IRC log of svg on 2011-02-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:34:41 [RRSAgent]
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logging to
20:34:43 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
20:34:45 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:34:45 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
20:34:46 [trackbot]
Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:34:46 [trackbot]
Date: 27 February 2011
20:34:49 [heycam]
RRSAgent, this meeting spans midnight
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scribe: jwatt
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scribenick: jwatt
20:46:29 [jwatt]
scribe: Jonathan Watt
20:46:36 [jwatt]
topic: 1.1 2nd Ed.
20:46:52 [jwatt]
CL: looking at the disposition of comments
20:47:00 [jwatt]
...there are two that have not been responded to
20:47:11 [jwatt]
...probably just because tracker has not been updated
20:47:28 [jwatt]
...there are a few replies that we've not heard back from
20:47:45 [heycam]
20:48:03 [jwatt]
...2 issues that we rejected have been accepted by the reporter
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20:48:27 [jwatt]
CM: so the two we haven't responded to are:
20:48:36 [heycam]
20:48:36 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2334 -- Last Call Comment: filter primitive subregion and feGaussianBlur, feTile and infinite filter input images -- raised
20:48:36 [trackbot]
20:48:40 [heycam]
20:48:40 [trackbot]
ISSUE-2364 -- Last Call Comment: SVG 1.1 may be ambiguous about the root element acting as a proximal event target -- raised
20:48:40 [trackbot]
20:49:25 [jwatt]
ED: the only remaining thing with 2334 is roc's comments on the filter boundaries
20:49:35 [ed]
20:49:47 [heycam]
20:49:48 [jwatt]
ED: look at the top two emails
20:49:52 [jwatt]
...or top one
20:50:07 [jwatt]
...I think you (roc) agreed that the spec change was okay
20:51:12 [jwatt]
...would you be fine with not making any more changes at this point?
20:51:24 [jwatt]
ROC: yes
20:52:34 [jwatt]
ED: let's just mark the issue as resolved in that case
20:53:07 [ed]
RRSAgent: pointer?
20:53:07 [RRSAgent]
20:53:51 [jwatt]
RRSAgent: make minutes
20:53:51 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jwatt
20:57:02 [jwatt]
CL: for 2364 Doug was really relaying from kevinar18, so the original commenter has not been contacted I believe
20:59:29 [ChrisL]
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20:59:40 [jwatt]
CL: it seems reasonable to me to say we'll clarify it in SVG 2, leaving it as is in 2nd ed for now
21:00:14 [heycam]
21:00:24 [jwatt]
CL: for the tests that have fewer than 2 passing implementations, I've put up my comments and erik and chris did to
21:00:33 [jwatt]
21:00:40 [jwatt]
...see above
21:00:54 [jwatt]
CM: we should go through these and decide what to do about them
21:01:16 [jwatt]
CL: the test assumes that font-weight is continuously animatable, but it's not
21:01:30 [jwatt]
...the subtest should be removed I think
21:01:54 [jwatt]
CM: none of the tests use calcMode, so we could change it to discrete
21:02:35 [jwatt]
...we would have to choose values that are multiples of 100, or else it won't animate
21:03:42 [jwatt]
BB: it's already using keywords like 'bold'
21:03:53 [jwatt]
CM: in than case we could leave the values alone
21:05:05 [jwatt]
ED: Opera don't normalize keywords for font-weight so we probably treat the animation as discrete anyway
21:05:48 [jwatt]
...adding calcMode would make it clearer though
21:07:31 [heycam]
21:09:58 [heycam]
21:10:04 [ed] (done editing)
21:11:52 [jwatt]
ED: filters-light-03-f.svg was for the change where we defined how primitiveUnits=objectBoundingBox computes the attribute values for some of the filter primitives that need that
21:12:03 [jwatt] particular the lighting filters with x, y, z
21:12:12 [ChrisL]
could someone regen the test suite status? I have checked in the newly-passed abbra results
21:12:54 [jwatt]
...and the cases where you have optional parameters, one or two values (<number-optional-number), and it wasn't clear how these were affected (expanded then computed, or computed then expanded)
21:13:20 [jwatt]
CM: probably it's going to be hard to get two implementations passing
21:13:53 [jwatt]
ED: Batik gets it half right, but doesn't seem to implement objectBoundingBox at all
21:14:22 [jwatt]
...I put comments in the test saying how to compute the results
21:16:44 [heycam]
21:18:07 [dholbert]
(quick mozilla-bugzilla search says we don't yet have a bug filed on that test, fwiw)
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21:20:55 [jwatt]
scribe: Jonathan Watt
21:20:59 [jwatt]
scribenick: jwatt
21:21:21 [heycam]
21:21:47 [jwatt]
ROC: I should be able to fix that (filters-light-03-f.html) this week
21:23:07 [jwatt]
...actually longsonr may have fixed that already
21:23:36 [jwatt]
CM: we should aim to have these test issues fixed by the end of the week so that we can set up the transition call
21:23:52 [heycam]
21:24:14 [jwatt]
ED: that's one of the old tests
21:24:42 [jwatt]
CM: it's probably not a simple fix in Batik
21:25:25 [jwatt]
...making it a solid color would make Batik pass
21:26:34 [jwatt]
ED: using userSpaceOnUse didn't make any difference for Batik
21:27:25 [jwatt]
...we should unapprove this test and create two separate drafts
21:27:53 [jwatt]
...we should create separate tests for fillPaint and strokePaint anyway
21:28:41 [ed]
s/we should unapprove this test and create two separate drafts/we could make the filters-overview-01 and 02 drafts and then create an 03 which uses solid color fills, then add new tests that are specifically testing FillPaint and StrokePaint with gradients/
21:28:58 [jwatt]
CM: I'll copy -01 to -03 and edit -01 to refer to a solid color
21:30:46 [jwatt]
...using a solid color works in Batik
21:57:11 [jwatt]
RRSAgent: make minutes
21:57:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jwatt
21:57:40 [heycam]
21:57:58 [jwatt]
CL: it's not clear what that's trying to test
21:59:32 [jwatt]
...if it's testing the CSS font-style property, then we can make a WOFF version
21:59:50 [jwatt]
...I think it is, and it would be fine to do that
22:02:57 [jwatt]
ACTION: Chris to convert fonts-desc-04-t.html to use WOFF
22:02:57 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2962 - Convert fonts-desc-04-t.html to use WOFF [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-03-06].
