IRC log of poiwg on 2010-12-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:59:49 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #poiwg
13:59:49 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-poiwg-irc
13:59:51 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
13:59:51 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #poiwg
13:59:53 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be UW_POI
13:59:53 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot, I see UW_POI(POIWG)9:00AM already started
13:59:54 [trackbot]
Meeting: Points of Interest Working Group Teleconference
13:59:54 [trackbot]
Date: 08 December 2010
14:00:23 [matt]
zakim, dial matt-voip
14:00:23 [Zakim]
ok, matt; the call is being made
14:00:24 [Zakim]
+Matt
14:00:39 [matt]
zakim, drop matt
14:00:39 [Zakim]
Matt is being disconnected
14:00:40 [Zakim]
-Matt
14:00:41 [vinod]
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14:01:01 [matt]
zakim, code?
14:01:01 [Zakim]
the conference code is 76494 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), matt
14:01:17 [Zakim]
+Matt
14:01:37 [Ronald]
Ronald has joined #poiwg
14:02:10 [Ronald]
Hi guys, sorry I can't be in the call due to another meeting. Will try to keep an eye on the IRC channel though.
14:02:28 [matt]
zakim, who is here?
14:02:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see hta, Andy, Gary, Matt
14:02:29 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Ronald, vinod, Zakim, RRSAgent, gary, Luca, danbri, Andy, matt, trackbot
14:02:44 [alex_]
alex_ has joined #poiwg
14:02:55 [matt]
zakim, hta is Luca
14:02:55 [Zakim]
+Luca; got it
14:03:25 [gary]
Sitting on mute so you don't hear me coughing and spluttering
14:04:21 [Zakim]
+??P14
14:04:24 [matt]
zakim, who is noisy?
14:04:34 [jacques]
jacques has joined #poiwg
14:04:34 [Zakim]
matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Luca (20%), Andy (48%), ??P14 (9%)
14:04:48 [matt]
zakim, ??p14 is Alex
14:04:48 [Zakim]
+Alex; got it
14:05:14 [matt]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-poiwg/2010Dec/0001
14:05:21 [matt]
scribe: Matt
14:05:24 [matt]
Chair: Andy
14:05:41 [matt]
Regrets: Karl, Ronald, Jens, Carl, Christine
14:05:44 [matt]
Topic: Action Review
14:05:45 [matt]
ACTION-15?
14:05:45 [trackbot]
ACTION-15 -- Andrew Braun to review use cases based on today's discussion -- due 2010-12-08 -- OPEN
14:05:45 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/actions/15
14:06:47 [matt]
Andy: Reviewing the use cases: we had a meeting on 11/17 that surrounded the use cases. We agreed they were to be for testing the data format. Reviewing the minutes, numerous people stepped forward to review them. I looked at them, and it seems we have a good set of use cases from my perspective.
14:06:54 [Zakim]
+ +33.4.76.61.aaaa
14:07:12 [jacques]
+jacques
14:07:31 [matt]
Andy: The one thing that's missing I think is real-time use cases. By that I mean things like Foursquare or Gowalla where there are things happening at places right now.
14:07:53 [matt]
I'm not sure if it's an extension or a core thing. But the data format needs to support something real-time.
14:07:55 [matt]
zakim, aaaa is jacques
14:07:55 [Zakim]
+jacques; got it
14:08:16 [matt]
Andy: That's the use case I saw missing. I'll write it up in a generic way and send it to the list. I thought we could take a few minutes to discuss it here.
14:08:33 [matt]
Luca: Don't you think AR is kind of a real-time use case?
14:08:56 [matt]
-> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Use_Cases Use Case
14:09:11 [alex_]
+alex
14:09:12 [matt]
Andy: Looking at our use cases I didn't see the real-time nature of it being captured.
14:09:19 [matt]
Regrets+ danbri
14:09:37 [alex_]
thanks, matt
14:09:41 [alex_]
q+
14:10:01 [matt]
Andy: I'm wondering how we make use of the real-time Web, with constantly changing data. Maybe location base advertising is real-time, but it seems more fixed case.
14:10:08 [matt]
s/fixed case/fixed data/
14:10:17 [gary]
+q
14:10:18 [matt]
Luca: ?? communication, like my presence.
