IRC log of rdf-wg on 2011-03-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:32 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdf-wg
14:51:32 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-rdf-wg-irc
14:51:50 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
14:52:14 [mbrunati]
rrrsagent, make records public
14:52:32 [mbrunati]
rrsagent, make records public
14:52:49 [JFB]
JFB has joined #rdf-wg
14:53:10 [mbrunati]
agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.09
14:56:16 [pfps]
pfps has joined #rdf-wg
14:56:22 [mbrunati]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:56:22 [Zakim]
sorry, mbrunati, I don't know what conference this is
14:56:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see pfps, JFB, Zakim, RRSAgent, OlivierCorby, AxelPolleres, mbrunati, LeeF_, LeeF, hsbauer, webr3, mischat, danbri, ivan, yvesr, davidwood, NickH, manu1, manu, sandro,
14:56:26 [Zakim]
... trackbot
14:57:21 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #rdf-wg
14:58:03 [LeeF]
zakim, this will be rdfwg
14:58:03 [Zakim]
ok, LeeF, I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM already started
14:58:08 [mbrunati]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tony, ??P4, [IPcaller]
14:58:13 [LeeF]
zakim, code?
14:58:13 [Zakim]
the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), LeeF
14:58:17 [sandro]
RRSAgent, pointer?
14:58:17 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-rdf-wg-irc#T14-58-17
14:58:19 [yvesr]
Zakim: ??P4 is yvesr
14:58:25 [yvesr]
Zakim, ??P4 is yvesr
14:58:25 [Zakim]
+yvesr; got it
14:58:36 [mbrunati]
zakim, [IPCaller] is me
14:58:36 [Zakim]
+mbrunati; got it
14:58:39 [yvesr]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
14:58:39 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tony, yvesr, mbrunati
14:58:43 [Zakim]
+ +34.67.92.aaaa
14:58:49 [Zakim]
+Peter_Patel-Schneider
14:58:53 [Zakim]
+??P12
14:58:57 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.553.aabb
14:59:02 [LeeF]
zakim, aabb is me
14:59:02 [Zakim]
+ +34.92.38.aacc
14:59:02 [Zakim]
+LeeF; got it
14:59:03 [mbrunati]
scribe: mbrunati
14:59:07 [JFB]
+34.67.92.aaaa is JFB
14:59:10 [Zakim]
-Tony
14:59:11 [Zakim]
+Sandro
14:59:16 [Zakim]
+??P15
14:59:18 [manu]
zakim, I am ??aabb
14:59:18 [Zakim]
sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '??aabb'
14:59:24 [AndyS]
zakim, ??p15 is me
14:59:25 [Zakim]
+AxelPolleres
14:59:25 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:59:26 [gavin]
gavin has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:28 [manu]
zakim, I am aabb
14:59:30 [JFB]
zakim, +34.67.92.aaaa is JFB
14:59:31 [Zakim]
sorry, manu, I do not see a party named 'aabb'
14:59:33 [Zakim]
+JFB; got it
14:59:37 [mbrunati]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:59:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, Peter_Patel-Schneider, ??P12, LeeF, +34.92.38.aacc, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres
14:59:39 [manu]
zakim, I am +1.617.553.aabb
14:59:42 [Zakim]
sorry, manu, I do not see a party named '+1.617.553.aabb'
14:59:44 [Zakim]
+Tony
14:59:50 [OlivierCorby]
zakim, aacc is me
14:59:50 [Zakim]
+OlivierCorby; got it
14:59:52 [AlexHall]
AlexHall has joined #rdf-wg
14:59:54 [Zakim]
-??P12
15:00:30 [Zakim]
+??P12
15:00:38 [Zakim]
+ +1.707.861.aadd
15:00:39 [manu]
zakim, I am ??P12
15:00:39 [Zakim]
+manu; got it
15:00:52 [FabGandon]
FabGandon has joined #rdf-wg
15:00:55 [Zakim]
+ +1.443.212.aaee
15:00:57 [gavin]
zakim, I am +1.707.861.aadd
15:00:57 [Zakim]
+gavin; got it
15:01:39 [cygri]
cygri has joined #rdf-wg
15:01:57 [cygri]
zakim, mhausenblas is me
15:02:10 [gavin]
zakim, mute me
15:02:24 [sandro]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:31 [cygri]
no zakim
15:02:33 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:02:37 [cygri]
oh hi zakim
15:02:39 [gavin]
zakim, mute me
15:02:41 [JFB]
zakim, mute me
15:02:43 [Zakim]
sorry, gavin, I don't know what conference this is
15:02:44 [sandro]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:47 [cygri]
zakim, who is here?
