IRC log of ua on 2011-01-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:05:07 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-ua-irc
17:05:09 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:05:11 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:05:12 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:05:14 [trackbot]
Date: 13 January 2011
17:05:18 [Zakim]
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17:05:20 [JAllan]
chair: JimAllan
17:05:29 [JAllan]
regrets: KFord
17:05:58 [JAllan]
regrets+JSpellman
17:26:07 [JAllan]
Agenda+ schedule F2F and/or video conference
17:26:56 [JAllan]
agenda+ survey items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110111/results
17:28:01 [JAllan]
agenda+ replacing, hiding images http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0010.html
17:30:06 [JAllan]
agenda+ from HTML-A11Y UA behavior for missing content http://www.w3.org/2011/01/12-html-a11y-minutes.html
17:54:41 [JAllan]
zakim, who is here
17:54:41 [Zakim]
JAllan, you need to end that query with '?'
17:54:47 [JAllan]
zakim, who is here?
17:54:47 [Zakim]
sorry, JAllan, I don't know what conference this is
17:54:48 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
17:55:20 [JAllan]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:55:20 [Zakim]
ok, JAllan, I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM already started
17:55:31 [JAllan]
zakim, who is here?
17:55:31 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jim_Allan
17:55:32 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
17:58:05 [Greg]
Greg has joined #ua
17:59:10 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.895.aaaa
17:59:21 [Greg]
zakim, aaaa is me
17:59:21 [Zakim]
+Greg; got it
18:00:37 [sharper]
sharper has joined #ua
18:01:38 [Zakim]
+??P19
18:01:57 [sharper]
zakim, ??P19 is sharper
18:01:57 [Zakim]
+sharper; got it
18:05:53 [JAllan]
zakim, who is here?
18:05:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jim_Allan, Greg, sharper
18:05:54 [Zakim]
On IRC I see sharper, Greg, Zakim, RRSAgent, JAllan, trackbot
18:06:14 [Zakim]
+??P1
18:06:22 [sharper]
I'm here - i can't hear you guys either
18:06:28 [sharper]
let me reconnect
18:06:36 [Zakim]
-sharper
18:08:25 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:08:44 [Jan]
zakim, code?
18:08:44 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan
18:09:38 [Zakim]
+??P3
18:09:48 [Jan]
zakim, ??P3 is really Jan
18:09:48 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:11:11 [Jan]
Simon - want to connect via Skype?
18:13:48 [JAllan]
zakim, agenda?
18:13:48 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:13:50 [Zakim]
1. schedule F2F and/or video conference [from JAllan]
18:13:52 [Zakim]
2. survey items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110111/results [from JAllan]
18:13:55 [Zakim]
3. replacing, hiding images http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0010.html [from JAllan]
18:13:58 [Zakim]
4. from HTML-A11Y UA behavior for missing content http://www.w3.org/2011/01/12-html-a11y-minutes.html [from JAllan]
18:14:47 [Jan]
zakim, Jan also has Simon
18:14:47 [Zakim]
+Simon; got it
18:16:10 [sharper]
I'm here
18:16:12 [sharper]
no
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not muted\
18:16:26 [sharper]
let me see
18:17:20 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 1
18:17:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "schedule F2F and/or video conference" taken up [from JAllan]
18:17:46 [mhakkinen]
mhakkinen has joined #ua
18:17:50 [JAllan]
We could meet during CSUN
18:18:05 [JAllan]
MH -
18:18:13 [JAllan]
JR -1
18:18:21 [JAllan]
GL +1
18:18:33 [JAllan]
SH _1
18:18:44 [JAllan]
Js and JA +1
18:20:15 [JAllan]
schedule longer telecons, or 2 day marathons.
18:20:54 [JAllan]
JR: 3 hour telecons were helpful for ATAG
18:21:50 [JAllan]
MH: 3 or 4 hour calls would be better
18:22:18 [JAllan]
SH: 3 + hours ok, with enough scheduling.
18:23:12 [JAllan]
gl: not sure if video is so useful.
18:23:45 [JAllan]
JR: skype has video conferencing 7 days free.
18:24:23 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 1
18:24:23 [Zakim]
agendum 1, schedule F2F and/or video conference, closed
18:24:24 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
18:24:26 [Zakim]
2. survey items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110111/results [from JAllan]
18:24:30 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 2
18:24:30 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "survey items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110111/results" taken up [from JAllan]
18:25:00 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
18:25:07 [JAllan]
scribenic: jallan
18:27:26 [JAllan]
rewriting 3.3.4.
