IRC log of webfonts on 2010-11-04
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 07:49:23 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #webfonts
- 07:49:23 [RRSAgent]
- logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-webfonts-irc
- 07:49:25 [trackbot]
- RRSAgent, make logs world
- 07:49:25 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #webfonts
- 07:49:27 [trackbot]
- Zakim, this will be 3668
- 07:49:27 [Zakim]
- I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
- 07:49:28 [trackbot]
- Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference
- 07:49:28 [trackbot]
- Date: 04 November 2010
- 07:50:04 [Vlad]
- Zakim, call Roseraie_1
- 07:50:04 [Zakim]
- sorry, Vlad, I don't know what conference this is
- 07:50:49 [Vlad]
- Zakim, list
- 07:50:49 [Zakim]
- I see W3C_AC(*)3:00AM active
- 07:50:50 [Zakim]
- also scheduled at this time are XML_SchemaW()3:00AM, DI_(TPAC)3:00AM
- 07:57:46 [Vlad]
- zakim, room for 5 for 8 hours?
- 07:57:46 [Zakim]
- I don't understand your question, Vlad.
- 07:58:11 [Vlad]
- zakim, room for 5 for 480 minutes?
- 07:58:13 [Zakim]
- ok, Vlad; conference Team_(webfonts)07:58Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 480 minutes until 1558Z
- 07:58:30 [Vlad]
- zakim, please call Roserie_1
- 07:58:30 [Zakim]
- I am sorry, Vlad; I do not know a number for Roserie_1
- 07:58:41 [Vlad]
- zakim, please call Roseraie_1
- 07:58:41 [Zakim]
- ok, Vlad; the call is being made
- 07:58:42 [Zakim]
- Team_(webfonts)07:58Z has now started
- 07:58:43 [Zakim]
- +Roseraie_1
- 07:59:07 [Vlad]
- zakim, code?
- 07:59:07 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Vlad
- 08:00:06 [jdaggett]
- jdaggett has joined #webfonts
- 08:00:16 [jdaggett]
- http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/2010-TPAC#Agenda
- 08:03:50 [Liam]
- Liam has joined #webfonts
- 08:08:16 [ChrisL]
- ChrisL has joined #webfonts
- 08:09:15 [ChrisL]
- guys, my time is split between svg and webfonts. So I will do webfonts in the mornings and svg in the afternoons
- 08:09:23 [ChrisL]
- rrsagent, here
- 08:09:23 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-webfonts-irc#T08-09-23
- 08:10:02 [parkjy]
- parkjy has joined #webfonts
- 08:10:33 [Liam]
- scribe: Liam
- 08:10:39 [cslye]
- cslye has joined #webfonts
- 08:10:53 [John_Hudson]
- John_Hudson has joined #webfonts
- 08:12:49 [jdaggett]
- http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/2010-TPAC#Agenda
- 08:14:07 [Zakim]
- -Roseraie_1
- 08:14:09 [Zakim]
- Team_(webfonts)07:58Z has ended
- 08:14:09 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Roseraie_1
- 08:14:27 [ChrisL]
- zakim, remind us in 8 hours to go home
- 08:14:27 [Zakim]
- ok, ChrisL
- 08:15:37 [Liam]
- agenda: http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/2010-TPAC#Agenda
- 08:15:47 [Liam]
- added to agenda: discussion about ePub
- 08:16:06 [Liam]
- Vlad: let's start there
- 08:16:54 [Liam]
- John: christopher and I sent out some email to colleagues, not yet heard back...
- 08:17:03 [howcoe]
- howcoe has joined #webfonts
- 08:17:03 [Liam]
- May be some concern from some foundries
- 08:17:19 [howcome]
- howcome has joined #webfonts
- 08:17:28 [jdaggett]
- http://code.google.com/p/epub-revision/
- 08:17:49 [Liam]
- We may need in the woff spec to look at coming up with language... if it looks like there's an open-ended creep, woff becoming a general font format, foundries may be concerned
- 08:18:36 [Liam]
- cslye: we need to set boundaries, didn't want woff to be just another font format
- 08:19:10 [Liam]
- vlad: section 1 last para and note says, woff is intended for use with @font-face, which spells out the scope
- 08:19:29 [Liam]
- howcoe: I think it's too restrictive
- 08:19:51 [Liam]
- maybe end the sentence with @font-face
- 08:21:08 [Liam]
- John: from a foundry's perspective it's down to licensing issues
- 08:21:47 [Liam]
- jdaggett: I don't think we're tied to different licensing models
- 08:22:26 [Liam]
- vlad: [speaking for Monotype] we can license a font for a specific use, it's not the technology
- 08:25:28 [Liam]
- [discussion of differences between ePub and Web pages, and whether the spec allows this usage today]
- 08:26:44 [cslye]
- Proposed changed: "The WOFF format is intended for use with @font-face to provide fonts linked to specific documents."
- 08:26:59 [cslye]
- s/changed/change/
- 08:27:35 [Liam]
- jdaggett: ePub 2.1 (current), but what's really being discussed is 3.0 ...
- 08:27:50 [Liam]
- I posted a link to their wiki page. It's not (yet) a very coherent site though
- 08:28:09 [Liam]
- howcome: I think we could see this being used very quickly in ePub
- 08:28:48 [Liam]
- John: might there be useful extensions to metadata for ePub?