15:02:47 [sandro]
zakim, this is rif-wg
15:02:49 [Zakim]
sorry, JFB, I don't know what conference this is
15:02:51 [Zakim]
sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is
15:02:58 [gavin]
zakim, this is rdf-wg
15:02:59 [Zakim]
sorry, cygri, I don't know what conference this is
15:02:59 [sandro]
zakim, this is rdf-wg
15:03:03 [Zakim]
sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'rif-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:03:05 [mbrunati]
thanks
15:03:06 [tomayac]
tomayac has joined #rdf-wg
15:03:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see cygri, FabGandon, AlexHall, gavin, AndyS, pfps, JFB, RRSAgent, AxelPolleres, mbrunati, LeeF_, LeeF, hsbauer, webr3, mischat, danbri, ivan, yvesr, davidwood, NickH,
15:03:09 [LeeF]
sandro, it's already setup
15:03:14 [Zakim]
... manu1, manu, sandro, trackbot
15:03:14 [LeeF]
it's "rdfwg"
15:03:18 [Zakim]
sorry, gavin, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:03:20 [Zakim]
sorry, sandro, I do not see a conference named 'rdf-wg' in progress or scheduled at this time
15:03:21 [sandro]
LeeF, it was not....
15:03:26 [sandro]
zakim, this is rdfwg
15:03:30 [LeeF]
yes it was :)
15:03:38 [Zakim]
ok, sandro; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:03:43 [sandro]
Lee, then explain "--> Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169) has joined #rdf-wg"
15:03:57 [mbrunati]
who is talking?
15:04:00 [sandro]
Zakim, who is here?
15:04:02 [LeeF]
ah well, i'd have to first explain "[11:01] * Zakim (rrs-bridgg@128.30.52.169) Quit (Client exited)" i guess :)
15:04:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, Peter_Patel-Schneider, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa,
15:04:08 [mbrunati]
zakim, who is talking?
15:04:09 [sandro]
LeeF, ahhhhhh
15:04:13 [gavin]
Oh dear
15:04:19 [mbrunati]
zakim goes down
15:04:28 [mbrunati]
twice
15:04:47 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdf-wg
15:04:55 [AndyS]
and trackbot?
15:05:40 [gavin]
trackbot does seem to be here
15:05:40 [tomayac]
zakim, mute me
15:05:42 [mbrunati]
zakim, who is talking?
15:05:46 [Zakim]
sorry, tomayac, I don't know what conference this is
15:05:48 [Zakim]
sorry, mbrunati, I don't know what conference this is
15:05:52 [gavin]
zakim, this is rdfwg
15:06:00 [Zakim]
ok, gavin; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
15:06:21 [sandro]
RRSAgent, pointer
15:06:21 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-rdf-wg-irc#T15-06-21
15:06:30 [gavin]
zakim, mute me
15:06:41 [Zakim]
gavin should now be muted
15:06:51 [AndyS]
zakim, who is on the phone?
15:06:52 [NickH]
Zakim, ??P42 is me
15:06:53 [davidwood]
Minutes from last week: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-03-09
15:06:53 [mbrunati]
minutes last telecon
15:06:55 [pfps]
minutes look fine to me
15:06:56 [davidwood]
Propose to accept
15:07:00 [sandro]
sandro has changed the topic to: RDF WG Meeting 2011-03-16 http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.03.16
15:07:01 [mbrunati]
+1
15:07:03 [tomayac]
+1
15:07:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin (muted), +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood,
15:07:15 [Zakim]
... [Sophia], +1.404.978.aaaa, ??P42 (muted)
15:07:17 [Zakim]
+NickH; got it
15:07:37 [NickH]
stupid americans ;-)
15:07:49 [davidwood]
â–ªAction item review:
15:07:49 [davidwood]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open
15:07:51 [mbrunati]
ivan: dst time and one hour before for the Europeans
15:07:53 [AlexHall]
zakim, 01+1.443.212.aaee is me
15:08:03 [Zakim]
sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '01+1.443.212.aaee'
15:08:15 [gavin]
zakim, unmute me
15:08:18 [FabGandon]
zakim, [Sophia] is me
15:08:19 [Zakim]
gavin should no longer be muted
15:08:22 [pfps]
Action 17 appears to be done
15:08:22 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 17
15:08:23 [Zakim]
+FabGandon; got it
15:08:38 [davidwood]
ACTION-17: Gavin's response at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/GraphConceptTerminology
15:08:38 [trackbot]
ACTION-17 Try and produce a digram based on the g-box, g-snap, g-text model from Sandro's email and this conversation notes added
15:08:57 [cygri]
gavin, very nice diagram!