22:03:10 [ed]
i just checked in an updated
22:05:59 [jwatt]
22:08:35 [jwatt]
CL: I'll convent that to WOFF too
22:08:37 [jwatt]
22:09:08 [jwatt]
CM: where we fixed up the text-anchor to use middle
22:10:55 [jwatt]
22:11:20 [jwatt]
CM: Chris was going to edit the text description
22:11:42 [jwatt]
CL: I agreed to put something in the spec to explain what xml:lang is for
22:13:53 [jwatt]
CM: probably not implemented
22:16:01 [jwatt]
CL: we should maybe drop it - it was a good idea at the time, but maybe less so now
22:16:24 [jwatt]
CM: we should unapprove the test for now
22:17:16 [jwatt]
22:17:25 [jwatt]
CM: Alex says Abra passes this test now
22:18:38 [jwatt]
...this test wasn't added because of a spec change, just because I noticed there wasn't a test
22:19:27 [jwatt]
...everyone agrees it's a reasonable test although we don't have two implementations, so we could probably keep it
22:20:27 [jwatt]
ACTION: Cameron to email Jeremiah about fixing painting-render-02-b.html in Batik
22:20:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2963 - Email Jeremiah about fixing painting-render-02-b.html in Batik [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-06].
22:20:51 [ed]
RRSAgent: pointer?
22:20:51 [RRSAgent]
22:26:01 [jwatt]
22:26:13 [jwatt]
CM: we should probably remove the subtest
22:26:48 [jwatt]
ACTION: Cameron to make the first subtest of painting-stroke-10-t.html render nothing
22:26:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2964 - Make the first subtest of painting-stroke-10-t.html render nothing [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-06].
22:29:22 [jwatt]
22:31:44 [jwatt]
ED: Safari 5 passes on the simplified tests
22:32:35 [jwatt]
22:33:00 [jwatt]
CM: the CSS stuff about baseline alignment is still in flux, and I want CSS and SVG to align on this
22:33:11 [jwatt]
...we have different defaults
22:33:53 [jwatt]
...I was going to email the XSL people, but haven't yet
22:34:29 [jwatt]
...I've also changed my mind a few times on this
22:34:45 [jwatt]
...that's why I think we should unapprove it for now
22:35:25 [jwatt]
CL: presumably we'll errata SVG once CSS has settled on what they're doing
22:35:54 [jwatt]
above comments apply to too
22:36:09 [jwatt]
22:36:43 [jwatt]
ED: I haven't split this out yet - have an action to do that
22:37:21 [jwatt]
CM: I'll take the action
22:38:31 [jwatt]
22:39:14 [jwatt]
ED: I was hoping this would be easy to get to pass in another implementation, but I'm not so convinced
22:39:25 [jwatt]
...some tests are testing index size exception
22:41:43 [jwatt]
ED: it's important that the glyphs appear the same, and the advances are the same
22:42:17 [jwatt]
ACTION: Chris to make a WOFF font for font-desc-04
22:42:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2965 - Make a WOFF font for font-desc-04 [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-03-06].
22:50:12 [jwatt]
22:50:25 [jwatt]
RRSAgent: make minutes
22:50:25 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jwatt
22:52:11 [jwatt]
ACTION: Erik to go through the minutes and unapprove tests as appropriate
22:52:11 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2966 - Go through the minutes and unapprove tests as appropriate [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-03-06].
22:55:26 [jwatt]
22:55:34 [jwatt]
ED: I think we should unapprove the test for now
22:55:46 [jwatt]
CM: we could leave the start one
22:56:07 [jwatt]
...basically turns into a test of whether multiple x/y values are supported
22:56:24 [jwatt]
...there's a WOFF in there already
22:56:42 [jwatt]
ED: I will reword the action to be about splitting it
23:00:13 [dholbert]
anthony / anthony_nz:
23:02:30 [dholbert]
23:08:36 [jwatt]
topic: animateColor
23:08:41 [jwatt]
CL: historical background
23:08:45 [jwatt]
...comes from SMIL
23:08:58 [jwatt]
...which assumed animate could only work on scalars
23:09:28 [jwatt]
...SVG 1.0 it said you can't use <animate> with color
23:09:34 [jwatt]
...SVG 1.1 says you can
23:09:47 [jwatt]
...SVG 1.1 2nd edition clarifies how you do it
23:10:11 [jwatt] now we are at the stage where we can just use <animate>
23:10:28 [jwatt]
...but we have content out there that uses <animateColor>
23:10:44 [jwatt]
ROC: what content uses it, and is it on the web?
23:11:48 [jwatt] it in walled gardens?
23:12:06 [jwatt]
...I guess I'm just interested in whether we can say "use <animate> on the web"
23:13:23 [jwatt]'s a no brainer to deprecate it at least
23:14:50 [jwatt]
JW: since FF4 is going out with <animate> support from color, but without <animateColor> support, when people start expecting their SMIL content to work in FF we'll see if animateColor is common due to the number of complaints
23:15:11 [birtles]
23:15:39 [jwatt]
CM: the spec currently says what to do for color-interpolation on animateColor, but not yet for <animate>
23:16:52 [ChrisL]
23:17:29 [jwatt]
CL: there's an example using animateColor
23:18:15 [ChrisL]
and lots of people will copy and paste those examples
23:18:17 [jwatt]
CM: there are people that are coming up on the svg-developers list using animateColor
23:18:44 [jwatt]
ED: and people do commonly use the Adobe examples
23:19:45 [ed]
s/use the/refer to (and use)/
23:19:59 [jwatt]
CM: we could deprecate animate color and define color-interpolation in 2nd ed
23:24:42 [roc]
those Adobe examples don't put the <svg> element in the right namespace :-)
23:24:44 [jwatt]
ACTION: Cameron to deprecate animate color and define color-interpolation on <animate> in 2nd ed
23:24:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2967 - Deprecate animate color and define color-interpolation on <animate> in 2nd ed [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-06].
