IRC log of htmlspeech on 2010-11-18

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:47:51 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #htmlspeech
16:47:51 [RRSAgent]
logging to
16:55:39 [Zakim]
INC_(HTMLSPEECH)12:00PM has now started
16:55:46 [Zakim]
16:55:48 [bringert]
bringert has joined #htmlspeech
16:56:25 [Zakim]
16:56:50 [burn]
zakim, nick burn is Dan_Burnett
16:56:50 [Zakim]
ok, burn, I now associate you with Dan_Burnett
16:57:05 [burn]
zakim, nick bringert is Bjorn_Bringert
16:57:05 [Zakim]
ok, burn, I now associate bringert with Bjorn_Bringert
16:57:20 [marc]
marc has joined #htmlspeech
16:58:10 [Zakim]
16:58:48 [Zakim]
16:58:56 [Zakim]
16:58:57 [marc]
zakim, I am ??P6
16:58:57 [Zakim]
+marc; got it
16:59:06 [Zakim]
16:59:30 [Robert]
Robert has joined #htmlspeech
16:59:40 [burn]
zakim, nick bringert is Bjorn_Bringert.a
16:59:40 [Zakim]
ok, burn, I now associate bringert with Bjorn_Bringert.a
16:59:48 [Zakim]
17:00:02 [smaug_]
Zakim, ??P0 is Olli_Pettay
17:00:03 [Zakim]
+Olli_Pettay; got it
17:00:10 [Zakim]
17:00:12 [Zakim]
17:01:06 [Zakim]
17:01:21 [mbodell]
mbodell has joined #htmlspeech
17:01:34 [Milan]
Milan has joined #htmlspeech
17:02:03 [burn]
rrsagent, start logging
17:02:03 [RRSAgent]
I'm logging. I don't understand 'start logging', burn. Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:02:12 [smaug_]
Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
17:02:12 [Zakim]
sorry, smaug_, I do not see 'smaug' on this channel
17:02:19 [smaug_]
Zakim, nick smaug_ is Olli_Pettay
17:02:19 [Zakim]
ok, smaug_, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
17:03:10 [burn]
scribe: Milan
17:03:12 [ddahl]
ddahl has joined #htmlspeech
17:03:18 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.580.aaaa
17:03:32 [burn]
ScribeNick: Milan
17:03:59 [Zakim]
17:04:09 [burn]
zakim, P34 is Raj_Tumuluri
17:04:09 [Zakim]
sorry, burn, I do not recognize a party named 'P34'
17:04:20 [mbodell]
17:04:21 [marc]
zakim, ??P34 is Raj_Tumuluri
17:04:21 [Zakim]
+Raj_Tumuluri; got it
17:05:07 [marc]
zakim, aaaa is Dan_Druta
17:05:07 [Zakim]
+Dan_Druta; got it
17:07:02 [Milan]
Dan: Any concerns with last week's minutes?
17:07:12 [Milan]
All: None
17:07:36 [Milan]
Dan: Le's finish up req 18
17:08:20 [Zakim]
17:08:24 [mbodell]
17:09:03 [Milan]
Michael: Remaining Issue is about the codec
17:09:32 [burn]
zakim, who's on the phone?
17:09:32 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Dan_Burnett, Bjorn_Bringert.a, marc, [Microsoft], Olli_Pettay, Milan_Young, Michael_Bodell, Raj_Tumuluri, Debbie_Dahl
17:09:55 [burn]
zakim, [Microsoft] is temporarily Robert_Brown
17:09:55 [Zakim]
+Robert_Brown; got it
17:10:05 [burn]
zakim, nick Robert is Robert_Browen
17:10:05 [Zakim]
sorry, burn, I do not see a party named 'Robert_Browen'
17:10:05 [satish]
satish has joined #htmlspeech
17:10:14 [burn]
zakim, nick Robert is Robert_Brown
17:10:14 [Zakim]
ok, burn, I now associate Robert with Robert_Brown
17:10:38 [satish]
zakim, nick satish is Satish_Sampath
17:10:38 [Zakim]
sorry, satish, I do not see a party named 'Satish_Sampath'
17:11:02 [Zakim]
+ +1.425.381.aabb
17:11:25 [burn]
milan: want local implementations but know it is unpopular
17:12:12 [burn]
milan: or at least well-defined remote protocol
17:12:37 [burn]
michael: agreed on the latter, and already addressed via our newest requirements
17:13:00 [burn]
milan: want a new requirement about eventing
17:13:06 [burn]
bjorn: already added last week
17:13:23 [burn]
milan: is this part of the protocol?