15:09:04 [AlexHall]
zakim, 212.aaee is me
15:09:04 [Zakim]
sorry, AlexHall, I do not recognize a party named '212.aaee'
15:09:09 [mbrunati]
gavin has made the diagram on GRAPH
15:09:27 [sandro]
zakim, list attendees
15:09:28 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa,
15:09:30 [Zakim]
... David_Wood, +1.404.978.aaaa, NickH, FabGandon
15:09:35 [AndyS]
gavin, "me:" and ":me" are the same?
15:10:00 [mbrunati]
action-6
15:10:00 [gavin]
Andy, yes... thanks. Will fix :D
15:10:19 [Zakim]
-yvesr
15:10:41 [davidwood]
F2F1
15:10:41 [davidwood]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/F2F1
15:10:49 [mbrunati]
action-items, one more week with an hour earlier for the Europeans
15:11:08 [Zakim]
+??P4
15:11:10 [mbrunati]
now f2f
15:11:16 [yvesr]
Zakim, ??P4 is yvesr
15:11:16 [Zakim]
+yvesr; got it
15:11:27 [sandro]
q+ to ask about hotels
15:11:48 [gavin]
zakim, mute me
15:11:48 [Zakim]
gavin should now be muted
15:11:55 [mbrunati]
please express the intent to make presence explicit on the f2f on the wiki
15:12:33 [mbrunati]
there are some action-items for the next week
15:12:58 [mbrunati]
action-4 and action6 are overdue
15:13:13 [davidwood]
q?
15:13:17 [davidwood]
ack sandro
15:13:17 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to ask about hotels
15:13:26 [mbrunati]
more work on the GRAPH Task force
15:13:28 [NickH]
sandro: yvesr and I are staying at Mercure Hotel Amsterdam Aan de Amstel
15:13:29 [yvesr]
we're staying at the Mercure hotel
15:13:35 [yvesr]
(near Amstel station)
15:13:51 [NickH]
I believe SteveH and mischat are too
15:13:55 [mbrunati]
sandro: on hotels on the f2f at the Mercure hotel
15:14:48 [mbrunati]
topic: GRAPH TF, a proposal
15:14:50 [davidwood]
Graph task force: Richard's proposal: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Graphs/RDF-Datasets-Proposal
15:15:27 [mbrunati]
a proposal to make something concrete to work on
15:15:56 [yvesr]
Zakim, mute me
15:15:56 [Zakim]
yvesr should now be muted
15:16:13 [mbrunati]
how to address better the use cases, take the concept of RDF core, SPARQL
15:16:24 [cmatheus]
cmatheus has joined #rdf-wg
15:16:50 [mbrunati]
RDF dataset identify in SPARQL are basically syntactic
15:17:22 [mbrunati]
they are based on something already defined
15:17:49 [mbrunati]
the discussion on the ML is on two points
15:18:13 [gavin]
In addition to the named graphs and default graph mentioned by Richard many SPARQL implementations support a Union graph as well.
15:18:57 [manu]
q+ to discuss data-deduplication in RDF as it relates to bnodes.
15:19:08 [mbrunati]
semantics and SPARQL: is it complete or not?
15:19:11 [davidwood]
q?
15:19:50 [sandro]
q+
15:19:53 [Zakim]
+??P49
15:19:55 [mbrunati]
what the relations between graph, bnodes, what identify graph, g-snaps or snapshot and so on
15:20:06 [sandro]
zakim, who is talking?
15:20:06 [AxelPolleres]
well, SPARQL will say *something* about semantics in its Entailment Regimes document, but there will not be interdependencies between graphs in Datasets in SPARQL Entailment regimes.
