22:01:36 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
22:01:36 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/26-html-a11y-irc
22:01:41 <janina> zakim, this will be 2119
22:01:41 <Zakim> ok, janina; I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:00PM scheduled to start now
22:01:49 <janina> zakim, call janina
22:01:49 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
22:02:48 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
22:02:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/26-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
22:02:55 <janina> rrsagent, make log public
22:03:16 <janina> scribe: janina
22:03:28 <janina> regrets: geoff, judy
22:04:03 <JF> http://john.foliot.ca/
22:06:19 <janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
22:06:19 <janina> Chair:  John_Foliot
22:06:19 <janina> agenda: this
22:06:19 <janina> agenda+ Identify Scribe
22:06:19 <janina> agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
22:06:20 <janina> agenda+ Bug Review Followup
22:06:22 <janina> agenda+ Time Tracks Feedback from Google http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0152.html
22:06:25 <janina> agenda+ Synchronizing Multiple Binary Assets
22:06:27 <janina> agenda+ Media Queries on Track http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0145.html
22:06:29 <janina> agenda+ Poster Issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0054.html
22:06:31 <janina> agenda+ Media TextFormats Accessibility Comparison Summary Redux
22:06:33 <janina> agenda+ Other Business?
22:06:35 <janina> agenda+ be done
22:07:22 <janina>  zakim, who's here?
22:07:22 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(A11Y)5:00PM has not yet started, janina
22:07:23 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, eric_carlson, JF, MichaelC, trackbot, [tm]
22:08:36 <janina> zakim, take up agendum 1
22:08:36 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
22:08:48 <janina> So, Janina is scribing ...
22:08:52 <janina> zakim, close agendum 1
22:08:52 <Zakim> agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
22:08:53 <Zakim> I see 9 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:08:55 <Zakim> 2. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina]
22:08:59 <janina> zakim, next item
22:08:59 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from janina]
22:09:21 <janina> JF: Has submitted poster change proposal, so we can close Action-94
22:09:26 <JF> JF's change Proposal: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/PosterElement
22:11:01 <janina> Next, Action-95 asking media to revisit bug 1195 ...
22:11:14 <janina> JF: Think it's not a bug ...
22:11:49 <janina> JF: but Action-96 is to revisit Bug 11395
22:12:04 <janina> JF: So, Action-95 is probably in error and we should close it.
22:12:30 <janina> RE Action-96 -- Eric is following up with David Singer ...
22:13:08 <janina> Now Action-97 to follow up on Bug 9673 ...
22:13:15 <JF> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9673  
22:13:16 <JF> - Remove any reference to a specific Time Stamp format for video
22:13:18 <JF> captioning from the specification at this time.
22:14:23 <janina> JF: Wondering what to do, as references are generic
22:15:16 <janina> SH: I've left mine bug unresolved until Section 8.3.4, I believe
22:15:34 <janina> JF: So we should let it ride for now?
22:15:53 <janina> SH: Still hazy on the process--it'll get closed at some point ...
22:16:27 <janina> SH: Correction, it's Sec 10.3.2
22:17:02 <janina> JF: So we can close Action-97
22:17:36 <janina> Now on Action-98
22:17:54 <janina> JF: Eric you posted description of text formats, was that posted elsewhere?
22:18:07 <janina> JF: Ah, should be Sean drafted with Geoff
22:19:36 <janina> SH: Suggest the Media group should approve, and our chairs can forward to WCAG
22:20:53 <janina> JF: Will post to TF list asking for CFC
22:21:49 <janina> JS: Need more time on my action
22:22:04 <janina> zakim, next agendum
22:22:04 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Bug Review Followup" taken up [from janina]
22:22:33 <janina> zakim, close agendum
22:22:33 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close agendum', janina
22:22:40 <janina> zakim, close agendum 3
22:22:40 <Zakim> agendum 3, Bug Review Followup, closed
22:22:41 <Zakim> I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:22:42 <Zakim> 4. Time Tracks Feedback from Google http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0152.html [from janina]
22:22:49 <janina> zakim, take up next item
22:22:49 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Time Tracks Feedback from Google http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0152.html" taken up [from janina]
22:23:25 <janina> JF: We were expecting Silvia would walk us through this, but she's unable to join today, so we'll defer this item.
