IRC log of sparql on 2010-12-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:51:22 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #sparql

14:51:22 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/07-sparql-irc

14:51:31 [AxelPolleres]

trackbot, this will be sparql

14:51:31 [trackbot]

Sorry, AxelPolleres, I don't understand 'trackbot, this will be sparql'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

14:51:42 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #sparql

14:51:51 [AxelPolleres]

zakim, this will be SPARQL

14:51:51 [Zakim]

ok, AxelPolleres; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 9 minutes

14:52:01 [AxelPolleres]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/wiki/Agenda-2010-12-07

14:52:45 [AxelPolleres]

(don't get schocked by the agenda updates, top list of topics remained the same, just tried to add links to latest mails for reference)

14:57:46 [LeeF]

trackbot, start meeting

14:57:48 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

14:57:50 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be 77277

14:57:50 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

14:57:51 [trackbot]

Meeting: SPARQL Working Group Teleconference

14:57:51 [trackbot]

Date: 07 December 2010

14:57:54 [LeeF]

zakim, this will be SPARQL

14:57:54 [Zakim]

ok, LeeF; I see SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes

14:58:02 [Zakim]

SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has now started

14:58:10 [Zakim]

+AxelPolleres

14:58:16 [Zakim]

+LeeF

14:59:02 [Zakim]

+SteveH

14:59:24 [Zakim]

+kasei

14:59:54 [Zakim]

+Sandro

14:59:58 [MattPerry]

MattPerry has joined #sparql

15:00:05 [chimezie]

chimezie has joined #sparql

15:00:31 [Zakim]

+Chimezie_Ogbuji

15:00:42 [Zakim]

+MattPerry

15:01:12 [AndyS]

Booting up ...

15:01:20 [AxelPolleres]

alright...

15:01:58 [AxelPolleres]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:01:59 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AxelPolleres, LeeF, SteveH, kasei, Sandro, Chimezie_Ogbuji, MattPerry

15:02:20 [Zakim]

+Simon

15:02:40 [AndyS]

zakim, get a move on

15:02:40 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'get a move on', AndyS

15:02:56 [Souri]

Souri has joined #sparql

15:03:01 [AxelPolleres]

scribe: Chime

15:03:14 [AndyS]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:03:14 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AxelPolleres, LeeF, SteveH, kasei, Sandro, Chimezie_Ogbuji, MattPerry, Simon

15:03:19 [AxelPolleres]

Zakim, Simon is actually AndyS

15:03:19 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'Simon is actually AndyS', AxelPolleres

15:03:22 [Zakim]

-Simon

15:03:23 [Zakim]

+??P25

15:03:42 [AxelPolleres]

Zakim, ??P25 is Souri

15:03:42 [Zakim]

+Souri; got it

15:03:48 [Zakim]

+??P21

15:03:54 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P21 is me

15:03:54 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

15:04:18 [chimezie]

LeeF: want to finish functional libraries discussion

15:04:24 [AxelPolleres]

tpoic: admin

15:04:37 [AxelPolleres]

PROPOSED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-30

15:05:07 [AxelPolleres]

RESOLVED: Approve minutes at http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/meeting/2010-11-30

15:05:14 [Zakim]

+pgearon

15:05:17 [chimezie]

Zakim, mute me

15:05:17 [Zakim]

Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted

15:05:49 [chimezie]

AxelPolleres: New comment from David Beckett

15:05:58 [chimezie]

... Carlos volunteered to draft reply

15:05:59 [SteveH]

I can reply to dave

15:06:03 [SteveH]

it's mostly about my stuff

15:06:34 [AxelPolleres]

ACTION: SteveH draft reply to Dave Beckett's comment

15:06:34 [trackbot]

Created ACTION-340 - Draft reply to Dave Beckett's comment [on Steve Harris - due 2010-12-14].

