13:59:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #poiwg
13:59:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/01/05-poiwg-irc
13:59:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:59:43 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #poiwg
13:59:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be UW_POI
13:59:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see UW_POI(POIWG)9:00AM already started
13:59:46 <trackbot> Meeting: Points of Interest Working Group Teleconference
13:59:46 <trackbot> Date: 05 January 2011
13:59:49 <Ronald> Ronald has joined #poiwg
14:00:03 <matt> zakim, dial matt-voip
14:00:03 <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
14:00:04 <Zakim> +Matt
14:00:06 <Zakim> -Matt
14:00:47 <Andy> Let's get started 
14:00:50 <matt> zakim, dial matt-voip
14:00:50 <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
14:00:52 <Zakim> +Matt
14:00:53 <Zakim> -Matt
14:01:21 <Zakim> +??P4
14:01:25 <matt> Chair: Andy
14:01:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.919.439.aaaa, +1.312.894.aabb, ??P4
14:01:34 <matt> zakim, dial matt-voip
14:01:34 <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
14:01:35 <Zakim> +Matt
14:02:10 <Andy> Lots of people on IRC not a lot on the call
14:02:26 <matt> zakim, code?
14:02:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 76494 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), matt
14:02:31 <matt> zakim, mute me
14:02:31 <Zakim> Matt should now be muted
14:03:01 <Zakim> + +1.617.764.aacc
14:03:10 <matt> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:03:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.919.439.aaaa, +1.312.894.aabb, Matt (muted), ??P4, +1.617.764.aacc
14:03:55 <matt> zakim, aacc is Raj?
14:03:55 <Zakim> +Raj?; got it
14:04:11 <matt> zakim, aaaa is Andy
14:04:11 <Zakim> +Andy; got it
14:04:12 <Zakim> +??P14
14:04:19 <Ronald> zakim, P14 is me
14:04:19 <Zakim> sorry, Ronald, I do not recognize a party named 'P14'
14:04:25 <matt> zakim, ??p4 is jfdsmit 
14:04:25 <Zakim> +jfdsmit; got it
14:04:27 <Ronald> zakim, ??P14 is me
14:04:27 <Zakim> +Ronald; got it
14:04:54 <matt> Scribe: Alex
14:04:55 <alex_> alex is scribing
14:05:14 <Zakim> + +31.30.230.aadd
14:05:23 <matt> Topic: F2F Review: Core POI
14:05:28 <jfdsmit> zakim, aadd is me
14:05:28 <Zakim> +jfdsmit; got it
14:05:34 <Andy> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core_Principles
14:05:45 <matt> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:05:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Andy, +1.312.894.aabb, Matt (muted), jfdsmit, Raj?, Ronald, jfdsmit.a
14:05:53 <matt> zakim, jfdsmit is ???
14:05:53 <Zakim> +???; got it
14:05:59 <matt> zakim, jfdsmit.a is jfdsmit
14:05:59 <Zakim> +jfdsmit; got it
14:06:42 <alex_> Andy: let's start by going over the Face to Face results
14:06:59 <matt> zakim, aabb is Gary
14:06:59 <Zakim> +Gary; got it
14:07:03 <matt> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:07:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see Andy, Gary, Matt (muted), ???, Raj?, Ronald, jfdsmit
14:07:23 <kseiler> ??? = Karl S
14:07:30 <matt> zakim, ??? is Karl
14:07:30 <Zakim> +Karl; got it
14:08:16 <rsingh2> rsingh2 has joined #poiwg
14:08:38 <cperey> cperey has joined #poiwg
14:09:13 <Zakim> +cperey
14:09:49 <jfdsmit> +q
14:09:51 <matt> zakim, who is making noise?
14:10:01 <Zakim> matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Andy (5%), Gary (10%), cperey (35%)
14:10:14 <cperey> just muted myself
14:10:26 <matt> ack next
14:10:46 <matt> zakim, umute me
14:10:46 <Zakim> I don't understand 'umute me', matt
14:10:48 <cperey> could someone please paste in a URL?
14:10:56 <matt> zakim, unmute me
14:10:56 <Zakim> Matt should no longer be muted
14:10:59 <alex_> Andy: referring to Core_Principles link, a POI must have a location primitive, name primitive, id primitive, a time primitive and must be extensible, etc.
