IRC log of fx on 2011-03-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:00:17 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #fx
20:00:17 [RRSAgent]
logging to
20:00:19 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
20:00:19 [Zakim]
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20:00:21 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 3983
20:00:21 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start now
20:00:22 [trackbot]
Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference
20:00:22 [trackbot]
Date: 14 March 2011
20:02:06 [smfr]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
20:02:06 [Zakim]
GA_FXTF()4:00PM has not yet started, smfr
20:02:07 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, smfr, hober, CSSWG_LogBot, heycam, fantasai, plinss, ed, TabAtkins, trackbot
20:03:02 [heycam]
Zakim, code?
20:03:02 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), heycam
20:03:40 [smfr]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
20:03:40 [Zakim]
GA_FXTF()4:00PM has not yet started, smfr
20:03:41 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, smfr, hober, CSSWG_LogBot, heycam, fantasai, plinss, ed, TabAtkins, trackbot
20:03:49 [smfr]
Zakim, are you confused by the time change?
20:03:49 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, smfr.
20:07:04 [ed]
Present: heycam, ed, smfr, rik cabanier, hober
20:07:50 [anthony_work]
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20:08:03 [ed]
Zakim, pick a victim?
20:08:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, ed.
20:08:21 [ed]
chair: erik
20:08:25 [smfr]
scribenick: smfr
20:08:45 [smfr]
Scribenick: smfr
20:08:49 [ed]
20:09:01 [smfr]
Topic: CSS Animation
20:09:02 [smfr]
20:09:47 [smfr]
anthony_work: summarizes css transitoins and animations applying to svg properties
20:09:55 [smfr]
20:10:08 [ed]
20:10:11 [smfr]
first proposal: turn all attributes into properties with the same name
20:10:12 [heycam]
20:10:15 [smfr]
(sorry heycam)
20:10:27 [smfr]
(aussies all sound the same)
20:10:45 [smfr]
controvecial to convert all attributes to properties
20:11:15 [smfr]
may end up with property name conflicts; css properties are global, so property with name 'r' is not acceptable
20:11:27 [heycam]
20:11:35 [smfr]
second proposal: new properties for attributes, but use different names
20:11:44 [smfr]
e.g. r -> circle-radius
20:12:02 [heycam]
<circle circle-radius="100"/>
20:12:24 [smfr]
but this breaks correspondence between properties and presentation attributes, so confusing
20:12:43 [smfr]
would need to define how e.g. circle-radius and r would interact
20:13:04 [smfr]
third option: add extra syntax to css transitions/animation to allow targeting attributes
20:13:09 [heycam]
20:13:46 [heycam]
20:13:54 [cabanier]
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20:14:30 [smfr]
SVG WG preferred the functional syntax in the conclusion section
20:15:05 [TabAtkins_]
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20:15:13 [anthony_work]
Present+ anthony
20:15:54 [smfr]
wouldn't be able to transition svg attributes directly in css, because you can't use attr(x) on the LHS outside the keyframes
20:16:57 [smfr]
smfr: there should be nothing special about css parsing inside of keyframes, so i don't like this proposal
20:17:16 [smfr]
smfr: functional syntax on LHS is weird
20:18:03 [smfr]
TabAtkins: points to dean's proposal in email
20:18:45 [ed]
20:19:00 [smfr]
heycam: strange to extract special meaning out of "-attr-" identifiers on the LHS
20:19:00 [ed]
20:19:32 [smfr]
heycam: prefer the second option
20:20:04 [smfr]
heycam: it's more of a wholesale change to svg to make a bunch of attributes into newly named properties
20:20:13 [cabanier]
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20:20:23 [smfr]
TabAtkins: this proposal seems similar to -attr-r
20:20:44 [ed]
Present+ TabAtkins
20:21:40 [smfr]
TabAtkins: attribute-targeting as a magic hack is untenable if general enough for transitions as well as animations
20:22:10 [smfr]
TabAtkins: OK with option 2 or -attr-
20:22:40 [smfr]
smfr: -attr may conflict with vendor prefixes
20:22:52 [smfr]
TabAtkins: could use attr- and claim it as a unique prefix
20:23:46 [smfr]
anthony_work: can you use this to apply style to content?
20:23:56 [smfr]
TabAtkins: yes
20:24:14 [ChrisL]
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20:24:20 [smfr]
TabAtkins: like setting HTML attributes which map to CSS
20:24:24 [ChrisL]
rrsagent, here
20:24:24 [RRSAgent]
20:24:32 [ChrisL]
zakim, code
20:24:32 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code', ChrisL
20:24:35 [ChrisL]
zakim, code?
20:24:35 [Zakim]
the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), ChrisL
20:24:35 [smfr]
like the normal cascade; the presentational attribute loses
20:25:24 [smfr]
(who just spoke?)
20:26:12 [ed]
Present+ CL
20:26:14 [cabanier]
is 'display' animatable?
20:27:26 [smfr]
TabAtkins: we talked about all properties being animatable
20:27:34 [smfr]
smfr: i was going to try it and see if there were perf issues
20:27:56 [smfr]
TabAtkins: there's an issue to change transiton-property default to 'none'
20:28:19 [smfr]
heycam: does it make sense to target every attribute, or only animatable ones?
