13:48:32 RRSAgent has joined #poiwg 13:48:32 logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/03/09-poiwg-irc 13:48:34 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:48:34 Zakim has joined #poiwg 13:48:36 Zakim, this will be UW_POI 13:48:37 zakim, ping me in 11 minutes 13:48:37 ok, trackbot; I see UW_POI(POIWG)9:00AM scheduled to start in 12 minutes 13:48:37 Meeting: Points of Interest Working Group Teleconference 13:48:37 Date: 09 March 2011 13:48:38 ok, matt 13:48:54 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-poiwg/2011Mar/0004 13:48:56 Regrets: Jens 13:52:52 vinod has joined #poiwg 13:54:43 karls has joined #poiwg 13:56:21 UW_POI(POIWG)9:00AM has now started 13:56:28 +Matt 13:58:08 +vinod 13:58:19 Present+ Vinod 13:58:44 Chair: Matt 13:59:30 + +1.312.894.aaaa 13:59:38 matt, you asked to be pinged at this time 13:59:41 zakim, aaaa is karls 13:59:41 +karls; got it 14:00:46 i did draft the category primitive, still generating representative examples today, will pub via email tonight 14:01:14 Luca has joined #poiwg 14:01:50 welcome 14:01:53 Ronald has joined #poiwg 14:01:54 ahill2 has joined #poiwg 14:02:15 cperey has joined #poiwg 14:02:36 +Luca 14:02:45 Present+ Luca 14:02:47 + +1.617.848.aabb 14:03:10 zakim, luca is Ronald 14:03:10 +Ronald; got it 14:03:16 zakim, aabb is cperey 14:03:16 +cperey; got it 14:03:20 +??P27 14:03:22 zakim, who is on the phone? 14:03:22 On the phone I see Matt, vinod, karls, Ronald, cperey, ??P27 14:03:30 zakim, ??p27 is ahill2 14:03:30 +ahill2; got it 14:03:43 +Ronald.a 14:03:55 zakim, Ronald.a is Luca 14:03:55 +Luca; got it 14:03:59 zakim, who is here? 14:03:59 On the phone I see Matt, vinod, karls, Ronald, cperey, ahill2, Luca 14:04:32 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-poiwg/2011Mar/0004 Agenda 14:05:05 Scribe: ahill2 14:05:14 i have to exit after 1/2 H, sorry 14:05:57 Topic: ID Primitive 14:06:03 matt: lets do id talk first since Karl has to leave soon 14:06:04 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2011Feb/0028 ID Primitive 14:07:42 ahill2: In the discussion it all sounds very reasonable, about an ID primitive. My only concern: does a URI go against the grain of efficiency, and against what people are thinking of with IDs. 14:08:25 zakim, who is noisy? 14:08:37 matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ahill2 (4%), cperey (27%) 14:08:48 sorry mute myself 14:09:09 +q 14:09:56 karls: URIs helps protect us from clashing IDs. The same model should be used for both places and locations though. 14:09:58 ack cperey 14:10:15 matt, I've got it 14:10:32 q+ 14:10:43 ack next 14:10:43 +1 to cperey 14:10:52 +1 14:11:03 christine: certainly other groups have have tackled this issue; seems a bit premature for the 5 of use to weigh in solidly 14:11:03 definitely do not have the knowledge in this domain 14:11:28 I know that for personal identity there are hundreds of people who work on it continuously 14:11:32 matt: the web is an existing system of decentralized system of identifiers and is working pretty well 14:11:37 +1 to caputre in wiki 14:11:44 so we need a lead or small to team to research ID systems to adopt or align with 14:11:44 +1 14:11:54 +1 14:11:59 it's not in my scope +1 14:12:09 ACTION: Matt to put ID requirements in Wiki doc 14:12:09 Created ACTION-31 - Put ID requirements in Wiki doc [on Matt Womer - due 2011-03-16]. 14:12:23 matt: proposed an action item to add the results of this ID to the wiki 14:13:53 christine: I suggest (has worked in the past) to invite an expert into our meeting on these topics we don't have experience with 14:15:07 vinod: I have some resources here that I can contact who know quite a bit about URI 14:15:32 matt: I'll put together some resources from the current e-mail thread 14:15:44 ACTION: cperey to invite Henning after Matt has put ID requirements in the wiki 14:15:44 Created ACTION-32 - Invite Henning after Matt has put ID requirements in the wiki [on Christine Perey - due 2011-03-16]. 14:15:53 we can have the two speakers during the same session so that they can hear one another 14:15:55 ACTION: vinod to invite DERI expert after Matt has put ID requirements in the wiki 14:15:55 Created ACTION-33 - Invite DERI expert after Matt has put ID requirements in the wiki [on Vinod Hegde - due 2011-03-16]. 14:15:59 christine: Vinod and I can then hand this document off to Henning and Vinod's contacts 14:16:31 christine: suggests we schedule these two expert opinions on the same day 14:17:37 ahill2: We might need some consensus on where these ID are going, are they on every primitive? 14:17:39 alex: can Karl clarify if he think each primitive needs an ID? 14:18:02 JonathanJ has joined #poiwg 14:18:36 karl: place certainly needs it, location can be overloaded so it might be nice to have an ID so it can be shared 14:19:16 Category IDs is Henning's specialty 14:19:18 karl: category identifiers help make sure text descriptions refer to the same category 14:19:37 the IETF has been working on this as part of a WG 14:19:43 probably GeoPriv? 