15:20:07 [Zakim]
-??P49
15:20:09 [Zakim]
+ +1.603.897.aabb
15:20:16 [Zakim]
sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (24%), +3539149aaaa (24%), David_Wood (29%), ??P51 (20%)
15:20:29 [Zakim]
+??P49
15:21:08 [AndyS]
Axel, isn't entailment is only for graphs?
15:21:14 [mbrunati]
another point is maybe this proposal is something that is complete or not?
15:21:14 [davidwood]
ack Manu
15:21:14 [Zakim]
manu, you wanted to discuss data-deduplication in RDF as it relates to bnodes.
15:21:28 [mbrunati]
manu:
15:22:06 [mbrunati]
what are the proper directions on using bnodes in this context? g-snaps
15:22:29 [gavin]
+q to mention Union graph and it's usefulness
15:23:00 [mbrunati]
thinking on hard drives, the core OS thinking on files on different ways, and bnodes
15:23:14 [mbrunati]
we can think on them on the same way
15:24:07 [davidwood]
ack Sandro
15:24:08 [mbrunati]
bnode as a file container maybe... we really need bnodes as a cross g-snaps
15:24:26 [AndyS]
q+ to talk about graph/subgraph
15:24:30 [mbrunati]
zakim, who is talking?
15:24:40 [Zakim]
mbrunati, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (14%), David_Wood (65%)
15:24:56 [mbrunati]
bnodes are probably a problem for SPARQL users
15:25:05 [sandro]
davidwood: The problem I see with bnodes is when they are returned from a query and people want to follow-up.
15:25:42 [davidwood]
q?
15:25:49 [gavin]
Nope.
15:25:55 [davidwood]
ack AndyS
15:25:55 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to talk about graph/subgraph
15:26:00 [mbrunati]
andy:
15:26:25 [sandro]
AndyS: sometimes you know one graph is a strict mathematical subgraph, eg a inference view of the data and the base data, then you know it's the same bnode.
15:26:26 [manu]
Manu: Looking at this from a data de-duplication perspective, perhaps bnodes could be viewed as only being an implementation concern?
15:26:47 [mbrunati]
richard:
15:27:04 [sandro]
+1 test cases on bnodes
15:27:12 [sandro]
+1 test cases on bnode sharing
15:27:19 [yvesr]
+1
15:27:19 [manu]
Manu: That is, you can share the bnode data across multiple instances in a copy-on-write way... that would allow us to say that bnodes are only valid inside a particular g-snap (it would make our decision easier)
15:27:42 [davidwood]
q?
15:28:11 [mbrunati]
sandro:
15:28:12 [manu]
Manu: So, one could expect thousands of bnodes that are exactly the same between multiple g-snaps... but that storage space could be compressed using bnode de-duplication on disk.
15:28:31 [davidwood]
g-handle? :P
15:28:42 [gavin]
zakim, unmute me
15:28:42 [Zakim]
gavin was not muted, gavin
15:28:49 [mbrunati]
people use graphs and not are talking about graphs...
15:29:08 [manu]
Manu: However, there are other concerns as David and Andy mention about queries on bnodes.
15:29:14 [mbrunati]
what's the relation between URIS and g-snaps
15:29:21 [AndyS]
SPARQL's "named graph" is the pair without meaning of the relationship -- maybe we need a "best practices" for using that
15:29:26 [gavin]
+1 sandro
15:29:28 [mbrunati]
URIs as g-boxes
15:29:43 [manu]
+1 to sandro's terminology
15:29:56 [FabGandon]
+1 for URIs identifying g-boxes
15:30:05 [manu]
Graph Box -> Graph Snapshot -> Graph Representation
15:30:17 [cygri]
q+
15:30:18 [manu]
Graph Resource -> Graph Snapshot -> Graph Representation ?
15:30:18 [AndyS]
+1 to g-snap of a g-box (the IRI) at some point in time
15:30:24 [mbrunati]
we need to determine more terminology
15:30:28 [mbrunati]
gavin:
15:30:41 [gavin]
http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-http-rdf-update/
15:31:02 [manu]
Maps nicely to Resource -> Snapshot -> Representation - perhaps we should add this to TAG/WEBARCH people?
