IRC log of sparql on 2011-03-15

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:14 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #sparql

13:56:14 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/15-sparql-irc

13:56:16 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

13:56:16 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #sparql

13:56:17 [AndyS]

LeeF, you could review all but sec 18 and factor in comments by Birte and Matt. Majority are sec 18 comments - we can process those first then you review.

13:56:18 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 77277

13:56:18 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

13:56:19 [trackbot]

Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference

13:56:19 [trackbot]

Date: 15 March 2011

13:56:26 [LeeF]

zakim, this will be SPARQL

13:56:26 [Zakim]

ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

13:56:30 [LeeF]

AndyS, thanks

13:56:34 [LeeF]

Chair: LeeF

13:56:36 [LeeF]

Scribe: Any

13:56:39 [LeeF]

Scribenick: AndyS

13:56:46 [LeeF]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-03-15

13:56:57 [Zakim]

SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

13:57:03 [LeeF]

Regrets: Axel, Alex, Chime, Paul

13:57:04 [Zakim]

+??P14

13:57:12 [SteveH]

Zakim, ??P14 is me

13:57:12 [Zakim]

+SteveH; got it

13:57:20 [Zakim]

+kasei

13:57:33 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

13:57:39 [cbuilara]

zakim, IPcaller is me

13:57:39 [Zakim]

+cbuilara; got it

13:58:05 [Zakim]

+??P18

13:58:26 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P18 is me

13:58:26 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

13:59:21 [Zakim]

+Lee_Feigenbaum

13:59:41 [LeeF]

zakim, Lee_Feigenbaum is me

13:59:41 [Zakim]

+LeeF; got it

13:59:56 [MattPerry]

MattPerry has joined #sparql

14:00:09 [LeeF]

zakim, who's on the phone?

14:00:09 [Zakim]

On the phone I see SteveH, kasei, cbuilara, AndyS, LeeF

14:00:18 [Zakim]

+??P22

14:00:29 [bglimm]

Zakim, +??P22 is me

14:00:29 [Zakim]

sorry, bglimm, I do not recognize a party named '+??P22'

14:00:39 [bglimm]

Zakim, ??P22 i sme

14:00:39 [Zakim]

I don't understand '??P22 i sme', bglimm

14:00:49 [bglimm]

member:Zakim, ??P22 is me

14:00:59 [AndyS]

Topic: Admin

14:00:59 [Zakim]

+ +1.603.897.aaaa

14:01:01 [LeeF]

zakim, ??P22 is bglimm

14:01:03 [Zakim]

+bglimm; got it

14:01:12 [MattPerry]

zakim, aaaa is me

14:01:12 [Zakim]

+MattPerry; got it

14:01:47 [LeeF]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2011-03-15

14:01:52 [LeeF]

topic: admin

14:01:55 [AndyS]

Regrets: pgearon, AlexPassant, AxelPollares

14:01:59 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-08

14:02:11 [bglimm]

Zakim, mute me

14:02:11 [Zakim]

bglimm should now be muted

14:02:26 [AndyS]

seconded

14:02:36 [LeeF]

RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2011-03-08

14:02:53 [AndyS]

LeeF: No new comments to assign

14:03:06 [LeeF]

Next regular meeting: 2011-03-22 @ 14:00 UK / 10:00 EST (scribe: Lee F) NOTE DIFFERENT TIME FOR NON-US LOCATIONS

14:03:07 [AndyS]

... Axel will do a round up next week.

14:03:26 [AndyS]

scribe next time: LeeF

14:03:38 [LeeF]

steveh at risk

14:03:48 [LeeF]

topic: to last call

14:04:14 [AndyS]

Query reviews from Birte and Matt

14:04:29 [AndyS]

... in email

14:04:37 [bglimm]

no

14:04:40 [bglimm]

I did it

14:04:58 [AndyS]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0433.html

14:05:06 [AndyS]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0436.html

14:05:28 [LeeF]

close ACTION-391

14:05:29 [trackbot]

ACTION-391 Review Query, particularly Section 18 closed

14:05:35 [AndyS]

just waiting for LeeF now :-)

14:05:50 [AndyS]

... and Axel. Spot the connection.