15:07:16 [AxelPolleres]

topic: function library

15:07:58 [chimezie]

AxelPolleres: piped literals v.s. plain literals for arguments in return types

15:08:18 [SteveH]

+1 to s/LENGTH/STRLEN/g

15:08:20 [chimezie]

AxelPolleres: Andy proposed to renam LEN to STRLEN (hope no objections)

15:08:23 [sandro]

+1

15:08:24 [Souri]

+1

15:08:25 [LeeF]

yup

15:08:42 [chimezie]

s/piped/typed

15:08:51 [AxelPolleres]

://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0361.html

15:09:07 [AxelPolleres]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2010OctDec/0361.html

15:09:43 [chimezie]

Andy: put aside CONCAT

15:09:56 [chimezie]

... for all others, work on one string (mostly)

15:10:27 [chimezie]

AndyS: language tags coming in, go out (same with xsd:string datatype)

15:10:41 [chimezie]

... arguments are treated as characters (exactly the same lang tag) can be compared

15:11:10 [chimezie]

... implying something stronger will not work

15:11:17 [chimezie]

.. either false or errors

15:11:39 [chimezie]

... problematic to assume language tags have a hierarchy - gets tricky

15:12:44 [chimezie]

Sandro: common case is @en. Will this prevent use of this?

15:12:49 [AxelPolleres]

sandro: en vs en-US vs. en-UK

15:12:53 [AxelPolleres]

?

15:13:12 [Souri]

STARTS("abc"@en, "a"@en-UK) can be replaced with STARTS(ENCODES(?str1),ENCODES(?str2)), right?

15:13:20 [chimezie]

AndyS: STR can be used to remove language tag

15:13:40 [pgearon]

AncyS, so are you saying that startsWith("foobar"@en, "foo") will not work?

15:13:54 [pgearon]

s/AncyS/AndyS/

15:13:55 [AndyS]

pgearon - will work.

15:14:11 [chimezie]

AndyS: second argument doesn't have language tag, so example will work

15:14:24 [kasei]

I think sandro's use case if important. STARTS("foo"@en-UK, "f"@en) -- match all english literals regardless of UK, US, etc.

15:14:32 [SteveH]

startsWith("foobar"@en-GB, "foo"@en-US) is what won't work, right?

15:14:46 [chimezie]

AxelPolleres: worry about derived datatypes?

15:15:29 [chimezie]

AndyS: don't know how to make Steve's example work without analyzing the language tags

15:15:57 [AxelPolleres]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#built-in-derived derived types? e.g. xs:NCName vs xs:string do we need to worry?

15:16:01 [kasei]

I think the language comparison should be grounded in langMatches()

15:17:02 [chimezie]

AndyS: derived types get naturally handled by super type

15:17:15 [chimezie]

AxelPolleres: in any combination?

15:17:49 [chimezie]

AndyS: not required to support those types currently in SPARQL

15:17:49 [SteveH]

kasei, interesting idea

15:18:29 [AxelPolleres]

starts( "abc"^^xs:string, "a"^^xsd:NCName)

15:19:07 [kasei]

q+

15:19:18 [kasei]

(sorry. i keep posting things in irc)

15:19:51 [chimezie]

Greg: for these operations (comparison on languages) it should be based on langMatches function

15:20:02 [LeeF]

ack karl

15:20:04 [LeeF]

ack kasei

15:20:17 [chimezie]

... want to query across variations of english for *all* languages, using langMatches will support this

15:20:22 [chimezie]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:20:22 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AxelPolleres, LeeF, SteveH, kasei, Sandro, Chimezie_Ogbuji (muted), MattPerry, Souri, AndyS, pgearon

15:20:27 [AxelPolleres]

q?

15:20:33 [kasei]

STARTS("foo"@en-UK, "f"@en)

15:21:03 [chimezie]

AndyS: don't know how to make that work in all possible cases

15:21:18 [pgearon]

+q

15:21:24 [AxelPolleres]

q?

15:21:38 [chimezie]

... not sure if langMatches covers everything

15:22:01 [SteveH]

LANGMATCHES("en-UK", "en") is true, LANGMATCHES("en", "en-UK") is false

15:22:08 [AxelPolleres]

calling STR + langmatches explicitly seems to cover kasei's use case?

15:22:14 [chimezie]

Paul: sounds like big task for small usecase. don't want to mandate implementations in this way

15:22:21 [chimezie]

... too detailed to specify

15:22:27 [kasei]

pgearon, we already mandate langMatches support, though, right?

