IRC log of a11y-bugs on 2010-11-16

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:48:09 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #a11y-bugs

15:48:09 [RRSAgent]

logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-irc

15:48:17 [Zakim]

Zakim has joined #a11y-bugs

15:48:28 [kliehm]

rrsagent, this will be a11y

15:48:28 [RRSAgent]

I'm logging. I don't understand 'this will be a11y', kliehm. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:49:51 [kliehm]

Meeting: HTML Accessibility Bug-Triage

15:49:53 [kliehm]

Chair: Martin_Kliehm

15:49:54 [kliehm]

Regrets: Laura_Carlson, Joshue_O_Connor

15:49:56 [kliehm]

agenda+ Accessible fallback mechanisms for embedded content

15:49:57 [kliehm]

agenda+ Assign homework for next week

15:50:51 [kliehm]

agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0203.html

15:51:38 [kliehm]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:51:38 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-minutes.html kliehm

15:51:56 [kliehm]

rrsagent, make logs world-viewable

15:52:06 [kliehm]

rrsagent, make logs world

15:52:40 [kliehm]

rrsagent, set logs world

15:53:22 [Marco_Ranon]

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15:54:23 [Marco_Ranon]

Hi Martin. Sure. i'm already online. can you see me. some people can't even if i'm available.

15:54:48 [kliehm]

s/Hi Martin. Sure. i'm already online. can you see me. some people can't even if i'm available.//

15:57:18 [kliehm]

rrsagent, draft minutes

15:57:18 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-minutes.html kliehm

15:58:38 [Zakim]

WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM has now started

15:58:45 [Zakim]

+kliehm

16:00:44 [MichaelC]

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16:01:17 [kliehm]

zakim, move to next agendum

16:01:17 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Accessible fallback mechanisms for embedded content" taken up [from kliehm]

16:01:33 [Zakim]

+Michael_Cooper

16:10:52 [MichaelC]

Question of how to proceed

16:11:12 [MichaelC]

think we should send analysis of issues and get discussion

16:11:21 [MichaelC]

think we should file bugs ourselves when some form of consensus is clear

16:11:37 [MichaelC]

I found some high-level issues in my review

16:12:00 [MichaelC]

there are 3 types of fallbacks: 1) non-support of the HTML element; 2) non-support of the loaded content technology; 3) accessibility

16:12:37 [MichaelC]

these are confounded and in practice if the browser supports the content technology it doesn't make the accessibility fallback available

16:13:19 [MichaelC]

use of attribute for fallback (e.g., @alt) means it can't be internationalized, contain rich content

16:14:12 [Marco_Ranon]

http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/more-accessible-html5-video-player/

16:14:16 [kliehm]

present+ Marco_Ranon

16:14:19 [MichaelC]

<img> in HTML 4 had no ability to mark "this element needs no fallback", leading to heuristic uses of @alt which have interoperability problems but are deeply philosophically entrenched

16:14:55 [MichaelC]

@title and @name have been used for accessibility fallbacks, but they have unspecified behavior in this scenario

16:16:06 [MichaelC]

q+ to talk about mixed fallback and other content

16:17:13 [kliehm]

ack michael

16:17:13 [Zakim]

MichaelC, you wanted to talk about mixed fallback and other content

16:18:35 [MichaelC]

I am also concerned that content models mix fallback elements with <param>, <track>, etc. that are relevant to the parent element

16:19:08 [MichaelC]

prefer an explicit element, e.g., <fallback>, to contain the fallback content

16:22:28 [kliehm]

Images and MathML have @alt and @alttext on the container element providing some kind of title or summary. Elements such as video, audio, SVG, source, and map has some kind of @alt on a child element, but nothing that serves as a title or summary.

16:23:41 [MichaelC]

there is need to "label" elements e.g., <iframe> so user can decide whether to go into it

16:24:22 [MichaelC]

the <video/@poster> plays a similar function, so perhaps there is a need for a "labelling alt" for that image, in addition to more complete fallback for the video itself

16:25:47 [kliehm]

MR: The title has been used in the past on iframe and object for an accessible fallback.

16:26:08 [MichaelC]

@title is used but narrows purpose of a general element

16:26:33 [MichaelC]

Use cases: short text alternative, long text alternative, label, summary

16:27:19 [MichaelC]

full accessible fallback

16:31:38 [MichaelC]

advisory / tooltip

16:32:07 [MichaelC]

MK: what about when embedded elements are nested in each other?

16:34:45 [MichaelC]

could be either each element handles its own, or the outermost element takes care of it and the nested ones explicitly don't require

16:39:52 [MichaelC]

action: Michael to complete use cases table and email to bug triage sub-team

16:54:39 [MichaelC]

zakim, next item

16:54:39 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Assign homework for next week" taken up [from kliehm]

16:55:37 [kliehm]

Marco to address bugs 10455, 10660, 10967

16:56:16 [kliehm]

s/10455,//

16:56:46 [kliehm]

Michael to address bugs 11199, 11207, 11238

16:57:08 [kliehm]

Joshue to address 11239, 11240, 11241

16:57:19 [kliehm]

Martin to address 11242, 11279

17:01:47 [kliehm]

ACTION: Martin will browse through bugs tagged with a11yTF and ping people or escalate them to the TF.

17:02:36 [Zakim]

-Michael_Cooper

17:02:38 [Zakim]

WAI_PFWG(HTML_TF)11:00AM has ended

17:02:39 [Zakim]

Attendees were kliehm, Michael_Cooper

17:02:53 [kliehm]

rrsagent, draft minutes

17:02:53 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-minutes.html kliehm

17:03:18 [kliehm]

present+ Martin_Kliehm

17:03:26 [kliehm]

present- kliehm

17:03:28 [kliehm]

rrsagent, draft minutes

17:03:28 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-minutes.html kliehm

17:04:21 [kliehm]

scribe: MichaelC

17:04:39 [kliehm]

ScribeNick: Michael_Cooper

17:04:44 [kliehm]

scribe: kliehm

17:04:54 [kliehm]

ScribeNick: Martin Kliehm

17:04:58 [kliehm]

rrsagent, draft minutes

17:04:58 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-minutes.html kliehm

17:09:20 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #a11y-bugs

17:09:31 [RRSAgent]

I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-actions.rdf :

17:09:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Michael to complete use cases table and email to bug triage sub-team [1]

17:09:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-irc#T16-39-52

17:09:31 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Martin will browse through bugs tagged with a11yTF and ping people or escalate them to the TF. [2]

17:09:31 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/11/16-a11y-bugs-irc#T17-01-47