18:27:43 [JAllan]
gl: comment: Just an aside, would this mean that the accessibility section of a product's documentation needs to list the fact that it complies with standards for HTML, CSS, SVG, etc.? Of course, no user agent actually does fully comply with all those standards, so do we expect them to say they "substantially" comply with or implement them?
18:30:52 [Greg]
Relevant SC: 5.4.1 (former 1.4.1) Follow Specifications: Render content according to the technology specification, except where it would actually harm overall accessibility. (Level A)
18:30:56 [JAllan]
discussion of GL comment.
18:32:16 [JAllan]
jr: only applies to things that meet the requirements of UAAG 2
18:33:44 [JAllan]
JR: IER - or applicability note. when we talk about supporting a technology it means the parts of the technology we support
18:34:26 [Greg]
Jan discussing: 5.3.1 (former 1.3.1) Accessibility Features: Implement and cite in the conformance claim the accessibility features of content and platform technology specifications. Accessibility features are those that are either (Level A) : * identified as such in the specification or * allow authors to satisfy a requirement of WCAG.
18:34:48 [JAllan]
JR 2 kinds of accessibility features - alt text 5.3.1
18:35:37 [Jan]
5.3.1 (former 1.3.1) Accessibility Features: Implement and cite in the conformance claim the accessibility features of content and platform technology specifications. Accessibility features are those that are either (Level A):
18:35:38 [Jan]
* identified as such in the specification or
18:35:40 [Jan]
* allow authors to satisfy a requirement of WCAG.
18:35:44 [JAllan]
... accessibility of the UA, a different SC
18:37:12 [JAllan]
jr: UA must explain how its features work, e.g. how it indicates longdesc
18:37:41 [JAllan]
3.3.4 Centralized View: There is a dedicated section of the documentation which presents a centralized view of all features of the user agent necessary to meet the requirements of this document.
18:38:48 [Zakim]
+KimPatch
18:39:02 [KimPatch]
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18:39:56 [JAllan]
action: jeanne to add 3.3.4 Centralized View: There is a dedicated section of the documentation which presents a centralized of all features of the user agent necessary to meet the requirements of User Agent Accessibility Guidelines 2.0.
18:39:56 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-484 - Add 3.3.4 Centralized View: There is a dedicated section of the documentation which presents a centralized of all features of the user agent necessary to meet the requirements of User Agent Accessibility Guidelines 2.0. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2011-01-20].
18:41:56 [JAllan]
topic: ACTION-480 - Rewrite 3.3.2 to mirror ATAG
18:42:44 [Greg]
The phrase "this document" should be changed to "User Agent Accessibility Guidelines 2.0" (or possibly just "UAAG 2.0") in all SC.
18:44:28 [JAllan]
action: Jeanne to replace "this document" with "User Agent Accessibility Guidelines 2.0" (or possibly just "UAAG 2.0") in all SC.
18:44:28 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-485 - Replace "this document" with "User Agent Accessibility Guidelines 2.0" (or possibly just "UAAG 2.0") in all SC. [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2011-01-20].
18:45:41 [JAllan]
discussion intent for 3.3.2
18:51:23 [JAllan]
jr: sees SC as very user level. the last paragraph should be more general
18:52:56 [JAllan]
gl: perhaps explain how the user can get the most accessibility out of the UA.
18:53:06 [JAllan]
jr: good idea.
18:54:35 [JAllan]
kp: there should be some basic instructions, that helps users use the product.
18:55:18 [JAllan]
gl: goal of this sc is to provide the user with the information they need to accessibly use the UA.
18:55:37 [Greg]
We want to explain that and why user agent documentation needs to explain how users find, adjust, and use accessibility features.
18:57:45 [JAllan]
action: jim to rewrite 3.3.2 to expand on 'documented' to include- how users find, adjust, and use accessibility features
18:57:45 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-486 - Rewrite 3.3.2 to expand on 'documented' to include- how users find, adjust, and use accessibility features [on Jim Allan - due 2011-01-20].
18:58:28 [Greg]
Do we want to require/recommend that user agent documentation should include what portions of standards (e.g. HTML, CSS) are not supported? If so, does that fit into this SC or into a new SC? (Currently it's explicitly mentioned only in the final paragraph of the Intent.)
19:01:10 [Greg]
A concrete example is a user who wants to install a user-supplied stylesheet that displays alt text after each image. If a browser does not support generated content in this way, because that's one of the small bits of the CSS standard which it does not fully implement, should the user be able to figure that out from product documentation (included with or on its web site), rather than spend...
19:01:12 [Greg]
...days trying to experiment and bang their head against the wall trying to figure out why it's not working.
19:01:44 [JAllan]
jr: makes sense. from a conformance perspective, this is informative.