15:31:04 [mbrunati]
on the rdf update on the SPARQL WG
15:31:27 [mbrunati]
what is the mapping? in turtle
15:31:44 [AndyS]
New name of that doc is "SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol"
15:32:08 [mbrunati]
gavin: other thing in the document, SPARQL mentions union graph
15:32:18 [davidwood]
q?
15:32:22 [davidwood]
ack gavin
15:32:22 [Zakim]
gavin, you wanted to mention Union graph and it's usefulness
15:32:40 [davidwood]
ack cygri
15:32:44 [mbrunati]
what graph are coming from, what is dataset notion in this context
15:32:48 [mbrunati]
richard:
15:33:18 [danbri_]
danbri_ has joined #rdf-wg
15:33:20 [manu]
+1 sharing blank nodes between two g-snaps matters with union graphs.
15:33:22 [mbrunati]
union graph, URIs are g-boxes
15:34:13 [mbrunati]
if we want to store some metadata about the graph,
15:34:37 [mbrunati]
we have to identify a sort of snapshot of that graph
15:34:42 [danbri_]
[could someone ask Guus if he could let me into his office?]
15:35:08 [manu]
q+ to ask Guus to let Dan into his office
15:35:11 [mbrunati]
with or without some trasformation on it?
15:35:18 [gavin]
zakim, mute me
15:35:18 [Zakim]
gavin should now be muted
15:35:32 [davidwood]
q?
15:36:14 [manu]
q-
15:36:26 [mbrunati]
richard:
15:36:39 [sandro]
sandro: Excellent example, fetching http://www.w3.org and putting the metadata into a dataset, you'd have to do a (reversable) syntactic transformation, eg into http://myserve.example.com/fetched=http://www.w3.org
15:36:41 [mbrunati]
how to understand how to move forward on it?
15:37:17 [mbrunati]
sandro has pointed out more attention on terminology
15:37:21 [cygri]
propose that a g-sandro is a (URI, g-snap) pair
15:37:23 [gavin]
Yeah, but SPARQL already uses it?
15:37:29 [yvesr]
cygri: :)
15:37:34 [gavin]
FROM NAMED
15:38:00 [mbrunati]
what are graphs, definitions, better named graph definitions maybe, some confusion on defs
15:38:10 [sandro]
a "name g-box pair" ?
15:38:38 [AndyS]
q+
15:38:46 [mbrunati]
URI, IRIs graph, we have to more focus on named graph on SPARQL
15:39:13 [mbrunati]
how to get out metadata about and out of this graph?
15:39:14 [davidwood]
ack AndyS
15:39:17 [mbrunati]
andys:
15:39:54 [mbrunati]
URI as id for the graph or maybe
15:41:20 [mbrunati]
much meaning in a word, in a graph, in a name, few weeks to make clearer it
15:41:45 [Guus]
Guus has joined #rdf-wg
15:41:49 [mbrunati]
zakim, who is talking?
15:42:00 [Zakim]
mbrunati, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Peter_Patel-Schneider (30%), Sandro (5%), David_Wood (19%)
15:43:15 [mbrunati]
richard wants to make a more practical nextstep on it
15:43:24 [mbrunati]
more work on the ML
15:43:28 [davidwood]
q?
15:43:51 [sandro]
sandro: It would be great to get the wording around "named graph" made somehow clearer in SPARQL drafts before LC, or at least before PR.
15:43:54 [mbrunati]
david: now Turtle
15:44:01 [davidwood]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-Turtle/Proposals
15:44:07 [mbrunati]
nathan:
15:44:22 [sandro]
s/nathan:/richard:
15:44:29 [AndyS]
was Richard again (+1 for all the effort)
15:44:34 [mbrunati]
thanks
15:44:40 [davidwood]
Yes, +1 to Richard
15:44:53 [SteveH]
SteveH has joined #rdf-wg
15:45:19 [mbrunati]
name graph, more work, some proposal are out of scope
15:46:26 [mbrunati]
more usable, more use cases, many different languages, special characters
15:47:14 [mbrunati]
some proposals on graph TF
15:47:18 [gavin]
+1 as it's also great for building parsers ;)
15:47:18 [mbrunati]
david:
15:47:49 [AndyS]
Can we not start with the n-triples text in RDF test cases?
