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15:56:01 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-xproc-irc
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15:56:11 <Norm> zakim, this will be xproc
15:56:11 <Zakim> ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
15:58:19 <Norm> Meeting: XML Processing Model WG
15:58:19 <Norm> Date: 18 November 2010
15:58:19 <Norm> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2010/11/18-agenda
15:58:19 <Norm> Meeting: 184
15:58:19 <Norm> Chair: Norm
15:58:19 <Norm> Scribe: Norm
15:58:22 <Norm> ScribeNick: Norm
15:58:34 <Norm> Regrets: Henry, Mohamed
16:00:39 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has now started
16:00:46 <Zakim> +Norm
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16:02:14 <Zakim> +Jeroen
16:02:22 <Vojtech> zakim, jeroen is Vojtech
16:02:22 <Zakim> +Vojtech; got it
16:02:42 <Norm> Can you hear me? I can't hear you?
16:02:47 <Norm> I can't here you. I meant.
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16:04:11 <Vojtech> I don't hear anything
16:04:18 <Norm> That's weird I heard you say that. I'll dial in again.
16:04:23 <Zakim> -Norm
16:04:40 <Zakim> +??P13
16:04:50 <Zakim> +Norm
16:05:00 <Norm> zakim, ??P13 is alexmilowski
16:05:00 <Zakim> +alexmilowski; got it
16:05:17 <Norm> Alex, can you hear me?
16:05:19 <alexmilowski> I'm on skype without a headset, so we'll see how this goes
16:05:32 <alexmilowski> No.
16:05:38 <alexmilowski> I can hear others.
16:05:41 <Norm> Vojtech, I heard you say "The silence is almost absolute" then you went away
16:05:52 <Norm> Vojtech/Alex can you hear each other?
16:06:12 <Norm> Apparently I can hear Vojtech and Alex
16:07:00 <Norm> Topic: Accept this agenda?
16:07:00 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2010/11/18-agenda
16:07:06 <Norm> Accepted.
16:07:10 <Norm> Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting?
16:07:10 <Norm> -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2010/11/04-05-minutes
16:07:18 <Norm> As amended yesterday.
16:07:22 <Norm> Accepted.
16:07:36 <Norm> Topic: Update on LC draft of processor profiles
16:07:43 <Norm> Henry reports he'll have something for us next week.
16:07:58 <Norm> Topic: Next meeting: telcon, 9 Dec 2010?
16:08:10 <Zakim> +[ArborText]
16:08:58 <Norm> Present: Norm, Alex, Vojtech, Paul
16:09:06 <Norm> Accepted.
16:09:31 <Norm> Topic: Review of p:document-template note
16:10:03 <Norm> Norm: I think the only substantive issue is how to parse curly brace
16:10:10 <Norm> s/brace/braces/
16:11:33 <Norm> Vojtech: XQuery handles curly braces by watching for quotes.
16:11:54 <Norm> ...I think doing it like that would be more consistent for users, but harder for implementors.
16:12:06 <Norm> Norm: Well...
16:12:15 <Norm> Vojtech: On the other hand, maybe it's not really that hard.
16:13:21 <Norm> Norm attempts to summarize:
16:13:53 <Norm> When you see a "{" (not doubled), switch to xpath-mode. When you see a ' or " in xpath-mode, switch to quote-mode. In quote-mode everything is quoted until the closing quote.
16:14:00 <Norm> At the closing quote, go back to xpath-mode.
16:14:10 <Norm> In xpath-mode, a "}" whether it is doubled or not, immediately ends the expression.
16:15:41 <Norm> Some discussion of what happens if you leave a quote out. You'll read the whole content of whatever text node you're looking at.
16:16:11 <Norm> Norm: Are those the rules everyone preferes?
16:16:15 <Norm> s/preferes/prefers/
16:16:25 <Norm> Vojtech: What happens if you use character references for quotes?
16:16:37 <Norm> Norm: No. We'll only see the expanded references.
16:17:48 <Norm> Alex: I like it.
16:18:02 <Norm> Norm: In the common case, you'll be able to write { concat('{', $foo, '}') }
16:18:13 <Norm> ...That probably is easier than doubling all the curly braces
16:18:23 <Norm> Vojtech: What about the rules for doubled braces?
16:18:56 <Norm> Norm: We could say "{" is an error in XPath mode.
16:20:12 <Norm> Vojtech: What happens if XPath 3 introduces "{" in XPath?
16:20:17 <Norm> Alex: We'll have to change the parsing rules.
16:20:58 <Norm> Norm: Given that XSLT and XQuery both use curly braces to bound expressions, it seems unlikely to me that they'll decide to use them for something else in XPath V.x
16:22:26 <Norm> In regular-mode, {{ is a {. In regular-mode, { (undoubled) starts xpath-mode.
16:22:26 <Norm> In xpath-mode, ' or " starts quote-mode. In quote-mode no characters are
16:22:26 <Norm> speciall except the matching quote that returns us to xpath-mode.
