14:53:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcg
14:53:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/11-hcg-irc
14:53:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
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14:53:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HTML_CG
14:53:49 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see HTML_CG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes
14:53:50 <trackbot> Meeting: Hypertext Coordination Group Teleconference
14:53:50 <trackbot> Date: 11 March 2011
15:00:25 <ddahl> ddahl has joined #hcg
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15:01:31 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
15:01:31 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
15:01:32 <Zakim> HTML_CG()10:00AM has now started
15:01:32 <Zakim> +Steven
15:01:36 <Zakim> + +1.443.837.aaaa
15:01:38 <Zakim> +Debbie_Dahl
15:02:06 <Zakim> + +39.524.9.aabb
15:02:15 <ChrisL> zakim, +39 is me
15:02:15 <Zakim> +ChrisL; got it
15:03:42 <ArtB> ArtB has joined #hcg
15:03:42 <Bert> Bert has joined #hcg
15:03:55 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
15:04:02 <Zakim> +Bert
15:05:28 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
15:05:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see Steven, +1.443.837.aaaa, Debbie_Dahl, ChrisL, Bert
15:05:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see Bert, ArtB, ChrisL, ddahl, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, plinss, ed, trackbot
15:05:37 <ChrisL> Art, are you calling in?
15:05:37 <janina> janina has joined #hcg
15:05:46 <janina> zakim, code?
15:05:46 <Zakim> the conference code is 4824 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), janina
15:05:48 <Zakim> +Art_Barstow
15:06:23 <Zakim> +??P14
15:06:29 <Steven> zakim, aaaa is Kurt_Cagle
15:06:29 <Zakim> +Kurt_Cagle; got it
15:06:31 <janina> zakim, ??P14 is janina
15:06:31 <Zakim> +janina; got it
15:07:11 <ChrisL> volunteer for minutes, please?
15:07:25 <ChrisL> todays callwill have public minutes
15:08:08 <ChrisL> s/callwill/call will/
15:08:53 <ddahl> scribe: ddahl
15:08:59 <ddahl> chair: ChrisL
15:09:06 <ddahl> topic: XBL
15:09:44 <ArtB> AB: as I mentioned on the HCG list, earlier this week I started a thread about moving XBL forward <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2011JanMar/0874.html>
15:10:03 <ArtB> AB: in that e-mail I asked 4 questions, some of them intentionally provocative: 
15:10:36 <ArtB> [[
15:10:36 <ArtB> * What is the latest implementation status of the XBL2 CR [XBL2-CR] and Hixie's September 2010 version [XBL-ED] (previously referred to as "XBL2-cutdown")?
15:10:36 <ArtB> * Which members of WebApps want to continue with the XML-based version of XBL2 as codified in the XBL2 CR? If you are in this group, what firm commitments can you make to push the spec along the REC track? Would you object to the Forms WG taking over this spec?
15:10:36 <ArtB> * Which members of WebApps want to continue with the non-XML version as Hixie created last September? If you are in this group, what firm commitments can you make to push this version along the REC track (especially implementation)?
15:10:39 <ArtB> * Should the WG pursue Dimitri Glazkov's Component Model proposal [Component]? If yes, who is willing to commit to work on that spec?
15:10:42 <ArtB> ]]
15:10:47 <Zakim> -Kurt_Cagle
15:11:03 <Zakim> +Kurt_Cagle
15:11:46 <ArtB> I would summarize the responses as follows, noting there have only been a few days to comment:
15:11:57 <ArtB> * XBL2-CR - Olli Petty (Mozilla) said he wants XBL2 work to continue (Mozilla previously announced they had done some XBL2 implementation work) and he objects to it moving to the Forms WG. Anne van Kesteren (Opera) expressed some concerns about XBL2's complexity. Tab Atkins (Google; Chrome/WebKit) said XBL2 is "flawed" and he objects to continuing work on it. Ian Hickson (Google; Editor of XBL2) said he has no objections to someone continuing XBL2 and he expects XB
15:13:52 <ddahl> art: Ian Hickson expects XBL to end up in HTML
15:14:38 <ddahl> ...no one was interested in the cutdown model, there was interest in continuing the component model, Dmitri volunteered to edit the spec
15:14:39 <ArtB> AB: that's a quick summary and before I turn over the mic, I would like to note that a whole lot has changed in the Web industry and W3C since work on XBL2 was started over five years ago. As such, I think it makes sense for WebApps to start work on the CM approach. However, I also think we need to be sensitive to the past investments in XBL2, especially since it has already been published as a CR.
15:16:29 <ddahl> kurt: a couple of questions. the Forms WG has been looking at implications of XBL for XForms. With the XBL2 approach, what impact would that have on XForms?
15:17:09 <ddahl> ...we were looking at impact of namespaces
15:17:19 <ddahl> steven: XBL2 has namespaces
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15:17:44 <ddahl> art: there's no interest in pursuing the editor's draft of XBL2 from last September
15:17:45 <Zakim> +Plh
15:17:51 <ddahl> ...within WebApps
15:18:19 <ddahl> steven: XForms is interested in an XBL2 solution
15:18:35 <ddahl> art: wants to separate XBL2 from cutdown
15:18:52 <ddahl> steven: cutdown from September doesn't cut it for us
15:19:14 <ddahl> chris: to clarify, there are two implementations that use XBL "of some sort"?
