IRC log of webevents on 2011-01-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:00:22 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #webevents
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logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-webevents-irc
16:00:28 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log Public
16:00:37 [ArtB]
ScribeNick: ArtB
16:00:37 [ArtB]
Scribe: Art
16:00:37 [ArtB]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JanMar/0001.html
16:00:37 [ArtB]
Chair: Art
16:00:37 [ArtB]
Meeting: Web Events WG Voice Conference
16:00:37 [ArtB]
Date: 11 January 2011
16:01:19 [cathy]
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16:01:40 [Zakim]
+ +46.3.13.48.aabb
16:01:44 [Zakim]
- +46.3.13.48.aabb
16:01:44 [Zakim]
+ +46.3.13.48.aabb
16:02:07 [ArtB]
zakim, aabb is Anders
16:02:08 [Zakim]
+Anders; got it
16:03:00 [Zakim]
+??P19
16:03:10 [Sangwhan_Moon]
zakim, P19 is me
16:03:26 [Zakim]
+Shepazu
16:03:30 [Zakim]
sorry, Sangwhan_Moon, I do not recognize a party named 'P19'
16:03:45 [Sangwhan_Moon]
zakim, +??P19 is me
16:03:49 [ArtB]
zakim, ??P19 is Sangwhan_Moon
16:03:55 [Sangwhan_Moon]
zakim, mute me
16:04:08 [Zakim]
sorry, Sangwhan_Moon, I do not recognize a party named '+??P19'
16:04:10 [Zakim]
+Sangwhan_Moon; got it
16:04:13 [Zakim]
Sangwhan_Moon should now be muted
16:04:14 [ArtB]
Present: Art_Barstow, Cathy_Chan, Anders_Höckersten, Sangwhan_Moon, Doug_Schepers
16:04:16 [shepazu]
Zakim, code?
16:04:20 [Zakim]
the conference code is 9231 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), shepazu
16:04:23 [Sangwhan_Moon]
zakim, unmute me
16:04:23 [Zakim]
Sangwhan_Moon should no longer be muted
16:04:55 [ArtB]
Topic: Tweak the agenda
16:05:08 [mbrubeck]
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16:05:09 [ArtB]
AH: I work for Opera in Sweden
16:05:26 [ArtB]
Present+ Matt_Brubeck
16:05:28 [mbrubeck]
sorry I'm late, dialing in now
16:05:36 [ArtB]
AB: agenda posted yesterday ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JanMar/0001.html ). Any change requests?
16:06:04 [ArtB]
DS: I have some additions
16:06:13 [Zakim]
+ +1.206.697.aacc
16:06:17 [mbrubeck]
That's me
16:06:19 [ArtB]
... there is a proposal from Nokia to talk about
16:06:34 [shepazu]
shepazu has changed the topic to: #webevents · touch interfaces, intentional events, and bears, oh my! · telcon code: 9231
16:06:36 [ArtB]
... there is another issue we didn't cover in D3E that we may want to capture here
16:06:42 [ArtB]
... and that is mouse capture
16:06:53 [ArtB]
AB: we can include them during the specs topic
16:07:09 [bo_chen]
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16:07:09 [ArtB]
Topic: Use Cases and requirements
16:07:16 [ArtB]
AB: other than the UCs and requirements Cathy sent to the list last month ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2010OctDec/0005.html ), there have been no additional UCs and requirements inputs. I encourage everyone to submit them.
16:07:35 [timeless_mbp]
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16:08:21 [Zakim]
+ +1.850.486.aadd
16:08:22 [ArtB]
AB: Cathy, are the UCs and requirements in your input addressed by the spec you submitted to the WG yesterday?
16:08:43 [ArtB]
CC: yes, I believe they are
16:08:53 [ArtB]
AB: ok; just wanted to clarify
16:09:55 [ArtB]
AB: the requirements are required in later stages of the W3C recommendation process
16:10:01 [ArtB]
Topic: Landscape wiki
16:10:07 [ArtB]
AB: Doug and I added a couple of additional resources to the landscape wiki ( http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/wiki/Landscape ). Everyone should consider that wiki as community property and edit/update accordingly.
16:10:42 [ArtB]
AB: any other comments on this wiki?