15:23:00 [SteveH]

q+

15:23:05 [chimezie]

Paul: My typical usecase is a single language

15:23:34 [chimezie]

SteveH: (support for lang tags). Use two types of english in my RDF store

15:23:46 [SteveH]

+ german, french and italian

15:24:14 [chimezie]

AxelPolleres: haven't heard concrete alternative proposal

15:24:18 [SteveH]

but, I'm OK with what Andy suggests

15:24:20 [chimezie]

... move forward or think about it?

15:24:47 [chimezie]

AndyS: german / austrian - same word , different characters

15:25:15 [AxelPolleres]

"Januar"@de-DE = "Jänner"@de-AT (January)

15:25:18 [chimezie]

... an element of not saying lang matches are in terms of content and not character manipulation

15:25:44 [chimezie]

SteveH: STR is a decent fallback

15:26:09 [SteveH]

...bu I don't think users would expect STARTS() to care about lang tag

15:26:12 [chimezie]

AxelPolleres: objections to moving forward with this?

15:26:34 [chimezie]

AndyS: if mismatches is an error, then it is an extension point

15:26:37 [SteveH]

-1 to it being an error

15:27:09 [chimezie]

SteveH: rather false. If expecting an error can strip out w/ STR

15:27:23 [chimezie]

... 99% of usecases, starts is called with pair of literals where language tags are not of concern

15:28:28 [kasei]

q+

15:28:50 [SteveH]

q-

15:28:54 [chimezie]

AxelPolleres: didn't discuss concatenation - anything missing regarding this?

15:29:06 [chimezie]

AndyS: took that out of equation (complicated)

15:29:40 [pgearon]

q-

15:30:15 [chimezie]

... cases here are regarding mixture of language tags (what happens) or mixture of simple and xsd;string

15:30:30 [chimezie]

... for former, return simple strings (after attempt to resolve language tags)

15:31:47 [AxelPolleres]

concat ( "a"@en, "b"^^string, "c")

15:31:48 [AxelPolleres]

?

15:32:28 [AxelPolleres]

= "abc"@en

15:32:33 [AxelPolleres]

concat ( "b"^^string, "c")

15:32:42 [AxelPolleres]

"bc"^^xs:string

15:32:52 [chimezie]

AndyS: I'm proposing this

15:32:53 [AxelPolleres]

(andy)

15:33:00 [chimezie]

SteveH: prefer return simple literal

15:33:00 [AxelPolleres]

"bc" (steve)

15:33:39 [chimezie]

AndyS: people often use xsd:string by mistake (tools do their own thing)

15:34:11 [chimezie]

... want to avoid forcing into a datatype that wasn't in data

15:34:33 [AndyS]

CONCAT("a"^^xsd:string, "") -> "a" or "a"^^xsd:string

15:34:42 [chimezie]

SteveH: result would be suprising if I get xsd;string back

15:34:53 [chimezie]

... also question of consistency

15:35:45 [AxelPolleres]

strawpoll CONCAT("a"^^xsd:string, "") -> "a" (vote 1) or "a"^^xsd:string (vote 2)

15:35:50 [SteveH]

AndyS, or, a more real world example CONCAT(?var, "")

15:35:53 [chimezie]

if STR can be used to forcibly strip out lang tags, then it would seem preffered to maintain them

15:36:05 [chimezie]

2

15:36:08 [Souri]

q+

15:36:11 [kasei]

1 (very mild preference)

15:36:18 [MattPerry]

1

15:36:21 [SteveH]

1

15:36:29 [SteveH]

(but not stong pref)

15:36:29 [AxelPolleres]

1 (mildly)

15:36:34 [kasei]

q-

15:36:42 [AndyS]

2

15:36:46 [Souri]

1 (mildly)

15:36:58 [AxelPolleres]

q?

15:37:24 [LeeF]

I'm pretty happy with always returning simple or always returning xsd:string. Using xsd:string(...) or STR(...) just isn't a big deal to me.

15:37:28 [chimezie]

Souri: difference betwen "a" and "a"^^xsd:string (should be equivalent). one is just longer representation of same thing

15:37:33 [LeeF]

Also happy with anything in between.