23:28:14 [ChrisL]
23:28:32 [jwatt]
RRSAgent: make minutes
23:28:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jwatt
23:30:05 [ChrisL]
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00:54:17 [anthony_nz]
Scribe: Anthony
00:54:29 [anthony_nz]
scribenick: anhtony_nz
00:54:34 [anthony_nz]
Topic: Starting SVG 2
00:54:52 [anthony_nz]
CM: In CVS there is a start of SVG 2 which I think Doug you put together
00:54:56 [anthony_nz]
DS: Yes
00:55:15 [anthony_nz]
CM: It's good to have the document there so we can start putting in some of our ideas we've been putting off for a long time
00:55:26 [anthony_nz]
... some of the ISSUES we've put off for SVG 2
00:55:39 [anthony_nz]
... this session I'd like to discuss some of the ideas for writing the document up
00:56:08 [anthony_nz]
DS: I'm the editor of the web events touch interface specification
00:56:32 [dholbert]
00:56:44 [anthony_nz]
... ReSpec.JS is a script library and set of conventions that helps author specifications
00:56:54 [anthony_nz]
... It's a Java script document system
00:57:21 [anthony_nz]
... creates references table. If you want to create an interface you summaries it simply as a definition list
00:57:23 [jwatt]
s/Java script/JavaScript/
00:57:28 [anthony_nz]
... and it converts it all in to WebIDL
00:57:59 [anthony_nz]
... You can make canonical definitions of something it will reference the correct instance
00:58:13 [anthony_nz]
JW: Helps with book keeping and promotes consistency
00:58:42 [anthony_nz]
DS: Having ReSpec may make it easier to write the spec
00:58:48 [anthony_nz]
JW: Which groups are using it?
00:59:13 [anthony_nz]
... DAP, a few in Web Events and Web Apps
00:59:30 [anthony_nz]
DS: HTML 5 is not using it
00:59:56 [anthony_nz]
DS: I don't know how well it handles very large specs
01:00:20 [anthony_nz]
CM: One of the things that annoys me about it is takes a while to do the reformatting
01:00:26 [anthony_nz]
CL: Can't you do that in batch?
01:00:38 [anthony_nz]
CM: The idea is to remove a special generation step
01:00:57 [anthony_nz]
JW: Under which circumstances is it slow?
01:01:02 [anthony_nz]
DS: Every time you reload it
01:01:26 [birtles]
01:01:39 [anthony_nz]
... So the thing I'm think is we either use ReSpec.JS
01:02:06 [anthony_nz]
... or use something that consumes the markup and conventions of ReSpec.JS
01:02:14 [anthony_nz]
DH: That sounds like reimplementing ReSpec.JS
01:02:42 [anthony_nz]
DS: The advantages is having idiosyncratic specs is harder for people to read and review
01:02:54 [anthony_nz]
... it does things with IDL which our current system doesn't
01:03:14 [anthony_nz]
CL: What's the input stored in?
01:03:29 [anthony_nz]
... there's alot of careful lot of wording and linking and I don't want to lose that
01:03:43 [anthony_nz]
... and going back to text and reforming it
01:05:14 [anthony_nz]
CM: The idea of starting from a blank slate and take across things
01:05:18 [anthony_nz]
... that we want
01:05:34 [anthony_nz]
... means we have to examine things
01:05:53 [anthony_nz]
CL: I'm not going against moving to a new system, just want to know the benefits it brings
01:06:24 [anthony_nz]
DS: I think should talk to Robin Berjon to see if ReSpec.JS will scale up to a document size such as SVG
01:07:07 [anthony_nz]
CM: I recently tried ReSpec.JS and one of the reason I wanted to go back to an XSLT style process
01:08:00 [anthony_nz]
... Styling choices, and the method for writing the IDL. I think the other way around, because I like to control the way the IDL looks
01:09:54 [anthony_nz]
DS: The good thing about it is outputs consistent markup which makes it easier to style
01:10:18 [anthony_nz]
CM: I didn't put much effort into looking at how difficult it would be to change
01:10:51 [anthony_nz]
DS: If we decide to go with this and it turns out that we end up changing what the output looks
01:10:58 [anthony_nz]
... then we've lost the advantage of it
01:11:35 [anthony_nz]
CL: The other thing is if we have our own system as long as it generates the final style markup that is specified by W3C
01:11:44 [anthony_nz]
... it is ok
01:12:02 [anthony_nz]
CM: The other thing is how we are going to build it up
01:12:02 [shepazu]
01:12:11 [anthony_nz]
... the SVG 2 spec that is
01:12:24 [anthony_nz]
DS: This is a set of conventions that I've used
01:12:45 [anthony_nz]
... and is no way is a mandated
01:17:29 [anthony_nz]
CM: I think starting with a blank slate then examining the features as we port them across is a good idea
01:17:55 [anthony_nz]
CL: We want to maintain backwards compatibility as we do it
01:18:05 [anthony_nz]
... otherwise people not adopt what we make
01:18:16 [anthony_nz]
... I kind of like the way we split it into chapters
01:18:37 [anthony_nz]
... having it one enormous file to edit is a pain
01:19:18 [anthony_nz]
... I also like having the examples in separate files
01:19:29 [anthony_nz]
... so they can be dropped into implementations
01:19:40 [anthony_nz]
CM: It might be better to have the source document as a single file
01:19:51 [anthony_nz]
... which is then broken up into chapters
01:19:59 [anthony_nz]
ED: It's kind of painful to edit
01:20:21 [anthony_nz]
CL: At the end of the day we need both; a single document spec and one with chapters
01:20:43 [anthony_nz]
CM: Various parts in the spec are quite wordy and flowery and just take up space
01:21:00 [anthony_nz]
... some parts are terse and under worded
01:21:44 [anthony_nz]
CL: I like specs which explain things exactly. I think adding motivation as to why things are there helps out
01:22:18 [anthony_nz]
... I'm talking about summary about what the job is of something and why it is there
01:22:53 [ted]
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01:25:24 [anthony_nz]
CM: I think a good way to progress is to start with a list of features
01:25:26 [anthony_nz]
... or something like that
01:25:29 [anthony_nz]
... of the language
01:25:41 [anthony_nz]
... so we can evaluate at the feature level what we want in the document
01:25:54 [anthony_nz]
... From there we can decide what wording we want to put in
01:25:55 [heycam]
ted, thanks!
