14:20:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #lld
14:20:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-irc
14:20:48 <TomB> rrsagent, bookmark
14:20:48 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-irc#T14-20-48
14:21:00 <TomB> zakim, this will be lld
14:21:00 <Zakim> ok, TomB; I see INC_LLDXG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 39 minutes
14:21:05 <TomB> Meeting: LLD XG
14:21:09 <TomB> Chair: Tom
14:21:22 <TomB> rrsagent, please make record public
14:21:37 <TomB> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0006.html
14:21:43 <TomB> Previous: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/lld/minutes/2010/11/25-lld-minutes.html
14:21:51 <TomB> Regrets: Ed, Jodi, Emmanuelle, Joachim, Guenther
14:43:46 <jeff_> jeff_ has joined #lld
14:49:57 <Asaf_> Asaf_ has joined #lld
14:51:11 <ksclarke> ksclarke has joined #lld
14:51:55 <antoine> antoine has joined #lld
14:51:56 <ksclarke> ksclarke has left #lld
14:51:59 <michaelp> michaelp has joined #lld
14:53:09 <markva> markva has joined #lld
14:54:35 <Zakim> INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has now started
14:54:42 <Zakim> +??P4
14:54:48 <antoine> zakim, ??P4 is me
14:54:48 <Zakim> +antoine; got it
14:55:04 <antoine> rrsagent, please draft minutes
14:55:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-minutes.html antoine
14:55:51 <Zakim> +jeff_
14:56:24 <kai> kai has joined #lld
14:57:21 <antoine> Regrets+ Marcia
14:57:41 <Zakim> +??P6
14:57:56 <antoine> zakim, ??P6 is kai
14:57:56 <Zakim> +kai; got it
14:58:20 <Zakim> +jeff_.a
14:58:34 <michaelp> zakim, jeff_.a is really me
14:58:34 <Zakim> +michaelp; got it
14:58:48 <Zakim> +??P8
14:58:58 <antoine> zakim, ??P8 is TomB
14:58:58 <Zakim> +TomB; got it
14:59:09 <kefo> kefo has joined #lld
14:59:09 <antoine> zakim, who is here?
14:59:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see antoine, jeff_, kai, michaelp, TomB
14:59:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see kefo, kai, markva, michaelp, antoine, Asaf_, jeff_, RRSAgent, Zakim, TomB, danbri, ww, digikim
14:59:25 <Zakim> +[LC]
14:59:32 <kefo> zakim, LC is me
14:59:32 <Zakim> +kefo; got it
14:59:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:59:45 <antoine> zakim, IPcaller is Asaf
14:59:48 <Zakim> sorry, antoine, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
14:59:57 <AlexanderH> AlexanderH has joined #lld
14:59:58 <Marcia> Marcia has joined #lld
15:00:10 <TomB> Scribe: Kefo
15:00:15 <TomB> scribenick: kefo
15:00:29 <michaelp> zakim, mute me
15:00:31 <Zakim> michaelp should now be muted
15:00:35 <pmurray> pmurray has joined #lld
15:00:38 <kefo> zakim, mute me
15:00:38 <Zakim> kefo should now be muted
15:00:51 <jeff_> zakim, mute me
15:00:51 <Zakim> jeff_ should now be muted
15:02:12 <Zakim> +pmurray
15:02:16 <markva> zakim threw me out...