17:13:36 [burn]
robert: yes, we imply that protocol must support these requirements
17:13:54 [burn]
milan: anything in protocol that will define the session, eg cookies?
17:14:11 [burn]
robert: this is premature to discuss.
17:14:20 [burn]
milan: need to require way to indicate session
17:14:36 [Milan]
Thanks Dan!
17:14:39 [Milan]
I'll pickup soon
17:14:42 [burn]
robert: right. may need to add something
17:15:04 [burn]
robert: may need some logging capability as well
17:15:32 [burn]
bjorn: we already added parameter passing requirement. can use other mechanisms to do logging (eg xmlhttprequest)
17:16:07 [burn]
robert: regarding local reco engines, can require that it shoudl offer same functionality as we would get from this protocol
17:16:17 [burn]
bjorn: isn't that implied already?
17:16:20 [mbodell]
FPR11 could have text to say parameters include session information and logging strings
17:16:29 [burn]
milan: local app could integrate using remote protocol
17:16:51 [burn]
bjorn: yes, but could also implement directly without using the protocol
17:17:29 [Milan]
Dan: If these are new requirements, we should do this by email
17:18:24 [Milan]
Michael: Can we agree on the codec piece?
17:18:34 [mbodell]
candidaye text: There should be at least one standard codec that isn't encumbered with IP issues and has sufficient fidelity & low bandwidth requirements
17:19:21 [Milan]
Dan: IP issues could get sticky, but OK for now
17:19:32 [mbodell]
s/mandatory-to-support standard/stadard/
17:19:50 [mbodell]
s/mandatory-to-support standard/standard/
17:20:24 [mbodell]
s/standard codec/mandatory-to-support codec/
17:20:51 [Milan]
There should be at least one mandatory to support codec that isn't encumbered with IP issues and has sufficient fidelity & low bandwidth requirements
17:21:04 [Milan]
All: agreement
17:21:35 [Milan]
Michael: #7 - Sounds like we have consensus
17:21:46 [mbodell]
requirement: Web application must be able to specify domain specific custom grammars.
17:21:57 [Milan]
All: agreed
17:22:46 [mbodell]
new requirement for R5: Web application must be notified when speech recognition errors and non-matches occur.
17:23:18 [burn]
milan: are we considering non-reco errors as well?
17:23:39 [burn]
milan: missing grammar and nomatches are different
17:25:11 [burn]
michael: intent is to be notified on anything that isn't a match in addition to matches
17:25:47 [Milan]
Milan: Suggest Michael's statment added to discription
17:25:55 [Milan]
All: agreed
17:26:05 [mbodell]
new requirement: (text description include intent and no input and no matches and errors)
17:26:47 [Milan]
Michael: Consensus over email to drop this requirement
17:26:56 [Milan]
All: agreed
17:27:39 [burn]
requirement we just agreed to drop was #30
17:28:08 [mbodell]
candidate text for R26: There should exist a high quality default visual user interface for the speech recognition
17:28:13 [Milan]
Topic: R26
17:28:36 [bringert]
"User agents must provide a default interface to control speech recognition."
17:28:40 [Milan]
Bjorn: We had consensus on different wording
17:29:10 [Milan]
All: Agreed with Bjorn's wording
17:29:24 [Milan]
Topic: R28
17:30:38 [Milan]
Michael: General consent to update requirment to require explicit consent if local capture takes place
17:31:01 [mbodell]
new requirement: web app should be given raw audio access only after explicit consent from the user
17:31:10 [Milan]
All: Agreed
17:31:41 [burn]
17:31:51 [Milan]
Bjorn: This wording suggests that UAs are required to provide audio
17:32:07 [burn]
milan: why shouldn't it be required?
17:32:18 [burn]
bjorn: haven't discussed required yet
17:33:17 [Milan]
Debbie: Are there other ways in which media may be captured? What about other methods?
17:33:43 [mbodell]
17:34:03 [Milan]
Michael: Uncomfortable with the word raw because it doesn't cover codec modifications
17:34:08 [ddahl]
we can't prevent raw audio capture in general because e.g. Media Capture API can also capture audio
17:34:26 [Milan]
All: agreed
17:34:32 [Milan]
Topic: R8
17:35:02 [mbodell]
original requirement: Web application must be able to specify language of recognition
17:36:05 [Milan]
Michae: Several questions on this one (Milan missed these)
17:36:31 [Milan]
Robert: Use cases are vauge
17:37:39 [Milan]
Bjorn: Drop down in web app to select language, and then user speaks in that language
17:37:55 [Zakim]
17:37:56 [Zakim]
- +1.425.381.aabb
17:38:08 [Milan]
Michael: Is this an example of a parameter in the protocol?
