IRC log of fx on 2011-03-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:00:17 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #fx

20:00:17 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc

20:00:19 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

20:00:19 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #fx

20:00:21 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 3983

20:00:21 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see GA_FXTF()4:00PM scheduled to start now

20:00:22 [trackbot]

Meeting: CSS-SVG Task Force Teleconference

20:00:22 [trackbot]

Date: 14 March 2011

20:02:06 [smfr]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

20:02:06 [Zakim]

GA_FXTF()4:00PM has not yet started, smfr

20:02:07 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, smfr, hober, CSSWG_LogBot, heycam, fantasai, plinss, ed, TabAtkins, trackbot

20:03:02 [heycam]

Zakim, code?

20:03:02 [Zakim]

the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), heycam

20:03:40 [smfr]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

20:03:40 [Zakim]

GA_FXTF()4:00PM has not yet started, smfr

20:03:41 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, smfr, hober, CSSWG_LogBot, heycam, fantasai, plinss, ed, TabAtkins, trackbot

20:03:49 [smfr]

Zakim, are you confused by the time change?

20:03:49 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, smfr.

20:07:04 [ed]

Present: heycam, ed, smfr, rik cabanier, hober

20:07:50 [anthony_work]

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20:08:03 [ed]

Zakim, pick a victim?

20:08:03 [Zakim]

I don't understand your question, ed.

20:08:21 [ed]

chair: erik

20:08:25 [smfr]

scribenick: smfr

20:08:45 [smfr]

Scribenick: smfr

20:08:49 [ed]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0124.html

20:09:01 [smfr]

Topic: CSS Animation

20:09:02 [smfr]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation

20:09:47 [smfr]

anthony_work: summarizes css transitoins and animations applying to svg properties

20:09:55 [smfr]

s/properties/attributes

20:10:08 [ed]

s/anthony_work:/heycam:/

20:10:11 [smfr]

first proposal: turn all attributes into properties with the same name

20:10:12 [heycam]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Promoting_attributes_to_properties

20:10:15 [smfr]

(sorry heycam)

20:10:27 [smfr]

(aussies all sound the same)

20:10:45 [smfr]

controvecial to convert all attributes to properties

20:11:15 [smfr]

may end up with property name conflicts; css properties are global, so property with name 'r' is not acceptable

20:11:27 [heycam]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Introducing_new_properties

20:11:35 [smfr]

second proposal: new properties for attributes, but use different names

20:11:44 [smfr]

e.g. r -> circle-radius

20:12:02 [heycam]

<circle circle-radius="100"/>

20:12:24 [smfr]

but this breaks correspondence between properties and presentation attributes, so confusing

20:12:43 [smfr]

would need to define how e.g. circle-radius and r would interact

20:13:04 [smfr]

third option: add extra syntax to css transitions/animation to allow targeting attributes

20:13:09 [heycam]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Allowing_CSS_Transitions.2FAnimations_to_target_attributes_directly

20:13:46 [heycam]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/Talk:F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Conclusions

20:13:54 [cabanier]

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20:14:30 [smfr]

SVG WG preferred the functional syntax in the conclusion section

20:15:05 [TabAtkins_]

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20:15:13 [anthony_work]

Present+ anthony

20:15:54 [smfr]

wouldn't be able to transition svg attributes directly in css, because you can't use attr(x) on the LHS outside the keyframes

20:16:57 [smfr]

smfr: there should be nothing special about css parsing inside of keyframes, so i don't like this proposal

20:17:16 [smfr]

smfr: functional syntax on LHS is weird

20:18:03 [smfr]

TabAtkins: points to dean's proposal in email

20:18:45 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0127.html

20:19:00 [smfr]

heycam: strange to extract special meaning out of "-attr-" identifiers on the LHS

20:19:00 [ed]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-fx/2011JanMar/0128.html

20:19:32 [smfr]

heycam: prefer the second option

20:20:04 [smfr]

heycam: it's more of a wholesale change to svg to make a bunch of attributes into newly named properties

20:20:13 [cabanier]

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20:20:23 [smfr]

TabAtkins: this proposal seems similar to -attr-r

20:20:44 [ed]

Present+ TabAtkins

20:21:40 [smfr]

TabAtkins: attribute-targeting as a magic hack is untenable if general enough for transitions as well as animations

20:22:10 [smfr]

TabAtkins: OK with option 2 or -attr-

20:22:40 [smfr]

smfr: -attr may conflict with vendor prefixes

20:22:52 [smfr]

TabAtkins: could use attr- and claim it as a unique prefix

20:23:46 [smfr]

anthony_work: can you use this to apply style to content?