14:19:55 +1 to have the same id mechanism where ids are needed 14:20:03 karl: I would move that we make our IDs share common traits among the place, location and category IDs 14:20:17 christine: we should use somebody else's category ID 14:21:37 do objects have IDs? what about the Internet of things? 14:21:44 christine: what about locations that change? 14:22:26 ahill2: Is it possible that a location can have an ID whose values are changing? 14:22:39 ahill2: Maybe this is in some ways indicating a source of location information, not that it is static? 14:22:41 I dom't undertand 14:23:34 cperey: What good is it for it to be fixed in space if the ID is changing? 14:23:48 +q 14:24:09 ahill2: I was suggesting the opposite, if the ID of a car or something is changing then it is maybe reflective of it's location changing. 14:24:19 cperey: That's an object 14:24:42 ahill2: I agree it's different than a fixed place like a building, but I could imagine different authorities managing different facilities, e.g. one for a building and another for a GPS tracker. 14:24:47 cperey: Wouldn't that be the location primitive? 14:25:00 cperey: I thought an ID was fixed. 14:25:01 q? 14:25:27 cperey: I thought with the ID I could share the object between apps. 14:25:55 karls: We're confusing that a place and object has an ID with the fact that the ?? has a ... 14:26:16 vinod: The URI could be the same but dereferrencing the URI would give you the changing data. 14:26:38 karls: Here's the use case: five shoe stores in the same shopping mall, each has it's own place URI, but they share a location ID. 14:26:58 karls: Then there's the case of a delivery truck that has a unique object ID and a location ID that renders where it is right now. 14:27:37 vinod: If a location ID is a URI, then the service can always update the data at the URI. 14:27:39 q? 14:27:42 Ronald: I tend to agree with ahill2 that for sensors the ID of the location primitive makes sense. 14:27:44 ack Ronald 14:27:55 Ronald: The location primitive itself was not meant to be only for fixed locations. 14:27:56 matt, I'll 14:27:59 get it 14:28:32 rrsagent, make minutes 14:28:32 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/09-poiwg-minutes.html matt 14:28:45 rrsagent, make logs public 14:28:58 ahill2: Christine, do you feel this discussion satisfies what she's looking for in a POI? 14:29:51 have to sign off, have a good day 14:30:02 -karls 14:30:03 cperey: I'll have to see it in writing, but my sense is that there are sub IDs 14:30:33 ahill2: One ID is about the POI, one is about the location (e.g. a sensor, a source, an authority) 14:31:15 cperey: So they are nested. 14:31:34 ahill2: Yes. I was asking Karl about that.. There will still be this primary ID that is the POI id. 14:31:58 matt: OK, moving on to the next topic 14:32:25 vinod, how do you spell your institution/ 14:32:43 Topic: AR Landscape 14:32:44 Digital Enterprise Research Institute 14:32:52 thanks 14:32:59 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/AR_Landscape/Browsers AR Landscape Browsers 14:33:38 first I've looked at it 14:33:42 matt: Jonathan has added some info about the AR browsers that are out there 14:33:43 review it now 14:33:58 can we get an overview of what was added? 14:34:22 jonathan: can we move this to the last topic? 14:34:48 Topic: Administrative stuff 14:35:03 -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/45386/POI-F2F-2011-1/ Next F2F Registration 14:35:14 Matt, I have an item to add to admin topics 14:35:34 matt: the registration form is up, please fill it out whether attending or not - hotel, days attending 14:35:50 -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Face_to_Face_Meetings/March_2011 F2F meeting page 14:36:22 matt: reminder 29th-31st of March, agenda is entirely TBD 14:36:23 for the agenda, is it appropriate to call for papers? 14:36:50 OK 14:36:51 cperey: is a call for papers appropriate? 14:37:30 +q 14:37:30 matt: like in December, we will keep this focused on a working meeting 14:37:45 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/chairs/2011JanMar/0060 DST reminder 14:38:03 matt: US & Canada moving clocks forward on the 13th and then Europe 2 weeks later 14:39:00 matt: for the next 2 weeks the meeting is 1 hour different 14:39:14 cprerey: is it 5 or 7 horus now? 14:40:15 cperey; right now we are 6 hours apart and for those two weeks we are only 5 hours apart - so1 hours earlier for Europe 14:40:18 +q 14:40:32 ack next 14:41:24 cperey: in Barcelona there was the AR Standards Meeting but nobody from the W3C meeting was there 14:41:53 cperey: we didn't have any contribution from the POI group 14:42:33 cperey: the next AR Standards Meeting