IRC log of ua on 2010-12-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:43:24 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
17:43:24 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-ua-irc
17:43:26 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
17:43:26 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #ua
17:43:28 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
17:43:28 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
17:43:29 [trackbot]
Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
17:43:29 [trackbot]
Date: 16 December 2010
17:56:06 [JAllan]
Chair: JimAllan, KellyFord
17:56:25 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Dec 23 and 30 meetings
17:56:32 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Review proposals sent to list
17:56:51 [JAllan]
Agenda+ Testing UAAG and requirements from a test environment
17:59:21 [JAllan]
agenda + indicating a context menu http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Dec/0008.html (beginning of thread)
17:59:38 [jeanne-bbiab]
jeanne-bbiab has joined #ua
18:00:19 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
18:00:26 [Zakim]
+Jim_Allan
18:01:52 [kford]
kford has joined #ua
18:02:18 [Zakim]
+[Microsoft]
18:02:30 [kford]
zakim, microsoft is kford
18:02:30 [Zakim]
+kford; got it
18:02:47 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:02:47 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:02:49 [Zakim]
1. Dec 23 and 30 meetings [from JAllan]
18:02:50 [Zakim]
2. Review proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:02:52 [Zakim]
3. Testing UAAG and requirements from a test environment [from JAllan]
18:02:53 [Zakim]
4. indicating a context menu http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Dec/0008.html (beginning of thread) [from JAllan]
18:02:59 [Zakim]
+Jeanne
18:03:29 [Jan]
Jan has joined #ua
18:03:52 [Jan]
zakim, code?
18:03:52 [Zakim]
the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Jan
18:04:19 [Zakim]
+??P19
18:04:28 [Jan]
zakim, ??P19 is really Jan
18:04:28 [Zakim]
+Jan; got it
18:04:41 [JAllan]
regrets: GregL
18:04:53 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:04:53 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:04:54 [Zakim]
1. Dec 23 and 30 meetings [from JAllan]
18:04:55 [Zakim]
2. Review proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:04:56 [Zakim]
3. Testing UAAG and requirements from a test environment [from JAllan]
18:04:58 [Zakim]
4. indicating a context menu http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Dec/0008.html (beginning of thread) [from JAllan]
18:05:02 [kford]
Chair: Jim_Allan
18:05:12 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
18:05:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-ua-minutes.html kford
18:06:46 [Zakim]
+ +1.617.325.aaaa
18:07:09 [kford]
Scribe: kford
18:09:00 [KimPatch]
KimPatch has joined #ua
18:09:00 [kford]
zakim, agenda?
18:09:00 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
18:09:02 [Zakim]
1. Dec 23 and 30 meetings [from JAllan]
18:09:03 [Zakim]
2. Review proposals sent to list [from JAllan]
18:09:05 [Zakim]
3. Testing UAAG and requirements from a test environment [from JAllan]
18:09:06 [JAllan]
zakim, aaaa is really KimPatch
18:09:07 [Zakim]
4. indicating a context menu http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Dec/0008.html (beginning of thread) [from JAllan]
18:09:10 [Zakim]
+KimPatch; got it
18:10:55 [JAllan]
topic: Testing requirements and Suites
18:11:31 [JAllan]
WAI has resource to work on testing
18:11:55 [JAllan]
...what are the commonalities of requirements across WG
18:12:08 [JAllan]
...possible library of test items
18:12:21 [JAllan]
...UAAG may need more human testing
18:12:42 [JAllan]
...need common reporting structure
18:13:26 [JAllan]
...UAAG needs to develop requirements for validating guidelines
18:14:14 [JAllan]
KF: push to test WAI-ARIA, can any of their test cases be used in other WG
18:15:15 [JAllan]
...User interaction part is hard to automate for UAAG testing
18:15:53 [JAllan]
js: for UAAG to be finalized, we have to test that 2 browsers meet every requirement
18:16:08 [JAllan]
... needs to be open
18:17:44 [JAllan]
...anything developed should be sharable
18:18:37 [JAllan]
KP: how to test with extensions
18:19:34 [JAllan]
kf: list success criteria, and how browser x plus what extension meet the criteria
18:19:40 [Jan]
q+
18:20:18 [JAllan]
kp: should provide the link to the extension download
18:21:21 [JAllan]
jr: are there candidate systems that do testing, that we can write a harness around
18:25:57 [JAllan]
ja: talked about STEP from US Gov and WGBH, Usablenet Lift machine, powershots.org, powermapper.com cross browser testing
18:26:15 [JAllan]
kf: tough part is the user interaction part
18:26:58 [JAllan]
... test all settings, and cascade of alternative content, etc.