16:11:45 [ArtB]
CC: in the landscape is a link to Ilkka's proposal
16:12:09 [ArtB]
... and it is same doc that I submitted to the list yesterday
16:12:22 [ArtB]
... as such, the wiki should be updated to just point to the doc I submitted
16:12:51 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow update the landscape doc so that Ilkka's spec is replaced with Cathy's spec of Jan 10
16:12:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-2 - Update the landscape doc so that Ilkka's spec is replaced with Cathy's spec of Jan 10 [on Arthur Barstow - due 2011-01-18].
16:12:52 [shepazu]
shepazu has changed the topic to: #webevents ✍ touch interfaces, intentional events, and bears, oh my! ✌ telcon code: 9231
16:13:01 [ArtB]
Topic: Specs
16:13:26 [ArtB]
AB: Doug, what's the status of your initial drafts?
16:13:58 [ArtB]
DS: I created some initial drafts
16:14:04 [ArtB]
... not quite ready to be checked in
16:14:17 [ArtB]
... hope to get something to review by the end of this week
16:14:47 [ArtB]
... I may use CVS rather than Mercurial
16:15:01 [ArtB]
AB: that is fine with me
16:15:20 [ArtB]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:15:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:15:36 [shepazu]
mouse capture: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9557
16:15:54 [ArtB]
AB: Cathy submitted an input to the list yesterday ( http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2011JanMar/att-0002/TransformActionProposal.html ).
16:16:31 [ArtB]
CC: the spec we are proposing addresses the representation level of user interactions
16:16:48 [ArtB]
... physical touch events from UA to web apps is very low level
16:17:08 [ArtB]
... our spec introduces higher level action such as zoom, pan
16:17:15 [ArtB]
... have a transaction start event
16:17:39 [ArtB]
... and then update events that include data like the action e.g. pan/zoom/etc.
16:17:53 [ArtB]
... Allows authors to use high level events
16:18:46 [ArtB]
AB: any intial questions or comments for Cathy?
16:19:09 [ArtB]
DS: I think this is a good match for the existing transforms for SVG and CSS
16:19:24 [ArtB]
CC: ok
16:19:48 [ArtB]
MB: do you have a specific/concrete interaction that would trigger these events?
16:19:59 [ArtB]
... e.g. 3 fingers on a touch screen
16:20:00 [shepazu]
q+
16:20:05 [ArtB]
CC: that's up to the UA
16:20:20 [ArtB]
... e.g. multiple touches, shaking device
16:20:29 [ArtB]
... meant to be open to the impl
16:20:39 [ArtB]
MB: have you doen any impl work with this?
16:20:50 [ArtB]
... want to know how it works with the DOM
16:20:58 [ArtB]
CC: we did some impl in Starlight project
16:21:05 [ArtB]
... and it uses multi-touch
16:21:14 [ArtB]
... my email to the list included a link
16:21:59 [ArtB]
SM: scale and rotate are the same events
16:22:03 [mbrubeck]
The link http://opensource.nokia.com/Starlight currently redirects to http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.php/Nokia_Open_Source
16:22:07 [ArtB]
... wondering why they weren't separated
16:22:30 [ArtB]
DS: I believe the intent is to allow any given gesture to comprise more than one compent
16:22:40 [ArtB]
... could do more than one thing
16:23:17 [ArtB]
... if scroll up and to the right, don't know if user is trying two things or one
16:23:21 [mbrubeck]
If you think of using these events to implement a UI like http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/08/firefox4-beta3/
16:23:33 [mbrubeck]
then it makes sense that it would rotate and scale simultaneously.
16:24:11 [cathy]
The link to starlight should be: http://starlight-webkit.org/Starlight/
16:24:40 [ArtB]
MB: the example above does two things at once
16:24:51 [ArtB]
DS: yes; this would scale and rotate
16:26:00 [ArtB]
Present+ Josh_Soref
16:26:09 [ArtB]
zakim, aacc is Mark_Brubeck
16:26:09 [Zakim]
+Mark_Brubeck; got it
16:26:28 [mbrubeck]
s/Mark/Matt
16:26:30 [ArtB]
DS: so Mark, do you agree with that aspect of the TransAction spec?