15:02:29 <pmurray> zakim ack me
15:03:24 <Zakim> +markva
15:04:39 <markva> zakim, mute me
15:04:39 <Zakim> markva should now be muted
15:05:47 <kefo> topic: Admin
15:06:05 <ed_> ed_ has joined #lld
15:06:05 <rayd> rayd has joined #lld
15:06:11 <kefo> Resolved: Accept previous minutes
15:06:51 <kefo> Topic: F2F in Cologne
15:07:01 <TomB> s/Resolved/RESOLVED/
15:07:06 <Zakim> +??P29
15:07:10 <kefo> s/Topic/TOPIC
15:07:13 <edsu> zakim, +??P29 is edsu
15:07:14 <Zakim> sorry, edsu, I do not recognize a party named '+??P29'
15:07:24 <antoine> zakim, ??P29 is edsu
15:07:24 <Zakim> +edsu; got it
15:07:48 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:07:53 <Zakim> +[LC]
15:07:53 <digikim> Zakim, [IPcaller] is digikim
15:07:54 <Zakim> +digikim; got it
15:08:02 <antoine> zakim, LC is rayd
15:08:02 <Zakim> +rayd; got it
15:08:25 <kefo> Antoine: Small, informal mtg in Cologne
15:08:31 <antoine> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0005.html
15:09:11 <kefo> ... Talked about topics of incubator group
15:09:28 <kefo> ... and future outcomes of the group
15:10:03 <kefo> ... perhaps it would be best to distribute a written report
15:10:21 <aconstan> aconstan has joined #lld
15:10:31 <kefo> Tomb: let's discuss the issue of terminology
15:10:41 <kefo> ... but first attend to current agenda items
15:11:08 <kefo> ... maybe in next calls we establish shared terminology
15:11:45 <kefo> antoine: met for 4 hours
15:12:07 <kefo> tomb: should we continue with agenda and distribute notes by another method
15:12:52 <kefo> TOPIC: JISC Open Bibliographic Data Guide 
15:13:19 <kefo> antoine: participants believe it best to conduct conversation via email
15:13:28 <kefo> ... and only later talk about specific items on calls
15:13:59 <kefo> tomb: discuss in future calls
15:14:06 <kefo> ... keep placemarker for future calls
15:14:44 <kefo> TOPIC: CITATION CLUSTER
15:15:33 <kai> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MhYl8Iz8raHA0M7jnHrzwiC_MmXnDM4aNG2ymVCz9rM/edit?hl=en&authkey=CKzY3YQH
15:16:08 <Zakim> -edsu
15:16:08 <kefo> kai: problems defining what was expected from cluster
15:16:22 <kefo> ... would like feedback from group 
15:16:35 <Zakim> +[LC]
15:16:39 <edsu> Zakim, LC is edsu
15:16:39 <Zakim> +edsu; got it
15:16:53 <kefo> ... began by defining a citation
15:17:24 <kefo> ... based on use cases, concluded needed a broader definition than just something bibliograrphic
15:18:09 <kefo> ... discussed scope of cluster
15:18:34 <kefo> ... citing, citations, citation format, link/cite difference, and backlinks in scope
15:18:45 <fsasaki> fsasaki has joined #lld
15:19:06 <kefo> ... out of scope: defining new citation representations
15:19:34 <kefo> ... also identified citation granularity as relevant
15:19:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:20:08 <fsasaki> present+ Felix
15:21:04 <kefo> ... level 1 is a basic string in the text of a publication
15:21:27 <kefo> ... level 2 is a structured citation
15:21:36 <kefo> ... level 3 actually linked citation
15:24:47 <kefo> ... identified a few additional use cases 
15:25:17 <kefo> ... ability to register agreeement/disagreement with citation
15:25:40 <kefo> ... and jumping to cited resource are two examples
15:27:32 <markva> this appears to overlap with Goals and Scenario (emma's suggestion)
15:28:01 <kefo> ... next step is to extract requirements from these added use cases.
15:29:22 <kefo> ... provided a section detailing existing technologies and vocabularies that may be helpful moving forward
15:30:36 <TomB> q+ 
15:30:44 <kefo> ... also identified new questions that may need to be addressed
15:30:46 <TomB> ack TomB
15:32:20 <kefo> TomB: good start.  I see a definition of citations in the scope of linked data.  What is the function of a citation in linked data and how can that function be achieved (uris are one way)?
15:32:50 <kefo> ... What other ways might there be to identify citations in a linked data environment?
15:34:14 <kefo> ... I would expect citation cluster to frame the problem of what is a citation in a LD context and then look at use cases to determine the ways and methods that are employed to address problem.
15:34:57 <kefo> kai: I'd like to take a step back and ask what we hope to achieve with the documents we're producing about the clusters
15:35:08 <markva> +1
15:35:10 <kefo> ... We certainly need our own definition for citations in linked data
15:36:04 <kefo> TomB: It is important to start with defining a citation in light of linked data adn then go on to explore how that is manifested in the use cases
15:36:19 <kefo> ... Why work in the Google Docs enviro versus XG wiki?