14:10:30 [matt]
ack next
14:11:16 [matt]
alex_: With respect to AR, where we have guide/create/play has a good breadth to it and is a good reflection of what we have above it, but most of it I think we see as queries. Informational... would fall into the first bullet point of AR Guide.
14:11:35 [matt]
alex_: What I don't see is the typical case where I want to create real-time data and leave it for someone.
14:11:54 [matt]
[[Great point on creation Alex! +1]]
14:12:16 [matt]
alex_: We don't seem to cover quick peer-to-peer data real-time data exchange between users.
14:12:24 [alex_]
-q
14:12:57 [matt]
q+ to ask where we think we'll use this data, backend? directly in the clients? transform from JSON in a Web page or is this sort of a storage format?
14:13:18 [matt]
gary: From a definition and processing point of view, there's no difference between static and real-time.
14:13:42 [matt]
gary: Yes, you are creating content and adding to the corpus, but I don't think that counts as real-time, it's just another content feed.
14:13:47 [alex_]
+1 use case doesn't necessarily inform the data model or underlying standard
14:13:49 [matt]
ack gary
14:14:25 [matt]
gary: The use cases are a good representation now for a first round. Let's not get hung up on these now.
14:14:28 [matt]
q?
14:14:32 [alex_]
+q
14:14:39 [matt]
ack next
14:14:42 [Zakim]
matt, you wanted to ask where we think we'll use this data, backend? directly in the clients? transform from JSON in a Web page or is this sort of a storage format?
14:15:26 [gary]
Matt - we can't hear you
14:15:33 [matt]
zakim, mute me
14:15:33 [Zakim]
Matt should now be muted
14:15:40 [matt]
ack matt
14:15:43 [matt]
zakim, mute me
14:15:43 [Zakim]
Matt should now be muted
14:15:46 [matt]
ack alex_
14:15:55 [Andy]
+1 on alex
14:15:58 [alex_]
-q
14:16:08 [matt]
alex: I agree that more use cases won't necessarily inform the underlying data model, but more use cases are good.
14:16:20 [matt]
Andy: I'm concerned if we leave out some of the buckets then we risk having a format that doesn't fit.
14:16:33 [gary]
+q
14:17:06 [matt]
s/Topic: Action Review/Topic: Use Case Review/
14:17:09 [matt]
ack next
14:18:48 [matt]
gary: The two main things we probably need to flesh out face-to-face next week: the use cases people have put together with good depth and breadth, despite not being all-inclusive, we should split into groups, one to look at real world use cases and another to look at the underlying data representation.
14:19:14 [matt]
gary: Then another working on a straw man data format. Bring them together, see how they align, which blow holes in one another, etc.
14:19:17 [matt]
Andy: Good suggestion.
14:19:19 [matt]
+1
14:19:24 [alex_]
+1
14:19:31 [matt]
ack next
14:19:44 [matt]
alex_: That sounds like a good beginning for an agenda item next week.
14:20:33 [Andy]
+2
14:20:47 [matt]
gary: I'd like to get at the f2f something we're happy with, refinements, work to be done, etc. Something concrete to say to the powers that be: "this isn't just a talking shop, isn't an extremely long winded group that after five years comes out too late"
14:20:55 [matt]
alex_: I agree, something concrete should be the major goal.
14:21:00 [matt]
q+ to mention "fpwd"
14:21:01 [Andy]
+3
14:21:20 [matt]
ack next
14:21:21 [Zakim]
matt, you wanted to mention "fpwd"
14:21:30 [alex_]
yes, can hear
14:22:05 [gary]
"put out a first draft, don't be afraid to publish" ... +1 to that
14:22:18 [alex_]
+1 to first darft of sepcification
14:22:50 [matt]
zakim, mute me
14:22:50 [Zakim]
Matt should now be muted
14:23:22 [alex_]
+1
14:23:46 [matt]
Andy: Sounds like we're in agreement that some sort of pen-to-paper is the critical outcome of the f2f.
14:24:00 [matt]
Andy: Breakout groups on use cases and data format are useful as well. I'll craft something around that as a strawman.
14:24:20 [matt]
Andy: I'd hope to do the physical agenda creation at the meeting, but we'll have a good strawman based on these conversations.
14:24:20 [matt]
q?
14:24:34 [matt]
ACTION-16?
