: We still have some empty directories

14:31:02 [bglimm]

... I fixed the manifest now.

14:31:24 [bglimm]

... Olivier picked up on negative syntax tests, should we keep these types?

14:31:46 [bglimm]

... Do we have similar types for the positive tests?

14:32:10 [bglimm]

... Any opinions?

14:32:14 [bglimm]

(silence)

14:32:18 [kasei]

is it in a different namespace?

14:32:23 [kasei]

the new 1.1 namespace?

14:32:30 [LeeF]

mf:NegativeSyntaxTest

14:32:30 [LeeF]

mf:NegativeSyntaxTest11

14:32:30 [LeeF]

mf:NegativeUpdateSyntaxTest11

14:32:39 [kasei]

mf is the old dawg namespace, then?

14:32:42 [Zakim]

-alepas

14:32:53 [Zakim]

-cbuilara

14:32:59 [LeeF]

@prefix mf: <http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/tests/test-manifest#> .

14:33:06 [kasei]

if it's the same namespace, I'd prefer keeping the '11'

14:33:35 [bglimm]

AndyS: I suggest the negative syntax tests without 1.1 should be changed

14:34:05 [Zakim]

+NicoM

14:34:07 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

14:34:08 [bglimm]

LeeF: Should we move all syntax tests into one directory?

14:34:09 [AxelPolleres]

I didn't add those classes yet, I am afraid (the ones with 11)

14:34:14 [cbuilara]

Zakim, IPcaller is me

14:34:14 [Zakim]

+cbuilara; got it

14:34:19 [Zakim]

+ +3539149aabb

14:34:29 [alepas]

Zakim, +3539149aabb is me

14:34:29 [Zakim]

+alepas; got it

14:34:33 [AxelPolleres]

q+

14:34:39 [LeeF]

ack AxelPolleres

14:34:46 [bglimm]

AndyS: The syntax tests should have coverage even if hey are scattared in different directories

14:35:21 [bglimm]

AxelPolleres: Do we need NegativeSyntaxTest11 and NegativeUpdateSyntaxTest11?

14:35:32 [kasei]

think it needs to either be just negativesyntaxtest11 or be explicit by changing NegativeSyntaxTest to NegativeQuerySyntaxTest

14:35:39 [kasei]

prefer the latter

14:35:42 [bglimm]

.... Is that not clear from the fact that the test is an update test or a query test?

14:35:52 [bglimm]

AndyS: I find it clearer the way it is.

14:36:08 [bglimm]

AxelPolleres: Do we need the same for PositiveSyntax...Test?

14:36:16 [bglimm]

AndyS: I think we have that already.

14:36:34 [bglimm]

.... Yes, and that's the only way to distinguish them, so we have to keep it

14:37:10 [AxelPolleres]

I need an action to add those new types to mf: and to README.html

14:37:12 [bglimm]

AndyS: For the syntax tests the type is important to distinguish them

14:37:35 [bglimm]

LeeF: The ones in Aggregates without the 11 have to be updated. I'll do that now

14:38:20 [AxelPolleres]

ACTION: Axel to add those new types to mf: and to README.html

14:38:20 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-425 - Add those new types to mf: and to README.html [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-04-05].

14:38:58 [AxelPolleres]

... new types: Positive/NegativeSyntaxTest11 and Positive/NegativeUpdateSyntaxTest11 yes?

14:39:01 [bglimm]

LeeF: Do you know whether that is the only place?

14:39:06 [bglimm]

AndyS: Yes.

14:39:14 [bglimm]

LeeF: Ok, then I updated that

14:40:56 [LeeF]

ACTION: Andy to change the @prefix : prefix in the syntax directories to use an absolute URI

14:40:56 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-426 - Change the @prefix : prefix in the syntax directories to use an absolute URI [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-04-05].

14:41:39 [AxelPolleres]

q+

14:41:57 [LeeF]

ack AxelPolleres

14:41:59 [bglimm]

LeeF: We are not consistent in the update tests for specifying the data

14:42:18 [bglimm]

AxelPolleres: We don't really need new types for the query evaluation tests

14:42:23 [AxelPolleres]

:QueryEvaluationTest vs :QueryEvaluationTest11 ?

14:43:01 [bglimm]

AndyS: We make sure that when you execute the test suite, you do 1.1.

14:43:13 [LeeF]

ut:graphData [ ut:graph

14:43:13 [LeeF]

ut:graphData [ ut:data

14:43:25 [bglimm]

LeeF: ut: graph vs. ut:graph, which one should be used?

14:43:52 [bglimm]

s/ut: graph/ut:data/

14:44:20 [bglimm]

AxelPolleres: data is just for the default graph

14:44:59 [bglimm]

LeeF: Is the second of my example incorrect?

14:45:02 [AxelPolleres]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/tests/README.html#updateevaltests

14:45:55 [LeeF]

ACTION: Lee to clean up occurrences of ut:graphData [ ut:data

14:45:55 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-427 - Clean up occurrences of ut:graphData [ ut:data [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-04-05].

14:46:24 [bglimm]

LeeF: extra prefixes don't harm, could be cleaned up

14:46:32 [bglimm]

... same for duplicate tests

14:47:07 [bglimm]

... delete/insert, we know about the blank node in the template issue

14:47:16 [bglimm]

... should now be a negative syntax test

14:47:33 [LeeF]

ACTION: Lee to fix the delete-insert queries that should be negative syntax tests in delete-insert

14:47:33 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-428 - Fix the delete-insert queries that should be negative syntax tests in delete-insert [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-04-05].

