IRC log of CSS on 2010-12-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:57:46 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #CSS
16:57:46 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/12/01-CSS-irc
16:57:53 [plinss_]: zakim, this will be style
16:57:53 [Zakim]: ok, plinss_; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
16:58:01 [plinss_]: rrsagent, make logs public
16:58:26 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:58:33 [Zakim]: +plinss_
17:00:02 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:00:51 [dbaron]: dbaron has joined #css
17:00:57 [Zakim]: +Tal
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17:01:01 [Zakim]: +??P3
17:01:19 [Zakim]: +David_Baron
17:01:37 [kojiishi]: zakim, ??p3 is me
17:01:39 [Zakim]: +kojiishi; got it
17:01:44 [Zakim]: +bradk
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17:02:21 [JohnJan]: zakim, microsoft is johnjan
17:02:21 [Zakim]: +johnjan; got it
17:02:44 [Zakim]: +smfr
17:03:12 [Zakim]: +fantasai
17:03:41 [Zakim]: +Bert
17:04:56 [Zakim]: +ChrisL
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17:06:15 [JohnJan]: zakim, johnjan has arronei
17:06:15 [Zakim]: +arronei; got it
17:06:19 [Bert]: Scribe: Bert
17:06:27 [Bert]: ScribeNick: Bert
17:06:33 [Bert]: Topic: Agenda
17:06:42 [Bert]: PL: Anything to add?
17:06:52 [Bert]: Topic: CSS 2.1 LC
17:07:26 [Bert]: PL: We are past deadline for LC for CSS 2.1. But are there changes still expected?
17:07:27 [Zakim]: +??P30
17:07:37 [Zakim]: +TabAtkins
17:07:39 [Bert]: CL: I think we can publish. No major changes.
17:07:51 [ChrisL]: We are better to publish now and dealwith any changes as lc comments
17:08:27 [Bert]: RESOLVED: publish CSS 2.1 as last call
17:08:43 [Zakim]: +SteveZ
17:08:56 [Bert]: PL: Are all edits in the text?
17:08:59 [Bert]: BB: yes.
17:09:28 [Bert]: i/RESOLVED/AE: ditto./
17:09:48 [Bert]: Topic: Tests
17:10:04 [Bert]: Tab: How do we note the failures?
17:10:22 [Bert]: DB: I didn't comment on some tests, because I think the tets is correct.
17:10:29 [fantasai]: s/tets/test/
17:10:40 [Bert]: PL: Other implementers?
17:10:49 [Bert]: CL: I did some of the Prince tests.
17:10:57 [dbaron]: That said, I think it's a lot easier to prove a test incorrect than to prove a test correct.
17:11:05 [Bert]: ... But some problems with building the suite.
17:11:15 [Bert]: ... Worked with some old tests.
17:11:21 [Bert]: ... So need to check against new ones.
17:11:29 [dbaron]: (and the "some tests" I mentioned are those that are tests for features Gecko implements)
17:12:03 [plinss_]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027.zip
17:12:04 [Bert]: PL: RC3 is in harness. SVN head version largely the same.
17:12:17 [Bert]: JJ: Yes, same as 1027
17:13:13 [Bert]: PL: What is in RC3 is largely not changed.
17:13:28 [Bert]: ... What shows up on blocking page is not yet marked in database.
17:13:37 [Bert]: ... What is on wikie *has* been marked.
17:13:57 [Bert]: JJ: Do we have updated timeline?
17:14:05 [Ms2ger]: s/wikie/wiki/
17:14:35 [Bert]: EE: Waiting for some replies from Arron. And a number of comments on MS tests not yet addressed.
17:15:18 [Bert]: AE: Probably just lost in the hundreds of pages... I'm going throught hundreds of e-mails, but so far I have zero edits to make.
17:15:41 [Bert]: ... Will reply to you as soon as I checked all e-mail. They are not all tagged corectly.
17:15:49 [Bert]: ... Will try this week.
17:15:59 [Bert]: EE: Any that you didn't change?
17:16:14 [Bert]: AE: I've changed all, as far as I know.
17:16:36 [Bert]: PL: Everything that is marked as invalid in harness has been chnaged imn RC4?
17:16:47 [Bert]: EE: Do you have a link?