14:24:34 [trackbot]
ACTION-16 -- Andrew Braun to review specs mentioned on the list and to ping those who posted and see if they want to present on the next conference call -- due 2010-12-08 -- OPEN
14:24:34 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/actions/16
14:24:46 [matt]
Topic: Related Specifications
14:25:13 [matt]
Andy: I sent a few emails, but this will be an agenda point at the f2f. I'll have this action done before the end of the day tomorrow.
14:25:17 [matt]
ACTION-16 due 2010-12-10
14:25:17 [trackbot]
ACTION-16 Review specs mentioned on the list and to ping those who posted and see if they want to present on the next conference call due date now 2010-12-10
14:25:31 [matt]
q+ to ask about OGC specs and who knows what?
14:25:46 [matt]
Andy: We probably want to do these specs prior to the breakout.
14:25:51 [matt]
gary: Sounds quite reasonable.
14:26:12 [matt]
alex_: I think what I wanted to hear was that we'd try to make a stab at the spec before we go into breakout groups?
14:26:21 [matt]
s/spec/specs/
14:26:41 [alex_]
got it
14:26:41 [matt]
Andy: At the f2f we should review the specs from the page.
14:26:58 [matt]
Andy: For instance, alex_ would present KARML prior to the breakouts.
14:26:59 [matt]
q?
14:27:07 [matt]
ack next
14:27:10 [Zakim]
matt, you wanted to ask about OGC specs and who knows what?
14:27:52 [matt]
http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Related_Specifications
14:28:15 [matt]
zakim, mute me
14:28:15 [Zakim]
Matt should now be muted
14:28:28 [matt]
matt: Raj won't be at the f2f, we need someone to review those.
14:28:30 [matt]
zakim, unmute me
14:28:30 [Zakim]
Matt should no longer be muted
14:29:20 [JonathanJ]
JonathanJ has joined #poiwg
14:29:54 [matt]
matt: If someone could pick up some of the information on OGC, that would be great.
14:30:13 [matt]
alex_: I think we should take it upon ourselves to review some of these specs so we aren't flying blind next week.
14:30:15 [matt]
+1
14:31:23 [matt]
ACTION: Matt to send note to list to encourage review of specs
14:31:23 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-20 - Send note to list to encourage review of specs [on Matt Womer - due 2010-12-15].
14:32:14 [alex_]
+1 get a slide deck from Raj
14:33:02 [matt]
matt: My gut says we've got experts on: KARML, ARML, GML*, the SemWebby ones. Not all at the f2f unfortunately. But I think we're missing experts on GeoPriv, OpenStreetMap, etc.
14:33:41 [Andy]
q?
14:33:49 [matt]
ACTION-17?
14:33:49 [trackbot]
ACTION-17 -- Karl Seiler to add samples to flesh out the Anchor definition in the data model -- due 2010-12-08 -- OPEN
14:33:49 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/actions/17
14:33:55 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:33:55 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-poiwg-minutes.html matt
14:34:03 [matt]
rrsagent, make logs public
14:34:08 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:34:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-poiwg-minutes.html matt
14:34:16 [matt]
alex_: I think Karl said he hadn't gotten to it yet.
14:35:14 [matt]
ACTION-18?
14:35:14 [trackbot]
ACTION-18 -- Alex Hill to flesh out the 'extent' section of the data model -- due 2010-12-08 -- OPEN
14:35:14 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/actions/18
14:35:18 [matt]
alex_: I'll do it by the time we meet.
14:35:25 [matt]
ACTION-18 due 2010-12-13
14:35:25 [trackbot]
ACTION-18 Flesh out the 'extent' section of the data model due date now 2010-12-13
14:35:31 [matt]
ACTION-19?
14:35:31 [trackbot]
ACTION-19 -- Matt Womer to break out the datamodel with TBD sections in the wiki -- due 2010-12-08 -- OPEN
14:35:31 [trackbot]
http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/actions/19
14:35:45 [matt]
ACTION-19 close
14:36:13 [alex_]
+1 to a closed action item
14:36:17 [matt]
CLOSE ACTION-19
14:36:17 [trackbot]
ACTION-19 Break out the datamodel with TBD sections in the wiki closed
14:36:23 [matt]
Topic: F2F Agenda Creation
14:36:34 [matt]
Andy: I had three things:
14:36:58 [matt]
Andy: 1. Specs review 2. Use Case review 3. Doc Start
14:37:11 [matt]
Andy: I think we've got agreements on those. Are there other things that need to be on the agenda outside of what we talked about?