14:11:00 <matt> q+
14:11:01 <Andy> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core_Principles
14:11:09 <cperey> thank you
14:11:31 <alex_> Karl: if anyone wasn't at the meeting, do you have questions?
14:12:05 <alex_> Jens: looking at the list I'm not sure I unserstand why so many elements are a "must have"
14:12:58 <matt> ack me
14:13:00 <alex_> Andy: the "musts" doesn't necessarily mean each POI has to have one
14:13:00 <matt> zakim, mute me
14:13:00 <Zakim> Matt should now be muted
14:13:05 <Andy> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft
14:13:20 <alex_> Sorry, Matt, the "musts" doesn't necessarily mean each POI has to have one
14:13:36 <matt> s/Andy, /Matt, /
14:13:43 <matt> s/Matt, /Matt: /
14:13:52 <matt> s/Sorry,/Andy: Sorry,/
14:14:01 <alex_> Karl: we decided to make these a must to provoke more discussion later
14:14:13 <cperey> +1 that it is a must
14:14:14 <Andy> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft#time_primitive
14:14:50 <matt> Perhaps it's required with a default span of now
14:15:02 <cperey> could the default be when the POI was created?
14:15:03 <Andy> +q
14:15:34 <alex_> Karl: as for time, we thought that it would be a significant part of the spec in the future, so we made it a must
14:17:05 <alex_> Jens/Karl: agreed that the default time would be now
14:17:30 <alex_> Jens: can the default of categorization be none?
14:18:21 <alex_> Karl: we are doing a lot of LIDAR and we only know there is a business, so we are inclined to have an initial category for more things
14:18:35 <alex_> Jens: are we going to have multiple categories?
14:19:30 <alex_> Karl: we do need multiples, but for computer-to-computer, we will have to be crafty about how be encode things
14:20:16 <alex_> Andy: there was a lot of agreement about not trying to recreate categorization schemes?
14:21:03 <alex_> Raj: the location primitive seems wishy-washy - for machine-to-machine it seems abmiguous
14:22:03 <alex_> Andy: the main point of unknown was for POI's that we don't currently have the location of
14:22:49 <alex_> Andy: and "relative" was for "the blue house 100m down the street" example
14:24:15 <alex_> Karl: the thought was to have something we can hand around when we haven't resolved the location down to cartesian coordinates
14:24:47 <jfdsmit> +q
14:24:59 <cperey> who is speaking now?
14:25:18 <Andy> yes
14:25:20 <Andy> Karl
14:25:25 <alex_> Raj: the relative and other non-cartesian locations don't seem to help mach-2-mach interoperability
14:25:44 <cperey> yes, please
14:26:10 <cperey> just say your name!
14:26:18 <kseiler> will do
14:26:28 <alex_> Karl: we pass around addresses all the time at Navteq - for instance what Google resolves to Cartesian is not as accurate as we do
14:26:30 <cperey> there are people in the q?
14:26:39 <Andy> -q
14:27:23 <alex_> Karl: the 3D model seem controversial
14:27:38 <Andy> +q
14:28:11 <alex_> Raj: we have some interest from real estate persons wanting a wireframe of buildings or individual units inside one
14:29:17 <alex_> Karl: when the topography changes then binding or model anchor is likely to be shifting - we need some way to resolve this
14:30:07 <alex_> Jens: seems that we could do late binding on things like anchor
14:31:54 <cperey> agree with Alex on his point about the world getting more and more "complex" and high resolution
14:32:04 <cperey> thinking ahead +1
14:32:04 <alex_> Andy: some of the 3D aspects were movitated by AR, right Alex?
14:32:08 <Ronald> +1
14:32:09 <alex_> Alex:
14:32:22 <matt> q?
14:32:33 <matt> ack jfdsmit, Andy 
14:32:42 <matt> q?
14:32:43 <Andy> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Core/Draft
14:32:44 <matt> ack next
14:32:45 <matt> ack next
14:32:50 <alex_> Alex: yes there were motivated by AR for things like picking buildings, placing POI's relative to building structures (i.e. on that window, etc.)
14:33:02 <cperey> Karl?