17:38:48 [burn]
bjorn: this is more than a parameter
17:39:07 [burn]
bjorn: this has applicability beyond reco-specific params
17:39:18 [Milan]
Micahel: Will be both standard parameters and implementation specific params
17:40:20 [Milan]
Dan: Are we talking about this specific req, or more general topic about the kinds of information for web-app to send to recognizer
17:42:20 [burn]
bjorn: this is a regular parameter, but it's important enough to call it out in the requirements
17:42:35 [burn]
michael: and the mechanism for specifying it is still TBD
17:43:33 [burn]
bjorn/michael: suggest that any parameter that anyone believes is important be sent as separate reqirement so we can discuss
17:43:54 [burn]
general agreement that this requirement is okay as-is
17:44:51 [burn]
marc: does this cover synthesis as well?
17:45:05 [burn]
michael/bjorn: no. should send separately for tts
17:45:08 [mbodell]
new requirement: Web application must be able to specify language of synthesis.
17:45:49 [Milan]
Dan: Objections?
17:45:56 [Milan]
All: None. Agreed
17:46:39 [Milan]
Bjorn: Other aspect was wehther web-apps could query list of supported langs
17:47:05 [Milan]
Bjorn: Web apps should get a list of supported languages
17:47:13 [mbodell]
bjorn suggested additionally: Web apps should have access to a list of the languages supported by the current speech service implementations.
17:47:47 [burn]
zakim, who is noisy?
17:47:57 [Zakim]
burn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Bjorn_Bringert.a (15%)
17:48:03 [marc]
I think Olli's comment is here:
17:48:25 [Milan]
Olli: Some sort of comment regarding mobile devices
17:49:03 [Raj]
Raj has joined #htmlspeech
17:49:18 [burn]
zakim, nick Raj is Raj_Tumuluri
17:49:18 [Zakim]
ok, burn, I now associate Raj with Raj_Tumuluri
17:49:27 [Raj]
17:49:31 [Milan]
Olli: This could lead to fingerprinting
17:50:10 [Milan]
Robert: Unclear which service UA would be querying
17:50:33 [Milan]
Michael: If choice is missing, should return an error or make best effort
17:50:51 [Milan]
Dan: Similar to conflict in SSML
17:52:15 [Milan]
Robert: Might be nice to have en-* be a fallback to en-AU
17:53:13 [Milan]
Dan: Came up with a mechanism in SSML to select which traits were most important in selection
17:53:53 [Milan]
Dan: Basically a priority ordering
17:54:23 [Milan]
... This is just one option. Could specify there is no substitution
17:55:40 [Milan]
... Did this because didn't want to create an API to querty
17:56:08 [Milan]
... Because sometimes just wanted something to be rendered
17:56:32 [Milan]
Bjorn: Want a use case where the user is presented with a drop down
17:56:44 [Milan]
Bjorn: UA must provide that list
17:57:11 [Milan]
Dan: Have a direct conflict with Olli's fingerprint concern
17:58:03 [Milan]
Olli: For example, cannot query keyboard local
17:58:16 [Milan]
... only can use this while typing
17:59:04 [burn]
michael: analogy is getting info on which language is being used but not ability to query for list of available languages
17:59:58 [burn]
bjorn: propose we create the requirement to get list of languages and then will prioritize later
18:00:15 [burn]
michael: how about 2 reqs: one to get list and one to prevent list?
18:00:54 [Milan]
Dan, I have to leave
18:01:15 [burn]
milan, sorry, thought you had 90 minutes. okay
18:01:15 [Milan]
Michael: Put in both requirements, but then sort it out later
18:01:50 [Zakim]
18:01:57 [burn]
scribe: Dan_Burnett
18:02:05 [burn]
scribenick: burn
18:02:33 [burn]
marc: regarding fingerprinting, this only involves local speech services, right? so web-based would not be an issue?
