15:03:00 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webfonts
15:03:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-webfonts-irc
15:03:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
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15:03:04 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3668
15:03:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_Fonts()10:00AM scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
15:03:05 <trackbot> Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference
15:03:05 <trackbot> Date: 23 February 2011
15:03:47 <sergeym> sergeym has joined #webfonts
15:04:09 <Vlad> zakim, who is here?
15:04:09 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()10:00AM has not yet started, Vlad
15:04:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see sergeym, Zakim, RRSAgent, erik, John, jfkthame, Vlad, jdaggett, ChrisL, trackbot
15:04:48 <erik> (I have trouble dialing in, "this passcode is not valid" - will continue to try)
15:06:53 <ChrisL> it accepted my passcode
15:07:22 <jdaggett> erik: i seemed to get on fine
15:07:28 <jdaggett> dialing into the us number
15:08:44 <erik> (Zakim Paris didn't accept, Zakim London did, calling via skype)
15:09:55 <ChrisL> scribenick: ChrisL
15:11:09 <ChrisL> ChrisL: waiting on responses from Bert.
15:11:18 <ChrisL> ... sent response to Erik Muller
15:11:35 <ChrisL> ... will commit the changes after the call
15:11:47 <ChrisL> Vlad: ok
15:12:06 <ChrisL> Vlad: wanted to discuss SOR and way to relax it
15:12:23 <ChrisL> ... but we have no-one from Apple or Microsoft or Operaon this call
15:12:53 <ChrisL> Vlad: dont want to remove something from the spec, hoping it later gets added elsewhere
15:13:10 <ChrisL> ... with a note saying its subject to change in the future
15:13:45 <ChrisL> ... reviewed process document and it allos features to be marked as 'at risk' and the WG may remove them (but is not forced to)
15:14:03 <ChrisL> ... if we do that it avoids risk of a second last call if we drop the feature
15:14:18 <sergeym> I'm here, but can't call in 
15:14:28 <ChrisL> ChrisL: yes, that is correct
15:15:05 <ChrisL> Vlad: there is a majority who want it done one way and a minority who want it another way
15:15:42 <ChrisL> ... so we should mark i as at risk. If we can convince CSS WG to put it in CSS3 Fonts then we can drop it once that is in. Its not WOFF specific
15:16:14 <ChrisL> jdaggett: Even then you still have a dependency of WOFF on CSS3 Fonts which is dependent of From-Origin which does not exist yet
15:16:27 <ChrisL> Vlad: yes but we would be moving in the right direction
15:16:59 <ChrisL> ... meanwhile implementations can go forward. Currently we have two implementations  per spec
15:17:28 <ChrisL> jdaggett: there was consensus at one point but now there is not. There has been a split
15:18:22 <ChrisL> Vlad: Hakon voiced some concerns and said some in Opera are for, some against; and company position in balance was to abstain
15:19:32 <ChrisL> jdaggett: its not majority rule. Consensus 
15:19:51 <ChrisL> Vlad: we have neither a consensus to keep it or to remove it, so at risk seems better
15:20:24 <ChrisL> jdaggett: So you say add a note with SOR default with CORS to relax is at risk
15:20:40 <ChrisL> Vlad: More specific, two notes
15:20:56 <ChrisL> ... one about CORS saying we believe FO may be better but there is no spec
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15:21:38 <ChrisL> ... second is for SOR saying we could remove it if we have consensus to remove it or if its added in CSS3 Fonts spec which is a better place for it
15:21:48 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
15:21:48 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()10:00AM has not yet started, ChrisL
15:21:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see cslye, sergeym, Zakim, RRSAgent, erik, John, jfkthame, Vlad, jdaggett, ChrisL, trackbot
15:22:17 <ChrisL> jdaggett: Concerned about the feature 'might change'. at risk is either keep or drop
15:22:52 <Vlad> http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#cfi
15:22:58 <ChrisL> Present: Vlad, Jdaggett, Christopher, Sergey, Erik, John, Chris
15:23:04 <ChrisL> Chair: Vlad
15:23:49 <ChrisL> Vlad: so CORS would be 'at risk' and explain why, because FO is better
15:24:14 <John> Present: John H, Tal
15:24:55 <ChrisL> jdaggett: Better if its in the CSS3 Fonts spec
15:25:11 <ChrisL> ... tied to @font-face not to WOFF specifically
15:25:31 <ChrisL> ... wil lput it in an editors draft but mark as at risk then see what flies
15:26:03 <ChrisL> Vlad: So should people join CSS WG ?
15:26:15 <ChrisL> jdaggett: Dave Singer and Hakon arte there already
15:26:28 <ChrisL> Vlad: I could join as well
15:26:38 <ChrisL> ChrisL; So am I and Sylvain
15:26:55 <ChrisL> Vlad: Recommend people join that group as well
15:27:20 <ChrisL> jdaggett: Unfortunate no-one from Apple is heare to clarify which of the possible future options they are comfortable with
15:27:48 <ChrisL> ... CSS WG is a different group, not clear whether they will like it or not. But f2f in two weeks from now
15:28:05 <ChrisL> Vlad; I can't make that meeting
15:28:25 <ChrisL> jdaggett: I will add it and we can have the discussion in CSS WG.