14:33:44 <alex_> Alex: but, we should also include them because simple 3D points and minimum bounding rectangle is probably not going to cut it in a future where there is singingicantly more fidelity in GIS modeling
14:33:46 <cperey> not prescribing a format at this point sounds like a good idea
14:33:52 <matt> zakim, unmute me
14:33:52 <Zakim> Matt should no longer be muted
14:34:37 <alex_> Andy: we decided not to nail things down to XML or JSON at this point to make sure we keep the important points in mind
14:35:03 <alex_> Andy: but we will have to bind this at some point to specific example or it will be considered too theoretical
14:35:08 <Ronald> I agree
14:35:11 <alex_> Jens: I can only agree
14:35:11 <jfdsmit> +1
14:35:19 <matt> zakim, mute me
14:35:19 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mute me', matt
14:35:27 <matt> zakim, mute me
14:35:27 <Zakim> Matt should now be muted
14:35:46 <matt> s/Andy: we/Matt: We/
14:35:48 <Zakim> -cperey
14:35:54 <matt> s/Andy: but/Matt: But/
14:36:08 <Zakim> +cperey
14:36:13 <Andy> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/charter/#milestones
14:36:23 <matt> Topic: F2F Review: AR Landscape
14:36:18 <alex_> Andy: that wraps up the POI format discussion - I don't see Jonathon here but he put some effort into an AR landscape document that he presented
14:36:21 <cperey> yes, that was me
14:36:51 <alex_> Andy: I believe Alex and Ronald had offered/voluntered to help move this forward
14:37:09 <kseiler> andy you are breaking up on the line
14:37:31 <cperey> a draft out this month would be beneficial for discussion at the International AR Standards meeting Feb 17-19
14:37:38 <rsingh2> breaking up for me too
14:37:51 <cperey> the community would comment at the Feb meeting
14:37:57 <alex_> Andy: the plan has been for a first draft in April, but there was some discussion about accelerating this timetable to get more public comment/iterative model
14:38:00 <cperey> the position papers deadline is Jan 17
14:38:59 <Zakim> -Matt
14:39:04 <cperey> q
14:39:17 <matt> zakim, dial matt-voip
14:39:17 <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
14:39:19 <Zakim> +Matt
14:39:23 <cperey> I would like to have the floor?!
14:39:30 <matt> zakim, mute me
14:39:30 <Zakim> Matt should now be muted
14:39:32 <alex_> Andy: we also have the AR note and need someone to volunteer to help with that
14:39:37 <cperey> when ready
14:39:54 <Zakim> -Matt
14:39:55 <Andy> christine?
14:39:58 <alex_> I haven't heard Christine
14:40:10 <matt> zakim, dial matt-voip
14:40:10 <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
14:40:11 <Zakim> +Matt
14:40:17 <matt> zakim, mute me
14:40:17 <Zakim> Matt was already muted, matt
14:40:36 <Zakim> -Matt
14:40:39 <matt> zakim, dial matt-voip
14:40:39 <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
14:40:41 <Zakim> +Matt
14:40:46 <matt> zakim, dial matt-voip
14:40:46 <Zakim> I am sorry, matt; I do not know a number for matt-voip
14:40:48 <matt> Topic: AR Standards Workshop
14:40:48 <alex_> Christine: would be nice to have these notes as a position paper for the International AR standards workshop
14:40:49 <matt> zakim, mute me
14:40:49 <Zakim> Matt should now be muted
14:41:38 <kseiler> +q
14:41:41 <alex_> Christine: I would encourage this accelerated timetable because this draft would provoke a lot of disscusion at the Ar standards workshop
14:41:43 <matt> q?
14:41:45 <cperey> deep sigh
14:42:41 <jfdsmit> what needs to be done on the AR note? do we have a skeleton or abstract?