01:26:11 [anthony_nz]
DS: I think that is a good idea
01:26:44 [anthony_nz]
CL: Do we use CVS or do we use Mercurial
01:27:24 [ted]
heycam, maybe you'll want to set the channel mode so anyone can change topic
01:27:30 [heycam]
ted, ok cool
01:27:41 [ted]
via: /mode #svg -t
01:27:43 [ted]
01:28:00 [ted]
ted has changed the topic to: test
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01:30:20 [anthony_nz]
JW: I would really strongly go against using CVS for the next version
01:30:48 [ted]
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01:30:53 [anthony_nz]
... You know a file changed for a version and you don't know what changed as well with that file
01:31:13 [anthony_nz]
CL: I hate the fact you can't move files between directories without losing history
01:33:33 [anthony_nz]
RESOLUTION: We will use Mercurial for our version system when writing SVG 2
01:35:08 [anthony_nz]
CM: I'm happy to do the job of starting off the list of features that should be in SVG 2
01:35:50 [anthony_nz]
JW: Should we create an SVG 2 repository for Mercurial?
01:36:08 [jwatt]
should we rename the URL for to ?
01:36:34 [anthony_nz]
CM: What granularity do we have specs at?
01:37:07 [anthony_nz]
ROC: Should avoid sub repositories
01:37:12 [anthony_nz]
CM: So just one then
01:37:46 [anthony_nz]
... Mercurial doesn't deal well with binaries?
01:37:56 [anthony_nz]
JW: I think it's if you change them a lot
01:38:34 [anthony_nz]
ED: The best way to solve generating of images for the repository is generate them on the server
01:38:44 [anthony_nz]
... ultimately we'll use Ref Tests
01:39:52 [anthony_nz]
ACTION: Cermon to Examine SVG 1.1 and derive a list of features to be considered for SVG 2
01:40:08 [anthony_nz]
ACTION: Cameron to Examine SVG 1.1 and derive a list of features to be considered for SVG 2
01:40:31 [heycam]
trackbot, help
01:42:22 [trackbot]
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01:42:54 [anthony_nz]
ACTION: Cameron to Examine SVG 1.1 and derive a list of features to be considered for SVG 2
01:42:55 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2969 - Examine SVG 1.1 and derive a list of features to be considered for SVG 2 [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-03-07].
01:48:47 [anthony_nz]
CM: I'll send an email to Sysrec and get them to change the name of the Mercurial repository "svg2-tests" to "svg"
01:49:08 [jwatt]
01:49:15 [jwatt]
RRSAgent: make minutes
01:49:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate jwatt
01:51:50 [anthony_nz]
Topic: SVG Masking
01:52:04 [anthony_nz]
ED: It was raised on the mailing lists
01:52:26 [anthony_nz]
... masks override the color-interpolation property
01:52:31 [ed]
01:52:38 [anthony_nz]
... That's the page describing the problem
01:52:56 [anthony_nz]
... what the spec is currently saying regardless of the value of color-interpolation
01:53:13 [anthony_nz]
... you still need to do your mask in linearRGB space
01:53:22 [anthony_nz]
... I wasn't sure why exactly
01:53:36 [anthony_nz]
... it seems that PDF and Postscript something similar
01:53:46 [anthony_nz]
... but it seems odd why it would override color-interpolation
01:54:17 [anthony_nz]
... My proposal for bringing this up is to respect color-interpolation for the calculation of the mask
01:54:44 [anthony_nz]
CM: Maybe the idea was the idea originally that since linearRGB was more natural aspect to colors then maybe it was better to use
01:57:20 [anthony_nz]
DS: Do you think there is content out there that would have any noticeable change?
01:57:35 [anthony_nz]
ED: Not sure, but I think the change would be minor
01:58:07 [anthony_nz]
... and people can specify color-interpolation to fix the issue if it is a big problem them
01:59:53 [ed]
02:00:45 [ed]
02:03:37 [anthony_nz]
ED: Would be good to change this for 1.1 2nd Edition
02:05:05 [anthony_nz]
CL: If we did a test that had two masks one using each value and one using the default
02:05:47 [anthony_nz]
ED: The problem is there is a performance penalty because the color space conversion
02:07:05 [anthony_nz]
CL: I think it would be fine to put the wording in to the spec to say that color-interpolation applies
02:07:12 [anthony_nz]
ED: It already says that
02:07:18 [anthony_nz]
... it's a matter of removing some of the wording
02:07:38 [anthony_nz]
DS: I total understand why you'd want to do it
02:07:52 [anthony_nz]
... it's building towards SVG 2
02:09:35 [anthony_nz]
CL: I think it's a better thing going forward
02:10:56 [anthony_nz]
RESOLUTION: Proposal to allow color-interpolation to be honored by filter masking is accepted
02:11:07 [ed]
s/filter masking/mask elements/
02:12:44 [anthony_nz]
ACTION: Erik to Change the tests and specification to adopt the proposal to allow color-interpolation to be honored by mask elements
02:12:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2970 - Change the tests and specification to adopt the proposal to allow color-interpolation to be honored by mask elements [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-03-07].
02:29:58 [heycam]
ISSUE: Should have an alpha-mask property that can reference <mask>s (and maybe other elements) to mask based on alpha values instead of luminance
02:29:58 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-2401 - Should have an alpha-mask property that can reference <mask>s (and maybe other elements) to mask based on alpha values instead of luminance ; please complete additional details at .
02:32:52 [heycam]
Scribe: Cameron
02:32:54 [heycam]
ScribeNick: heycam
02:32:58 [heycam]
Topic: Testing framework
02:33:11 [heycam]
ED: I wanted to discuss making a clear plan ahead for the existing test suite
02:33:29 [heycam]
... we should try to decide what to do with it: abandon it, convert some of the tests, write completely new tests, more minimal ones?