15:48:15 [mbrunati]
a comment on Twitter that strongly not Turtle in RDF rec
15:49:10 [mbrunati]
we have to understand what is out of scope on the f2f
15:49:49 [mbrunati]
it's important to make ideas freely in this WG, even if someone upset and so on
15:49:50 [manu]
I don't think that we need the "!" syntax in TURTLE, either... our company has never had a need for it.
15:50:12 [gavin]
At least for Turtle task force it doesn't look like very many people are going be at the F2F :(
15:50:37 [mbrunati]
f2f on the JSON proposals, it's important to move on also
15:50:59 [manu]
+1 to get the preliminary JSON document sorted by the end of 1st F2F
15:51:22 [mbrunati]
david: what the timeline of closing out the opened issues?
15:51:53 [mbrunati]
we not have an opened issue on named graph
15:52:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.760.705.aacc
15:52:12 [sandro]
issue: What is a named graph and what should we call it?
15:52:12 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-14 - What is a named graph and what should we call it? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/14/edit .
15:52:58 [pchampin]
pchampin has joined #rdf-wg
15:53:17 [mbrunati]
david: are there other opened issues on this telecon?
15:53:25 [sandro]
issue: what is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc
15:53:25 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-15 - What is the relationship between the IRI and the triples in a dataset/quad-syntax/etc ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/15/edit .
15:54:29 [gavin]
other people have been having trouble
15:54:30 [mbrunati]
david: how to understand better what kind of documents we supposed are working on?
15:54:41 [gavin]
zakim, mute me
15:54:41 [Zakim]
gavin should now be muted
15:54:48 [davidwood]
q?
15:55:04 [mbrunati]
we have to use Turtle or not?
15:56:12 [mbrunati]
maybe it is necessary to collect on wikis periodical revisions on materials discussed
15:56:23 [mbrunati]
JSON TF now
15:56:33 [mbrunati]
manu:
15:56:35 [manu]
syntax options for JSON: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options
15:56:38 [tomayac]
+1 for nathan's work!
15:56:51 [manu]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Use_Cases
15:56:58 [davidwood]
Kudos to the JSON TF for the longest wiki page :)
15:57:00 [manu]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#RDF_in_JSON_Design_Requirements
15:57:04 [mbrunati]
collected some info on JSON syntax options, use cases, design requirements
15:57:10 [manu]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options
15:57:13 [mbrunati]
+1 for nathan's work
15:57:40 [manu]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/JSON_Syntax_Options#Syntax_Structure
15:57:46 [mbrunati]
the primary decision is
15:58:07 [mbrunati]
JSON based on triples or objects model
15:58:19 [mbrunati]
or document approach
15:58:30 [Zakim]
-OlivierCorby
15:58:52 [mbrunati]
to move forward we have to make some decision, but it's not clear how
15:59:11 [mbrunati]
maybe we have missed out some information on these proposals
15:59:20 [LeeF]
q+ to ask if we're putting the cart before the horse
15:59:29 [Zakim]
+ +33.4.92.38.aadd
15:59:58 [davidwood]
ack LeeF
15:59:58 [Zakim]
LeeF, you wanted to ask if we're putting the cart before the horse
16:00:19 [tomayac]
q+
16:00:39 [cygri]
q+
16:00:45 [mbrunati]
leef: probably we need to know what problems we try to solve
16:00:45 [AndyS]
+1 to LeeF
16:01:02 [manu]
the object-based vs. triple-based decision hints at the problem we're trying to solve.
16:01:13 [cygri]
+1 to LeeF
16:01:16 [mbrunati]
+1 manu
16:01:25 [sandro]
sandro: "make existing JSON map to RDF model" -- "make RDF easy for JSON users" -- "make json serialization of RDF"
16:01:26 [yvesr]
indeed - the answer will depend on whether we wanta full rdf serialisation or not
16:01:34 [manu]
http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON#A_primary_goal_SHOULD_be_to_build_a_human-friendly_version_of_the_serialization_for_JSON_developers
16:01:49 [sandro]
(actually, some of that was Lee)
16:01:52 [davidwood]
ack tomayac
16:02:00 [mbrunati]
tomayac:
16:02:08 [AndyS]
+1 to conflates issue with implementation
16:02:13 [yvesr]
+1
16:02:17 [sandro]
+1 at-a-glance serializations.