14:06:34 [bglimm]

Zakim, unmute me

14:06:34 [Zakim]

bglimm should no longer be muted

14:06:46 [AndyS]

AndyS update reviews http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0421.html and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0427.html

14:08:09 [LeeF]

bglimm: 2 significant issues - no connection between EXISTS/NOT EXISTS and algebra & property paths break entailment extension mechanism

14:08:17 [LeeF]

AndyS: re first, that's an omission

14:10:08 [AndyS]

... entailment doc was going to discuss entailment+prop paths -- still some discussion about what's in query doc.

14:10:31 [AndyS]

Kendal : his org is not able to review the entailment doc.

14:10:45 [AndyS]

LeeF: One view from Oracle (link?)

14:10:52 [bglimm]

I can ask Bijan, but I asked in our group here and no volunteers :-(

14:11:18 [AndyS]

... will ask semweb coord group - maybe someone from OWL2.

14:11:47 [bglimm]

I can also ask Ian whether he can think of somebody

14:12:01 [AndyS]

... do want 2 (+) reviews before LC

14:12:06 [MattPerry]

Oracle entailment review from Zhe Whu (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2011JanMar/0217.html)

14:12:11 [LeeF]

ACTION: Lee to ask for pre-last call reviews of entailment doc from SWCG and OWL WG

14:12:12 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-411 - Ask for pre-last call reviews of entailment doc from SWCG and OWL WG [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-03-22].

14:12:44 [OlivierCorby]

OlivierCorby has joined #sparql

14:12:55 [AndyS]

Topic: Actions

14:13:02 [AndyS]

None to close

14:13:06 [LeeF]

topic: Dataset protocol & service description

14:14:06 [Zakim]

+ +33.4.92.38.aabb

14:14:08 [AndyS]

Little email discussion after last telecon

14:14:20 [OlivierCorby]

zakim, aabb is me

14:14:20 [Zakim]

+OlivierCorby; got it

14:14:32 [LeeF]

PROPOSED: The SPARQL 1.1 Service Description describes endpoints that implement the SPARQL 1.1 Protocol; it does not describe URIs that respond to the SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol.

14:14:32 [Zakim]

+Sandro

14:14:36 [sandro]

(sorry I'm late)

14:14:39 [AndyS]

... proposal is therefore the minimal case that service description covers protocol, not HTTP dataset protocol

14:15:07 [AndyS]

... anyone have concerns about this approach?

14:15:11 [LeeF]

<silence>

14:15:19 [kasei]

+1

14:15:20 [Zakim]

-bglimm

14:15:38 [LeeF]

RESOLVED: The SPARQL 1.1 Service Description describes endpoints that implement the SPARQL 1.1 Protocol; it does not describe URIs that respond to the SPARQL 1.1 RDF Dataset HTTP Protocol.

14:15:54 [Zakim]

+??P11

14:16:02 [bglimm]

Zakim, ??P11 is me

14:16:02 [Zakim]

+bglimm; got it

14:16:04 [AndyS]

LeeF: Overview doc needs to point this out.

14:16:25 [AndyS]

Kasei: SD doc does not mention dataset protocol.

14:17:06 [AndyS]

LeeF: make clear statement about what is described and leave to overview doc.

14:17:25 [LeeF]

ACTION: Lee to make sure overview document is clear about (non-)relationship between service description and rdf dataset http protocol

14:17:25 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-412 - Make sure overview document is clear about (non-)relationship between service description and rdf dataset http protocol [on Lee Feigenbaum - due 2011-03-22].

14:18:29 [AndyS]

Topic: relationship bewteen URI of a graph store at which they can issue dataset protocol requests?

