IRC log of ua on 2011-03-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:52:26 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:52:26 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/10-ua-irc
17:52:28 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:52:28 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:52:30 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:52:30 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
17:52:31 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:52:31 [trackbot]
Date: 10 March 2011
17:54:33 [jallan]
jallan has joined #ua
17:55:50 [jallan]
zakim, agenda?
17:55:50 [Zakim]
I see nothing on the agenda
17:57:22 [jallan]
Agenda+ wrap-up Action-503 & Action-504
17:57:35 [jallan]
Agenda+ wrap-up Action-501 - Simon Create intent for Guideline 2.8
17:57:49 [jallan]
Agenda+ Action-491 - Rewrite 1.8.5
17:58:08 [jallan]
Agenda+ Writing EIR 2.9.3 Execution Placeholder
17:58:31 [jallan]
Agenda+ Writing EIR 2.9.4 Execution Toggle
17:58:59 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:00:01 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
18:00:16 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
18:00:23 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
18:00:24 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:00:33 [kford]
zakim, code
18:00:33 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'code', kford
18:00:37 [kford]
zakim, clde?
18:00:37 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, kford.
18:00:41 [kford]
zakim code?
18:00:52 [kford]
zakim, code?
18:00:52 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), kford
18:00:52 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
18:00:54 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), jeanne
18:00:59 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.895.aaaa
18:01:07 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
18:01:10 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:01:17 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
18:01:17 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
18:02:40 [jallan]
zakim, who is here?
18:02:40 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jim_Allan, Jeanne, +1.425.895.aaaa, kford
18:02:42 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Greg, kford, sharper, jallan, Zakim, RRSAgent, jeanne, trackbot
18:02:43 [Zakim]
+??P10
18:02:57 [Greg]
zakim, aaaa is me
18:02:57 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
18:03:23 [Zakim]
-??P10
18:03:36 [kford]
zakim, mute kford
18:03:36 [Zakim]
kford should now be muted
18:03:45 [jallan]
regrets+ MarkH, KimP
18:03:53 [kford]
zakim, unmute kford
18:03:53 [Zakim]
kford should no longer be muted
18:04:07 [kford]
zakim, mute kford
18:04:07 [Zakim]
kford should now be muted
18:04:16 [kford]
Scribe: kford
18:04:25 [kford]
rrsagent, amke minutes
18:04:25 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'amke minutes', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help
18:04:34 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/10-ua-minutes.html kford
18:04:46 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:04:46 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:04:47 [Zakim]
1. wrap-up Action-503 & Action-504 [from jallan]
18:04:49 [Zakim]
2. wrap-up Action-501 - Simon Create intent for Guideline 2.8 [from jallan]
18:04:50 [Zakim]
3. Action-491 - Rewrite 1.8.5 [from jallan]
18:04:52 [Zakim]
4. Writing EIR 2.9.3 Execution Placeholder [from jallan]
18:04:54 [Zakim]
5. Writing EIR 2.9.4 Execution Toggle [from jallan]
18:05:10 [kford]
zakim, unmute kford
18:05:10 [Zakim]
kford should no longer be muted
18:05:12 [Zakim]
+??P12
18:05:27 [sharper]
zakim, ??P12 is sharper
18:05:27 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:05:33 [sharper]
present+ sharper
18:06:44 [jallan]
regrets+ JanR
18:06:57 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:06:57 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/10-ua-minutes.html kford
18:07:11 [kford]
zakim, take up item 1
18:07:11 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "wrap-up Action-503 & Action-504" taken up [from jallan]
18:07:33 [kford]
JA: I want to spend a little time on these and then let our reviews discuss.
18:08:12 [kford]
JA: I sent to the list. Any read, let's discuss.
18:08:52 [jallan]
503 - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0079.html
18:09:13 [jeanne]
501 - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0078.html
18:09:20 [jallan]
504 - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0080.html
18:10:38 [kford]
Topic: 503
18:11:08 [kford]
GL: Might be good to arrange intent with a why and then a how.