17:16:57 [Bert]: s/imn/in/
17:17:12 [plinss_]: http://test.csswg.org/harness/results?s=CSS21_%HTML_RC3&t=0&f[]=1&f[]=2&f[]=4&f[]=16
17:17:53 [Zakim]: +howcome
17:18:04 [Bert]: JJ: We can move forward without waiting for Arron's mail, I hope?
17:18:11 [Bert]: EE: Let me verify.
17:18:28 [Bert]: JJ: Just wanting to streamline the process.
17:18:34 [howcome]: howcome has joined #css
17:19:39 [Bert]: EE: OK, don't need to wait for Arron.
17:19:58 [Bert]: ... I'll go through my e-mails.
17:20:17 [Bert]: JJ: Yes, Arron can do this, but just no need to block RC4.
17:21:12 [Bert]: PL: Only run changed tests, no need to run all tests of RC4. Harness can show that.
17:21:51 [Bert]: PL: So we're left with the tests we're blocked on...
17:22:04 [TabAtkins]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/font-family-rule-011.htm
17:22:06 [plinss_]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/font-family-rule-011.htm
17:22:12 [Bert]: TA: Question on one test [see URL]
17:22:28 [Bert]: ... Unquoted "default" keyword.
17:22:39 [Bert]: ... Is that a keyword in CSS 2?
17:22:45 [oyvind]: it's reserved
17:22:47 [Bert]: DB: I think it is reserved.
17:23:01 [Bert]: ... In the para "If quoting is omitted..."
17:23:21 [ChrisL]: reserved for future expansion
17:23:29 [Bert]: TA: OK, that's is confusing. We were looking at the syntax.
17:23:53 [Bert]: ... It will mean either 'initial' or 'inherit', won't it?
17:23:56 [dbaron]: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#font-family-prop says:
17:24:01 [dbaron]: The keywords 'initial' and 'default' are reserved for future use and must also be quoted when used as font names. UAs must not consider these keywords as matching the '<family-name>' type.
17:24:04 [Bert]: DB: That is the idea, but not sure we'll actually do it.
17:24:34 [Bert]: TA: I think I have all the fonts, but I stil don't get all columns numbered.
17:24:49 [Bert]: CL: That is wrong, then.
17:25:04 [Bert]: TA: But should we test whether the font works, or whether it bolds?
17:25:33 [Bert]: AE: Mail John with the issue.
17:25:44 [Bert]: DB: I get all numbers on Chrome.
17:26:00 [Bert]: TA: I get some only, this is on Windows.
17:26:34 [Bert]: PL: font-family-rule-11 passes in IE and Chrome.
17:26:48 [Bert]: ... According to your report.
17:26:54 [Bert]: TA: Let me check...
17:27:11 [Bert]: ... No, it doesn't. I must have hit the wrong button.
17:27:16 [dbaron]: s/DB: I get all numbers on Chrome/DB: I get all numbers in Chrome on Linux/
17:27:36 [Bert]: PL: Then I will update the DB accordingly.
17:28:43 [Bert]: HL: I talked to Prince. Maybe they can help with run-in, but I have no results yet.
17:28:58 [Bert]: PL: We have one pass on most of those.
17:29:22 [Bert]: JJ: IE passes about ten of them.
17:29:33 [Bert]: TA: I have one more issue:
17:29:33 [TabAtkins]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/run-in-breaking-002.htm
17:29:56 [Bert]: ... We have the wrong borders. Is that significant?
17:30:40 [Bert]: DB: The test asserts line breaking and borders must be correct.
17:31:12 [Bert]: SF: Webkit fails, it seems.
17:31:21 [Bert]: BK: Looks right in my webkit...
17:31:49 [Bert]: TA: Is there a similar tests without run-in?
17:32:03 [Bert]: DB: I'm not sure the border assertion is actually correct.
17:32:26 [Bert]: ... It is a ltr run-in and a rtl block. I'll have to check that.
17:32:48 [bradk]: I take it back. The missing borders are on the opposite sides of what the text says
17:33:16 [Bert]: JJ: Chrome breaking looks correct.
17:33:28 [Bert]: TA: Not sure. Should it be on the other side?
17:33:51 [Bert]: BK: Maybe the spec is wrong then.
17:34:41 [Bert]: TA: We still not pass background intrinsic, but I'll need to study that more carefully first.
17:35:17 [Bert]: BK: Contradiction? Test says there should be no border there.