02:33:59 [heycam]
AG: one idea would be to get a list of the things we're trying to test in each test, from the description, and then either develop reftests around that or perhaps modify the tests themselves
02:34:03 [heycam]
... we have a lot of subtests in tests
02:34:13 [heycam]
ED: i think subtests isn't a problem, just test with script and verify it
02:34:29 [heycam]
CL: as long as you can watch them all at once. watching many animated things at once is not good.
02:34:59 [heycam]
CM: i don't think abandoning, but we need minimal tests
02:35:24 [heycam]
CL: like 400 different test with slightly different attributes?
02:35:34 [heycam]
ED: yes, but removing visual tests would also be bad
02:36:00 [heycam]
JW: we could start with mozilla's tests, get them into a state that the w3c framework needs, then start knocking off the old tests as we're happy they're covered by the old tests
02:36:07 [heycam]
... and where they're not, add a new test
02:36:17 [heycam]
CL: we don't know how many tests there are, and what their quality is
02:36:24 [heycam]
AG: does mozilla have reftests for each of the svg test suite tests?
02:36:38 [heycam]
JW: no, and certainly there are areas of the spec we don't implement, and parts of the spec that we don't have good test coverage for
02:36:52 [heycam]
CL: these are not visual tests
02:36:57 [heycam]
JW: they're reftests, so automatable
02:37:15 [heycam]
RO: not human readable. a lot of them have pass criteria like "the whole viewport is green"
02:37:29 [heycam]
JW: you have a test file, and a reference file, and you pass if they're pixel-by-pixel identical
02:37:38 [heycam]
ED: all of the reftests are for visual tests?
02:37:42 [heycam]
... what about script tests?
02:37:52 [heycam]
JW: we have mochitest framework for that. a large number of tests for that.
02:37:59 [heycam]
... don't know if the w3c framework supports mochitests
02:38:16 [heycam]
RO: there's a group working out a w3c framework for scripted tests, i heard discussion about it.
02:38:23 [heycam]
DH: i heard fantasai doing something like that?
02:38:24 [heycam]
RO: maybe webapps
02:38:54 [heycam]
CM: anything wrong with just setting a green rectangle on pass?
02:39:09 [heycam]
RO: you don't get good logging information about what subtests fails
02:39:38 [heycam]
ED: the testing framework form w3c is doing that, i think
02:39:47 [heycam]
... you report what you're testing and pass/fail
02:39:53 [heycam]
... i think that's in place, and we can start using it if we want to
02:40:03 [heycam]
... i converted a couple of tests from our test suite to see
02:40:05 [jwatt]
mozilla's reftest tests:
02:40:11 [heycam]
... it's not that hard for tests that are, for example, totally scripted
02:40:12 [jwatt]
look at the reftest.list file in each directory
02:40:25 [heycam]
... just where we check for the result, pass it to the testing framework
02:40:41 [heycam]
... what i was wondering then, if we go for that, is should we separate out the automated tests?
02:40:52 [heycam]
... separate directories for script automated reftests, and one for visual tests?
02:40:57 [heycam]
... it might make sense to make them separate
02:41:07 [heycam]
CM: what tests can't we automate?
02:41:11 [heycam]
ED: ones that require automation
02:41:17 [heycam]
02:41:39 [heycam]
... there's Opera Watir, which allows a testing framework to control the browser
02:41:48 [heycam]
... that's open source and cross platform
02:41:55 [heycam]
... can be used for some automation of interaction tests
02:42:51 [heycam]
DH: could that be cross browser?
02:42:56 [heycam]
ED: yeah it gives you an api to implement
02:43:00 [heycam]
... the whole framework is open source
02:43:08 [heycam]
... the opera implementation of the driver is released
02:43:17 [heycam]
... i think that could be a third form of testing
02:44:16 [ed]
02:44:42 [heycam]
CL: browser automation would help with testing things that involve navigation
02:44:44 [ed]
02:44:48 [heycam]
RO: maybe could help with that
02:45:18 [heycam]
JW: i'm reluctant about watir, mozilla has functionality to dispatch these kinds of events, maybe we could have addons for different browser to implement this API
02:45:36 [heycam]
... or a command line argument to use this api, so we can have these all in reftests or mochitests, so we don't require extra software to be run
02:45:46 [heycam]
AG: what about for non browser implementations?
02:45:52 [heycam]
JW: it still supports scripting
02:46:06 [heycam]
DH: but it probably wouldnt' support an addon
02:46:17 [heycam]
JW: but a command line argument to add extra apis to the window object could be done
02:46:45 [heycam]
CL: other classes of implementation to consider are embedded systems, for example one there's an svg implementation for display screens in hardware. that might be hard.
02:46:54 [heycam]
... another one is svg2pdf tools etc.
02:46:59 [heycam]
JW: for the latter one, is interaction an issue?
02:47:04 [ed]
s/ED: yes, but removing visual tests would also be bad/ED: yes, but removing visual tests could also be bad if people are using them as examples for how to do things in svg/
02:47:13 [heycam]
CL: not specifically for interaction, but the testing framework
02:47:17 [heycam]
JW: svg2pdf should be handled by reftests
02:47:46 [heycam]
... for embedded cases, it's probably easier for them -- if they support script -- to add extra stuff to the global object for testing purposes, than to port watir to work on their platform
02:47:56 [heycam]
... so i think it's still better even for them to use this framework
02:48:07 [heycam]
... can we implement this for opera as an addon?
02:48:17 [heycam]
ED: that's a good question
02:48:29 [ChrisL]
embedded SVG implementation - Spinetix
02:51:24 [heycam]
RO: the web page says watir already works for ie, firefox, opera, ...
02:51:45 [heycam]
JW: i'd like to keep a system where people can run tests with minimal effort, without installing 3rd party software
02:51:54 [heycam]
BB: you can still run the tests, but if you want to automate it...
02:52:00 [heycam]
JW: then you write the test differently if you want to do both
02:52:10 [heycam]
DS: otoh, doing it the way we're doing it doesn't scale
02:53:26 [heycam]
... i don't really want the svgwg to be doing a big project without coordinate with other wgs
02:53:39 [heycam]
... the idea of each group doing testing differently isn't scalable
02:54:27 [heycam]
... maybe we should discuss it in hcg
02:56:11 [heycam]
ED: the html testing tf framework probably would in general work for us, but there are some things that would -- e.g. standalone svgs, testing matrix values with epsilons, etc.