18:02:37 [burn]
olli: yes, mainly local
18:03:00 [burn]
michael: no, default user agent rather than local/remote. if default is remote then issue is the same
18:03:43 [burn]
bjorn: would like to see second requirement be generalized
18:03:47 [mbodell]
bjorn's proposed new requirement 1: Web apps should have access to a list of the languages supported by the current speech service implementations. (with discussion text that this may have issues with privacy and fingerprinting)
18:04:10 [burn]
robert: would like to see more substantial use cases from bjorn for having the list
18:04:29 [burn]
bjorn: how do you handle multilingual users? this is necessary
18:04:42 [burn]
robert: dan's example showed how this could work without an explicit list
18:04:49 [mbodell]
second proposed requirement: Web applications should not be able to fingerprint or profile the user, for example through getting a list of languages?
18:06:03 [burn]
bjorn: if web app wants to show UI to user to select a language, will only work if web app has a list
18:06:27 [burn]
dan: maybe this is a consent issue -- user needs to give consent for the list to go to the web app
18:06:55 [burn]
robert: don't see this happening
18:07:16 [burn]
bjorn: two-way language translator for tourists, where user sets local and remote langauges.
18:07:42 [burn]
raj: this can even be app-wide, but part of the app could be in a different language
18:08:19 [burn]
michael: in both of those examples, need to be able to specify language. this could be done by specifying language you want
18:08:39 [burn]
raj: apps do have need to specify language spoken in ways other than through keyboard or UI
18:08:42 [bringert_]
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18:09:19 [burn]
bjorn: maybe have consensus around requirement that when lang requested by web app is not available a fallback can be specified
18:09:45 [burn]
raj: we should specify that web apps are notified when requested lang is not available
18:09:53 [bringert_]
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18:10:08 [burn]
raj: similar to notifying that reco resource is not available
18:10:22 [burn]
michale: maybe better is "must be able to be notified"
18:10:40 [burn]
... we don't want to require that an error occur
18:11:29 [mbodell]
possible agreement requirement: Web application must be able to be notified when the selected language is not available
18:12:02 [bringert_]
bringert_ has joined #htmlspeech
18:12:17 [burn]
however, not yet agreement on having list of supported languages available -- will take to the list if anyone cares to push for it
18:13:08 [burn]
bjorn: what about: web apps should be able to check if a particular UA supports a specific language
18:13:26 [burn]
olli: in practice that's the same as having the list
18:13:35 [burn]
... the app would just try all the languages
18:14:03 [burn]
michael: could also do this by trying a bunch of recos in a row anyway
18:14:18 [burn]
bjorn: yeah, but user interface would be terrible, so probably won't happen
18:14:45 [burn]
raj: irrelevent. one is about which langs are supported, the other is about what happens if lang not available
18:15:17 [burn]
we agree on the notification part. will take the rest to the list
18:16:01 [burn]
dan: anything else that needs to be brought up today?
18:16:27 [burn]
michael: on vacation in two weeks, but will have the reqs doc updated and communicate by email
18:16:48 [Zakim]
18:16:49 [Zakim]
18:16:49 [Zakim]
18:16:50 [Zakim]
18:16:50 [Zakim]
18:16:50 [burn]
no meeting next week because of thanksgiving
18:16:51 [Zakim]
18:16:51 [Zakim]
18:16:54 [ddahl]
ddahl has left #htmlspeech
18:17:19 [burn]
rrsagent, make logs public
18:17:47 [burn]
rrsagent, format minutes
18:17:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate burn
18:19:01 [Zakim]
18:19:47 [burn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:19:47 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate burn
18:24:14 [burn]
eeting: HTML Speech Incubator Group Teleconference
18:24:19 [burn]
Meeting: HTML Speech Incubator Group Teleconference
18:24:35 [burn]
Date: 18 November 2010
18:24:41 [burn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:24:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate burn
18:25:41 [burn]
Chair: Dan Burnett
18:26:03 [burn]
zakim, who was present?
18:26:03 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, burn.
18:26:32 [burn]
zakim, bye
18:26:32 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Bjorn_Bringert, Dan_Burnett, marc, Olli_Pettay, Milan_Young, Michael_Bodell, +1.425.580.aaaa, Debbie_Dahl, Raj_Tumuluri, Dan_Druta,
18:26:32 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #htmlspeech
18:26:36 [Zakim]
... Robert_Brown, +1.425.381.aabb
18:26:43 [burn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:26:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate burn
18:28:07 [burn]
Present: Bjorn_Bringert, Dan_Burnett, marc, Olli_Pettay, Milan_Young, Michael_Bodell, Satish Sampath, Debbie Dahl, Raj_Tumuluri, Dan_Druta, Robert_Brown
18:28:44 [burn]
rrsagent, draft minutes
18:28:44 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate burn
18:31:14 [burn]
rrsagent, bye
18:31:14 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items