16:52:43 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
16:52:43 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/30-rdb2rdf-irc
16:52:44 <hhalpin> hhalpin has changed the topic to: Meeting Nov. 30th
16:52:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:52:45 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
16:52:47 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
16:52:47 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
16:52:48 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
16:52:48 <trackbot> Date: 30 November 2010
16:53:03 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Nov/0155.html
16:53:14 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
16:53:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/30-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:53:19 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:53:31 <boris> boris has joined #rdb2rdf
16:59:21 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
17:00:13 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
17:00:33 <boris> I have problem with the passcoe
17:00:34 <boris> code
17:00:45 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
17:00:47 <boris> hi BTW
17:00:52 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:00:57 <boris> yes
17:00:57 <Zakim> +nunolopes
17:01:07 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
17:01:13 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
17:01:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see [IPcaller], nunolopes, mhausenblas
17:01:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see nunolopes, Ashok, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, hhalpin, privera, ivan, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, betehess, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
17:01:24 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
17:01:24 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
17:01:25 <Zakim> +Ivan
17:01:32 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
17:01:34 <mhausenblas> Zakim, IPCaller is privera 
17:01:34 <Zakim> +privera; got it
17:01:38 <boris> I'll try it again
17:01:41 <juansequeda> juansequeda has joined #rdb2rdf
17:01:49 <nunolopes> Zakim, mute me
17:01:49 <Zakim> nunolopes should now be muted
17:02:01 <mhausenblas> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Nov/0155.html
17:02:01 <MacTed> major deadline is hitting me here ... I may not make the call, and will be minimally attentive if I do.  
17:02:01 <MacTed> my review of the Direct Mapping Editor's Draft is *not* complete, in no small part because I find it very hard to work with onscreen, and it fails to print usefully (many elements print off-the-page)
17:02:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:02:31 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
17:02:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see privera, nunolopes (muted), mhausenblas, Ivan, Ashok_Malhotra, [IPcaller]
17:02:33 <Zakim> On IRC I see juansequeda, nunolopes, Ashok, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, hhalpin, privera, ivan, mhausenblas, MacTed, LeeF, betehess, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
17:02:37 <juansequeda> Zakim, IPcaller is me
17:02:37 <Zakim> +juansequeda; got it
17:02:44 <Seema> Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
17:02:45 <mhausenblas> Zakim, pick a victim
17:02:46 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ashok_Malhotra
17:02:53 <mhausenblas> Chair: Ashok 
17:02:55 <mhausenblas> Zakim, pick a victim
17:02:55 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ivan
17:03:09 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
17:03:11 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
17:03:28 <boris> still with the passcode not valid
17:03:29 <boris> weird
17:03:37 <cygri> zakim, i'm with mhausenblas
17:03:37 <Zakim> +cygri; got it
17:03:43 <Zakim> +??P34
17:04:28 <mhausenblas> scribenick: cygri 
17:05:01 <cygri> Topic: Admin
17:05:05 <Zakim> +Seema
17:05:09 <boris> I'm calling again ... sorry
17:05:12 <cygri> PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of last meeting, see http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
17:05:14 <Ashok> + PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of last meeting, see http://www.w3.org/2010/11/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
17:05:20 <juansequeda> +1
17:05:23 <mhausenblas> +1
17:05:36 <ivan> 0 :-)
17:06:12 <cygri> RESOLUTION: Accept the minutes of last meeting, see http://www.w3.org/2010/11/23-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
17:06:14 <mhausenblas> ACTION-79?
17:06:14 <trackbot> ACTION-79 -- Juan Sequeda to compile a list of speaking/panel opportunities for diseminating rdb2rdf work -- due 2010-11-30 -- OPEN
17:06:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/79
17:06:18 <Zakim> +boris
17:07:27 <cygri> Topic: Review of R2RML Test Cases
17:07:42 <Ashok> 2. Review of R2RML Test Cases    (Boris) ACTION-81  http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/R2RML_Test_Cases
17:08:23 <cygri> ashok: we agreed to postpone first test case?
