13:56:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #poiwg
13:56:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/01-poiwg-irc
13:56:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:56:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #poiwg
13:56:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be UW_POI
13:56:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see UW_POI(POIWG)9:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:56:59 <trackbot> Meeting: Points of Interest Working Group Teleconference
13:56:59 <trackbot> Date: 01 December 2010
13:57:53 <Zakim> UW_POI(POIWG)9:00AM has now started
13:58:01 <Zakim> + +39.011.228.aaaa
13:58:20 <Luca> Zakim mute me
13:58:22 <ajbraun> Teleconference Agenda
13:58:25 <ajbraun> 1.	Meeting Start  a.	Roll call b.	Selection of scribe c.	Any objections/corrections to previous meeting minutes 2.	Chair’s comments – Andy Braun a.	Proposal for face to face b.	Call for proposals for the face to face 3.	Issue and Action review 4.	Format Discussion 5.	Announcements 6.	AOB 
13:58:33 <Ronald> Ronald has joined #poiwg
13:58:41 <matt> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-poiwg/2010Nov/0022
13:58:52 <Luca> Zakim, aaaa is me
13:58:52 <Zakim> +Luca; got it
13:59:05 <Luca> Zakim, mute me
13:59:05 <Zakim> sorry, Luca, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
13:59:19 <matt> zakim, dial matt-voip
13:59:19 <Zakim> ok, matt; the call is being made
13:59:20 <Zakim> +Matt
13:59:23 <marengo> marengo has joined #poiwg
14:00:08 <ajbraun> Jens De Smit and Raj Singh have indicated they cannot attend
14:00:17 <matt> zakim, mute me
14:00:17 <Zakim> Matt should now be muted
14:00:27 <matt> Regrets: Raj Singh, Jens De Smit
14:00:36 <Luca> Zakim, mute me
14:00:36 <Zakim> Luca should now be muted
14:00:59 <Luca> present + Luca_Lamorte
14:00:59 <Zakim> +??P13
14:01:07 <Zakim> +k
14:01:08 <matt> zakim, unmute me
14:01:08 <Zakim> Matt should no longer be muted
14:01:10 <Ronald> Zakim, +??P13 is me
14:01:10 <Zakim> sorry, Ronald, I do not recognize a party named '+??P13'
14:01:28 <Luca> present+ Luca_Lamorte
14:01:29 <matt> zakim, k is Karl
14:01:29 <Zakim> +Karl; got it
14:01:46 <matt> zakim, ??P13 is Ronald
14:01:46 <Zakim> +Ronald; got it
14:01:48 <Zakim> +Andy
14:01:56 <cperey> cperey has joined #poiwg
14:02:29 <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot.html zakim bot instructions
14:02:39 <Zakim> +cperey
14:02:50 <matt> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luca (muted), Matt, Ronald, Karl, Andy, cperey
14:02:51 <cperey> hi
14:03:03 <alex_> alex_ has joined #poiwg
14:03:34 <cperey> I'll do it
14:03:44 <matt> Scribe: cperey 
14:03:44 <cperey> I'll do my best!
14:03:47 <karl_> karl_ has joined #poiwg
14:03:48 <cperey> sure!
14:04:19 <cperey> cperey reminds everyone to say their name when they begin to speak
14:04:20 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:04:34 <matt> zakim, Ipcaller is Alex
14:04:34 <Zakim> +Alex; got it
14:05:45 <matt> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:05:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luca (muted), Matt, Ronald, Karl, Andy, cperey, Alex
14:05:55 <matt> Present: Luca, Matt, Ronald, Karl, Andy, Christine, Alex
14:05:59 <cperey> AJBraun: taking roll, is that everybody?
14:06:04 <cperey> ...no response
14:06:15 <cperey> Matt will send out last meetings minutes today
14:06:33 <cperey> AJBraun: proposal for activities at the face to face meeting in Atlanta
14:06:44 <cperey> ... this is a good time to review the specs
14:06:54 <matt> i/AJBraun/Topic: Roll call/Scribe/Objections/
14:06:58 <matt> i/... this/Topic: Proposals for F2F/
14:07:01 <cperey> ... volunteers to present specs which they are familar with 
14:07:04 <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:07:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/01-poiwg-minutes.html matt
14:07:15 <matt> rrsagent, make logs public
14:07:26 <cperey> AJBraun: Raj has made recommendations
14:07:37 <cperey> ... are there specifications which people have in mind?