14:37:24 [matt]
Andy: Should we have a data model section?
14:37:36 [matt]
gary: I'd say that is probably the fourth part. It's sitting in between 1 and 3.
14:37:55 [matt]
gary: Probably go on co-simultaneously in breakout groups.
14:38:02 [Andy]
+1
14:38:30 [matt]
alex_: What is the breakout?
14:39:37 [matt]
gary: I'd say break out during the use case review into 2 or more groups: 1. review use cases with real world uses 2. the physical definition of a POI. Then regroup and utilize that new information to codify into a new first draft.
14:40:17 [matt]
alex_: That clarifies to me that we do this fourth item, that we sit down and figure out what we're going to write.
14:40:22 [matt]
+1
14:40:49 [matt]
gary: Will we have white boards and/or big sort of A3 size pads for scribbling? Net access? Projection?
14:41:02 [matt]
alex_: That sounds great, I'll do everything I can to accommodate that. I think we can.
14:41:16 [matt]
Andy: If anything else needs to get there, let me know sometime monday morning.
14:41:52 [matt]
alex_: We've got them if we need them. I will send out between Andy and I some sort of doc describing more formally where to go, etc.
14:42:36 [matt]
gary: Hopefully we will all have phones to get us there. Also, halfway decent coffee would help.
14:43:30 [matt]
alex_: When you're on the ground, the address is going to have to have more information to get there without confusion.
14:43:39 [matt]
gary: Sounds like a use case.
14:43:48 [matt]
gary: Use each of the services and see how easy it is to get there.
14:44:13 [Andy]
ACTION: Andy to talk with OGC about overview presentation
14:44:13 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-21 - Talk with OGC about overview presentation [on Andrew Braun - due 2010-12-15].
14:44:48 [matt]
Andy: The other thing about the agenda, I tend to err on the side of less is better. Given that we have four pretty broad topics here, there's maybe one or two things we might add that are more specific, but not a whole lot.
14:44:48 [gary]
+1 to flexible and less rigid agendas
14:44:59 [alex_]
+1 too many agenda items just lets us stay on cruise control
14:45:08 [Luca]
+1 flexible agenda
14:45:14 [matt]
+1 we always end up creating new agenda items in the meeting itself.
14:45:31 [matt]
alex_: Sometimes too rigid an agenda puts the meeting on cruise control and makes it hard to get to the real work.
14:45:40 [matt]
Topic: Announcements
14:45:44 [matt]
q+
14:46:08 [matt]
Andy: Christine has her AR standards workshop in Barcelona.
14:46:17 [matt]
Gary: A general question: do we know the headcount for next week?
14:46:21 [matt]
Andy: 9 I think.
14:46:28 [matt]
ack next
14:46:31 [JonathanJ]
+1 clarification
14:47:05 [matt]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/45386/POI-F2F-2010-1/
14:48:23 [matt]
zakim, mute me
14:48:23 [Zakim]
Matt should now be muted
14:48:30 [matt]
matt: Please register for the f2f!
14:48:37 [alex_]
+1 done
14:48:40 [matt]
matt: Also if you are interested in being an editor, please contact andy and I.
14:48:50 [alex_]
+1
14:48:54 [matt]
gary: Sounds like we're done! For those that will be there next week, I look forward to meeting you.
14:48:57 [matt]
zakim, unmute me
14:48:57 [Zakim]
Matt should no longer be muted
14:49:09 [Zakim]
-Gary
14:49:10 [Zakim]
-Matt
14:49:12 [Zakim]
-Andy
14:49:29 [Zakim]
-Luca
14:49:44 [Luca]
Luca has left #poiwg
14:49:45 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:49:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-poiwg-minutes.html matt
14:49:45 [Andy]
Jonathan I will add to the agenda
14:49:59 [matt]
s/add/add AR notes/
14:50:11 [matt]
rrsagent, draft minutes
14:50:11 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/08-poiwg-minutes.html matt
14:53:28 [matt]
rrsagent, stop