20:28:40 [smfr]
heycam: don't want to modify the DOM attribute property value on animations
20:29:01 [smfr]
TabAtkins: say that only subset of attributes are mapped to properties
20:29:20 [smfr]
heycam: limit to simple values; lengths, numbers etc
20:29:45 [smfr]
heycam: we've heard concrete arguments about option 3
20:29:59 [smfr]
heycam: haven't heard technical arguments against property promotion idea
20:30:20 [smfr]
ChrisL: CSS WG doesn't like adding lots of properties, and element-specific properties
20:30:49 [smfr]
ChrisL: adding c-x and c-y properties that only apply to circles would not be liked
20:31:22 [smfr]
heycam: don't want to expand out property tables on every element
20:31:30 [smfr]
smfr: how many properties are we talking about?
20:31:32 [ed]
s/c-x and c-y/cx and cy/
20:31:48 [heycam]
20:32:02 [smfr]
heycam: about 45 new properties
20:34:37 [smfr]
heycam: roc suggested that rather than adding e.g. circle-radius and ellipse-x-radius, see where properties are similar and merge them
20:35:03 [smfr]
TabAtkins: but this list has cx, x, rx so this list hasn't been folded
20:35:52 [smfr]
TabAtkins: if implementations can only use memory for SVG elements, then the number of new properties shouldn't be an issue
20:36:14 [smfr]
heycam: was this the main objection?
20:36:19 [smfr]
ChrisL: yes
20:37:15 [smfr]
TabAtkins: do we want to go with the attr- prefix or more specialized property names
20:37:25 [smfr]
heycam: maybe don't need to decide now
20:38:03 [smfr]
heycam: x can be a single value on rect, but a list on text
20:38:20 [smfr]
heycam: so need to be careful with possibly conflicting values
20:38:31 [ed]
dx,dy has the same issue (for filters vs text elements)
20:38:36 [smfr]
TabAtkins: mostly an issue for the spec, not authors
20:39:15 [smfr]
heycam: if we go the attr- route then we could not create new presentation attributes on the elements
20:39:27 [smfr]
TabAtkins: wouldn't add new attributes even with the specialized names
20:40:03 [smfr]
heycam: what to do with SVG DOM obects like SVGAnimatedLength
20:40:17 [smfr]
TabAtkins: issue seeing the animating value from JS
20:40:31 [smfr]
heycam: SVG is interested in something easier to use than SVGAnimatedLength
20:41:30 [smfr]
action: take attr- proposal to CSS WG
20:41:30 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - take
20:41:37 [smfr]
action: TabAtkins take attr- proposal to CSS WG
20:41:37 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - TabAtkins
20:41:49 [smfr]
action: Tab take attr- proposal to CSS WG
20:41:49 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - Tab
20:41:52 [smfr]
20:42:10 [heycam]
trackbot, users?
20:42:10 [trackbot]
Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, users?'. Please refer to for help
20:42:18 [heycam]
trackbot, who do you know about?
20:42:18 [trackbot]
Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, who do you know about?'. Please refer to for help
20:42:18 [ChrisL]
trackbot, status
20:43:07 [smfr]
action: cameron to take attr- proposal to SVG WG
20:43:08 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-26 - Take attr- proposal to SVG WG [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-21].
20:43:40 [smfr]
Topic: 2D transforms spec
20:43:47 [ed]
20:44:06 [smfr]
anthony_work: made a TODO list
20:46:22 [smfr]
heycam: how do we proceed through this list?
20:46:31 [smfr]
smfr: take to email, the discuss things we need to
20:47:26 [smfr]
anthony_work: if you see issues that are easy to address, go in and edit the wiki page or let me know
20:48:13 [smfr]
smfr: what is "add IDL" for?
20:49:17 [smfr]
smfr: issue is that CSS OM is in flux, and the IDL that used to be there relied on something like CSSValues that were removed?
20:49:39 [smfr]
heycam: does transform become attr-transform?
20:49:54 [smfr]
anthony_work: was assuming it would stay as transform
20:50:25 [smfr]
anthony_work: what does this mean for the SVG animation interfaces?
20:50:45 [smfr]
anthony_work: some content uses them, we can't just drop them
20:51:29 [smfr]
heycam: we should discuss what happens with SVG DOM, and if it changes we will need IDL for it
20:51:48 [smfr]
heycam: wiki should make it clear that we won't add the CSS OM interfaces, just the SVG ones
20:52:02 [smfr]
heycam: SVG DOM interfaces could just be defined in SVG, and not in this spec
20:52:08 [smfr]
anthony_work: i like that
20:52:48 [smfr]
ed: i would like to see css matrix interface compatible with svg objects
20:54:29 [smfr]
smfr: we should strive to make a single matrix class
20:54:51 [smfr]
smfr: issue with 2d vs. 3d transform matrix
20:54:51 [ed]
s/css matrix/css2d transforms interfaces, e.g CSSMatrix/
20:54:58 [f1lt3r_bocoup]
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20:54:59 [smfr]
TabAtkins: we should start with a 4x4 matrix
20:56:08 [smfr]
smfr: you have to say what happens when you apply a 3d matrix to something that can only render 2d
20:56:23 [smfr]
TabAtkins: you can specify what happens (flatten or whatever)
20:56:41 [smfr]
anthony_work: would prefer the transform doesn't apply, to avoid behavioral differences
20:58:38 [smfr]
smfr describes issues around supporting 3d css properties but not being able to render 3d
21:00:10 [ed]
trackbot, end telcon
21:00:10 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
21:00:10 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
21:00:11 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:00:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
21:00:12 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
21:00:12 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in :
21:00:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: take attr- proposal to CSS WG [1]
21:00:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
21:00:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: TabAtkins take attr- proposal to CSS WG [2]
21:00:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
21:00:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Tab take attr- proposal to CSS WG [3]
21:00:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
21:00:12 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: cameron to take attr- proposal to SVG WG [4]
21:00:12 [RRSAgent]
recorded in