14:07:50 <cperey> ... present about these at the face to face
14:08:09 <cperey> Karl: couple of internal specs between Navteq and Nokia which I will speak to
14:08:28 <cperey> Alex: you mean, Karma stuff?
14:08:34 <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Related_Specifications Current list of related specs
14:08:39 <cperey> ... I can speak about that, but want to have an overview
14:08:41 <matt> zakim, who is making noise?
14:08:52 <Zakim> matt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Karl (41%), Andy (18%)
14:08:59 <cperey> Karl: where did we get to on teh spec list? there are a lot of specs...did the group come up with a short list
14:09:09 <cperey> ...more closely aligned with scope of the WG?
14:09:15 <cperey> Matt: see the URL above
14:09:24 <cperey> ... not all things we want to do but things that are related
14:09:31 <cperey> ... pull a couple from there
14:09:40 <cperey> Karl: try to do prior to the face to face is winnow
14:09:51 <cperey> ... to reduce the number to review on face-to-face
14:09:58 <cperey> Andy: good action for next week
14:10:08 <cperey> Matt? Can you do the action stuff?
14:10:21 <matt> [[Do we think that list is a sufficient starting point?  I notice KARML and ARML aren't on there]]
14:10:45 <cperey> Karl: there were group members who were pretty savy with respect to public specs. Can we volunteeer them in abstentia
14:10:55 <cperey> Andy: In the poll, there was a list
14:11:18 <cperey> OGC
14:11:24 <cperey> +q
14:11:33 <matt> ack next
14:12:00 <matt> cperey: I think a lot of the specs that were talking about were OGC specs.  This week and through next they are at their Tech Plenary.  I think they're all tied up.
14:12:21 <matt> cperey: There were a lot of specs mentioned in the landscape figure that were OGC specs.
14:12:57 <cperey> Matt: maybe one of the first steps (OGC specs) is to identify what we are missing
14:13:05 <cperey> ... at least KARMEL , ARML
14:13:13 <cperey> ... maybe we should check the list over
14:13:21 <cperey> Alex: I will add a link to KARMEL stuff
14:13:27 <cperey> ... related specifications
14:13:41 <cperey> Matt:  can anyone thing of any others?
14:13:56 <cperey> ... compare to the use cases and decide if appropriate
14:14:04 <cperey> Karl: where is the related specs page?
14:14:08 <cperey> Matt: in the IRC again
14:14:31 <cperey> Alex: is there an action for someone?
14:14:41 <cperey> Andy: to review who has mentioned in the mailing list
14:14:53 <cperey> and to ping those who posted and see if they want to present
14:15:08 <cperey> ... dole out who will present what in the next conf call
14:15:20 <karl_> +q
14:15:30 <cperey> any objections?
14:15:30 <cperey> no objections
14:15:58 <cperey> Karl: where did we get to on the definitions?
14:16:07 <matt> ACTION: ajbraun to review specs mentioned on the list and to ping those who posted and see if they want to present on the next conference call
14:16:07 <trackbot> Created ACTION-16 - Review specs mentioned on the list and to ping those who posted and see if they want to present on the next conference call [on Andrew Braun - due 2010-12-08].
14:16:10 <cperey> ... is that closed? do we need to do something at the face-to-face
14:16:18 <cperey> +q
14:16:25 <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Terminology terminology page
14:16:32 <cperey> Andy: we did not close on the definitions
14:16:54 <matt> ack next
14:16:54 <cperey> ... we didn't want to get into the spot where we were haggling down to the last detail and miss moving forward
14:16:56 <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/17-poiwg-minutes.html previous meeting minutes
14:17:02 <cperey> ... felt the same way about use cases
14:17:07 <matt> ack next
14:18:06 <matt> cperey: My impression was that there are also people not attending the f2f who want input.  Will there be a way for those who aren't present to have input on the definitions and use cases at the f2f?
14:18:21 <matt> cperey: I've noticed over the last three weeks that participation has gone down.
14:18:35 <matt> alex_: We can make provisions for phone lines and internet access.
14:18:41 <cperey> Alex: make provisions for phone line and Internet access during the F2F from a facilities stand point
14:18:48 <cperey> Matt: we will be on IRC
14:18:54 <cperey> if they want to follow remotely
14:19:25 <cperey> Alex: we do a bit of live broadcasting of event
14:19:25 <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/45386/POI-F2F-2010-1/results f2f registration
14:19:34 <cperey> ...dont' think we can do a private broadcast
14:19:41 <cperey> ...but something to consider
14:20:11 <cperey> Andy: by nature of the face-to-face being member-only simulcast probably doesnt work
14:20:27 <cperey> Alex: this is the purpose of the F2F, to motivate peopel to be there
14:20:37 <cperey> Andy: that being said, the next item on agenda
14:21:14 <cperey> Andy: are there other topics people want to have discussed>
14:21:31 <cperey> Matt: I'd like to see people begin outlining the document, skeleton TOC
14:21:40 <cperey> ... developing how it will be fleshed out
14:21:48 <alex_> +1 for starting a document
14:21:52 <cperey> Karl: another topic would be format that we want to support
14:22:05 <cperey> matt: you mean like... sort of format?