14:19:04 [AndyS]

LeeF: a bit unclear currently : not an issue in SPARQL 1.0 in practice,

14:19:20 [bglimm]

Zakim, mute me

14:19:20 [Zakim]

bglimm should now be muted

14:20:09 [AndyS]

SteveH: /sparql/dataset and /data/dataset

14:21:04 [AndyS]

AndyS: Fuseki uses /dataset/sparql, /dataset/update and /dataset/data (and /dataset)

14:22:37 [AndyS]

LeeF: SD assumes you have a URI to GET to start process

14:23:56 [AndyS]

LeeF: Leave as is for now there being no proposals

14:24:00 [LeeF]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2011Feb/0013.html

14:24:09 [AndyS]

Topic: More operations besides POSTing to a Graph Store

14:24:22 [LeeF]

"""

14:24:23 [LeeF]

However my comment relates to management of Datasets, not graphs. I

14:24:23 [LeeF]

think it would be useful to be able to:

14:24:23 [LeeF]

* Add/Remove Datasets

14:24:23 [LeeF]

* Add/Remove Graphs from Datasets

14:24:23 [LeeF]

The specification already discusses the addition and removal of Graphs.

14:24:25 [LeeF]

"""

14:25:26 [AndyS]

q+ to ask why point 2 isn't always covered

14:25:29 [kasei]

I don't understand what the first one means. How would you then use a new dataset if it's not a 'default' dataset?

14:26:03 [kasei]

q+ to clarify datasets vs. SD

14:26:06 [AndyS]

LeeF: We do not provide a lifecycle for datasets

14:26:09 [LeeF]

ack AndyS

14:26:09 [Zakim]

AndyS, you wanted to ask why point 2 isn't always covered

14:27:02 [AndyS]

Leigh may have a model of a set of graphs that can be assembled in datasets

14:27:23 [LeeF]

ack kasei

14:27:23 [Zakim]

kasei, you wanted to clarify datasets vs. SD

14:27:54 [AndyS]

Who's handling the comment?

14:29:20 [AndyS]

Thread for LD-3

14:30:52 [AndyS]

leeF: advice to Chime that the request isn't clear

14:31:08 [Zakim]

-bglimm

14:31:19 [LeeF]

AndyS: work in RDF WG on quads may enable Leigh's request in the future

14:31:21 [AndyS]

AndyS: Some work in RDF-WG may impact this.

14:31:38 [Zakim]

+??P5

14:31:39 [AndyS]

LeeF: will follow up with Chime.

14:31:46 [bglimm]

Zakim, ??P5 is me

14:31:46 [Zakim]

+bglimm; got it

14:32:00 [AndyS]

Topic: D-entailment canonicalization issue

14:32:41 [AndyS]

Birte: problem is that there are multiple lexical forms for the same value.

14:33:10 [AndyS]

... no specification as to whether canonicalization should be done.

14:33:36 [AndyS]

... if no canonicalization done, may get multiple answers for same value.

14:34:05 [AndyS]

... and also issue as to which datatypes are supported.

14:34:26 [AndyS]

LeeF: What is state of the art?

14:34:30 [SteveH]

silence?

14:35:07 [AndyS]

Birte: XSD numerical datatypes common

14:36:11 [LeeF]

AndyS: what about overlapping value spaces of decimal and double?

14:36:21 [LeeF]

bglimm: XSD says that the value spaces are disjoint

14:36:44 [AndyS]

LeeF: What are the options?

14:37:00 [LeeF]

http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/entailment/xmlspec.xml#id0x0fec6340

14:37:40 [LeeF]

bglimm: 1) remove D-entailment 2) require canonicalization and identify a set of datatypes

14:37:44 [AndyS]

Birte: (1) remove d-entailment (2) require canonicalization + some datatypes (3) no changes to doc

14:37:45 [LeeF]

AndyS: a fixed set of datatypes?

14:37:49 [LeeF]

bglimm: no could be extended

14:39:16 [MattPerry]

I would vote for option 2

14:40:55 [MattPerry]

Oracle does it for most xsd types

14:41:23 [MattPerry]

numeric, date, boolean, string

14:42:23 [bglimm]

OWL 2 doesn't support xsd:date, just xsd:dateTime & xsd:dateTimeStamp

14:42:54 [AndyS]

What's dateTimeStamp?