16:27:20 [ArtB]
s/Mark/Matt/
16:28:04 [ArtB]
MB: yes, I think this is a reasonable constraint
16:28:45 [ArtB]
DS: someone asked if we are going to have literal mapping of 2 fingers on screen and one somewhere else and tie them to specific gestures
16:29:08 [ArtB]
... we need to map between a defined gesture and an action such as zoom/pan/rotate
16:29:53 [ArtB]
... it would be appropriate for us in our non-normative docs to outline specific gesture such as 3 finger down means something like zoom/pan/rotate
16:30:12 [ArtB]
AB: thanks for clarifying that
16:30:43 [shepazu]
agenda+ mechanism for yoking specific physical actions to intentional events
16:31:06 [ArtB]
Topic: Mouse Capture
16:31:11 [Sangwhan_Moon]
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9557
16:31:17 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:31:17 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:31:28 [shepazu]
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9557
16:31:48 [ArtB]
DS: if you grab the scrollbar and move it up/down and then the mouse strays off the scrollbar
16:32:08 [ArtB]
... or if you scroll down on a dropdown list
16:32:38 [ArtB]
... We talked about defining this in D3Events
16:33:05 [ArtB]
... and then thought Mouse Capture should be defined in this WG
16:33:16 [ArtB]
... have been implemented in IE and perhaps Gecko
16:33:20 [mbrubeck]
https://developer.mozilla.org/en/DOM/element.setCapture
16:33:34 [mbrubeck]
"Introduced in Gecko 2.0"
16:33:40 [mbrubeck]
(i.e. Firefox 4)
16:33:55 [ArtB]
... Authors will want to do similar things for their own custom UI elements (widgets)
16:34:50 [ArtB]
DS: the bug report is about setCapture and releaseCapture
16:35:28 [ArtB]
... My intent, unless there is an objection, is to define setCapture and releaseCapture
16:35:43 [ArtB]
AB: you would define them in one of the specs you already commited or a new spec?
16:35:53 [ArtB]
DS: not a great fit for either one of them
16:36:10 [smaug_]
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16:36:12 [ArtB]
... could go in either spec
16:36:26 [ArtB]
AB: perhaps a new/separate spec
16:36:48 [ArtB]
DS: it's more low-level
16:36:56 [ArtB]
... so that is probably more appropriate
16:37:13 [timeless_mbp]
q+ to discuss concerns
16:37:18 [timeless_mbp]
ack shepazu
16:37:21 [ArtB]
AB: is there any spec in W3C that defines these?
16:37:23 [Sangwhan_Moon]
q+
16:37:28 [ArtB]
DS: no, I don't think so
16:37:56 [timeless_mbp]
ack me yielding to Sangwhan_Moon
16:37:57 [ArtB]
SM: this may have some security implications
16:38:08 [timeless_mbp]
Zakim: ack me yielding to Sangwhan_Moon
16:38:11 [timeless_mbp]
q-
16:38:13 [ArtB]
... and may not work with platform widgets
16:38:20 [ArtB]
... could have some interop problems
16:38:33 [ArtB]
... may need a visual indicator so user doesn't get confused
16:38:50 [ArtB]
DS: I think we can deal with this in the security section of the spec
16:39:13 [ArtB]
... agree there is at least one security issue here
16:39:50 [ArtB]
... If a widget overlays everything on the screen and events are sent to a snooping server, there could be a prob
16:40:14 [ArtB]
... Think a security note for implementations would address the problem
16:40:58 [timeless_mbp]
I'm concerned about security. But i don't object to it being added to Low Level
16:41:01 [ArtB]
AB: does anyone object to setCapture and releaseCapture being included in Dougs's low-leve spec?
16:41:35 [ArtB]
... adding something does not mean discussion is ended
16:41:38 [timeless_mbp]
ack Sangwhan_Moon
16:41:59 [ArtB]
DS: yes, adding it the spec just starts the conversation
16:42:21 [ArtB]
RESOLUTION: group agrees setCapture and releaseCapture events will be added to the low-level spec
16:42:49 [shepazu]
agenda?
16:43:08 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:43:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:44:00 [ArtB]
DS: in the charter, says an author can map low level events to high level intenstional events
16:44:15 [ArtB]
... e.g. a double-tap can mean something special in my app
16:44:36 [ArtB]
... and override the UA's default behaviour which could be zoom/pan
16:45:01 [ArtB]
... We won't define specific gestures
16:45:14 [ArtB]
... but could define a way to define gestures
16:45:38 [ArtB]
AH: this would lead to device specific pages
16:45:55 [ArtB]
DS: that can be done today; can't stop it
16:46:29 [ArtB]
AB: so you want to know if this would be useful?
16:46:42 [ArtB]
DS: yes, and if so, want to know if there are solutions
16:47:01 [timeless_mbp]
so,...