15:37:53 [kasei]

LeeF, me too, except not anything in between! :)

15:37:56 [AndyS]

q+

15:38:20 [Souri]

q-

15:38:30 [AxelPolleres]

ack AndyS

15:38:41 [chimezie]

AndyS: in RDF MT they are the same value but not same term

15:39:05 [AxelPolleres]

but aren't they only the same value in D entailment?

15:39:05 [chimezie]

Souri: two lexical forms of same canonical value

15:39:46 [chimezie]

my preference isn't strong

15:41:06 [chimezie]

SteveH: advice to editor is fine

15:41:21 [AxelPolleres]

advice to the editors is to go ahead with returning plain literals only, in case of miced input

15:41:26 [AndyS]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:41:26 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AxelPolleres, LeeF, SteveH, kasei, Sandro, Chimezie_Ogbuji (muted), MattPerry, Souri, AndyS, pgearon

15:41:57 [chimezie]

Sandro: record as resolved since we have consensus

15:42:50 [AxelPolleres]

PROPOSED: CONCAT returns plain literals in case of mixed input (plain, typed) literals and inherits language tags if not ambiguous.

15:43:42 [chimezie]

AndyS: doesn't capture discussion

15:44:25 [AxelPolleres]

PROPOSED: CONCAT returns simple literals in case of mixed input (simple, typed) literals

15:44:40 [SteveH]

+1

15:44:42 [AndyS]

abstain

15:44:57 [sandro]

+1

15:45:11 [AxelPolleres]

RESOLVED: CONCAT returns simple literals in case of mixed input (simple, typed) literals

15:45:47 [AxelPolleres]

RESOLVED: CONCAT returns simple literals in case of mixed input (simple, typed) literals (one abstention)

15:46:39 [AxelPolleres]

topic: inclusion of SHA*/MD5 functions

15:47:20 [SteveH]

q+

15:47:22 [chimezie]

AxelPolleres: SHA-1 and/or SHA-2

15:47:26 [AxelPolleres]

SHA1 vs. SHA-2? http://www.w3.org/mid/1291424556.4437.26.camel@waldron

15:47:31 [chimezie]

is there implementation burden to do both?

15:47:52 [chimezie]

SteveH: should have both

15:48:30 [chimezie]

AxelPolleres: issue with key length?

15:48:41 [AxelPolleres]

keylength? argument or in the function name? http://www.w3.org/mid/AANLkTinb5WngJ6CKyKbL1K40j7Gv80zDUrFsYUL40TOa@mail.gmail.com

15:48:45 [chimezie]

Sandro: SHA-2 has variable key length

15:49:00 [chimezie]

... do we allow key length to be a parameter to function?

15:49:01 [AndyS]

SHA-224, SHA-256, SHA-384, SHA-512

15:49:04 [SteveH]

there's 4 keys lengs

15:49:05 [chimezie]

... no preference

15:49:18 [SteveH]

256 and 512 are more common, in my experience

15:49:19 [AndyS]

are the 4 kinds

15:49:21 [MattPerry]

FYI: Oracle Database supports MD4, MD5 and SHA-1

15:50:00 [sandro]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHA-2

15:50:07 [chimezie]

AndyS: same procedure, seeded differently

15:50:09 [AxelPolleres]

so we talk about 5 functions here: SHA-1, SHA-224, SHA-256, SHA-384, SHA-512 ?

15:50:23 [chimezie]

or 2 (where the latter is parameterized)?

15:50:57 [chimezie]

Sandro: agree to be compliant with standard branding (re-use their common names)

15:51:10 [chimezie]

... might shift however. SHA-3 for instance

15:51:51 [AxelPolleres]

SHA1 SHA224, SHA256, etc?

15:52:02 [chimezie]

AndyS: those are names of algorithms (happen to be key lengths w/ SHA-2)

15:52:02 [AxelPolleres]

... as function names?

15:54:17 [AndyS]

http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/fips/fips180-3/fips180-3_final.pdf

15:54:33 [sandro]

SHA1(....)