14:22:07 <Ronald> +1 for outlining/skeleton
14:22:10 <cperey> XML, SOAP
14:22:17 <cperey> ad naseum
14:22:25 <matt> s/like.../like external/
14:22:27 <cperey> this is Karl?
14:22:51 <cperey> Karl: examples, tie back to the doc, limit ourselves to perscriptive set of formats
14:22:59 <cperey> ... that will help, I think
14:23:04 <cperey> Andy: sounds like a good topic
14:23:24 <cperey> Matt: still don't have anyone to be the editor. if people are interested in such a position, contact Andy off line
14:23:32 <cperey> Alex: can you elaborate on that role?
14:23:50 <cperey> Matt: each group works differently, depending on composition of the group, there's usually an editor
14:24:05 <cperey> ...whose obtains consensus, puts into prose, who edits 
14:24:17 <cperey> ... responsible it all hangs together, reads well
14:24:17 <alex_> thanks
14:24:29 <karl_> any one on the team done the editor job before?
14:24:46 <cperey> Andy: any other proposals for the F2F?
14:25:05 <cperey> ...next teleconf bring it up, or on the maiing list is also appropriate
14:25:26 <cperey> ... going back to Matt's proposal to start the doc, did your proposal cover all the docs or just the spec?
14:25:46 <cperey> Matt: we really haven't talked about the notes, don't want to perscribe how we should do this
14:26:07 <cperey> Andy: so, that's a good point. We have as part of group charter, the AR note document which will  be used for landscape of AR
14:26:21 <cperey> possible create a charter for a following on working group
14:26:33 <cperey> ... but probably most important to get the POI Spec going first
14:26:41 <cperey> ... editing the AR Notes is also open
14:26:54 <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/charter/#deliverables Charter deliverables
14:26:57 <cperey> I apologize for being very litteral in my note taking!
14:27:12 <cperey> Matt: set aside afternoon of last day on [what?]
14:27:29 <cperey> Andy: that wraps up Call for Proposals for F2F
14:27:34 <cperey> Next Agenda Item: 
14:27:38 <alex_> last day AR notes
14:27:41 <cperey> Review of Actions and Issues
14:27:48 <matt> s/on [what?]/to talk about the AR notes, since we won't have Raj in the afternoon./
14:28:07 <matt> i/Review of Actions/Topic: Review of Actions/
14:28:08 <cperey> One raised issue
14:28:15 <cperey> and 3 open Actions
14:28:26 <cperey> #7 (Matt)  follow up on Korean contact
14:28:35 <cperey> closed. They are invited experts
14:29:13 <cperey> Action item to collect triples on the mailing list. Some discussion at last meeting but we came to the conclusion that he had started that on the mailing list
14:29:13 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - item
14:29:16 <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Data_Model#Basic_structures Triples entry on wiki
14:29:17 <cperey> the action is likely closed
14:29:42 <cperey> Andy: leaves one action which is on AJBraun which is to review the use cases
14:29:48 <cperey> ...will have that for next call
14:30:05 <cperey> Matt: one thing we need to add to future teleconf agenda is to have Jacques speak about triples
14:30:15 <cperey> Andy: so let's get that on next week's agenda
14:30:29 <cperey> Andy to contact Jacques to make sure he is attending
14:30:42 <cperey> Matt: why do we have few people on this call? like DanBri
14:30:58 <cperey> Alex: where do I find the Open Action Items? is there a link off the wiki
14:31:03 <cperey> Matt: it's off the home page
14:31:04 <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/track/ Tracker
14:31:32 <cperey> Andy: not sure why the attendance is lower
14:31:44 <danbri> oh, hi folks, scheduling screwup on my part, sorry :( 
14:31:54 <cperey> there he is!
14:31:57 <cperey> Hi Dan
14:31:59 <danbri> i'll have to follow in irc, back in a little while will try to join
14:32:05 <cperey> Next Agenda Item: Format Discussion
14:32:15 <matt> i/Next Agenda/Topic: Format Discussion/
14:32:21 <cperey> General topic because activity is also low on the mailing list
14:32:34 <cperey> Andy: thing vs. point on the mailng list but not a lot else
14:32:55 <cperey> ... where should we go with this action item? Anyone have anything that they want to say?