15:28:35 <ChrisL> ... want to avoid specs that can never move on
15:28:51 <ChrisL> Vlad: can you express the majority opinion here
15:29:06 <ChrisL> jdaggett: all  sides will be well represented
15:29:40 <ChrisL> jdaggett: Chris could write up a proposed revision to mark it as at risk
15:29:45 <ChrisL> ChrisL: sure
15:30:01 <ChrisL> action Chris to propose at-risk woding
15:30:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-77 - Propose at-risk woding [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-03-02].
15:30:16 <ChrisL> jdaggett: then can propose it to CSS WG
15:31:09 <ChrisL> Vlad: Chris and i are not available next week, and the week after is CSS so we should cancel those?
15:31:18 <ChrisL> jdaggett: Not sure about that
15:32:07 <ChrisL> ChrisL: will be in NZ for SVG; not going to CSS WG in California unfortunately
15:32:38 <ChrisL> Vlad: proposing to postpone until we have news from the CSS WG
15:34:06 <ChrisL> (we agree on timezones and stuff - CSS WG f2f clashes with WebFonts WG telcon)
15:34:16 <ChrisL> Vlad: so we cancel the next two weeks calls
15:35:11 <ChrisL> John: So implementors can still choose to not implement a feature
15:36:00 <ChrisL> Vlad: (quotes from http://www.w3.org/2005/10/Process-20051014/tr.html#cfi)
15:36:46 <ChrisL> John: we seem to be headed towards non interoperability
15:37:06 <ChrisL> Vlad: at-risk features are still normative and are still tested
15:37:37 <ChrisL> jdaggett; at risk just lets us drop it later without another last call
15:38:31 <ChrisL> jdaggett: One way to get interop is that FO header goes in a spec, and people agree on a default if not present, so there is a middle ground. FO influences SOR or not
15:38:42 <ChrisL> ... that could get us interop
15:39:51 <ChrisL> jdaggett: One tricky thing, not clear which WG would have FO in its charter
15:40:11 <ChrisL> ... Hakon is pushing for HTML WG, seems not in scope there
15:40:22 <ChrisL> Vlad: Maciej mentioned WebApps
15:40:37 <ChrisL> jdaggett: That might be tricky from a rechartering perspective
15:41:04 <ChrisL> ... would have been etter to have these objections and alternate proposals when the charter was reviewed, rather than now
15:41:20 <ChrisL> s/etter/better/
15:41:50 <ChrisL> Vlad: any objections to marking SOR and CORS as at-risk
15:41:53 <ChrisL> (none heard)
15:42:20 <ChrisL> Vlad: Lets look at open actions
15:42:26 <ChrisL> topic: actions
15:42:45 <ChrisL> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/open
15:43:02 <ChrisL> action-52?
15:43:02 <trackbot> ACTION-52 -- Chris Lilley to respond to erik muller on pronunciation and sorting -- due 2010-12-08 -- OPEN
15:43:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/52
15:43:16 <ChrisL> jdaggett: mail today  - oh, different subject
15:43:26 <ChrisL> action-57?
15:43:26 <trackbot> ACTION-57 -- Jonathan Kew to respons on issue-14 -- due 2011-01-26 -- OPEN
15:43:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/57
15:43:50 <ChrisL> jfkthame: wil lget to it this week. its on direction attributes
15:43:55 <ChrisL> action-59?
15:43:55 <trackbot> ACTION-59 -- Chris Lilley to respond to I18n-ISSUE-2 -- due 2011-01-26 -- OPEN
15:43:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/59
15:44:07 <ChrisL> ChrisL: yes I did that one
15:44:17 <ChrisL> close action-59
15:44:17 <trackbot> ACTION-59 Respond to I18n-ISSUE-2 closed
15:44:49 <ChrisL> action-61?
15:44:49 <trackbot> ACTION-61 -- Chris Lilley to provide samples and respond to I18n -- due 2011-01-26 -- OPEN
15:44:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/61
15:45:27 <ChrisL> ChrisL: working on that before the call
15:45:32 <ChrisL> action-62?
15:45:32 <trackbot> ACTION-62 -- Jonathan Kew to modify spec text re. div and span in text elements -- due 2011-01-26 -- OPEN
15:45:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/62
15:45:37 <ChrisL> blocked on 61
15:46:15 <ChrisL> action-73?
15:46:15 <trackbot> ACTION-73 -- Chris Lilley to edit WOFF faq with Johns text incorporating Vlad's corrections -- due 2011-02-16 -- OPEN
15:46:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/73
15:46:30 <ChrisL> John: wil send some updates in the next couple of days
15:47:03 <ChrisL> action-75?
15:47:03 <trackbot> ACTION-75 -- John Daggett to contact Hakon regarding FO spec -- due 2011-02-23 -- OPEN
15:47:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/75
15:47:32 <ChrisL> jdaggett: yes that is done
15:47:38 <ChrisL> close action-75
15:47:39 <trackbot> ACTION-75 Contact Hakon regarding FO spec closed
15:49:03 <ChrisL> Vlad: OK so next call March 16th
15:49:06 <ChrisL> adjourned
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15:49:23 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
15:49:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
15:50:33 <ChrisL> Present: Vlad, Jdaggett, Christopher, Sergey, Erik, John, Chris, Tal, Jonathan
15:50:36 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
15:50:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
15:51:15 <ChrisL> s/Operaon/Opera on/
15:51:22 <ChrisL> s/allos/allows/
15:51:43 <ChrisL> s/arte/are/
15:52:01 <ChrisL> s/heare/here/
15:52:20 <ChrisL> s/woding/wording/
15:52:24 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
15:52:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
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