19:02:24 [JAllan]
this is a level A requirement, features are documents. if we want things specifically documented, then it needs to be in the SC
19:04:04 [Greg]
Jan suggests that requiring documentation of the details of what portions of technology specs are supported should be lower priority, such as AA or AAA.
19:05:45 [JAllan]
KP: +1
19:06:01 [JAllan]
GL: +1, but not a deal breaker
19:06:37 [JAllan]
MH: +1
19:06:42 [JAllan]
Sh: +1
19:06:53 [JAllan]
JR: +1
19:07:05 [JAllan]
JA: +1
19:07:49 [JAllan]
Action: Greg to write proposal requiring documentation of the details of what portions of technology specs are supported should be lower priority, such as AA or AAA.
19:07:49 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-487 - Write proposal requiring documentation of the details of what portions of technology specs are supported should be lower priority, such as AA or AAA. [on Greg Lowney - due 2011-01-20].
19:08:35 [JAllan]
zakim, close item 2
19:08:35 [Zakim]
agendum 2, survey items http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20110111/results, closed
19:08:37 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:08:39 [Zakim]
3. replacing, hiding images http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011JanMar/0010.html [from JAllan]
19:09:02 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 4
19:09:02 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "from HTML-A11Y UA behavior for missing content http://www.w3.org/2011/01/12-html-a11y-minutes.html" taken up [from JAllan]
19:12:52 [JAllan]
scenario: video is opened, it has captions, but they don't work, what should UA do, inform user
19:13:12 [JAllan]
GL: should be AA or AAA
19:14:14 [JAllan]
JR: where does this end, what if wai-aria-describe-by, but no target, does user get informed
19:14:47 [JAllan]
should UA inform user that captions that were supposed to play are not available?
19:15:11 [JAllan]
KP: yes,
19:15:31 [JAllan]
GL: +/-
19:15:49 [JAllan]
MH: +/- with lean on yes
19:16:13 [JAllan]
SH: -, agree with JR, where will it end
19:16:20 [JAllan]
JR: -
19:16:27 [Greg]
I wouldn't want to be prescriptive of HOW the message is presented. And I'm not sure a requirement on error messages is needed, as I don't see a major difference between a video with no captions and a video with missing captions. I don't think any user agent won't play the video just because captions can't be found, but OK with explicitly requiring it if people want to.
19:16:45 [JAllan]
JR: low priority.
19:18:32 [JAllan]
kp: sees a user, needs captions, but they have a setting wrong.
19:18:51 [JAllan]
jr: need to complain to provider.
19:19:35 [JAllan]
kp: user needs to know that captions are provided but are broken.
19:20:56 [Greg]
Another equivalent scenario, like Jan's on described-by, would be a web page that includes a remote image; if the remote image was unavailable, would you require that the user agent put some placeholder, rather than allowing it to just omit the missing image altogether? Sure, we might consider showing a placeholder to be better design, but is it important enough to warrant a success criterion?
19:22:51 [Greg]
Any SC addressing this issue for captions would also apply to audio description. Would it be generalized to any form of alternative content?
19:23:45 [mhakkinen]
+1 to gl
19:26:49 [Zakim]
-??P1
19:26:52 [Zakim]
-KimPatch
19:26:53 [Zakim]
-Jan
19:26:55 [Zakim]
-Jim_Allan
19:27:05 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:27:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:27:09 [Zakim]
-Greg
19:27:11 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
19:27:13 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jim_Allan, +1.425.895.aaaa, Greg, sharper, Jan, Simon, KimPatch
19:27:47 [JAllan]
zakim, please part
19:27:47 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
19:29:26 [JAllan]
rrsagent, draft minutes
19:29:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:29:33 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
19:29:33 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-ua-actions.rdf :
19:29:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jeanne to add 3.3.4 Centralized View: There is a dedicated section of the documentation which presents a centralized of all features of the user agent necessary to meet the requirements of User Agent Accessibility Guidelines 2.0. [1]
19:29:33 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-ua-irc#T18-39-56
19:29:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jeanne to replace "this document" with "User Agent Accessibility Guidelines 2.0" (or possibly just "UAAG 2.0") in all SC. [2]
19:29:33 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-ua-irc#T18-44-28
19:29:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jim to rewrite 3.3.2 to expand on 'documented' to include- how users find, adjust, and use accessibility features [3]
19:29:33 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-ua-irc#T18-57-45
19:29:33 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Greg to write proposal requiring documentation of the details of what portions of technology specs are supported should be lower priority, such as AA or AAA. [4]
19:29:33 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/13-ua-irc#T19-07-49