20:23:56 [smfr]

TabAtkins: yes

20:24:14 [ChrisL]

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20:24:20 [smfr]

TabAtkins: like setting HTML attributes which map to CSS

20:24:24 [ChrisL]

rrsagent, here

20:24:24 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc#T20-24-24

20:24:32 [ChrisL]

zakim, code

20:24:32 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'code', ChrisL

20:24:35 [ChrisL]

zakim, code?

20:24:35 [Zakim]

the conference code is 3983 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), ChrisL

20:24:35 [smfr]

like the normal cascade; the presentational attribute loses

20:25:24 [smfr]

(who just spoke?)

20:26:12 [ed]

Present+ CL

20:26:14 [cabanier]

is 'display' animatable?

20:27:26 [smfr]

TabAtkins: we talked about all properties being animatable

20:27:34 [smfr]

smfr: i was going to try it and see if there were perf issues

20:27:56 [smfr]

TabAtkins: there's an issue to change transiton-property default to 'none'

20:28:19 [smfr]

heycam: does it make sense to target every attribute, or only animatable ones?

20:28:40 [smfr]

heycam: don't want to modify the DOM attribute property value on animations

20:29:01 [smfr]

TabAtkins: say that only subset of attributes are mapped to properties

20:29:20 [smfr]

heycam: limit to simple values; lengths, numbers etc

20:29:45 [smfr]

heycam: we've heard concrete arguments about option 3

20:29:59 [smfr]

heycam: haven't heard technical arguments against property promotion idea

20:30:20 [smfr]

ChrisL: CSS WG doesn't like adding lots of properties, and element-specific properties

20:30:49 [smfr]

ChrisL: adding c-x and c-y properties that only apply to circles would not be liked

20:31:22 [smfr]

heycam: don't want to expand out property tables on every element

20:31:30 [smfr]

smfr: how many properties are we talking about?

20:31:32 [ed]

s/c-x and c-y/cx and cy/

20:31:48 [heycam]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Auckland_2011/CSS_Animation#Regular_Attributes

20:32:02 [smfr]

heycam: about 45 new properties

20:34:37 [smfr]

heycam: roc suggested that rather than adding e.g. circle-radius and ellipse-x-radius, see where properties are similar and merge them

20:35:03 [smfr]

TabAtkins: but this list has cx, x, rx so this list hasn't been folded

20:35:52 [smfr]

TabAtkins: if implementations can only use memory for SVG elements, then the number of new properties shouldn't be an issue

20:36:14 [smfr]

heycam: was this the main objection?

20:36:19 [smfr]

ChrisL: yes

20:37:15 [smfr]

TabAtkins: do we want to go with the attr- prefix or more specialized property names

20:37:25 [smfr]

heycam: maybe don't need to decide now

20:38:03 [smfr]

heycam: x can be a single value on rect, but a list on text

20:38:20 [smfr]

heycam: so need to be careful with possibly conflicting values

20:38:31 [ed]

dx,dy has the same issue (for filters vs text elements)

20:38:36 [smfr]

TabAtkins: mostly an issue for the spec, not authors

20:39:15 [smfr]

heycam: if we go the attr- route then we could not create new presentation attributes on the elements

20:39:27 [smfr]

TabAtkins: wouldn't add new attributes even with the specialized names

20:40:03 [smfr]

heycam: what to do with SVG DOM obects like SVGAnimatedLength

20:40:17 [smfr]

TabAtkins: issue seeing the animating value from JS

20:40:31 [smfr]

heycam: SVG is interested in something easier to use than SVGAnimatedLength

20:41:30 [smfr]

action: take attr- proposal to CSS WG

20:41:30 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - take

20:41:37 [smfr]

action: TabAtkins take attr- proposal to CSS WG

20:41:37 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - TabAtkins

20:41:49 [smfr]

action: Tab take attr- proposal to CSS WG

20:41:49 [trackbot]

Sorry, couldn't find user - Tab

20:41:52 [smfr]

darn

20:42:10 [heycam]

trackbot, users?