18:11:12 [Greg]
An interesting contrast is that the draft 508 refresh gives the choice of either allowing the user to prevent or pause autostart media.
18:11:13 [Greg]
I'd also start with Why, then go on to How.
18:12:04 [jeanne]
action: Jeanne to post change of 503 to 2.9.2 changing the "why" to come before the "how". Refer to email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0079.html
18:12:04 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-515 - Post change of 503 to 2.9.2 changing the "why" to come before the "how". Refer to email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0079.html [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2011-03-17].
18:14:05 [kford]
JA: Any other issues on 503?
18:14:58 [sharper]
There may times -> There may be times
18:15:13 [sharper]
2nd Para intent
18:15:24 [kford]
Topic: 504
18:16:28 [sharper]
+1
18:17:03 [kford]
GL: I think most people will not understand the second paragraph about multilayer rendering.
18:18:42 [Greg]
In the W3 technicalese there might be a distinction between content over a base-canvas image vs. a multi-layer rendering, but it's not obvious at all.
18:18:47 [kford]
SH: I think it is good and we can get feedback if people do not understand it.
18:19:35 [Greg]
It would be nice to prefix it with a sentence in plain English.
18:20:19 [Greg]
In the example, the word "not" is written as "hot".
18:20:20 [jeanne]
action: jeanne to update 2.9.1 with text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0080.html and fix typos
18:20:20 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-516 - Update 2.9.1 with text from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0080.html and fix typos [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2011-03-17].
18:20:57 [kford]
Topic: 501
18:22:12 [kford]
Topic: 501
18:24:13 [kford]
JA: can we have one SC that talks about toolbar and components instead of two separate?
18:24:26 [kford]
SH: I think we should have one.
18:25:00 [kford]
GL: If we combine they need to be at the same priority and it makes compliance a bit harder because the failure possibilities are greater.
18:25:36 [Greg]
I am concerned about the phrase "from a predefined set", as it sounds like it could prohibit the user from adding their own custom controls, and that "configure the position" could be taken as meaning finely and arbitrarily adjusting the position (as with icons on the OS X desktop). It seems that what we want to require is that the user can, at minimum, "add, remove, and reorder the...
18:25:38 [Greg]
...available controls" on a toolbar or similar container.
18:26:37 [jallan]
+1 reorder available controls
18:28:51 [kford]
No objections to add/remove and rreorder
18:29:23 [Greg]
Suggest replacing "toolbar, panel, inspector, configuration" with "toolbars and similar containers".
18:31:01 [jallan]
action: jallan to rewrite 1.8.5 using simons stuff, gregs comments, and include whole toolbars as well as components
18:31:01 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-517 - Rewrite 1.8.5 using simons stuff, gregs comments, and include whole toolbars as well as components [on Jim Allan - due 2011-03-17].
18:31:14 [jallan]
zakim, agenda
18:31:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'agenda', jallan
18:31:15 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:31:15 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
18:31:17 [Zakim]
1. wrap-up Action-503 & Action-504 [from jallan]
18:31:19 [Zakim]
2. wrap-up Action-501 - Simon Create intent for Guideline 2.8 [from jallan]
18:31:21 [Zakim]
3. Action-491 - Rewrite 1.8.5 [from jallan]
18:31:23 [Zakim]
4. Writing EIR 2.9.3 Execution Placeholder [from jallan]
18:31:24 [Zakim]
5. Writing EIR 2.9.4 Execution Toggle [from jallan]
18:31:28 [jallan]
zakim, close item 1
18:31:28 [Zakim]
agendum 1, wrap-up Action-503 & Action-504, closed
18:31:29 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:31:31 [Zakim]
2. wrap-up Action-501 - Simon Create intent for Guideline 2.8 [from jallan]
18:31:37 [kford]
zakim, close item 1
18:31:37 [Zakim]
agendum 1, wrap-up Action-503 & Action-504, closed
18:31:38 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:31:39 [Zakim]
2. wrap-up Action-501 - Simon Create intent for Guideline 2.8 [from jallan]
18:31:43 [kford]
zakim, close item 2
18:31:43 [Zakim]
agendum 2, wrap-up Action-501 - Simon Create intent for Guideline 2.8, closed
18:31:45 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:31:47 [Zakim]
3. Action-491 - Rewrite 1.8.5 [from jallan]
18:32:11 [kford]
zakim, take up item 3
18:32:11 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Action-491 - Rewrite 1.8.5" taken up [from jallan]
18:32:29 [kford]
JA: I'd like to get some clarification on this one.