14:48:21 [bglimm]

LeeF: Olivier identified six ent. test cases that have a mistake

14:48:27 [bglimm]

bglimm: I'll check that

14:49:03 [bglimm]

LeeF: Axel, Olivier had some comments for the readMe document, can you address those?

14:49:19 [AxelPolleres]

ACTION: Axel to ckeck Olivier's comments on the test cases README.html

14:49:19 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-429 - Ckeck Olivier's comments on the test cases README.html [on Axel Polleres - due 2011-04-05].

14:50:05 [bglimm]

LeeF: We have several successful implementations for property paths that path the property path tests

14:50:19 [bglimm]

... AndyS, have you run those tests?

14:50:28 [bglimm]

AndyS: Yes, there are 30 tests and I have run them

14:50:32 [AndyS]

Tests = 30 : Successes = 30 : Errors = 0 : Failures = 0

14:51:09 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: Approve the 30 tests in the property-path directory

14:51:10 [AndyS]

(error means bad test setup e.g. data syntax wrong ; failure means different results)

14:51:22 [kasei]

+1

14:51:24 [AndyS]

seconded

14:51:30 [OlivierCorby]

+1

14:51:34 [LeeF]

RESOLVED: Approve the 30 tests in the property-path directory

14:51:42 [LeeF]

ACTION: Lee to mark 30 prop path tests approved today

14:51:43 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-430 - Mark 30 prop path tests approved today [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-04-05].

14:52:06 [bglimm]

LeeF: I wanted to look at the negative syntax tests

14:53:12 [bglimm]

... bad01 to bad03, they don't have update opertions, AndyS suggests we make that legal, so the tests are no longer negative tests

14:53:27 [bglimm]

... can be useful in some applications

14:53:45 [kasei]

I'm hesitant, but no strong feelings

14:54:05 [bglimm]

... Paul, Alex, any implications for the upate spec?

14:54:21 [bglimm]

Paul (?): I think that wouldn't be a big change.

14:54:39 [bglimm]

LeeF: Are you indifferent, in favour, or against that?

14:54:57 [bglimm]

Paul (?): I don't have strong feeling, but seems ok

14:55:30 [bglimm]

LeeF: I don't see it doing harm and seems easy

14:55:44 [bglimm]

AndyS: Changes the grammar

14:56:00 [bglimm]

.. the grammar is in the query doc even for update

14:56:06 [LeeF]

ACTION: Andy to change update grammar to allow zero-operation update requests

14:56:06 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-431 - Change update grammar to allow zero-operation update requests [on Andy Seaborne - due 2011-04-05].

14:57:03 [bglimm]

AxelPolleres: AndyS, for INSERT DATA and DELETE DATA, we do have quads there now. Is that intended?

14:57:19 [bglimm]

AndyS: That is unrelated to zero operation deletes

14:57:25 [bglimm]

AxelPolleres: Yes

14:57:42 [bglimm]

AndyS: There is a note that says that there are no variables

14:57:50 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: Approve tests in syntax-update-1 except for *bad-0{1,2,3}.ru

14:57:54 [bglimm]

... that's in 19.8

14:58:31 [LeeF]

Let's take up all the syntax tests next time

14:58:35 [bglimm]

AndyS: I can do the prefix update first and then prprove the tests next week

14:58:45 [LeeF]

Adjourned.

14:58:55 [MattPerry]

bye

14:58:55 [SteveH]

bye everyone

14:58:56 [Zakim]

-SteveH__

14:59:01 [Zakim]

-AndyS

14:59:04 [Zakim]

-LeeF

14:59:06 [Zakim]

-MattPerry

14:59:07 [Zakim]

-alepas

14:59:08 [Zakim]

-cbuilara

14:59:11 [Zakim]

-kasei

14:59:12 [Zakim]

-OlivierCorby

14:59:12 [Zakim]

-Souri_

14:59:16 [bglimm]

RRSAgent, make records public

14:59:26 [Zakim]

-AxelPolleres

14:59:29 [Zakim]

-bglimm

14:59:33 [Zakim]

-NicoM

15:00:16 [Zakim]

-pgearon

15:00:17 [Zakim]

SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended

15:00:19 [Zakim]

Attendees were AxelPolleres, cbuilara, bglimm, LeeF, kasei, OlivierCorby, MattPerry, SteveH__, pgearon, alepas, AndyS, Souri_, NicoM

15:04:19 [bglimm]

rrsagent, create minutes

15:04:19 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/29-sparql-minutes.html bglimm

15:04:46 [bglimm]

member:RRSAgent, make records public

15:04:54 [bglimm]

RRSAgent, make logs world

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16:34:08 [AndyS]

Grammar mods -- ";;;;;;;;;" is a parse error. i.e. ";" is a separator of concrete operations. request is operations*, ";" is separator and optional terminator.

16:36:48 [AndyS]

While I'm modifying tests, any (more) bad syntax examples anyway wants to add to the suite?

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AxelPolleres has joined #sparql

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17:40:12 [LeeF]

close ACTION-426

17:40:12 [trackbot]

ACTION-426 Change the @prefix : prefix in the syntax directories to use an absolute URI closed

17:40:16 [LeeF]

close ACTION-431

17:40:16 [trackbot]

ACTION-431 Change update grammar to allow zero-operation update requests closed

18:27:42 [LeeF]

close ACTION-430

18:27:43 [trackbot]

ACTION-430 Mark 30 prop path tests approved today closed

18:33:14 [LeeF]

close ACTION-428

18:33:14 [trackbot]

ACTION-428 Fix the delete-insert queries that should be negative syntax tests in delete-insert closed

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