15:20:20 <ddahl> steven: not sure of details. Albion (??) says that they use the parts that are of interest to them. CSS isn't that useful. They do some juggling between XPath and CSS.
15:20:34 <ddahl> ...the other implementation tries to use the Mozilla implementation when it can
15:21:00 <ddahl> chris: it probably means that there's not enough implementation to get XBL out of CR
15:22:00 <ddahl> art: there's not a test suite. if we were to prioritize the 20 or so specs that we're working on, in my opinion, XBL2 would be a low priority. there hasn't been that much discussion
15:22:23 <ddahl> ...there are some people very interested in the component model. 
15:23:03 <ddahl> steven: how did this happen? you've inherited this spec, but there's no enthusiam. what's the history?
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15:24:09 <ddahl> art: the Web Applications Format WG, chartered in 2006, was working on it. The CR was published at the beginning of 2007, e.g. work on HTML5 and WebAPI. People have diverted their efforts to other specs.
15:24:26 <ddahl> ...2007 assumptions don't hold water anymore.
15:24:40 <ddahl> kurt: is component model independent of XBL?
15:24:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:25:09 <ddahl> ...Forms WG wants a consistent language for component-level scripting
15:25:43 <ddahl> art: the discussion is still pretty high level, at the use case level.
15:25:50 <ArtB> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Component_Model_Use_Cases
15:26:30 <ddahl> ...is that work within scope of the charter that we have now? There are a lot of TBD's about W3C would move forward.
15:27:03 <ddahl> chris: existing XBL2 is completely stalled
15:27:25 <ddahl> philippe: not clear that there's enough interest, just 1-2 people, for Rec-track work?
15:27:41 <ddahl> art: is XBL of enough interest to the Forms community to move it forward
15:28:12 <ddahl> steven: there is interest, it's possible, the problem is CSS Selectors. we could discuss it. the problem is manpower more than anything.
15:28:33 <ddahl> kurt: I would be interested in working on this
15:29:04 <ddahl> art: that's good to know, the real question is whether there's commitment, not just interest.
15:29:15 <ddahl> philippe: move XBL to Forms?
15:29:30 <ddahl> chris: will it move forward?
15:30:03 <ddahl> steven: Forms would cut it down to what's used in XForms and they say there are implementations
15:30:33 <ddahl> philippe: that sounds like a good solution, take the spec, rename it and push forward with the features you need
15:31:14 <ddahl> art: would wait to have discussion in WebApps until Forms makes a commitment to moving it forward in Forms
15:31:40 <ddahl> steven: I think there's a good chance of this. we have some form of implementations, so it shouldn't be too much work
15:31:52 <ddahl> philippe: we should rename the specification
15:32:01 <ddahl> chris: there have already been too many names
15:32:14 <ddahl> art: only Mozilla objects to it moving
15:32:36 <ddahl> ...they didn't say why
15:32:53 <ddahl> philippe: if we rename it and cut it down, it might be ok
15:33:10 <ddahl> chris: sounds like a plan, subject to Forms WG agreeing to do that
15:34:04 <ddahl> philippe: for Component Model in WebApps, if Dimitri wants to work on it
15:34:13 <ddahl> ...they can do that
15:34:31 <ddahl> topic: last calls
15:34:32 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:34:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/11-hcg-minutes.html ArtB
15:34:49 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
15:34:56 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:34:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/11-hcg-minutes.html ArtB
15:34:57 <plh> plh: for the component model, it will take more than two individuals to support the work in order to change the charter
15:35:22 <ddahl> chris: compositing spec LC should be published next week
15:35:42 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
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15:36:00 <Zakim> -Steven
15:36:02 <Zakim> -janina
15:36:02 <Zakim> -ChrisL
15:36:03 <Zakim> -Kurt_Cagle
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15:36:05 <Zakim> -Plh
15:36:05 <Zakim> -Debbie_Dahl
15:36:07 <Zakim> -darobin
15:36:07 <ddahl> ... also note that this call will be an hour earlier for people in Europe next time
15:36:14 <ddahl> rrsagent, format minutes
15:36:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/11-hcg-minutes.html ddahl
15:36:16 <Zakim> -Bert
15:36:17 <Zakim> HTML_CG()10:00AM has ended
15:36:19 <Zakim> Attendees were Steven, +1.443.837.aaaa, Debbie_Dahl, +39.524.9.aabb, ChrisL, Bert, Art_Barstow, Kurt_Cagle, janina, Plh, darobin
15:42:37 <ddahl> zakim, who is here?
15:42:37 <Zakim> apparently HTML_CG()10:00AM has ended, ddahl
15:42:38 <Zakim> On IRC I see plh, Bert, ChrisL, ddahl, Zakim, RRSAgent, Steven, plinss, ed, trackbot
15:43:09 <ddahl> does anyone know how to add the attendees after the call is over?
15:43:34 <ChrisL> rrsagent should pick up the attendees line that zakim spat out, if you regen the minutes
15:43:39 <ChrisL> rrsagent,make minutes
15:43:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/11-hcg-minutes.html ChrisL
15:44:01 <ChrisL> yes, it did
15:44:17 <ddahl> great, thanks
15:45:39 <ddahl> but not in the text version???
15:46:36 <ddahl> I guess that's ok, as long as they're in the HTML version
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