18:32:46 [kford]
I had rewrittent his one because we had discusson about exclusions.
18:32:58 [kford]
JA: Then we talked about should we require a back button or not?
18:33:26 [kford]
JA: Do we want to require a gback button?
18:33:35 [kford]
GL: Yes.
18:33:51 [kford]
JS: I'm inclined not to but will go with the group.
18:34:05 [kford]
SH: Every browser has one.
18:34:18 [kford]
JS: What about other browsers, media players and more.
18:34:32 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aabb
18:35:18 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:35:30 [jallan]
add where it makes sense to navigate content in sequence
18:35:45 [kford]
Present+Kim
18:35:52 [jallan]
zakim, aabb is really KimPatch
18:35:52 [Zakim]
+KimPatch; got it
18:35:57 [kford]
KFord: I'm inclined to say yes on this.
18:36:50 [kford]
GL: Jeanne on your concern it might be that the back is based on a URI so a virtual world would be just one URI.
18:40:33 [kford]
zakim, close item 3
18:40:33 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Action-491 - Rewrite 1.8.5, closed
18:40:34 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:40:36 [Zakim]
4. Writing EIR 2.9.3 Execution Placeholder [from jallan]
18:40:43 [kford]
zakim, take up item 4
18:40:43 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Writing EIR 2.9.3 Execution Placeholder" taken up [from jallan]
18:41:17 [kford]
zakim, close item 3
18:41:17 [Zakim]
agendum 3, Action-491 - Rewrite 1.8.5, closed
18:41:19 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:41:21 [Zakim]
4. Writing EIR 2.9.3 Execution Placeholder [from jallan]
18:41:24 [kford]
zakim, take up item 4
18:41:24 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Writing EIR 2.9.3 Execution Placeholder" taken up [from jallan]
18:41:36 [jallan]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2011/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20110202/#gl-control-inaccessible-content
18:41:58 [jallan]
2.9.3 (former 4.9.3) Execution Placeholder: The user can render a placeholder instead of executable content that would normally be contained within an on-screen area (e.g., Applet, Flash), until explicit user request to execute. (Level A)
18:44:05 [kford]
Intent:
18:44:08 [kford]
Some web content can be very distracting to users with disabilities. It may disrput attention, move focus or otherwise cause the user to not be able to interact with a web page effectively.
18:44:25 [Greg]
This is similar to being able to stop autoplay media, and so maybe you can reuse some language from that.
18:44:43 [kford]
Intent:
18:44:44 [kford]
Some web content can be very distracting to users with disabilities. It may disrput attention, move focus or otherwise cause the user to not be able to interact with a web page effectively.
18:48:22 [kford]
JA: Are 2.9.2 and 2.9.3 unique enough to be separate?
18:51:19 [kford]
Group continuing to talk about this question.
18:52:04 [kford]
JA: Does it matter to me that there's a flash movie sits there with the first frame with a play button versus requiring that the UA puts something else in place with a play button.
18:56:12 [Greg]
I'd say the three requirements for a placeholder are that (a) it take up the same space as the thing it's replacing, (b) it informs the user that there is something waiting for them to start it, and (c) it is not animated or playing sound.
18:58:30 [Greg]
If as Jeanne suggests the user agent may not always know the size of the media or executable (e.g. it could resize itself when started), we can omit from the SC and include as a recommended best practice in the Intent document that the user agent make the placeholder take up the same space as the item it is replacing, to the best of its ability.