14:43:20 [AndyS]

Canoicalization is done by a few systems - they do not claim D-ent

14:43:22 [bglimm]

I would have to look it up

14:43:53 [MattPerry]

Same at Oracle, we don't say anything about D-entailment

14:44:16 [MattPerry]

just canonicalization

14:44:18 [AndyS]

AndyS: e.g. <s> <p> 1 . <s> <p> 01 .

14:44:56 [AndyS]

Birte: one triple counts for query answers

14:45:27 [bglimm]

D-Entailment includes also RDFS Entailment

14:45:55 [AndyS]

LeeF; D-ent only of interest to systems that do not canonicalize.

14:46:04 [AndyS]

.. any such systems?

14:46:38 [AndyS]

... now understand better. Take one week to survey and if too few, remove section.

14:46:45 [MattPerry]

That's fine

14:46:50 [Zakim]

-bglimm

14:47:06 [AndyS]

AndyS: Acceptable.

14:47:18 [Zakim]

+??P1

14:47:22 [AndyS]

LeeF: any other business?

14:47:26 [bglimm]

Zakim, ??P1 is me

14:47:26 [Zakim]

+bglimm; got it

14:47:41 [AndyS]

AndyS: tests?

14:48:12 [AndyS]

LeeF: some pending - maybe a "tests telecon" - some open actions on checking and extending tests.

14:49:01 [AndyS]

LeeF: Repeat for encouragement - checking does not take too long.

14:50:30 [AndyS]

LeeF: Semtech June seems a bit late for a F2F

14:50:56 [AndyS]

... could get together for impl report etc as we might be in CR

14:51:17 [MattPerry]

bye

14:51:18 [AndyS]

ADJOURNED

14:51:18 [Zakim]

-LeeF

14:51:19 [Zakim]

-Sandro

14:51:20 [Zakim]

-bglimm

14:51:22 [Zakim]

-cbuilara

14:51:24 [Zakim]

-MattPerry

14:51:24 [Zakim]

-OlivierCorby

14:51:45 [Zakim]

-kasei

14:52:22 [Zakim]

-AndyS

14:55:42 [AndyS]

rrsagent, please make logs public

15:03:41 [SteveH]

SteveH has joined #sparql

15:35:00 [Zakim]

disconnecting the lone participant, SteveH, in SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM

15:35:04 [Zakim]

SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended

15:35:06 [Zakim]

Attendees were SteveH, kasei, cbuilara, AndyS, LeeF, +1.603.897.aaaa, bglimm, MattPerry, +33.4.92.38.aabb, OlivierCorby, Sandro

15:35:31 [AndyS]

zakim, that will be all thank you

15:35:31 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'that will be all thank you', AndyS

15:35:39 [AndyS]

zakim, please leave

15:35:39 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #sparql

17:15:56 [SteveH_]

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17:31:24 [LeeF]

kasei, i'm (gasp) starting to look at the protocol document... are you around if I have some questions?

17:31:45 [kasei]

yeah, mostly

17:31:57 [kasei]

I'll try to keep one eye on irc

17:36:54 [LeeF]

kasei, thanks. first question -- terminology - is "HTTP operation" accepted terminology for the combination of an HTTP request and response? and is the proper term for the arguments to the operation "parameters" (as in "query string parameters")?

17:37:36 [kasei]

i don't know -- I think that's terminology I left in from the previous version.

17:37:48 [LeeF]

ah ok. WSDL definitely talks about operations

17:37:49 [kasei]

I *believe* that parameters is correct, though.

17:38:06 [LeeF]

i'd kind of like to either define it ourselves or move away from it and prefer requests

17:39:07 [LeeF]

there must be a standard term for an HTTP request+response though

17:39:39 [LeeF]

eh, i'll use operation and just define what we mean

17:40:57 [LeeF]

kasei, do you have a strong preference for "SPARQL Protocol" vs. "The SPARQL Protocol" ?

17:41:04 [kasei]

no

17:41:43 [LeeF]

ok, i strongly prefer "The" :)

18:02:35 [SteveH]

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