17:35:44 [Bert]: DB: I don't think the test is ambiguous. But it may be incorrect.
17:36:19 [Bert]: TA: But it says there *should* be baroder between "header" and "Start".
17:36:24 [Bert]: DB: Ah yes.
17:36:35 [Bert]: s/baroder/border/
17:37:21 [Bert]: PL: Are we agreeing on the spec?
17:37:39 [Bert]: DB: I think Chrome is correct. The test assertion needs to be corrected.
17:38:05 [Bert]: JJ: IE has a catastrophic break, but if we ignore that, it matches chrome.
17:38:25 [Bert]: PL: Does somebody ping Boris about the test?
17:38:33 [Bert]: DB: Yes, I will.
17:39:04 [Bert]: PL: Any other tests we can review?
17:39:24 [Bert]: DB: Says the test dates from before our decision on inheritance.
17:39:44 [Bert]: TA: But inheritance is always the document tree. Anything else would be insane.
17:40:01 [Bert]: EE; There are sometimes anonymous boxes, that don't exist in the doc tree.
17:40:08 [Bert]: s/EE;/EE:/
17:40:28 [Bert]: DB: Boris agrees the text about vertical borers in the test is backwards.
17:40:38 [Bert]: s/borers/borders/
17:41:03 [dbaron]: bz says he can fix the test in svn
17:41:15 [Bert]: PL: Can we look at the margin collapse tests?
17:41:55 [dbaron]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/bidi-breaking-002.htm
17:42:11 [Bert]: EE: We had resolved that line separator behavior is undefined.
17:42:38 [Bert]: EE: One test fails, but it is a "may."
17:43:13 [Bert]: DB: A bunch of tests without passes. Not sure we can discuss them.
17:43:19 [dbaron]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/abspos-non-replaced-width-margin-000.htm
17:43:22 [dbaron]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/abspos-replaced-width-margin-000.htm
17:43:55 [Bert]: DB: [see URLs]. These are almost exhaustive tests for all combinations. Ref tests.
17:44:20 [Bert]: ... We can probably split them and get more passes. But that probably still not leads to 2 passes for all of them.
17:45:01 [Bert]: PL: I see reports that IE7 passes, but also that it fails...
17:45:06 [gsnedders]: zakim, who's on the phone?
17:45:06 [Zakim]: On the phone I see plinss_, johnjan, Tal, kojiishi, David_Baron, bradk, smfr, fantasai, Bert, ChrisL, ??P30, TabAtkins, SteveZ, howcome
17:45:08 [Zakim]: johnjan has arronei
17:45:11 [smfr]: TabAtkins: not <link rel="alternate" href="http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/source/layout/reftests/abspos-non-replaced-width-offset-margin.html"> ?
17:45:15 [Bert]: TA: Where is the reference? I don't see it linked.
17:45:26 [TabAtkins]: smfr: Well, that file doesn't exist at all.
17:45:46 [gsnedders]: zakim, what's the code?
17:45:46 [Zakim]: the conference code is 78953 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), gsnedders
17:45:51 [plinss_]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/reftest.list
17:45:54 [dbaron]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/abspos-non-replaced-width-margin-000-ref.htm
17:45:55 [Bert]: DB: Add -ref to the URl to find the reference.
17:45:58 [dbaron]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/abspos-replaced-width-margin-000-ref.htm
17:46:29 [Bert]: PL: Working on improvement to harness. But see the manifest [URL above].
17:46:42 [Bert]: ... Some tests have multiple refs.
17:46:51 [Bert]: TA: That doesn't make sense.
17:47:08 [Bert]: PL: There are multiple ways to make the same result.
17:47:35 [Bert]: DB: Reftests test equivalence between features. There may be more than two equivalent features.
17:47:47 [Bert]: PL: Manifest has several lines for same test.
17:48:16 [Bert]: DB: But indeed not marked in metadata in the test. Could be reworked, but haven't done it.
17:48:47 [Bert]: PL: I'm planning to add links in the wrapper in the harness.
17:49:10 [Bert]: ... We'll also have *negative* refs in RC4, what should *not* match.
17:49:33 [Bert]: SF: useful to have sometihing in manifest that says there are mutliple refs.
17:49:38 [Bert]: EE: Like what?
17:49:46 [Bert]: SF: Some keyword I can look for.
17:50:03 [Bert]: EE: The manifest has a fixed format. Can put it in the metadata.