17:08:26 <cygri> boris: yes
17:08:46 <boris> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/R2RML_Test_Cases#R2RMLTC0002
17:09:00 <cygri> ... i'll start with test case R2RMLTC0003
17:09:58 <cygri> ... this is without primary key so URI is generated by concatenating values
17:10:29 <cygri> ashok: are you speaking about default mapping?
17:10:33 <cygri> boris: no
17:10:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:10:45 <hhalpin> Zakim, [IPcaller] is hhalpin
17:10:45 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
17:10:56 <ivan> q+
17:11:00 <cygri> ... syntax of the R2RML mapping is at end of test case
17:11:01 <hhalpin> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:11:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see privera, nunolopes (muted), mhausenblas, Ivan, Ashok_Malhotra, juansequeda, ??P34, Seema, boris, hhalpin
17:11:03 <Zakim> mhausenblas has cygri
17:11:34 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
17:11:34 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
17:11:36 <Zakim> +EricP
17:11:52 <mhausenblas> q?
17:12:48 <ericP> q+ to argue with ivan
17:13:10 <cygri> ivan: i would consider the expected default mapping result as separate entry
17:13:29 <ivan> ack ivan
17:14:11 <cygri> ericP: the default mapping says, for any given schema+rows, here's the graph it entails
17:14:20 <ivan> q+
17:14:25 <ivan> ack ericP 
17:14:25 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to argue with ivan
17:14:26 <cygri> ... how to test that your impl works is up to you
17:14:38 <cygri> ... you can do that test given an rdf graph
17:15:00 <cygri> ivan: it's a question of organizing the tests
17:15:23 <juansequeda> +1 to Ivan
17:15:37 <cygri> ... for each test we have a small db, we have a graph it produces, and optionally we have an r2rml mapping and the graph it produces
17:15:41 <cygri> q+
17:15:48 <Zakim> -boris
17:15:48 <ivan> ack ivan
17:16:02 <boris> I got disconnected
17:16:16 <boris> calling again, sorry
17:16:21 <cygri> ashok: does the syntax look right?
17:16:58 <hhalpin> q+
17:17:13 <ericP> +1
17:17:36 <ericP> (to the notion that some tests will apply to either mapping)
17:17:37 <hhalpin> +1, yes otherwise the test-cases for direct graph are likely to become rather redudant
17:17:38 <hhalpin> q-
17:18:03 <ericP> q+ to note that many tests use the same input db
17:18:10 <hhalpin> q+
17:18:21 <ivan> ack cygri 
17:18:49 <hhalpin> +1 cygri's comment
17:19:48 <ericP> database [ directDB? ( r2rml r2rDB ) * ]
17:19:51 <ivan> q+
17:19:56 <boris> sorry, havin problems again
17:19:57 <cygri> cygri: there might be many test cases where there are multiple customized mappings for the same db
17:20:00 <Souri> In TC3, due to absence of primary key, the subject will be a bNode.
17:20:34 <Souri> q?
17:20:39 <cygri> ... and in that case the direct graph would be same
17:20:56 <cygri> ... so it might be better to have one kind of test cases for direct, and another kind for r2rml
17:21:34 <cygri> ericP: we would get lots of redundancy either way
17:21:40 <cygri> ... what would the reader find easiest
17:21:47 <cygri> ... databases are what we change the least
17:22:19 <cygri> ... propsed structure: have a db, then may or may not have direct mapping, then n pairs of r2rml and custom graph
17:22:22 <Souri> My above comment was in relation to direct mapping (not R2RML mapping).
17:22:31 <ivan> +1 to Ashok
17:22:43 <cygri> ashok: why would we ever not have a direct mapping?
17:22:44 <ivan> q-
17:22:48 <ivan> ack ericP 
17:22:48 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to note that many tests use the same input db
17:22:51 <hhalpin> ack hhalpin
17:22:58 <cygri> ericP: direct mapping might not be interesting for some dbs
17:23:02 <ivan> +1 to to Eric, modulo the '?' mark:-)
17:23:08 <cygri> +1 to Eric
17:23:15 <hhalpin> hmm
17:23:16 <hhalpin> mike not working
17:23:28 <hhalpin> but basically, my point is that a direct graph mapping
17:23:32 <hhalpin> should be the first part of the document
17:23:36 <hhalpin> for each database, like eric said
17:23:41 <hhalpin> and the the second part of the doc should cover
17:23:44 <hhalpin> the features of r2rml.