22:23:30 <janina> zakim, next agendum
22:23:30 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, janina
22:23:38 <janina> zakim, close agendum 4
22:23:38 <Zakim> agendum 4, Time Tracks Feedback from Google http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0152.html, closed
22:23:40 <Zakim> I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:23:42 <Zakim> 5. Synchronizing Multiple Binary Assets [from janina]
22:23:46 <janina> zakim, next agendum
22:23:46 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Synchronizing Multiple Binary Assets" taken up [from janina]
22:24:19 <janina> JF: Is Media Queries a way to do multiple binary assets?
22:24:23 <janina> EC: No, it's different
22:24:36 <janina> EC: Not convinced it's a gap we can close, it's a big deal
22:25:23 <janina> JF: So, we have src, can we use @kind to declare available binary? Is that a partial solution?
22:25:39 <janina> EC: Yes, there's a proposal Silvia wrote asking to generalize track to work with nontextual tracks
22:26:11 <janina> EC: Issue is keeping things in sync when timelines aren't exact
22:26:30 <janina> SH: Even if they are the same, there's still no sync concept
22:27:21 <janina> JS: Also an issue for i18n alternative audio
22:27:33 <janina> SH: Yes, a call for proposals is out but no proposals yet
22:28:11 <janina> EC: Agree with Sean that we don't have a mechanism to sync multiple media elements
22:28:36 <janina> EC: Don't think it will be that hard to have external files playing in sync, assuming timelines play in sync
22:29:20 <janina> JF: We've had a flash player that supported audio description, just based on firing both files at the same time
22:29:32 <janina> EC: Yes, we'll have that
22:30:11 <janina> JF: Sign translation needs to be close, but not as precise as audio description
22:30:49 <janina> EC: Think we can get good sync if timelines of files are correctly authored, media engine will sync
22:31:07 <janina> EC: We have no mechanism for discontinuity in timelines
22:31:31 <janina> JF: And also the requirement to navigate by chapter or smaller unit
22:31:35 <janina> EC: Not a problem
22:31:53 <janina> EC: Only discontinuities are a problem. Describing the nonlinear relationship is what's missing.
22:32:08 <janina> SH: Not sure I agree that's all that's issing
22:32:25 <janina> SH: Concerned about drift after a few minutes
22:33:01 <janina> EC: As long as we're only talking about child elements, the audio hw clock should manage the sync
22:33:14 <janina> EC: If we expect script to do the sync, that's different.
22:33:26 <janina> SH: Well, not what I'm hearing ...
22:33:45 <janina> JF: So, we should return on this?
22:33:58 <janina> EC: We need to followup with Silvia to make sure this is moving forward.
22:34:05 <janina> JF: OK
22:34:28 <janina> zakim, next agendum
22:34:28 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Media Queries on Track http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0145.html" taken up [from janina]
22:34:38 <janina> JF: Nothing to do?
22:34:44 <janina> JS: Yes, we've checked in already.
22:34:48 <janina> zakim, close agendum 6
22:34:48 <Zakim> agendum 6, Media Queries on Track http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0145.html, closed
22:34:51 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:34:51 <janina> zakim, next agendum
22:34:52 <Zakim> 7. Poster Issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0054.html [from janina]
22:34:55 <Zakim> agendum 7. "Poster Issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0054.html" taken up [from janina]
22:35:53 <janina> JF: Have a change proposal on this ...
22:36:19 <JF> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/PosterElement
22:36:51 <janina> JF: So, I believe there are use cases where we need ml in exposing poster info, i18n specifically
22:37:04 <janina> JF: Fairly common in video
22:37:29 <janina> JF: A main reason why I propose we set it up as child id
22:38:18 <janina> JF: Problem is that an attribute cannot except attributes
22:39:10 <janina> JF: Screen readers can pronounce correctly if lang identified
22:40:02 <janina> JF: I'm in sync with how we handle specifying caption in Italian vs a second captioning file in French
22:40:31 <janina> JF: Seems the benefit is more than a11y, also generally important for i18n
22:41:01 <janina> EC: Agree about applying attribute, but don't believe we need to
22:41:36 <janina> EC: If first frame needs description, it should be described as a part of the video resource itself
22:42:05 <janina> EC: I believe this is also Silvia's point.
22:43:26 <janina> JF: Pattern I'm proposing requires nothing new, uses pieces of what we already have.
22:43:58 <janina> EC: Isn't it more important to describe the video resource thoroughly?
22:44:05 <janina> JS: Yes, but aren't these two separate things?
22:46:23 <janina> JS: So how would it look--John's examples--if we described the posteer in its video resource description? What's the ml?