is likely to be between 12th and 18th of June 14:42:41 cperey: in Taiwan 14:43:15 cprerey: I am making an invitation to the POI group to present their work at this meeting 14:43:32 +1 to move topic to next week 14:44:15 matt: sorry for mangling the link, lets move this topic to next week 14:44:17 +q 14:44:22 ack next 14:44:32 Topic: Linked Data 14:44:43 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2011Feb/0026 Linked Data discussion starts here 14:45:14 vinod: in the PDFs I attached I am trying to highlight the kind of complex queries that are possible with linked data 14:45:40 vinod: we need to have semantics and structure to handle these complex queries 14:45:59 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2011Feb/0027 Vinod's advantages to Linked Data use in POI 14:46:01 vinod: the linked data allows extended data 14:46:04 +q 14:46:11 ack next 14:46:32 ahill2: We've been trying to address extending the POI data, and so I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. 14:46:57 ahill2: Is this the same thing, or does linked data have greater extensibility? 14:47:37 vinod: Having a standard structure so that queries can be made. I'm talking about the content, rather than the delivery. 14:48:03 ahill2: When you say structure, I'm thinking you can take on any data to an XML representation. Are you saying that isn't structured because we don't have a structure or schema and so then you can't do complex queries on it? 14:48:08 vinod: Correct, that's what I'm saying. 14:48:35 vinod: If you consider a person as a POI, he has different attributes than an historical POI. 14:48:45 vinod: If complex queries have to be supported then there must be semantics. 14:49:40 ahill2: Not arguing against linked data, but trying to understand what it gives. Can't you add data that comes along with it's own schema through XML and namespaces? As long as the fundamental unit, a POI is simple enough, then can't the namespace facilitate that? 14:50:06 vinod: You can do some conversions, but linked data makes complex queries possible. What tools we use, e.g. RDB to RDF. 14:50:21 s/RDB/relational database/ 14:51:02 ahill2: I tend to agree that linked data helps you query sources for additional information, that's the power of it. 14:51:35 vinod: If you don't have a standard structure then there are different names for attributes, etc. 14:51:50 ahill2: So, through things like an XML schema with a namespace, can't you get some of this functionality out of XML? 14:52:20 vinod: There's ontologies, representing data in an object. 14:52:30 ahill2: This process can occur without linked data though, right? 14:52:42 vinod: If we have a standard ontology adopted, we can support complex queries. 14:53:44 ahill2: For those of us who aren't familiar with linked data, when I looked at the linked data representations, they look kind of complex. What is the most simple POI case? 14:54:16 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-poiwg/2011Feb/att-0026/_DERI_POIs_in_Semantic_Web.pdf 14:55:08 vinod: If you consider a person, you represent him in the FOAF ontology and then you can consider him in an AR context by adding POI attributes. 14:55:18 ahill2: Basically linking up data with location as indicated in fifth slide. 14:56:03 vinod: Anything could be a POI, but we could have AR metadata outside of the POI core. 14:56:20 vinod: The AR attributes are for rendering in an AR browser. 14:56:39 ahill2: It seems to me that it might be useful for the group to have an example that is similar to the use cases that we're used to. 14:56:58 ahill2: e.g. the fast food restaurant in this municipality in this mall is a restaurant. 14:57:36 ahill2: Contrast it to a typical XML representation or an RDB format. 14:57:45 ACTION: vinod to represent one of our common use cases in linked data friendly way 14:57:45 Created ACTION-34 - Represent one of our common use cases in linked data friendly way [on Vinod Hegde - due 2011-03-16]. 14:58:11 +1 to closing topic 14:58:46 Topic: Hotel reservations 14:58:59 ahill2: Did anyone get a response from the hotel email? 14:59:02 Ronald: The hotel has received some reservations. 14:59:08 bye 14:59:16 -cperey 14:59:17 Luca has left #poiwg 14:59:17 zakim, drop me 14:59:17 -vinod 14:59:17 -Ronald 14:59:17 Matt is being disconnected 14:59:18 bye 14:59:19 -Matt 14:59:22 ahill2 has left #poiwg 14:59:26 bye 14:59:29 -Luca 14:59:58 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:59:58 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/03/09-poiwg-minutes.html matt 15:05:06 disconnecting the lone participant, ahill2, in UW_POI(POIWG)9:00AM 15:05:08 UW_POI(POIWG)9:00AM has ended 15:05:12 Attendees were Matt, vinod, +1.312.894.aaaa, karls, +1.617.848.aabb, Ronald, cperey, ahill2, Luca 16:39:56 JonathanJ has left #poiwg 16:47:28 danbri has joined #poiwg 17:23:12 Zakim has left #poiwg