17:23:50 <hhalpin> Obviously, otherwise implementers
17:23:51 <hhalpin> may be confused
17:24:01 <cygri> +1 to that
17:24:02 <juansequeda> +1
17:24:10 <hhalpin> it seems kinda silly to have multiple test-cases
17:24:15 <hhalpin> that have the same input-output
17:24:23 <hhalpin> that's redundant, and makes the document harder
17:24:57 <cygri> ericP: do we put all the db-direct pairs in the first half of the document?
17:25:09 <hhalpin> It's just an organizational issues - but yes, we could do it by databases as well.
17:25:19 <ivan> +1 to Ashok and Eric
17:25:29 <cygri> +1 to hhalpin
17:25:32 <hhalpin> However, the key is not to have any redundant test-cases, which the current approach would be absolutely full of.
17:26:02 <hhalpin> So I'm happy with Eric's proposal of doing it one database at time, as long as there is no redundant tests.
17:26:03 <cygri> Topic: Implementations (Michael)
17:26:10 <mhausenblas> ACTION-82?
17:26:10 <trackbot> ACTION-82 -- Michael Hausenblas to create Wiki page with implementation status (and plans thereof) -- due 2010-11-30 -- OPEN
17:26:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/82
17:26:16 <mhausenblas> close ACTION-82
17:26:17 <trackbot> ACTION-82 Create Wiki page with implementation status (and plans thereof) closed
17:26:27 <ericP> I note that we still have a dissenting opinion from cygri
17:26:31 <ericP> do we want to resolve that?
17:26:51 <juansequeda> I'm adding myself there
17:26:56 <cygri> mhausenblas: made wiki page
17:26:57 <ericP> (as in give him time to persuade us)
17:27:05 <cygri> ... http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Implementations
17:27:22 <cygri> ... now lists D2RQ, FeDeRate, ODEMapster, Revelytix
17:27:41 <cygri> ashok: Souri, will you add an oracle line?
17:28:05 <cygri> Souri: we can't officially promise, so we'll implement it first and add then
17:28:08 <juansequeda> now we have 5 lines :)
17:28:29 <cygri> mhausenblas: it would be extremely beneficial if we had *something* from oracle
17:28:29 <ivan> +1 to Michael
17:28:42 <cygri> ... "we intend to ..."
17:28:49 <cygri> Souri: will se what we can do
17:29:01 <cygri> Topic: R2RML status
17:29:31 <cygri> Souri: we are waiting for review comments
17:29:41 <cygri> ... interesting comment from ????
17:29:48 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/ editors' draft of r2rml
17:30:04 <cygri> ... about blank nodes
17:30:19 <Seema> comment from Percy on the r2rml spec
17:30:22 <cygri> ... no one can conflict with a blank node in the same graph
17:30:43 <cygri> s/????/Percy/
17:31:13 <privera> I'm a Master Student at Pontifical Catholic University of Rio de Janeiro (PUC-Rio)
17:31:18 <cygri> ... if we have stuff in different graphs, then we can't connect the triples because blank nodes in different graph are always distinct
17:31:25 <cygri> ... we need to point that out in the doc
17:31:52 <cygri> ... my plan for solution: cautionary note
17:31:56 <cygri> +1
17:31:59 <cygri> q+
17:32:13 <ivan> ack cygri 
17:32:58 <hhalpin> +1 strong warning on blank nodes, or RDF supports Marcelo's suggested semantics for blank-nodes in RDF Next to avoid pathological blank node problems.