22:47:03 <janina> EC: Additional problem is first frame description only makes sense until the move starts.
22:47:54 <janina> JF: So, once user starts the video, there's an action that's exposed to browser and can be passed to AT, so blanking could be done.
22:48:43 <janina> EC: I'm asking what the appropriate thing to do is?
22:49:38 <janina> EC: So ua needs to querry for time=0?
22:49:41 <janina> JF: Perhaps
22:51:32 <janina> JF: There are poster content examples where alt is insufficient because it's not intended for that much text. That's in addition to i18n.
22:51:52 <janina> SH: Firstframe shouldn't be void element
22:52:08 <janina> SH: Would prefer that alternative text not be an attribute.
22:52:15 <janina> JF: Agree.
22:55:41 <janina> JS: Propose we take a set of example first.frame/poster images and ask for ml proposals to expose that info.
22:56:02 <janina> SH: So, Eric, you're in agreement with the no change proposal?
22:56:04 <janina> EC: Yes.
22:58:01 <janina> JF: Seems there are two things that need proof ...
22:58:07 <janina> JF: Is my ml most efficient?
22:58:19 <janina> JF: Compare some real world images--I only did two.
23:01:54 <janina> SH: Agree that the stronger the use cases, the better.
23:02:12 <janina> SH: If can show ml and real world examples, should be more suasive.
23:03:48 <janina> JS: Think identifying the pieces of info by classification is helpful. Not comfortable with a runon block of text.
23:05:05 <janina> SH: You're using area-describedby to point to synopsis, it's been argued it should point to the transcript.
23:05:21 <janina> SH: I believe we need another mechanism for transcript.
23:05:22 <silvia> silvia has joined #html-a11y
23:06:22 <janina> SH: Concerned that describedby is autovoiced without user action
23:07:00 <janina> SH: We currently have no mechanism for transcript, I think?
23:07:00 <JF> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#attr-track-kind
23:07:12 <janina> JF: believe one of the @kind is transcript, ... looking ...
23:07:19 <janina> JF: Ah, it's not there!
23:07:49 <janina> JS: Should be the same as caption or text description
23:08:01 <janina> SH: Think we're not covered, 
23:08:09 <janina> JF: Another @kind term?
23:08:12 <janina> SH: Yes
23:08:24 <JF> Hi silvia, can you join the call as well?
23:08:36 <silvia> oh, is it happening right now?
23:08:47 <JF> since an hour already
23:08:50 <JF> <grin>
23:09:16 <JF> OK
23:09:24 <JF> we think we are close to wrapping up
23:09:25 <silvia> sorry - but I will participate here
23:09:43 <janina> zakim, new agendum
23:09:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'new agendum', janina
23:10:29 <janina> SH: What did we decide between using screen reader or TTS directly to voice texted description?
23:10:48 <janina> JF: Isn't IBM Japan our info source on this?
23:11:14 <silvia> IBM Japan - as per the meeting we had in November - is keen to be able to have both supported
23:11:51 <JF> Janina has concerns about using the screen reader, as it introduces complexity to use the SR for other actions
23:11:55 <silvia> the demo I gave of a screen reader doing text descriptions was well received
23:11:56 <janina> JS: Problem with relying on the screen reader is now there's this constant media thing that interferes with the user's ability to control the computer.
23:12:32 <silvia> no different that other aria-live javascript activities
23:12:38 <janina> Yes
23:12:58 <janina> But we don't know a lot about that yet. It's all pretty new.
23:13:17 <janina> JF: For next week's agenda?
23:13:19 <janina> JS: Yes
23:13:20 <silvia> I would assume that when you are watching a video you are focused on the video and not doing other things on the page, so I don't know if there are many other things reading out at the same time
23:14:05 <janina> JS: yes, Silvia, but you need the option to grab control and do something different quickly, like mute the video and answer an incoming call on your voip windoqw.
23:14:07 <JF> proposing to put this topic on agenda for next week
23:14:36 <silvia> that option is not influenced by the screen reader reading out text description cues
23:15:09 <silvia> they are short text blips read out by the screen reader - no interruption of interactivity
23:15:46 <janina> Yeah, we kind of went back to poster ...
23:20:09 <janina> JF: We're adjourned.
23:20:18 <janina> zakim, bye
23:20:18 <Zakim> Zakim has left #html-a11y
23:20:24 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
23:20:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/26-html-a11y-minutes.html janina
23:22:13 <silvia> see you next week!