18:59:02 [kford]
JA: Any objections to combining these two SC?
18:59:11 [kford]
None heard.
19:00:20 [kford]
KP: I like saying it should take the same space it is replacing. How special case is this? For someone with RSI paing is tedious. If the user doesn't want to playthe movies, just see the titles it would be nice if this could e collapsed.
19:02:08 [Greg]
Draft: "2.9.2 Media and Execution Placeholders: The user can have placeholders rendered instead of any time-based media or executable content that would normally be contained in an on-screen area (e.g. video, applet, or Flash), until explicit user request. (Level A)"
19:02:21 [Greg]
Then in the Intent we give examples of the placeholder for a video being the poster attribute for the video or, if none is provided, the first frame, with an overlayed Play button.
19:02:24 [jallan]
discussion of collapsable content, should be up to the author and good design.
19:03:20 [jallan]
2.9.4 (former 4.9.4) Execution Toggle: The user can turn on/off the execution of executable content that would not normally be contained within a particular area (e.g., Javascript). (Level A)
19:04:15 [Greg]
Unfortunately my draft had a problem: it fails to address autoplay audio, which isn't contained in an on-screen area.
19:08:38 [kford]
JA: Looking at 2.92-4, do we want one global SC here?
19:08:58 [kford]
JA: The other SC is that something as a placeholder is rendered.
19:12:55 [jallan]
action: jallan to combine 2.9.2-4 into 1 sc with IER
19:12:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-518 - Combine 2.9.2-4 into 1 sc with IER [on Jim Allan - due 2011-03-17].
19:13:26 [Greg]
Another draft: "2.9.2 Media and Execution Placeholders: The user can override the play on load of recognized time-based media and executable content so that the user the user is informed that something is paused (e.g. by a placeholder), and the content is not started until explicit user request. (Level A)"
19:14:08 [Greg]
>Another draft: "2.9.2 Media and Execution Placeholders: The user can override the play on load of recognized time-based media and executable content so that the user the user is informed that something is paused (e.g. by a placeholder overlayed with a Play icon), and the content is not started until explicit user request. (Level A)"
19:14:25 [kford_]
kford_ has joined #ua
19:14:41 [kford_]
zakim, close item 4
19:14:41 [Zakim]
agendum 4, Writing EIR 2.9.3 Execution Placeholder, closed
19:14:42 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
19:14:43 [Zakim]
5. Writing EIR 2.9.4 Execution Toggle [from jallan]
19:15:15 [kford_]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:15:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/10-ua-minutes.html kford_
19:16:18 [kford]
Group talking about assigning work.
19:16:35 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:16:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/10-ua-minutes.html kford
19:18:25 [kford]
Present:Jim, Jeanne, Greg, Simon, Kelly
19:18:34 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:18:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/10-ua-minutes.html kford
19:18:54 [kford]
Chair: Jim_Allan
19:19:05 [jallan]
action: simon to write IER for 2.7.x as needed
19:19:05 [trackbot]
Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - simon
19:19:05 [trackbot]
Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. sharper, spieters)
19:19:21 [jallan]
action: sharper to write IER for 2.7.x as needed
19:19:21 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-519 - Write IER for 2.7.x as needed [on Simon Harper - due 2011-03-17].
19:19:42 [kford]
Present+Kim
19:20:05 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:20:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/10-ua-minutes.html kford
19:21:22 [Zakim]
-KimPatch
19:21:25 [Zakim]
-sharper
19:21:31 [Zakim]
-Greg
19:24:38 [Zakim]
-kford
19:31:53 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
19:31:58 [Zakim]
-Jeanne
19:32:00 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:32:02 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jim_Allan, Jeanne, +1.425.895.aaaa, kford, Greg, sharper, +1.617.325.aabb, KimPatch
21:34:19 [jeanne]
jeanne has left #ua