18:27:11 [JAllan]
...standard test items would help
18:27:47 [JAllan]
js: how practically are we going to manage to test all major browsers to find 2 that meet our guidelines
18:28:02 [JAllan]
...and track all of this
18:28:22 [JAllan]
...This is what the W3 will build, the tracking tool
18:28:53 [JAllan]
kp: need to be able to share settings. would be neat if it were a browser extension
18:31:07 [JAllan]
js: need to manage what the tests are, who passed, and why
18:34:59 [JAllan]
kp: how would the testing work
18:35:17 [JAllan]
js: WCAG testing keyboard accessible
18:36:21 [JAllan]
...pull up test case, it says purpose of test, file to use, function that user must do, criteria for passing, then add results to reporting tool
18:37:36 [JAllan]
UAAG 1.0 test suite http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/TS/html401/
18:39:42 [JAllan]
kf: open source testing tracking system?
18:40:26 [JAllan]
jr: yes, they exist. but don't meet our needs
18:40:50 [JAllan]
scribe: jallan
18:44:57 [JAllan]
regrets + simon, mark
18:46:17 [JAllan]
zakim, take up agenda item 4
18:46:17 [Zakim]
'item\ 4' does not match any agenda item, JAllan
18:46:28 [JAllan]
zakim, open item 4
18:46:28 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "indicating a context menu http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2010Dec/0008.html (beginning of thread)" taken up [from JAllan]
18:49:07 [JAllan]
kf: custom context menus are authoring issue.
18:50:23 [JAllan]
ja: how is existence of the custom menu presented to the user.
18:50:31 [JAllan]
kf: this is an issue.
18:51:40 [JAllan]
jr: general issue. elements have special function, how is user supposed to know about invisible behaviors.
18:52:35 [JAllan]
... anytime content is implemented in a way that semantics are available to the browser or a11y api, then all bets are off
18:53:40 [JAllan]
ja: does this fall under the WCAG catch all - no mater what it has to work
18:55:26 [kford]
JR: Used example of text alternative that is explained in following paragraph as that passes wcag.
18:55:34 [JAllan]
jr: WCAG 1.1.1 all non-text content. image with caption after it, is OK. no requirement for programmatically determinable
18:56:55 [JAllan]
kf: what does this do to our cascade of alternatives.
18:57:56 [JAllan]
jr: that is why we couch our guidelines in 'if no semantics are available, then we can't do anything with it'
18:58:04 [Jan]
text alternative
18:58:06 [Jan]
Text that is programmatically associated with non-text content or referred to from text that is programmatically associated with non-text content. Programmatically associated text is text whose location can be programmatically determined from the non-text content.
18:58:07 [Jan]
Example: An image of a chart is described in text in the paragraph after the chart. The short text alternative for the chart indicates that a description follows.
19:00:18 [JAllan]
kf: example, link with text and image (no alt in image)
19:00:54 [JAllan]
...the relationship is progammatically determinable because they are in the same anchor
19:01:40 [JAllan]
ja: javascript blackhole should be brought up to CG
19:03:33 [JAllan]
all: discussion of alt, WCAG 1.1.1, etc.
19:05:30 [JAllan]
ja: where does lack of semantics go?
19:05:53 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes:
19:05:53 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes:', kford. Try /msg RRSAgent help
19:06:05 [kford]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:06:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-ua-minutes.html kford
19:06:17 [JAllan]
jr: WCAG has conditions of conformance, ATAG has 'applicability notes' in the body of the document, they are normative
19:07:15 [JAllan]
... applicability note are listed at the top
19:09:07 [JAllan]
jr: recommends UAWG read ATAG for applicability notes
19:09:23 [JAllan]
kf: +1
19:10:15 [JAllan]
js: use sparingly, easy for them to be separated from the other content, or other folks reuse the material
19:10:45 [Zakim]
-kford
19:10:47 [Zakim]
-KimPatch
19:12:27 [Zakim]
-Jan
19:13:27 [JAllan]
rrsagent, make minutes
19:13:27 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/16-ua-minutes.html JAllan
19:13:56 [JAllan]
rrsagent, please part
19:13:56 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items