02:59:41 [heycam]
DS: is it worth converting old tests, or just making all new tests?
02:59:57 [heycam]
CL: could just use the old test suite as a pool of resources to help make the new tests
03:00:51 [heycam]
DS: i suspect we'll be changing bits of svg, we know when we've gone over tests and found that isn't really testing what it should be, or contradictory to the spec
03:01:28 [heycam]
... wrt reusing old tests, i'm making the argument that given the number of tests we have, it's not worth it
03:01:36 [heycam]
... using them as input, sure
03:01:51 [heycam]
AG: i think it's useful to know what all of those tests are testing, but not use them directly
03:02:19 [heycam]
DS: for web events i won't be publishing the document until we have tests
03:02:29 [heycam]
... "this is the specification and here are the tests for it"
03:03:21 [heycam]
... so I'd propose that we only publish an ED as a WD if we have tests
03:04:09 [heycam]
ED: what i'd like to see is a start using the, e.g., framework for svg tests
03:04:14 [heycam]
... just as a starting point to see what we can do with it
03:04:23 [heycam]
... if we want to start by doing svg2 tests with that, that could be a starting point
03:04:29 [heycam]
... i don't mind if it's testing 1.1 functionality that way
03:04:42 [heycam]
... but just having something for evaluating the framework to see if it's suitable would be useful
03:05:16 [ed]
03:05:49 [Mike5]
Mike5 has joined #svg
03:05:55 [ed]
03:07:06 [heycam]
CM: I wonder what the html testing tf is using for interactive tests
03:07:59 [Mike5_]
Mike5_ has joined #svg
03:09:46 [Mike5_]
RRSAgent, make minutes
03:09:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Mike5_
03:10:19 [heycam]
MS: the plan we've been talking about for 1.5 years is to set up some common testing infrastructure to allow people to submit tests
03:10:29 [heycam]
... and have ana utomated test harness, automating as much as we can
03:10:37 [pdengler]
pdengler has joined #svg
03:10:37 [heycam]
... that's tsill the goal, it just is taking us a while to get to it
03:10:47 [heycam]
... we have a testing taskforce that has been working for quite a while now
03:10:57 [heycam]
... and we have been doing a lot work on getting test cases in for html5
03:11:08 [heycam]
... the biggest set of tests philip taylor made for canvas
03:11:14 [heycam]
... and probably another 100 or 150 from somewhere else
03:11:18 [heycam]
... MS submitted a good number
03:11:27 [heycam]
... using a testing framework jgraham put together
03:11:40 [heycam]
... we want to get a test case mechanism that allows for having reftests, and having things work across browsers
03:11:54 [heycam]
... what's happening with that is that frmo the team side, we've got some time freed up for myself and francois to help out with testing
03:12:31 [heycam]
... the other thing we've been talking about doing is a mechanism for producing a version of the canvas spec with links to all the test cases
03:12:41 [heycam]
... and the annotations are placed in the spec where there are testable assertions
03:13:02 [heycam]
... in the html spec i want to be able to scale that up from canvas to the whole spec
03:13:14 [heycam]
... that could potentially be useful for any spec we want to use it for
03:13:31 [heycam]
... i guess the priorities right now are for getting a harness we can all agree on, and this way of producing annotations for testable assertions in the spec
03:13:37 [heycam]
... then there's encouraing people to submit tests
03:13:47 [heycam]
... trying to figure out some way to get more test cases and more people to submit them
03:14:01 [heycam]
ED: [summarises earlier discussions]
03:14:16 [pdengler]
slow to start here, but I will have some test cases toward the end of the week we can use as a launch point
03:15:21 [pdengler]
i can keep looking for another optin, for now keep up the conversation, the IRC is working
03:15:53 [heycam]
MS: i don't know if jgraham's set up can support mouse events
03:15:59 [heycam]
... also ms2ger has been doing some work, and others
03:16:17 [heycam]
... part of what i need to do is take a look at what everyone's got so far and figure out how much of it is useful and ...
03:16:26 [heycam]
... seems like nothing we have so far is satisfactory to everyone
03:16:35 [heycam]
... might have to come up with something else
03:16:57 [heycam]
... but the talk of having a common format that everyone uses. we could have a common format, or set up the harness so it could run existing tests from other test suites, like reftests especially
03:17:05 [heycam]
... as far as details around interactivity, i'd have to have a look to see where it's at
03:17:28 [heycam]
DS: one of the things that occurs to me is that having a harness that runs tests in general is good, but one of the benefits of having a common format is that it might promote the submission of tests
03:17:37 [heycam]
... having a well defined way of creating tests that doesn't vary between wgs would be easier on implementors
03:17:49 [heycam]
... e.g. training their teams to create tests for w3c rather than for each group
03:18:06 [heycam]
... having it well documented and consistent, so people in the public who have made css tests then could make svg tests, etc.
03:18:34 [heycam]
... that's why we might want to have a common format. but i don't want to boil the ocean for theoretical benefits
03:19:05 [heycam]
MS: i don't think it's necessarily important to have everything in the same place
03:19:14 [heycam]
... but i think it makes more sense to have them on one server, one repo
03:19:20 [heycam]
s/repo/server, different repos/
03:19:33 [heycam]
... any individual can request a new repo set up on that hg server
03:19:50 [heycam]
... and then it's hg, so if you want to do the management elsewhere, and just use the w3c one as a mirror, or the other way around
03:19:56 [heycam]
... it makes it easier once we have an hg repo
03:21:11 [Zakim]
ok, shepazu; conference Team_(svg)03:21Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 60 minutes until 0421Z
03:21:45 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)03:21Z has now started
03:21:51 [Zakim]
03:21:59 [Mike5]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
03:21:59 [Zakim]
+Mike5; got it
03:22:13 [Zakim]
03:22:26 [Zakim]
+ +1.649.363.aaaa
03:24:24 [heycam]
MS: there are features on sites like bitbucket that are useful, not sure if it's a good idea to reinvent them on
03:24:32 [heycam]
... distributed vc allows us to use those features via those sites
03:24:52 [heycam]
DS: my concern is the added complexity of people knowing where to go to get all the relevant stuff
03:25:03 [heycam]
... and having someone making sure everything is up to date in all copies of the repo
03:25:52 [heycam]
MS: re interactive tests, it seems like we should do everything we can to make sure we have as few automated tests as possible
03:26:07 [heycam]
... including anything that has interactive requirements
03:26:23 [heycam]
... there are different ways to do that, we just need to have the framework enable some way of doing it that works across browsers
03:26:36 [heycam]
... we shouldn't have to write any manual test cases unless we really have to
03:28:12 [heycam]
MS: webperf wg started using the htmlwg framework, and they needed to make some changes to it and wanted to get them upstream
03:28:25 [heycam]
... it seems to be holding up that wg, which is moving quickly
03:28:32 [heycam]
... you don't want to block anyone's work
03:28:49 [heycam]
... i think we should take a look at what they've got
03:28:54 [heycam]
... but plh is impressed with what they've done
03:29:45 [heycam]
DS: what do implementors think about having these apis?