16:47:08 [ArtB]
AB: you may want to pose this on the list
16:47:18 [timeless_mbp]
i'd like to let an app expose a way to tell users...
16:47:28 [ArtB]
DS: don't think we need a decision now but we do need to take a stand
16:47:28 [timeless_mbp]
"I have these actions available" <graphical-list>
16:47:38 [timeless_mbp]
"You can select an action"
16:47:43 [ArtB]
... Don't want to over engineer the problem
16:47:49 [timeless_mbp]
"Please gesture to define how to trigger this action"
16:47:52 [ArtB]
... but I think people will ask for something like this
16:48:07 [timeless_mbp]
that would enable the user to train a local gesture to map to a high level custom event
16:48:09 [ArtB]
AB: agree, in the abstract, something like that would be useful
16:48:49 [ArtB]
DS: customization would be especially useful for Accessibility use cases
16:49:15 [timeless_mbp]
Accessibility for disadvantaged users and users of disadvantaged devices :)
16:50:23 [ArtB]
ACTION schepers ask the mail list for specific proposals re custom low-level to high-level event mapping
16:50:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-3 - Ask the mail list for specific proposals re custom low-level to high-level event mapping [on Doug Schepers - due 2011-01-18].
16:51:02 [ArtB]
AB: +1 to Sangwhan re tricky to implement
16:51:10 [ArtB]
DS: agree; perhaps a v2 feature
16:51:27 [timeless_mbp]
fwiw, i worry that we might not encourage vendors to do this, even though i think it'll be rather important for certain devices (esp legacy)
16:51:40 [ArtB]
AB: anything else before AoB
16:51:50 [ArtB]
DS: AoB = any other business
16:51:54 [ArtB]
Topic: AoB
16:51:59 [ArtB]
AB: next call?
16:52:41 [ArtB]
DS: don't want a call until after I have something published
16:53:01 [ArtB]
... schedule a call for next week and we will cancel it if I can't a spec out to review
16:53:02 [mbrubeck]
I added a link to a useful starlight doc/spec page on http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/wiki/Landscape
16:53:28 [ArtB]
DS: who volunteered to Edit?
16:53:32 [ArtB]
SM: I did
16:53:37 [ArtB]
MB: me too
16:53:53 [ArtB]
SM: I prefer Mercurial but with a doc, CVS is fine
16:54:12 [timeless_mbp]
(I'm still on record as offering support for Hg)
16:54:16 [ArtB]
MB: prefer Mercurial but can live with CVS
16:54:29 [timeless_mbp]
technically Hg can help if you have someone (like me) making random minor cleanup bits
16:54:36 [ArtB]
... lots more flexible for Mercurial
16:54:52 [ArtB]
DS: let me dig into this a bit
16:55:10 [timeless_mbp]
shepazu: what OS are you on?
16:55:44 [ArtB]
AB: there could be less work with Mercurial because CVS requires public keys
16:55:52 [timeless_mbp]
seriously?
16:56:06 [timeless_mbp]
shepazu: http://jasonfharris.com/machg/
16:56:48 [ArtB]
AB: ok, tentatively we have a meeting on January 18; will be canceled if Doug does not get a spec out before then
16:56:50 [mbrubeck]
(some of my first programming experience was on BeOS)
16:56:58 [ArtB]
AB: meeting adjourned
16:57:00 [Zakim]
-Shepazu
16:57:04 [Zakim]
-timeless_mbp
16:57:06 [Zakim]
-Sangwhan_Moon
16:57:07 [Zakim]
-Art_Barstow
16:57:10 [Zakim]
-Mark_Brubeck
16:57:11 [Zakim]
-Anders
16:57:13 [Zakim]
RWC_(Web Events WG)11:00AM has ended
16:57:15 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.781.993.aaaa, Art_Barstow, +46.3.13.48.aabb, Anders, Shepazu, Sangwhan_Moon, +1.206.697.aacc, +1.850.486.aadd, timeless_mbp, Mark_Brubeck
16:57:15 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:57:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/11-webevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:58:08 [Sangwhan_Moon]
shepazu: https://github.com/mxcl/homebrew , http://mercurial.selenic.com/downloads/ , http://hginit.com/
16:58:38 [ahckerst]
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16:59:24 [Sangwhan_Moon]
Sangwhan_Moon has left #webevents
17:12:03 [cathy]
cathy has left #webevents
17:51:03 [smaug_]
argh, I missed the call
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