14:33:06 <cperey> Alex: when you say Format you mean?
14:33:17 <cperey> Andy: intentionally vague
14:33:24 <cperey> ...anything you want to discuss
14:33:47 <cperey> Karl: a little confused here. Do you mean formats representation?
14:33:58 <cperey> At the bottom of specs page there is a in XML and RDF
14:34:11 <cperey> these are the kinds of formats that we want to depict the data model in
14:34:21 <cperey> of a POI and an Anchor and any other constructs
14:34:31 <cperey> Karl: the data model itself, someone has done some work here...
14:34:40 <cperey> to propose
14:34:48 <cperey> ...when do we add the meat to the model>>
14:34:54 <cperey> ... how do you want to go about this?
14:35:11 <cperey> Matt: in the past we said, discuss any changes you want to make on the maling list and get consensus
14:35:16 <cperey> Andy: I agree with you Matt
14:35:34 <cperey> Andy: I was thinking more the data model, than the JSON, vs XML, etc
14:35:39 <cperey> ... agree with you Karl
14:35:45 <cperey> ...I was thinking more data model
14:35:52 <cperey> ... we have skeleton on there
14:36:05 <cperey> Karl: want to talk about it here? or go at it in e-mail?
14:36:18 <cperey> Andy: open to suggestions, my thinking is that it is better go at it in e-mail
14:36:38 <cperey> ...if we don't have the thread already, a 10 min discussion where peopel are not prepared is not likely to be productive
14:36:40 <cperey> +1
14:37:04 <cperey> Matt: purpose of the call is to debate what is happening on the lsit
14:37:05 <cperey> list
14:37:18 <cperey> Karl: a pretty much like the one to rate
14:37:23 <cperey> the address seems funny
14:37:25 <matt> -> http://www.w3.org/2010/POI/wiki/Data_Model#Data_model_for_a_POI 1-8 list of a POI
14:37:31 <cperey> ... it is an aspect of an anchor
14:37:31 <matt> s/one to rate/one to eight/
14:37:45 <cperey> ...if the anchor describes where, an address is just where the POI is located
14:37:56 <cperey> one or more addresses
14:38:12 <cperey> ...as a cluster represent a lcoation, which in this group's terminology is an anchor
14:38:20 <cperey> ...follow up in an e-mail to the list
14:38:25 <cperey> ...maybe someone else knows
14:38:36 <cperey> ...there's a lot of things that peole want to describe about POI
14:38:40 <cperey> ... varies greatly
14:38:55 <cperey> ...we need the open door, the pointer to the extensible list of value pairs
14:39:07 <cperey> ...where is the ?? point in our data model?
14:39:13 <cperey> ...is that #6? 
14:39:16 <cperey> probably not
14:39:40 <cperey> Alex: is it possible that our format is extensible, like XML, in the sense that if peole want to add more attributes they can>
14:39:44 <Ronald> +1 on extensibility as a requirement
14:39:54 <cperey> Karl: but can we be prescriptive in HOW to extend?
14:40:05 <cperey> ...is there a way to describe the open ended?
14:40:12 <cperey> ...if we say we want AB pairs
14:40:26 <cperey> ... you can define your own attributes but you have to do it in these forms
14:40:35 <cperey> Matt: extensibility (what???)
14:40:45 <cperey> Alex: someone please remind me what is MBR
14:40:59 <cperey> ...an extend described by a vector set or an MBR
14:41:10 <cperey> Matt: minimum bounding rectangle
14:41:12 <cperey> MBR
14:41:36 <cperey> Matt: you will notice that the only one to have extended, a little confusing on the wiki
14:41:56 <cperey> ...maybe not applicable to just this one, applicable to all the other as well
14:42:02 <cperey> Andy: sounds like a good action
14:42:10 <cperey> Hey guys!! I'm loosing battery again
14:42:12 <matt> s/extensibility (what???)/RDF provides for decentralized extensibility and is a feature we should be looking at when we compare it to other formats/
14:42:18 <cperey> I am going to drop off soon!