15:54:38 [AndyS]

is the standard (latest revision)

15:54:42 [AxelPolleres]

SHA1(x), SHA224(x), SHA256(x), ... vs. SHA1(x), SHA2(x, 224), SHA2(x , 256), ...

15:55:26 [AxelPolleres]

strawpoll: SHA1(x), SHA224(x), SHA256(x), ... - vote 1 vs. SHA1(x), SHA2(x, 224), SHA2(x , 256), ... - vote 2

15:55:31 [SteveH]

1

15:55:32 [chimezie]

2

15:55:43 [kasei]

0

15:55:49 [sandro]

2

15:55:52 [AndyS]

1

15:55:52 [AxelPolleres]

0

15:55:55 [MattPerry]

2

15:56:07 [pgearon]

1

15:56:12 [Souri]

2

15:56:15 [LeeF]

0

15:56:31 [SteveH]

q+

15:56:58 [chimezie]

SteveH: some are actually different algorithms

15:57:09 [MattPerry]

changing my vote to 1

15:57:10 [chimezie]

... 4 key lengths and 2 algorithms

15:57:11 [Souri]

Would we *require* support for *all* these functions in an implementation for conformance?

15:57:31 [chimezie]

Zakim, unmute me

15:57:31 [Zakim]

Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted

15:57:38 [Souri]

changing to 1

15:58:27 [chimezie]

implementations tend to rely on existing libraries for this kind of thing

15:58:36 [chimezie]

if not available in (say Java or Python) could be problematic

15:58:38 [chimezie]

for full compliance

15:58:41 [SteveH]

kasei, I think this is just about naming

15:59:27 [SteveH]

chimezie, there are implementations in java and python

15:59:38 [kasei]

SteveH, yeah ok. still, though. feels like we keep taking on functions.

15:59:43 [chimezie]

ok

15:59:52 [chimezie]

Zakim, mute me

15:59:52 [Zakim]

Chimezie_Ogbuji should now be muted

15:59:58 [kasei]

I'm happy leaving it to the editors.

16:00:01 [MattPerry]

I would rather leave out sha-2 but I won't object

16:00:32 [Zakim]

-LeeF

16:00:41 [AndyS]

"Federal agencies should stop using SHA-1 for.. after 2010" - NIST

16:00:46 [sandro]

PROPOSED: SPARQL function library will include SHA1() , SHA224(), SHA256(), SHA384(), SHA512()

16:00:55 [SteveH]

MD5?

16:00:57 [pgearon]

+1

16:01:08 [AndyS]

+MD5

16:01:15 [Zakim]

-MattPerry

16:01:19 [sandro]

PROPOSED: SPARQL function library will include MD5(), SHA1() , SHA224(), SHA256(), SHA384(), SHA512()

16:01:24 [SteveH]

+1

16:01:26 [pgearon]

+1

16:01:27 [sandro]

+1

16:01:27 [chimezie]

0

16:01:34 [Souri]

+1 to MD5

16:01:41 [chimezie]

Zakim, unmute me

16:01:42 [Zakim]

Chimezie_Ogbuji should no longer be muted

16:02:17 [AxelPolleres]

RESOLVED: SPARQL function library will include MD5(), SHA1() , SHA224(), SHA256(), SHA384(), SHA512()

16:02:28 [chimezie]

bye

16:02:31 [Zakim]

-Chimezie_Ogbuji

16:02:35 [Zakim]

-Souri

16:02:36 [AxelPolleres]

adjourned

16:02:38 [SteveH]

bye all

16:02:39 [Zakim]

-SteveH

16:02:51 [Zakim]

-kasei

16:02:58 [Zakim]

-AndyS

16:02:59 [AxelPolleres]

rrsagent. make records public

16:03:01 [Zakim]

-Sandro

16:03:06 [Zakim]

-pgearon

16:03:22 [AxelPolleres]

rrsagent, make records public

16:03:29 [Zakim]

-AxelPolleres

16:03:30 [Zakim]

SW_(SPARQL)10:00AM has ended

16:03:31 [Zakim]

Attendees were AxelPolleres, LeeF, SteveH, kasei, Sandro, Chimezie_Ogbuji, MattPerry, Simon, Souri, AndyS, pgearon

16:22:32 [SteveH]

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