14:42:53 <alex_> Karl: I would prefer a smaller more iterative process versus making a larger commitment because I don't want to disappoint the group by overcomitting
14:43:04 <cperey> http://www.perey.com/ARStandardsPositionPapers.html
14:44:04 <cperey> http://www.perey.com/MobileARSummit/Position_Papers.html
14:44:15 <alex_> Christine: There weren't a lot of position paper for the last meeting in October, but when combined with other discussion, these papers really helped motivate the discussion
14:44:36 <cperey> http://www.perey.com/Mobile_Augmented_Reality_Summit_Position_Papers.html
14:44:53 <alex_> Christine: these position papers don't have to be of exceptionally high quality (i.e. for peer review)
14:45:05 <cperey> http://www.perey.com/ARStandardsPaperInstructions.html
14:45:29 <alex_> Christine: the purpose of the steering committee is not to cut out people but just ot make sure that those included are relevant
14:46:43 <cperey> Please make sure to include this "home page" in your minutes http://www.perey.com/ARStandardsMeetingFeb2011.html
14:46:45 <alex_> Andy: If I can be there on the second day in Barcelona, I would be happy to present a paper on our POI progress
14:48:03 <alex_> Andy: Moving on to the announcements part of the agenda
14:48:14 <kseiler> q
14:48:17 <cperey> are there thoughts about having the April F2F in Europe?
14:48:39 <jfdsmit> christine: karl suggested berlin in atlanta
14:48:40 <matt> Topic: Call for Volunteers
14:48:42 <alex_> Andy: those of you who want to help edit the working draft can contact me offline
14:49:09 <alex_> Karl: can we get people to volunteer to flesh out an individual primitive?
14:49:23 <alex_> Karl: For instance I would volunteer to take a stab at location
14:50:12 <matt> +1 to no wiki edit wars!
14:50:17 <alex_> Andy: perhaps we can do the "churning" or "thrashing" in the e-mail list instead of in the wiki?
14:50:25 <jfdsmit> +1
14:50:29 <Ronald> +1
14:50:47 <kseiler> sounds good to me - I'll take a stab at the "location" primative
14:51:00 <alex_> Andy: any other announcements?
14:51:37 <alex_> Raj: can we make these pages such as core principles more visible?
14:51:53 <alex_> Andy: Matt is working on that now
14:52:14 <cperey> Amsterdam
14:52:25 <matt> Topic: Next Face to Face
14:52:29 <alex_> Andy: there was talk about Amsterdam or Berlin as a location for the next F2F location
14:52:40 <cperey> Amsterdam in spring!
14:52:52 <kseiler> amsterdam works
14:52:55 <jfdsmit> just as rainy as Berlin...
14:53:10 <cperey> April 12-16 American what?
14:53:21 <rsingh2> http://www.aag.org/cs/annualmeeting
14:53:21 <alex_> Raj: April 11-16th American Association of Geographers
14:53:23 <cperey> AMerican Association of Geographers
14:53:23 <kseiler> where is where 2.0?
14:53:25 <cperey> :-)
14:53:30 <cperey> San Francisco
14:53:35 <rsingh2> http://where2conf.com/where2011
14:54:26 <alex_> Raj: and, Where 2.0 is in Sant Clara April 19-21
14:55:05 <cperey> yes...we need to get down to some dates
14:55:18 <alex_> Andy: if your mention was to suggest a co-location, I think we really need to hit Europe
14:55:22 <cperey> I would say immediately following Where 2.0
14:55:49 <jfdsmit> +1 for a poll, IF everybody answers fast
14:55:52 <cperey> need to check when Easter
14:56:01 <Ronald> poll sounds good
14:56:04 <alex_> Andy: Perhaps I will send out a poll to the mailing list to gather ideas about a F2F meeting?
14:56:08 <cperey> +1 poll
14:56:38 <alex_> Andy: OK, I'll do that ASAP
14:56:39 <cperey> bye bye!
14:56:42 <matt> zakim, who is here
14:56:42 <Zakim> matt, you need to end that query with '?'
14:56:45 <kseiler> ok adios
14:56:46 <matt> zakim, unmute me
14:56:46 <Zakim> Matt should no longer be muted
14:56:47 <alex_> :)
14:56:48 <Ronald> thanks all, bye
14:56:51 <alex_> bye
14:57:01 <Zakim> -cperey
14:57:42 <alex_> bye
14:57:44 <Zakim> -Gary
14:57:46 <Zakim> -Matt
14:57:48 <Zakim> -jfdsmit
14:57:50 <Zakim> -Ronald
14:57:51 <Zakim> -Raj?
14:57:57 <matt> Present: Andy, Jens, Karl, Christine, Ronald, Raj, Matt, Alex
14:58:05 <matt> Regrets: Jonathan, Gary, Luca
14:58:36 <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:58:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/01/05-poiwg-minutes.html matt