17:33:19 <cygri> cygri: +1 to that, put a strong warning but if ppl want to use bnodes anyways why stop them
17:33:19 <privera> +1
17:33:52 <cygri> ashok: you start by talking about how r2rml can be used
17:34:09 <boris> thanks to ericP I'm on the phone again
17:34:24 <cygri> ... there are two different uses. you could materialize the graph. or you make it virtual and query with sparql
17:34:48 <ivan> q+
17:34:55 <cygri> ... there are words, but they are not focused
17:35:12 <hhalpin> q+
17:35:37 <hhalpin> q-
17:35:44 <cygri> ashok: i'll propose wording
17:35:49 <hhalpin> +1 just outlining options 
17:36:01 <cygri> ... the document is very dense
17:36:07 <boris> zakim, mute me
17:36:07 <Zakim> sorry, boris, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you
17:36:08 <cygri> ... you want more words
17:36:31 <cygri> ... always add one or two sentences: this bit of sql here does the following
17:36:40 <Souri> q+
17:36:57 <mhausenblas> q?
17:37:06 <mhausenblas> ack ivan 
17:37:20 <cygri> ivan: we need some text somewhere that explains the relationship between r2rml and direct mappign
17:37:38 <cygri> ... i made a presentation, it went well, but there's a need for explanation here
17:37:55 <cygri> ... titles are very different from another etc. we have to make a link between them
17:38:06 <cygri> ashok: have a small paragraph in both of them
17:38:30 <cygri> ivan: have a separate W3C note that explains it. can be a one-pager
17:38:53 <cygri> ... we did that in RIF and OWL (where we had six or seven docs)
17:38:58 <cygri> ... that might be one way to do it
17:39:08 <cygri> ashok: my instinct is to add one paragraph in each doc
17:39:11 <hhalpin> +1 one paragraph i each document rather than yet another note
17:39:15 <hhalpin> minimize the number of documents
17:39:20 <cygri> +1 to ivan and hhalpin
17:39:26 <Ashok> q?
17:39:37 <cygri> Souri: want to talk about adding schema triples
17:39:40 <cygri> q+
17:40:05 <juansequeda> +q
17:40:08 <cygri> ... should we always generate these triples? or make it an option that you can skip?
17:40:13 <ivan> ack Souri 
17:40:15 <ivan> ack cygri 
17:40:16 <Souri> q-
17:40:23 <hhalpin> q+
17:41:53 <ivan> ack juansequeda 
17:42:03 <cygri> cygri: typically the schema triples would be defined in existing vocabulary documents
17:42:19 <cygri> ... and those might disagree with the r2rml-generated schema triples
17:42:25 <cygri> ... would like to understand the use case better
17:42:47 <cygri> juansequeda: we should generate schema triples for direct mapping but not for r2rml
17:42:53 <Souri> Suppose a query says {?x rdf:type rdfs:Class} and it goes against RDF "generated" from an empty EMP table ... what should be the response: should it be {?x = ".../EMP"}  ?
17:43:11 <cygri> hhalpin: -1 to having optional stuff or gray areas
17:43:57 <hhalpin> ditto with metadata about triples in general
17:44:08 <juansequeda> Marcelo and I have already defined the "direct schema": http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/wiki/Default_Mapping_to_RDFS/OWL
17:44:25 <hhalpin> Have an option that tells you to generate it, and then we flip a coin to decide on the default.
17:44:28 <hhalpin> :)
17:45:46 <ivan> +1 to cygri 
17:46:16 <hhalpin> so maybe the default should be not to have the schema triples by default?
17:46:24 <ericP> +1 to cygri
17:46:31 <juansequeda> +1 to cygri
17:46:37 <boris> +1 to cygri
17:46:45 <juansequeda> hhalpin, I agree. schema triples should be optional
17:46:46 <hhalpin> q+
17:46:59 <privera> +1 to member:cygri
17:47:01 <cygri> Souri: if we have empty table, what triples do we generate?
17:47:15 <cygri> ... do we generate nothing?
17:47:24 <hhalpin> there's the "table triple" issue - there was a diff between Eric and J&M's draft there...