14:42:32 <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:42:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/01-poiwg-minutes.html matt
14:42:34 <cperey> Alex/Karl: there's a lot of ambiguity in anchors
14:42:40 <cperey> don't want to leave that out
14:42:52 <matt> s|Alex/||
14:42:57 <cperey> if my location could be the entrance, or the center of a postal region, we don't know exactly where it is
14:43:16 <matt> +1 to making sure our data model can cover real world examples
14:43:18 <cperey> ...we need to flesh that out with a range of samples which are real world driven and make sure that our data model can cover it
14:43:28 <cperey> Karl: I would love to take that as an action
14:43:33 <cperey> Andy: for when? 
14:43:44 <cperey> Alex: where do we propose to put these samples in the wiki?
14:43:58 <cperey> ...might be a good action item to flesh out how it is going to be filled in at the least
14:44:06 <cperey> ... to get the ball rolling
14:44:14 <cperey> Andy: do you have a proposal on that?
14:44:29 <cperey> Alex: just saying that if there will be samples, how to get them in the wiki, in a format that makes sense
14:44:38 <cperey> ...could get big and unwieldy
14:44:51 <cperey> ..put some examples and that encourages peole to add others
14:45:07 <cperey> Alex: fewest levels of indirection so my inclination is to put it all in one place
14:45:12 <cperey> Andy: please clarify
14:45:30 <cperey> Alex: my inclination is to have as few levels of indirections as possible
14:45:39 <cperey> put samples right in the flow of the data model
14:45:53 <cperey> Karl: that's the way I like to read it at least
14:46:04 <cperey> it does risk getting too large
14:46:06 <cperey> sorry
14:46:16 <matt> s/Karl:/Andy:/
14:46:17 <cperey> ALex: at this point risk of not having enough
14:46:43 <cperey> Karl: yeah, I like that especially in case of anchors and location
14:46:49 <cperey> don't need a fully sculpted model
14:47:02 <cperey> just examples that give an idea
14:47:12 <cperey> I'm signing off Matt!
14:47:14 <matt> scribe: Matt
14:47:18 <cperey> TTL
14:47:35 <Zakim> -cperey
14:47:40 <matt> ACTION: Karl to add samples to flesh out the Anchor definition in the data model
14:47:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-17 - Add samples to flesh out the Anchor definition in the data model [on Karl Seiler - due 2010-12-08].
14:48:18 <matt> ajbraun: It's on the rest of us to follow Karl's example and add additional info.  I think the rest of the data model should be spelled out as the anchor definition is.
14:49:00 <karl_> good idea
14:49:26 <matt> ACTION: Alex to flesh out the 'extent' section of the data model
14:49:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-18 - Flesh out the 'extent' section of the data model [on Alex Hill - due 2010-12-08].
14:49:46 <matt> ACTION: matt to break out the datamodel with TBD sections in the wiki
14:49:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-19 - Break out the datamodel with TBD sections in the wiki [on Matt Womer - due 2010-12-08].
14:50:24 <Zakim> +??P4
14:50:37 <danbri> zakim, ??P4 is danbri
14:50:37 <Zakim> +danbri; got it
14:50:42 <matt> Present+ danbri
14:50:57 <matt> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:50:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luca (muted), Matt, Ronald, Karl, Andy, Alex, danbri
14:51:21 <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:51:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/01-poiwg-minutes.html matt
14:52:54 <matt> matt: I think we've made some good progress toward our F2F agenda.  We've got work on the data model, comparing our related specs to our use cases, and asking for folks to consider volunteer editing.
14:52:56 <matt> Topic: Other announcements
14:53:19 <matt> ajbraun: I imagine cperey would be announcing that she's having the AR standards meeting during the week of MWC in February.
14:53:25 <matt> ajbraun: Any other announcements?
14:53:32 <matt> ajbraun: OK, we'll meet next week at the same time then.
14:53:49 <matt> ajbraun: Next week we'll talk about the data model and data formats.
14:53:58 <Luca> Zakim, unmute me
14:53:58 <Zakim> Luca should no longer be muted
14:54:01 <Zakim> -Karl
14:54:03 <Zakim> -danbri
14:54:07 <Zakim> -Matt
14:54:08 <Zakim> -Alex
14:54:11 <matt> rrsagent, draft minutes
14:54:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/01-poiwg-minutes.html matt
14:54:11 <Zakim> -Luca
14:54:18 <Zakim> -Ronald
14:54:20 <Zakim> -Andy
14:54:20 <Zakim> UW_POI(POIWG)9:00AM has ended
14:54:21 <Luca> Luca has left #poiwg
14:54:22 <Zakim> Attendees were +39.011.228.aaaa, Luca, Matt, Karl, Ronald, Andy, cperey, Alex, danbri
14:54:33 <alex_> alex_ has left #poiwg
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