16:02:22 [NickH]
+1
16:02:44 [mbrunati]
maybe we not need a complete serialization on json
16:03:11 [mbrunati]
zakim, who is talking?
16:03:21 [Zakim]
mbrunati, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (19%), David_Wood (24%), +1.404.978.aaaa (19%)
16:03:23 [davidwood]
q?
16:04:04 [mbrunati]
not now
16:04:15 [mbrunati]
thanks
16:04:19 [davidwood]
ack cygri
16:04:58 [sandro]
ACTION tomayac to create and start to populate a wiki area of demo graphs with how they each look in each json proposal.
16:04:59 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-20 - Create and start to populate a wiki area of demo graphs with how they each look in each json proposal. [on Thomas Steiner - due 2011-03-23].
16:05:08 [mbrunati]
cygri: more documentation on use cases and so on...
16:05:19 [mbrunati]
triple vs object approach
16:05:56 [mbrunati]
the problem maybe is on the head of us, how to manage a triplestore from a javascript context
16:06:08 [yvesr]
although SPARQL results in JSON is probably not in our scope
16:06:28 [sandro]
cygri: some people find it important to, eg, access a triplestore without a (turtle) library. or, "i have an RDF graph and want to write it in json". or manu's thing I don't quite understand.
16:06:54 [manu]
q+ to respond to Richard.
16:06:57 [sandro]
cygri: is the motivation to add bits of annotaiton to existing json, so they can be parsed as RDF?
16:07:15 [sandro]
cygri: or do you not need migration/annotation
16:07:15 [mbrunati]
manage the existing json stuff or to generate RDF to JSON syntax
16:07:19 [davidwood]
ack manu
16:07:19 [Zakim]
manu, you wanted to respond to Richard.
16:07:22 [mbrunati]
or something else?
16:07:26 [mbrunati]
manu:
16:07:56 [cygri]
q+
16:08:09 [sandro]
manu: (1) annotation pre-existing json, and (2) take data people are emitting today (eg twitter) and understand that as RDF, by adding a "default context"
16:08:49 [mbrunati]
shall we make a json complete serialization of RDF?
16:09:00 [davidwood]
ack cygri
16:09:07 [mbrunati]
cygri:
16:09:40 [sandro]
+1 manu --- don't worry about another rdf serializaion, but DO both make it easy for json developers, AND try to including existing json data via annotations
16:10:01 [AndyS]
q+ to ask about the relationship to RDFa-WG RDF API (process Q)
16:10:05 [davidwood]
Scribe: mbrunati
16:10:12 [davidwood]
Chair: davidwood
16:11:28 [sandro]
Zakim, list attendees
16:11:28 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa,
16:11:31 [Zakim]
... David_Wood, +1.404.978.aaaa, NickH, FabGandon, +1.603.897.aabb, +1.760.705.aacc, +33.4.92.38.aadd
16:11:44 [manu]
q+ to propose a separate RDF in JSON call to work through these issues.
16:12:15 [mbrunati]
the discussion is on how to manage graphs, and all RDF stuff on JSON context,
16:12:35 [sandro]
cygri: This goal of trying to parse RDF out of existing json may be out of scope for this WG.
16:12:46 [davidwood]
ack AndyS
16:12:46 [Zakim]
AndyS, you wanted to ask about the relationship to RDFa-WG RDF API (process Q)
16:12:59 [mbrunati]
david: not enough time to complete the agenda on RDF Rec probably
16:13:25 [davidwood]
ack manu
16:13:25 [Zakim]
manu, you wanted to propose a separate RDF in JSON call to work through these issues.
16:13:26 [mbrunati]
AndyS: relations between RDF - WG and RDFa
16:13:33 [tomayac]
wondering whether the any-json-2-rdf-json wouldn't be a one-off mapping each single time. can there be a generalized approach?
16:14:34 [mbrunati]
RDFa-WG and WG RDF API correct
16:15:00 [sandro]
manu: The RDF WebApps WG will do RDFa API and RDF API.
16:15:10 [sandro]
q+
16:15:12 [mbrunati]
manu: there is a strong relation between these WG, the point is how to accomplish it?
16:15:49 [sandro]
+1 manu, make a doodle poll for a telecon time
16:15:59 [davidwood]
Sandro, do you wish to respond to Manu or address setting up a call for JSON?