15:36:34 <edsu> better for live editing ...
15:36:50 <kefo> ... Technical reason or a desire not to show work-in-progress
15:36:54 <jeff_> better for simultaneous collaborative editing
15:37:05 <edsu> q+
15:37:06 <kefo> kai: We'll be moving to Wiki soon.
15:37:12 <TomB> ack edsu
15:38:06 <markva> q+
15:38:29 <kefo> edsu: Thanks kai for thorough description of our work to-date.  TomB, I hear your concerns.  In my mind, LD is a technology and one that can be used to represent citations.  But, w/o knowing what a citation is in the ansence of technology, we can't identify the needs for LD.
15:38:35 <TomB> +1 to define citations generically before saying what they mean in the linked data context
15:38:59 <TomB> ack markva
15:39:49 <kefo> markva: Lots of interesting material.  procedural question:  If you merge into Wiki, will it break into different sections?
15:40:04 <edsu> s/ansence/absence/
15:40:12 <kefo> ... What is the structure of the document we're all working toward based on the clusters.
15:40:15 <antoine> I think the 'extracted use cases' are indeed Emma's 'scenarios'
15:40:56 <kefo> TomB: Could be useful to have a scaffolding of subsections, with idea that for final report we cut out superfluous sub-headings
15:41:23 <edsu> q+ 
15:41:31 <kefo> markva: I don't know if I understand.  We only have structure for use cases.
15:41:58 <kefo> TomB: Let's not worry about establishing a formal template for the cluster reports right now.  
15:42:14 <antoine> q+
15:42:33 <markva> ZAKIM< MUTE ME
15:42:36 <kefo> ... INclined to let groups develop a structure best-suited to their findings
15:43:13 <markva> zakim, mute me
15:43:14 <kefo> ... Let's get it on paper and then determine areas of overlap and streamlined organization
15:43:16 <Zakim> markva should now be muted
15:43:56 <TomB> ack edsu
15:44:19 <kefo> edsu: I want to echo Mark's points.  
15:45:20 <kefo> ... If there is a specific goal for hte group, it would help the groups focus their work.
15:45:33 <antoine> +1
15:45:39 <pmurray> I agree with edsu; more structure would have been helpful for our conversation.
15:45:44 <TomB> ack antoine
15:45:51 <kefo> ... Otherwise, the disparity in the resulting documents might require a great deal of massaging in the end.
15:45:59 <kefo> antoine: I agree fully with Ed.
15:46:08 <edsu> +1
15:46:12 <edsu> :-)
15:47:42 <kai> +1, but maybe we should have the presentation of a very different cluster first to see the differences and similarities.
15:47:42 <Zakim> +??P11
15:47:46 <danbri> zakim, ??P11 is danbri
15:47:46 <Zakim> +danbri; got it
15:48:29 <kefo> TomB: Believes groups need some latitude in creating their reports.
15:49:04 <kefo> ... But, perhaps, we could work to identify 3 or 4 headings that might be shared across all the groups.
15:49:41 <kefo> ... Is this a reasonable compromise.  We don't lose time defining a template, but we do determine a few headings that apply across all the clusters.
15:49:44 <pmurray> I agree, if it can be done at this point.
15:50:02 <kefo> edsu: I think this would be useful, especially if we can identify the 3 or 4 headings quickly
15:50:22 <markva> +1
15:50:27 <kefo> ... This would help to provide some guidance to the others.
15:50:38 <antoine> +q
15:50:44 <kefo> TomB: nearing the end.  Anything else?
15:50:47 <TomB> ack antoine
15:51:28 <kefo> antoine: I have two headings:  I like hte relevant technologies/vocabularies section.
15:51:31 <kefo> what was teh other?
