14:57:56 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #i18n
14:57:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/22-i18n-irc
14:58:06 <aphillip> RRSAgent, set logs world-visible
14:58:19 <aphillip> Meeting: Internationalization Core Teleconference
14:58:23 <aphillip> Chair: Addison Phillips
14:58:29 <aphillip> Scribe: Addison Phillips
14:58:33 <aphillip> ScribeNick: aphillip
14:58:59 <aphillip> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Dec/0019.html
14:59:06 <aphillip> zakim, this will be I18N
14:59:06 <Zakim> ok, aphillip, I see I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM already started
14:59:13 <kennyluck> Zakim, code?
14:59:13 <Zakim> the conference code is 4186 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), kennyluck
14:59:15 <aphillip> zakim, who is here?
14:59:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see matial
14:59:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, aphillip, kennyluck, trackbot, fantasai
14:59:23 <Gwyneth> Gwyneth has joined #i18n
14:59:25 <aphillip> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:59:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/22-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
14:59:43 <Zakim> +aphillip
14:59:52 <Zakim> +??P2
15:00:04 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:00:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/22-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:02:21 <aharon> aharon has joined #i18n
15:03:25 <Zakim> +aharon
15:04:15 <Zakim> -aharon
15:05:27 <aphillip> Topic: Agenda
15:06:04 <Zakim> +aharon
15:06:05 <aphillip> Topic: Action Items
15:06:11 <aharon> zakim, mute me
15:06:11 <Zakim> aharon should now be muted
15:06:41 <aphillip> 	Ask the Korean HTML5 Interest Group what should happen if "word-break: keep-all" is used with "word-wrap: break-all"
15:06:46 <aphillip> kenny: more time needed
15:07:47 <aphillip> trackbot, close ACTION-9
15:07:47 <trackbot> ACTION-9 Publish list of bugs with status closed and then a separate list with bugs that there is potential working group objection for review at next meeting closed
15:07:59 <aphillip> Topic: Info Share
15:08:31 <aphillip> Topic: Bidi status
15:08:38 <aharon> zakim, unmute me
15:08:38 <Zakim> aharon should no longer be muted
15:09:19 <aphillip> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Dec/0017.html
15:09:26 <aphillip> (burning issue on <br>)
15:09:54 <aharon> zakim, mute me
15:09:54 <Zakim> aharon should now be muted
15:10:32 <aphillip> ACTION: all: review closed HTML bugs and send any objections to the list by end of year (see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Dec/0013.html)
15:10:32 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - all
15:10:50 <aharon> zakimj, unmute me
15:10:56 <aphillip> zakim, unmute aharon
15:10:56 <Zakim> aharon should no longer be muted
15:11:16 <aphillip> aharon: one item I proposed was to deal with <br> element
15:11:24 <aphillip> ... html4 defined <br> as bidi whitespace
15:11:34 <aphillip> ... not supposed to be used as paragraph separator
15:12:42 <aphillip> aharon: people are not using <br> as defined in spec
15:12:54 <aphillip> .... but as newline (i.e. a paragraph break)
15:13:07 <aphillip> ... if used that way, then should not be bidi whitespace
15:13:16 <aphillip> ... so many cases of obviously wrong ordering
15:13:26 <aphillip> ... so proposed to fix as para separator
15:13:35 <aphillip> aharon: two part proposal
15:13:49 <aphillip> ... 1) make as default a bidi para sep
15:14:16 <aphillip> ... 2) allow control over behavior of <br> using a bidi break attribute
15:14:38 <aphillip> aharon: new attribute rejected; didn't want to add
15:15:13 <aphillip> ... originally not happy about changing because doesn't make sense when used as it is "supposed" to be used
15:15:26 <aphillip> ... eventually convinced HTML that there was a lack of interop
15:15:35 <aphillip> ... and it won't go away and so accepted
15:15:43 <aphillip> ... so <br> now stands as para sep
15:16:08 <aphillip> aharon: 1 week ago, someone noticed that IE7 and earlier treated as para sep
15:16:17 <kennyluck> [That person is Simon Mantagu]
15:16:21 <aphillip> ... but IE8 and later treat as whitespace in 'standards' mode
15:16:31 <aphillip> s/Mantagu/Montagu/
15:18:00 <aphillip> addison: change in IE not a reason to change spec?