16:22:26 <Norm> In xpath-mode { is an error. In xpath-mode } ends the expression and returns
16:22:26 <Norm> to regular-mode (after inserting the result of evaluating the expression).
16:22:57 <Norm> s/speciall/special/
16:23:04 <alexmilowski> yes
16:23:11 <Vojtech> yes
16:23:12 <Norm> Norm: Is that what people like?
16:23:14 <Norm> General agreement.
16:23:32 <Norm> Norm: Any other discussion about document templates or the note?
16:23:40 <Norm> Topic: GRDDL step?
16:24:33 <Norm> Alex: I was looking at GRDDL and think it's something we should do as a standard step, but I haven't looked into it yet.
16:25:05 <Norm> Vojtech: I looked at the spec and from what I read, it seemed to me that parts of it we could do already.
16:25:34 <alexmilowski> e.g.
16:25:35 <alexmilowski> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
16:25:36 <alexmilowski>       xmlns:grddl='http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view#'
16:25:36 <alexmilowski>       grddl:transformation="glean_title.xsl
16:25:36 <alexmilowski> 			http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/td/getAuthor.xsl"
16:25:36 <alexmilowski>  >
16:25:39 <Norm> ...It just checks for attributes and fetches a stylesheet. It looks like something that should be possible with XProc.
16:25:46 <Norm> ...There's also the merging of the RDF graphs.
16:26:06 <Norm> Alex: That's what I was thinking about. One interpretation is that you'd output RDF directly. Another is that you output Turtle or something like that.
16:26:23 <Norm> ...We should consider what would be useful for people doing something like harvesting.
16:27:25 <Norm> ACTION: Alex to review GRDDL and return with a suggestion.
16:28:16 <Norm> Alex: one outcome might be a standard pipeline but implementors could do it natively.
16:28:52 <Norm> Alex: That leads to an interesting possible enhancement: the ability to say "here's the fallback implementation of this step" but with the explicit provision that a native implementation could be used instead.
16:30:42 <Norm> Vojtech: The GRDDL spec says that the transformation can be any process, typically it's XSLT. But XProc is also a possibility now too.
16:30:55 <Norm> ...I wonder if we do the GRDDL step if we want to say something about what languages are supported for the transformations.
16:31:16 <Norm> Alex: Right.
16:32:07 <Norm> Norm: Alex, as you consider GRDDL, please keep those things in mind.
16:32:28 <Norm> Topic: Possible erratum: definition of an XProc Processor
16:33:05 <Norm> Vojtech: We don't have a definition of an XProc Processor.
16:33:08 <Norm> Alex: How did we do that?
16:33:51 <Norm> Norm: Does anyone think they can write a concise definition of an XProc processor?
16:34:08 <Norm> Vojtech: There are all sorts of rules in the spec, it has to apply the steps in the right order, etc.
16:34:25 <Norm> ACTION: Vojtech will review the spec and propose a definition of an XProc Processor.
16:34:30 <alexmilowski> [Definition: The software responsible for transforming source trees into result trees using an XSLT stylesheet is referred to as the processor. This is sometimes expanded to XSLT processor to avoid any confusion with other processors, for example an XML processor.]
16:35:18 <Norm> Norm: Yes, I think we'll want something like that.
16:35:24 <Norm> Topic: Any other business?
16:35:51 <Norm> Vojtech: I was wondering if having a p:sort would add any value.
16:36:17 <Norm> ...something like split-sequence that takes an XPath expression to use for ordering the documents.
16:36:59 <Norm> Norm: I'm not opposed. I never even thought of doing it.
16:37:13 <Norm> Vojtech: Maybe it's better to put something like this in EXProc.
16:37:42 <Norm> Norm: Yeah, we can leave it there and see if we get requests for a better job.
16:37:55 <Norm> Vojtech: My concern is that it might not be sufficient for more complex use cases.
16:39:05 <Norm> ...if the sort criteria are not easy to express in an XPath expression, for example.
16:39:14 <Norm> Alex: I'm just not sure what the use cases are.
16:40:05 <Norm> Vojtech: The use case that I had was that I was trying to implement OAuth and you have to sort the request parameters before you hash them.
16:40:20 <Norm> ...For that I needed a sort. It was simple string sort so you could do that with XSLT or XQuery.
16:41:36 <Norm> Adjourned. See you in two weeks.
16:41:39 <Zakim> -Vojtech
16:41:40 <Zakim> -Norm
16:41:41 <Zakim> -PGrosso
16:41:42 <Zakim> -alexmilowski
16:41:44 <Zakim> XML_PMWG()11:00AM has ended
16:41:46 <Zakim> Attendees were Norm, Vojtech, alexmilowski, PGrosso
16:41:48 <Norm> rrsagent, set logs world visible
16:41:52 <Norm> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:41:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/18-xproc-minutes.html Norm
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