15:52:00 <kai> Extracted Use Cases / Scenarios, however we name it
15:52:08 <kefo> antoine: for a third, I like the background definitions.  Such as, in the citation example, where what a citation is defined - the intoductory section
15:52:26 <kefo> ... the second was the extracted use cases / scenarios section
15:52:48 <kefo> edsu: Kai, Peter, and I can rework the document to fit the proposed headings
15:53:31 <edsu> i have 1) Background 2) Topic in the Context of Linked Data 3) Scenarios (Extracted Use Cases) 4) Relevant Technologies Vocabularies
15:53:56 <kefo> ACTION: Citation cluster group to place Google Docs document into XG Wiki
15:54:02 <edsu> markva: would be interested to hear if this fits how you've been thinking about it
15:54:23 <kefo> TOPIC: PAUL WALK'S TOOL AND ANALYSIS
15:54:33 <kefo> TomB: Must this remain on the agenda?
15:54:50 <kefo> ... I propose we remove it otherwise.
15:54:57 <Asaf_> +1
15:54:58 <edsu> +1
15:55:13 <kefo> ACTION: Remove PAUL WALK'S TOOL AND ANALYSIS from Agenda
15:55:39 <kefo> TOPIC: DRAFT OUTLINE FOR FINAL REPORT
15:56:53 <antoine> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xg-lld/2010Dec/0005.html
15:57:23 <kefo> antoine: Two primary topics for the draft that we think we're missing, related to education and outreach
15:58:07 <kefo> ... firstly, wanted to emphasize opportunities of LD for libraries and other users.  We need some scenarios demonstrating _why_ a library would want to do LD
15:58:21 <kefo> ... a type of benefits section at the front of report
15:58:41 <kefo> ... targeting library managers/administrators
15:59:41 <kefo> ... secondly, education.  Guenther was interested in what the curricula for training or what the qualifications a library professional would need for LD
16:00:12 <kefo> ... Guenther is going to establish a Wiki page for this.
16:01:00 <Zakim> -edsu
16:01:30 <pmurray> That is huge, and important.
16:02:03 <kefo> TomB: Propose we put an intro section into the report outline with and Education section
16:02:42 <kefo> zakim, unmure mme
16:02:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmure mme', kefo
16:02:43 <Zakim> -rayd
16:02:45 <kefo> zakim, unmute me
16:02:46 <Zakim> kefo should no longer be muted
16:02:53 <jeff_> jeff_ has left #lld
16:02:54 <Zakim> -danbri
16:02:56 <Zakim> -pmurray
16:02:57 <Zakim> -Felix
16:02:57 <markva> bye
16:02:59 <Zakim> -digikim
16:03:01 <Zakim> -jeff_
16:03:03 <Zakim> -michaelp
16:03:05 <Zakim> -Asaf_
16:03:07 <Zakim> -markva
16:03:12 <danbri> yay, my first LLD call. all of 13 minutes!
16:03:15 <digikim> thanks
16:03:18 <antoine> zakim, please list attendees
16:03:18 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been antoine, jeff_, kai, michaelp, TomB, kefo, Asaf_, pmurray, markva, edsu, digikim, rayd, [IPcaller], Felix, danbri
16:03:35 <TomB> ACTION: Antoine to add "LOD curriculum" into "recommendations" section of Outline, and benefits into an Introduction
16:03:36 <Zakim> -kai
16:04:07 <antoine> rrsagent, please draft minutes
16:04:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-minutes.html antoine
16:04:50 <TomB> [adjourned]
16:06:55 <Zakim> -TomB
16:06:57 <Zakim> -antoine
16:06:57 <Zakim> INC_LLDXG()10:00AM has ended
16:06:59 <Zakim> Attendees were antoine, jeff_, kai, michaelp, TomB, kefo, Asaf_, pmurray, markva, edsu, digikim, rayd, [IPcaller], Felix, danbri
16:07:09 <TomB> zakim, bye
16:07:09 <Zakim> Zakim has left #lld
16:07:13 <TomB> rrsagent, bye
16:07:13 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-actions.rdf :
16:07:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Citation cluster group to place Google Docs document into XG Wiki [1]
16:07:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-irc#T15-53-56
16:07:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Remove PAUL WALK'S TOOL AND ANALYSIS from Agenda [2]
16:07:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-irc#T15-55-13
16:07:13 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Antoine to add "LOD curriculum" into "recommendations" section of Outline, and benefits into an Introduction [3]
16:07:13 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/12/02-lld-irc#T16-03-35