17:48:05 <hhalpin> ack hhalpin
17:48:08 <ivan> ack hhalpin 
17:48:11 <cygri> ... just making sure that we are ok with generating no triples from an empty table
17:48:38 <cygri> hhalpin: might be useful to have explicit option for generating schema triples
17:49:09 <cygri> ... there was something about table/metadata triples
17:49:58 <cygri> ericP: cygri wanted to be able to identify which nodes comes from which database
17:50:10 <juansequeda> table triple: <emp#1> <ex:table> <emp>
17:50:37 <cygri> ... there's several ways of doing this
17:50:50 <cygri> ... triple comes from a table? node comes from a table?
17:50:51 <privera> but in that case we are start talking about provenance
17:50:52 <cygri> q+
17:51:25 <cygri> ... i'm in favour of saying "this predicate comes from this table"
17:51:44 <Ashok> s/database/table/
17:52:57 <juansequeda> +1 to cygri 
17:53:24 <cygri> cygri: i want to be able to ask "what resources come from this table?" in a very simple way
17:53:34 <Souri> Just to confirm: So I am assumig that we are okay with a query {?x rdf:type rdfs:Class}, against RDF triples generated from an empty table (with no rr:class use in R2RML mapping) would return no solutions.
17:53:39 <cygri> ericP: i want to make provenance ppl happy
17:54:12 <cygri> ... and then the sparql query would have two triple patterns instead of one
17:54:30 <cygri> ... this would be a leaner graph
17:55:17 <cygri> ... instead of 10000 arcs saying "protein x comes from table y", you have 10 arcs saying "column y.a comes from table y"
17:55:50 <cygri> Souri, i'm ok with that
17:56:00 <ericP> <tableX> us:producedPredicate <predicateY> .
17:56:04 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:56:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/30-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:56:10 <Souri> "what resources come from this table?" Richard, how (i.e., using what SPARQL graph pattern) would you like to express it?
17:56:19 <cygri> Topic: Direct mapping
17:56:33 <cygri> marcelo: nothing new this week
17:56:34 <ericP> getting nodes from a table: SELECT ?s WHERE { <table> us:producedPredicate ?p . ?s ?p ?o }
17:56:43 <cygri> ashok: thanks all
17:56:57 <cygri> juansequeda: how far into december do we keep meeting?
17:57:11 <ivan> I am on vacations on both dates
17:57:26 <ericP> i intend to be lost in the desert on the 21st
17:57:28 <cygri> ashok: telecons on 21st and 28th?
17:57:42 <mhausenblas> Michael: +1 for 21, but  -1 for 28
17:57:54 <Seema> +1 for 21, no for 28
17:57:57 <cygri> ashok: let's cancel both then
17:58:02 <privera> +1 ->28
17:58:16 <Zakim> -Seema
17:58:17 <Zakim> -hhalpin
17:58:18 <ivan> zakim, drop me
17:58:18 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected
17:58:19 <Zakim> -Ivan
17:58:32 <mhausenblas> [adjourned]
17:58:42 <Zakim> -nunolopes
17:59:16 <cygri> RESOLUTION: telecons for 21st  and 28th is cancelled
17:59:26 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:59:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/30-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
18:00:16 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
18:00:26 <Zakim> -juansequeda
18:01:20 <Zakim> -privera
18:01:37 <Ashok> rrsagent, make logs public
18:07:25 <Ashok> present: privera, nunolopes, mhausenblas, Ivan, Ashok_Malhotra, Eric, Juan, Boris, Harry, Richard
18:07:37 <Ashok> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:07:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/30-rdb2rdf-minutes.html Ashok
18:09:18 <Zakim> -??P34
18:32:32 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
18:32:33 <Zakim> -EricP
18:32:33 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
18:32:35 <Zakim> Attendees were nunolopes, mhausenblas, Ivan, Ashok_Malhotra, privera, juansequeda, cygri, Seema, boris, hhalpin, EricP
18:33:42 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
18:33:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/30-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
18:33:55 <mhausenblas> trackbot, end telecon
18:33:55 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
18:33:55 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
18:33:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:33:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/30-rdb2rdf-minutes.html trackbot
18:33:57 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
18:33:57 <RRSAgent> I see no action items