03:29:53 [heycam]
JW: i think we should have them
03:30:09 [heycam]
RO: we have apis that simulate events for tests, it'd be pretty easy to expose them in another way
03:30:13 [heycam]
JW: or have an addon...
03:30:24 [heycam]
DS: so, standardised
03:30:32 [heycam]
RO: did you decide exactly what apis you want?
03:30:44 [heycam]
... if you want to synthesise trusted input events, that's easy to do
03:30:56 [heycam]
... if you want to drive all of the browser's ui programmatically, that's harder
03:30:59 [heycam]
ED: that's what watir is trying to do
03:31:12 [heycam]
RO: dispatching trusted events would be a small extension
03:31:26 [heycam]
... i don't have a feel what's needed beyond that
03:31:49 [heycam]
DS: that sounds like something concrete we can attack
03:32:01 [heycam]
RO: i think we need to find out what apis we actually need
03:32:12 [heycam]
... for say everything needed in the svg test suite right now
03:33:04 [Mike5]
q+ to say that right now I think we should try to put together a common set of requirements
03:33:40 [shepazu]
pdengler, would MS be favorably disposed toward standardizing and implementing testing APIs?
03:33:51 [heycam]
Zakim, ack Mike5
03:33:51 [Zakim]
I see Mike on the speaker queue
03:34:41 [Zakim]
03:35:14 [heycam]
BB: animation tests need snapshots or something
03:35:22 [Zakim]
03:35:27 [Mike5]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
03:35:27 [Zakim]
+Mike5; got it
03:36:11 [heycam]
BB: how about implementations that don't support script, but do support animation?
03:36:22 [heycam]
CM: maybe we can forget about scriptless UAs for this testing framework
03:37:17 [heycam]
MS: i wanted to mention that we need to be getting down the requirements of what we need
03:37:27 [Mike5]
03:37:30 [heycam]
... doug sent out an email earlier with a link to that page
03:37:52 [heycam]
... plh, fantasai, jwatt and i spent some time a year ago working on some of this common testing framework stuff
03:38:01 [heycam]
... the htmlwg test tf which also has a page
03:38:30 [heycam]
... one thing is to add a link there to specific requirements that you all have
03:38:53 [heycam]
... our plan is to have something useful, usable across different wgs, but this summer
03:38:59 [heycam]
... that's not a lot of time
03:39:52 [heycam]
... it's definitely achievable, it's not the time... but just to see what we really need
03:39:59 [heycam]
... and to get some level of agreement on it
03:40:05 [heycam]
... it's just software, and needs to be done
03:40:11 [heycam]
... first is to make sure we have all of the requiements
03:41:36 [heycam]
CM: we will gather interactive requirements for our test suite
03:41:44 [heycam]
... also, we would need to allow svg as a root document
03:41:54 [heycam]
DS: doesn't seem like anything we're doing here is going to conflict with what the html wg tf is doing
03:42:19 [heycam]
... i think we should just try to do what we need, and come to the html testing tf with that
03:42:23 [heycam]
... does that sound reasonable mike?
03:42:33 [Zakim]
03:43:16 [Mike5]
sounds reasonable
03:43:41 [Zakim]
03:43:45 [Mike5]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
03:43:45 [Zakim]
+Mike5; got it
03:44:06 [heycam]
DS: [asks patd about testing apis, for automated browser testing]
03:44:25 [heycam]
... it'd be good to know if ms is interested in speccing out specific apis around testing
03:44:31 [heycam]
... so we can do automated browser testing
03:44:38 [heycam]
PD: standardising?
03:44:54 [heycam]
CL: not standardising, but coming up with an api for interaction simulation etc.
03:45:04 [heycam]
PD: i will ask kris about this
03:45:16 [pdengler]
I will ask krisk about this
03:45:43 [pdengler]
Doug asked whether or not we would be favorable toward standardizing and implementing testing API's
03:45:50 [pdengler]
I will find out on our side and get back shortly
03:47:26 [Mike5]
q+ to say we are still planning to start a Web Developer Tools WG for console object, this stuff might fit in there
03:47:29 [pdengler]
K :)
03:47:40 [pdengler]
"Yes we already have secret api's...."?
03:47:47 [heycam]
Zakim, ack Mike5
03:47:47 [Zakim]
I see Mike on the speaker queue
03:48:08 [heycam]
MS: another thing i'm responsible for is i've written up a rough draft of the console api
03:48:19 [heycam]
... for the console object in browsers
03:48:57 [heycam]
... so listening to whate cameron was saying, long term it could make a lot of sense to have an object that browsers implement, but short term [...]
03:50:15 [heycam]
DS: what are the next steps practically?
03:50:23 [heycam]
... are you guys having telcons around testing that we should be joining?