20:42:10 [trackbot]

Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, users?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

20:42:18 [heycam]

trackbot, who do you know about?

20:42:18 [trackbot]

Sorry, heycam, I don't understand 'trackbot, who do you know about?'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

20:42:18 [ChrisL]

trackbot, status

20:43:07 [smfr]

action: cameron to take attr- proposal to SVG WG

20:43:08 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-26 - Take attr- proposal to SVG WG [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-21].

20:43:40 [smfr]

Topic: 2D transforms spec

20:43:47 [ed]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/FX-Taskforce/2DTransformsToDoList

20:44:06 [smfr]

anthony_work: made a TODO list

20:46:22 [smfr]

heycam: how do we proceed through this list?

20:46:31 [smfr]

smfr: take to email, the discuss things we need to

20:47:26 [smfr]

anthony_work: if you see issues that are easy to address, go in and edit the wiki page or let me know

20:48:13 [smfr]

smfr: what is "add IDL" for?

20:49:17 [smfr]

smfr: issue is that CSS OM is in flux, and the IDL that used to be there relied on something like CSSValues that were removed?

20:49:39 [smfr]

heycam: does transform become attr-transform?

20:49:54 [smfr]

anthony_work: was assuming it would stay as transform

20:50:25 [smfr]

anthony_work: what does this mean for the SVG animation interfaces?

20:50:45 [smfr]

anthony_work: some content uses them, we can't just drop them

20:51:29 [smfr]

heycam: we should discuss what happens with SVG DOM, and if it changes we will need IDL for it

20:51:48 [smfr]

heycam: wiki should make it clear that we won't add the CSS OM interfaces, just the SVG ones

20:52:02 [smfr]

heycam: SVG DOM interfaces could just be defined in SVG, and not in this spec

20:52:08 [smfr]

anthony_work: i like that

20:52:48 [smfr]

ed: i would like to see css matrix interface compatible with svg objects

20:54:29 [smfr]

smfr: we should strive to make a single matrix class

20:54:51 [smfr]

smfr: issue with 2d vs. 3d transform matrix

20:54:51 [ed]

s/css matrix/css2d transforms interfaces, e.g CSSMatrix/

20:54:58 [f1lt3r_bocoup]

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20:54:59 [smfr]

TabAtkins: we should start with a 4x4 matrix

20:56:08 [smfr]

smfr: you have to say what happens when you apply a 3d matrix to something that can only render 2d

20:56:23 [smfr]

TabAtkins: you can specify what happens (flatten or whatever)

20:56:41 [smfr]

anthony_work: would prefer the transform doesn't apply, to avoid behavioral differences

20:58:38 [smfr]

smfr describes issues around supporting 3d css properties but not being able to render 3d

21:00:10 [ed]

trackbot, end telcon

21:00:10 [trackbot]

Zakim, list attendees

21:00:10 [Zakim]

sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

21:00:11 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, please draft minutes

21:00:11 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-minutes.html trackbot

21:00:12 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, bye

21:00:12 [RRSAgent]

I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-actions.rdf :

21:00:12 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: take attr- proposal to CSS WG [1]

21:00:12 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc#T20-41-30

21:00:12 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: TabAtkins take attr- proposal to CSS WG [2]

21:00:12 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc#T20-41-37

21:00:12 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Tab take attr- proposal to CSS WG [3]

21:00:12 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc#T20-41-49

21:00:12 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: cameron to take attr- proposal to SVG WG [4]

21:00:12 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/03/14-fx-irc#T20-43-07