15:18:20 <aphillip> aharon: if IE comes into consistent performance with Mozilla, maybe they would remove
15:19:55 <kennyluck> +1 to reopen the bug. They changed the spec by the reasoning that the spec should be aligned with IE, but this is not true.
15:20:52 <kennyluck> q+
15:21:02 <aphillip> ack kennyluck
15:21:35 <aphillip> addison: IE doing it or not is not the important issue
15:21:53 <aphillip> kennyluck: we are not giving them the right information about IE, so need to report correctly
15:22:04 <aphillip> aharon: so what do we want to recommend as a WG?
15:23:23 <aphillip> addison: what's the best thing to do for bidi support?
15:23:40 <aphillip> aharon: two reasons; one bidi and one interop
15:25:28 <aphillip> addison: compatibility is helpful in making our argument, but it isn't the same thing as being our argument
15:25:59 <aphillip> aharon: so you're saying: reopen. there is more interop, but still same case for bidi
15:26:06 <aphillip> addison: yes
15:26:14 <kennyluck> q+
15:26:19 <aphillip> ack kennyluck
15:26:48 <aphillip> kennyluck: open a new bug with new use case
15:27:25 <najib-ma> najib-ma has joined #i18n
15:28:09 <aphillip> aharon: there were two bugs, one asked for bidi break attribute
15:28:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/22-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:28:40 <aphillip> ... and there was reaction that there was no way that they'd do a new attribute
15:29:20 <kennyluck> s/new use case/focus on use case instead of solution basically a refined version of our issue2/
15:30:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/22-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:30:17 <kennyluck> aharon: The good news is that paragraph separator and line seaprators start to get supported.
15:30:18 <kennyluck> q+
15:30:49 <aphillip> ack kennyluck
15:31:16 <kennyluck> br { content: PARAGRAPH SEPARATOR }
15:31:22 <aphillip> kennyluck: would this use case solve your issues
15:31:51 <kennyluck> (the current default is br { content: \A } )
15:32:42 <kennyluck> (\A is bidi white space)
15:34:50 <aphillip> addison: so question before WG is: should <br> be whitespace or paragraph separator
15:35:19 <aphillip> kenny: no opinion
15:35:25 <aphillip> addison: think we should stick with paragraph sep
15:35:34 <aphillip> aharon: should remain paragraph separator
15:35:51 <aphillip> ... however we'd be in the minority on public-i18n-bidi
15:37:10 <aphillip> ACTION: aharon: write to i18n public groups and ask for opinion on whether <br> should be a paragraph separator or whitespace to be used to determin consensus
15:37:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Write to i18n public groups and ask for opinion on whether <br> should be a paragraph separator or whitespace to be used to determin consensus [on Aharon Lanin - due 2010-12-29].
15:38:17 <aphillip> addison: do we want to cover any of the potential reopens today?
15:38:23 <aphillip> aharon: save for next time
15:38:30 <kennyluck> s/your issues/your use cases/
15:38:46 <aphillip> Topic: AOB?
15:39:22 <aphillip> next meeting: skip a week?
15:39:43 <aphillip> Next meeting 5 January 2011
15:40:17 <Zakim> -Gwyneth
15:40:18 <Zakim> -aharon
15:40:20 <Zakim> -aphillip
15:40:21 <Zakim> -kennyluck
15:40:23 <aphillip> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:40:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/22-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:40:28 <Zakim> -matial
15:40:29 <Zakim> I18N_CoreWG()10:00AM has ended
15:40:31 <Zakim> Attendees were matial, aphillip, kennyluck, [Microsoft], Gwyneth, aharon
15:40:33 <aphillip> Regrets: Felix, Norbert, Richard
15:40:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/22-i18n-minutes.html aphillip
15:40:51 <aphillip> zakim, bye
15:40:51 <Zakim> Zakim has left #i18n
15:40:56 <aphillip> RRSAgent, bye
15:40:56 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/22-i18n-actions.rdf :
15:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: all: review closed HTML bugs and send any objections to the list by end of year (see: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2010Dec/0013.html) [1]
15:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/22-i18n-irc#T15-10-32
15:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: aharon: write to i18n public groups and ask for opinion on whether <br> should be a paragraph separator or whitespace to be used to determin consensus [2]
15:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/22-i18n-irc#T15-37-10