16:16:03 [mbrunati]
manu: we need a separate call to make clear this misunderstanding probably
16:16:14 [davidwood]
ack sandro
16:16:16 [mbrunati]
sandro:
16:16:55 [mbrunati]
it's not clear but it take months to manage resources on it
16:16:58 [mbrunati]
david:
16:17:00 [manu]
ACTION: Manu to create a doodle poll to find a time to have a call.
16:17:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-21 - Create a doodle poll to find a time to have a call. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-23].
16:17:18 [mbrunati]
probably time is finished at this time
16:17:19 [gavin]
Regrets for the next meeting. And was the scribe. Jeremy will be here instead!
16:17:25 [mbrunati]
thanks
16:17:26 [tomayac]
bye
16:17:28 [Zakim]
-manu
16:17:30 [Zakim]
-AxelPolleres
16:17:30 [Zakim]
- +33.4.92.38.aadd
16:17:34 [Zakim]
- +3539149aaaa
16:17:35 [pchampin]
bye
16:17:35 [Zakim]
- +1.603.897.aabb
16:17:35 [Zakim]
-Tony
16:17:36 [sandro]
zakim, who is on the call?
16:17:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, Sandro, AndyS, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, FabGandon, +1.404.978.aaaa, NickH (muted), yvesr (muted), ??P49,
16:17:39 [Zakim]
... +1.760.705.aacc
16:17:39 [Zakim]
- +1.443.212.aaee
16:17:43 [LeeF]
cheers, everyone
16:17:43 [pchampin]
pchampin has left #rdf-wg
16:17:47 [Zakim]
- +1.760.705.aacc
16:17:48 [gavin]
zakim, unmute me
16:17:49 [hsbauer]
bye
16:17:49 [Zakim]
gavin was not muted, gavin
16:17:52 [Zakim]
-AndyS
16:17:52 [AlexHall]
AlexHall has left #rdf-wg
16:17:57 [Zakim]
-LeeF
16:18:08 [Zakim]
-??P49
16:18:15 [Zakim]
- +1.404.978.aaaa
16:18:24 [sandro]
zakim, who is on the call?
16:18:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see mbrunati, JFB, Sandro, gavin, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, FabGandon, NickH (muted), yvesr (muted)
16:18:28 [Zakim]
-NickH
16:18:42 [Zakim]
-FabGandon
16:19:29 [sandro]
zakim, who is on the call?
16:19:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see mbrunati, JFB, Sandro, gavin, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, yvesr (muted)
16:20:10 [AxelPolleres]
AxelPolleres has left #rdf-wg
16:20:23 [sandro]
gavin: I can't scribe next week, but jeremy will
16:20:31 [Zakim]
-gavin
16:22:23 [danbri_]
posted draft FOAF use case for named graphs in http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/4
16:22:34 [sandro]
zakim, who is on the call?
16:22:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see mbrunati, JFB, Sandro, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood, yvesr (muted)
16:22:34 [danbri_]
not sure exactly what was wanted so mostly historical, with sketch of requirements
16:22:54 [Zakim]
-yvesr
16:22:59 [Zakim]
-Sandro
16:23:00 [Zakim]
-David_Wood
16:23:00 [Zakim]
- +31.20.598.aaaa
16:23:02 [Zakim]
-JFB
16:23:04 [Zakim]
SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended
16:23:05 [Zakim]
Attendees were yvesr, mbrunati, JFB, LeeF, OlivierCorby, Sandro, AndyS, AxelPolleres, Tony, manu, gavin, +1.443.212.aaee, +3539149aaaa, +31.20.598.aaaa, David_Wood,
16:23:07 [Zakim]
... +1.404.978.aaaa, NickH, FabGandon, +1.603.897.aabb, +1.760.705.aacc, +33.4.92.38.aadd
16:25:36 [mbrunati]
rrsagent, draft minutes
16:25:37 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/16-rdf-wg-minutes.html mbrunati
16:29:08 [davidwood]
mbrunati: Thanks!
16:30:16 [mbrunati]
it's complicated, but a very cool stuff .)
16:30:17 [FabGandon]
FabGandon has left #rdf-wg
17:00:16 [mbrunati]
zakim, bye
17:00:16 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #rdf-wg
17:15:25 [danbri]
danbri has joined #rdf-wg