17:50:10 [Bert]: SF: That would probably be OK.
17:50:38 [Bert]: DB: The test we were talking about, I'd like to ask implementers to look at their bugs.
17:50:50 [Bert]: SF: It's a complex test. Splitting it out would indeed help.
17:51:22 [Bert]: DB: Relatively straightforward to edit test and reference. They are aligned line by line.
17:52:01 [Bert]: SF: I'll try to get Hyatt to look at this.
17:52:37 [Bert]: JJ: A propos of IE7: IE7 fails.
17:53:50 [Bert]: DB: We might soon have two additional tests on the zero-passes list, because one fix I made caused two other tests to now fail.
17:54:10 [Bert]: EE: Update to spec in 2007 had not been incorporated in the tests.
17:54:32 [Bert]: PL: That will then give us one pass. Still need a second one...
17:55:00 [Bert]: TA: I'm willing to try...
17:55:24 [Bert]: EE: Hyatt wasn't sure about making the change. Somebody should talk to him.
17:55:46 [fantasai]: He didn't want to change margin collapsing code without adequate test coverage
17:56:02 [fantasai]: which we didn't have when I talked about it with him last
17:56:09 [Bert]: DB: Table background tests: it looks like Opera is very close.
17:56:17 [dbaron]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/table-backgrounds-bs-row-001.htm
17:56:21 [Bert]: ... Some spacing in horizontal direction only.
17:56:24 [dbaron]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/table-backgrounds-bs-rowgroup-001.htm
17:56:33 [Bert]: ... While webkit doesn't pass at all.
17:56:40 [Bert]: ... Can Opera fix that?
17:56:45 [dbaron]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/table-backgrounds-bs-row-001-ref.htm
17:56:45 [Bert]: ... I haven't looked at IE.
17:56:48 [dbaron]: http://test.csswg.org/suites/css2.1/20101027/html4/table-backgrounds-bs-rowgroup-001-ref.htm
17:57:18 [Zakim]: -bradk
17:57:32 [smfr]: sorry, have to run to another mtg
17:57:36 [Bert]: HL: You think it is the same issue in both?
17:57:36 [Zakim]: -smfr
17:57:39 [smfr]: smfr has left #css
17:57:44 [Bert]: DB: That is what it looks like, yes.
17:58:00 [Bert]: HL: I will take a look at that.
17:58:18 [Zakim]: -kojiishi
17:58:38 [Zakim]: +??P3
17:59:14 [Zakim]: -David_Baron
17:59:16 [Zakim]: -SteveZ
17:59:16 [Zakim]: -johnjan
17:59:17 [Zakim]: -TabAtkins
17:59:19 [Zakim]: -ChrisL
17:59:20 [Zakim]: -howcome
17:59:25 [Zakim]: -fantasai
17:59:27 [Bert]: PL: I will work on harness and reftest. It looks like the web spider attack on it is under control.
17:59:28 [Zakim]: -??P3
17:59:29 [Zakim]: -plinss_
17:59:42 [Zakim]: -Bert
18:00:30 [Bert]: zakim, list attendees
18:00:30 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been plinss_, Tal, David_Baron, kojiishi, bradk, smfr, fantasai, Bert, ChrisL, arronei, TabAtkins, SteveZ, howcome
18:00:45 [Bert]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:00:45 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/01-CSS-minutes.html Bert
18:01:03 [Bert]: rrsagent, make logs public
18:01:51 [Bert]: Chair: Peter Linss
18:02:04 [Bert]: Meeting: CSS WG telcon
18:02:41 [Bert]: rrsagent, make minutes
18:02:41 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/12/01-CSS-minutes.html Bert
18:02:59 [Zakim]: -??P30
18:04:29 [Zakim]: -Tal
18:04:31 [Zakim]: Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:04:32 [Zakim]: Attendees were plinss_, Tal, David_Baron, kojiishi, bradk, smfr, fantasai, Bert, ChrisL, arronei, TabAtkins, SteveZ, howcome
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21:38:01 [karl]: Bert: do you know if there are archives on the Web of the winter mailing list? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/1996AprJun/0001
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22:20:40 [smfr]: fantasai: i'm confused by http://test.csswg.org/source/contributors/fantasai/submitted/css2.1/backgrounds/background-intrinsic-004.htm
22:20:51 [smfr]: (which fails in webkit)
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