03:50:28 [heycam]
MS: i think step 1 is requirements gathering
03:50:48 [heycam]
... you guys should write up a wiki page or email message with your requirements
03:50:54 [heycam]
... 2nd thing is having a f2f
03:51:04 [heycam]
... some times you just have to get in a room for a couple of days to get things done
03:51:26 [heycam]
... maybe we can get google accommodation sponsored
03:51:53 [heycam]
... and we can work out a more detailed plan on what we want to get done by the summer
03:52:07 [heycam]
... like august
03:52:14 [heycam]
... some time in may seems to make sense to have a f2f
03:52:33 [heycam]
DS: i think we should have some telcons around that
03:52:48 [heycam]
MS: let's do that and see how many people we can get involved
03:54:08 [heycam]
... we'll aim for the beginning of next week
03:54:26 [heycam]
... we'll figure out times
03:55:01 [pdengler]
can we scribe that..?
03:55:35 [Zakim]
- +1.649.363.aaaa
03:55:37 [Zakim]
03:55:37 [heycam]
ACTION: Doug to coordinate with Mike about setting up a telcon about testing
03:55:38 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2971 - Coordinate with Mike about setting up a telcon about testing [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-03-07].
03:56:41 [Zakim]
03:56:43 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)03:21Z has ended
03:56:44 [Zakim]
Attendees were Mike5, [Microsoft], +1.649.363.aaaa
03:56:44 [pdengler]
i got dropped
03:56:45 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)03:21Z has now started
03:56:51 [Zakim]
+ +1.649.363.aaaa
03:57:01 [shepazu]
Zakim, code?
03:57:01 [Zakim]
the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+ tel:+44.203.318.0479), shepazu
03:57:56 [ed]
03:58:19 [Zakim]
- +1.649.363.aaaa
03:58:20 [Zakim]
Team_(svg)03:21Z has ended
03:58:20 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.649.363.aaaa
04:02:01 [heycam]
ED: with smil tests, i'm suggesting that we decide on a strategy on how to test that in an automated fashion
04:02:03 [ed]
04:02:07 [heycam]
... this is the method i'm suggesting we use
04:02:29 [heycam]
... it's pausing all animation in the document, then setting the current document time, then querying all the animated values to see what they are
04:02:35 [heycam]
... and reporting that to the testing framework
04:02:43 [heycam]
... and then keep doing that, setting a different time, and checking the value again
04:02:57 [heycam]
CL: a lot of the animation tests are just spot testing, like it has to pass the point at 3s
04:03:08 [heycam]
ED: yeah, we could move away from tests that take 30 seconds to run
04:03:14 [heycam]
... we use a similar method for our testing at opera
04:03:33 [heycam]
... so i suggest adopting method #2 going forward
04:03:40 [heycam]
... then we could test animation code just using script
04:03:48 [heycam]
JW: that's the method i think we resolved to use at the sydney f2f
04:03:52 [heycam]
ED: yeah that's possible
04:03:57 [heycam]
... and i think we should actually do it
04:04:05 [heycam]
DS: to be fair to us, svg 1.1 has really been distracting us
04:04:15 [pdengler]
Would we want to do something similar if we adopt CSS animations and would it be the same?
04:04:22 [heycam]
ED: I could convert one or two tests as an example
04:04:30 [heycam]
... should i do that for existing tests?
04:04:32 [heycam]
CL: that'd be easier
04:04:43 [heycam]
ACTION: Erik to convert a couple of animation tests to use the spot testing method
04:04:44 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2972 - Convert a couple of animation tests to use the spot testing method [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-03-07].
04:05:09 [heycam]
CL: will need a tolerance
04:05:24 [heycam]
BB: we mostly rely on snapshots, so we snapshot and compare to a reference image
04:05:29 [heycam]
... it doesn't do the dom
04:05:36 [heycam]
RO: but we do dom tests in other tests
04:05:43 [heycam]
JW: the only thing we need to be careful of is rounding
04:05:49 [heycam]
... differently implementations might round differently
04:06:03 [heycam]
ED: it's possible implementations will need to adapt to support the dom methods the framework uses
04:06:16 [heycam]
... i.e. extracting the animated values, pausing animations, setting the documen time
04:06:19 [heycam]
04:06:48 [heycam]
JW: the webkit bug for implementing these bugs isn't fixed yet
04:07:32 [heycam]
DH: would we use getComputedStyle for animation of css properties?
04:07:43 [heycam]
ED: it should work
04:08:39 [heycam]
CM: would pausing animations work for CSS Transitions/Animations?
04:08:42 [heycam]
... we should discuss that on thursday
04:11:38 [pdengler]
There is no API in CSS that I know of for Transitions/animations
04:11:51 [heycam]
DH: so would we have no visual animations tests?
04:12:07 [heycam]
... or is it just a guideline?
04:12:19 [heycam]
ED: a recommedation on how to write future tests
04:13:01 [heycam]
RESOLVED: We will use spot testing for animation tests going forward
04:13:54 [pdengler]
Me ? No
04:15:31 [heycam]
trackbot, end telcon
04:15:31 [trackbot]
Zakim, list attendees
04:15:31 [Zakim]
sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
04:15:32 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
04:15:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate trackbot
04:15:33 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, bye
04:15:33 [RRSAgent]
I see 12 open action items saved in :
04:15:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Chris to convert fonts-desc-04-t.html to use WOFF [1]
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ACTION: Cameron to email Jeremiah about fixing painting-render-02-b.html in Batik [2]
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ACTION: Cameron to make the first subtest of painting-stroke-10-t.html render nothing [3]
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ACTION: Chris to make a WOFF font for font-desc-04 [4]
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ACTION: Erik to go through the minutes and unapprove tests as appropriate [5]
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ACTION: Cameron to deprecate animate color and define color-interpolation on <animate> in 2nd ed [6]
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04:15:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Cermon to Examine SVG 1.1 and derive a list of features to be considered for SVG 2 [7]
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04:15:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Cameron to Examine SVG 1.1 and derive a list of features to be considered for SVG 2 [8]
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04:15:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Cameron to Examine SVG 1.1 and derive a list of features to be considered for SVG 2 [9]
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04:15:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Erik to Change the tests and specification to adopt the proposal to allow color-interpolation to be honored by mask elements [10]
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ACTION: Doug to coordinate with Mike about setting up a telcon about testing [11]
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04:15:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Erik to convert a couple of animation tests to use the spot testing method [12]
04:15:33 [RRSAgent]
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