- 08:28:53 [ChrisL]
- woff gives an unambiguous license link so is more suited for epub than obfuscation
- 08:29:23 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- TabAtkinsTPAC has joined #webfonts
- 08:30:07 [Liam]
- vlad: tells you the description of the font, who it's licensed for, I think it's all about the font, in woff
- 08:30:10 [ChrisL]
- http://dev.w3.org/webfonts/WOFF/spec/#Metadata
- 08:30:28 [Vlad]
- http://dev.w3.org/webfonts/WOFF/spec/#Metadata
- 08:30:37 [Vlad]
- looking at the metadata section
- 08:36:05 [anthony]
- anthony has joined #webfonts
- 08:37:41 [Liam]
- [discussion of christopher's text, and the word "specific" in it]
- 08:38:15 [jun]
- jun has joined #webfonts
- 08:38:39 [anthony_work]
- anthony_work has joined #webfonts
- 08:38:59 [Liam]
- howcome: the acronym WOFF needs to be explained in the abstract as well as the introduction
- 08:39:30 [Liam]
- vlad: the normative text also has downloaded fonts
- 08:40:23 [Liam]
- John: suggest use Web Documents instead of Web pages
- 08:40:30 [Liam]
- ChrisL: we can always add a glaossary if we need to
- 08:40:36 [jdaggett]
- I would change this to "The WOFF format is intended for use with @font-face to provide fonts linked to web documents"
- 08:40:40 [Liam]
- s/glaossary/glossary/
- 08:41:18 [Liam]
- cslye: does that mean an ePub reader must implement a same-origin restriction?
- 08:41:22 [Liam]
- [several people] yes
- 08:42:01 [ChrisL]
- need to avoid the idea that 'localhost' as an origin gives access to all fonts on all publications
- 08:42:14 [Liam]
- jdaggett: if epub is going to use woff they need to use css3 fonts, otherwise there's no guarantee they're loading the font in such a way that it doesn't affect other things
- 08:42:34 [Liam]
- e.g. there are APIs that allow you to activate a font system-wide on some systems
- 08:42:51 [Liam]
- vlad: the woff spec addresses that
- 08:43:25 [Liam]
- jdaggett: maybe we need to say to the ePub, you need to follow the spec in this area
- 08:43:30 [John]
- Proposal: the WOFF spec contains four references to 'web page(s)'; all four of these should be changed to 'web document(s)'.
- 08:43:34 [Liam]
- cslye: agreed
- 08:45:12 [Liam]
- ChrisL: do we want to send an explicit message to epub or just rely on shared membership?
- 08:46:11 [Liam]
- jdaggett: the daisy consortium, an accessibility group, ended up creating ePub; Japanese are pushing for ePub 3 to become (when ready) a JIS standard
- 08:46:33 [Liam]
- s/daisy/DAISY/
- 08:46:39 [jdaggett]
- s/ePub/EPUB/
- 08:48:14 [Liam]
- vlad: if we make a statement to say that we're OK with EPUB using woff I think that's OK
- 08:48:40 [Liam]
- but I wouldn't want to push it too much, because it only makes sense if they mandate linked fonts in the first place
- 08:49:18 [Liam]
- [EPUB current spec at http://www.idpf.org/specs.htm ]
- 08:49:49 [Liam]
- DECISION: replace Web page with Web document in our spec, in all four places
- 08:51:25 [ChrisL]
- edit done
- 08:53:11 [Liam]
- DECISION: change downloadable to linked, in para before note in intro, User agents supporting the WOFF file format for downloadable fonts MUST...
- 08:53:39 [Liam]
- and next sentence in same pararaph
- 08:56:11 [Liam]
- Topic: Review WOFF spec text before Last Call
- 08:56:23 [Liam]
- John: current status is public working draft
- 08:56:35 [Liam]
- ChrisL: we also have an editor's draft
- 08:56:50 [Liam]
- [we have had public feedback and it's been incorporated into the editor's draft]
- 08:56:58 [ChrisL]
- http://dev.w3.org/webfonts/WOFF/spec/
- 08:58:00 [Liam]
- and http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-WOFF-20100727/ as official public Working Draft
- 08:58:13 [Vlad]
- relevant to our discussion of the WOFF spec: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Nov/0000.html
- 08:59:05 [ChrisL]
- also relevant http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-font/2010OctDec/0067.html
- 09:00:41 [Vlad]
- and http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-font/2010OctDec/0066.html
- 09:03:21 [Liam]
- howcome: I am happy to concur with the majority decision to go to last call
- 09:03:26 [Liam]
- (since won't be here tomorrow)
- 09:04:28 [Liam]
- ChrisL: suggestion to add a URL attribute to the description element
- 09:05:31 [Liam]
- DECISION: add a URL attribute to the description element, as per other elements
- 09:06:09 [Liam]
- [closes http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-font/2010OctDec/0067.html ]
- 09:06:37 [Liam]
- DECISION: add text to say that a URL can be a URI anywhere
- 09:06:52 [Liam]
- s/URL/URI/
- 09:06:54 [Liam]
- s/URI/IRI/
- 09:09:32 [Liam]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webfonts-wg/2010Nov/0000.html
- 09:09:55 [Liam]
- (and response from Sylvain)
- 09:11:22 [Liam]
- DECISION: delete the paragraph, In addition, vendors MAY include additional types of metadata as new elements, ... on request).
- 09:11:33 [Liam]
- (since it is no longer correct)
- 09:11:43 [Liam]
- Topic: Action items
- 09:12:01 [Vlad]
- http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/open
- 09:12:53 [Liam]
- [action 15]
- 09:13:43 [ChrisL]
- action-15?
- 09:13:43 [trackbot]
- ACTION-15 -- Jonathan Kew to split intro to remove these requirements and insert them into a new section, "normative references" -- due 2010-08-24 -- OPEN
- 09:13:43 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/15
- 09:13:51 [ChrisL]
- action-15 closed
- 09:13:51 [trackbot]
- ACTION-15 Split intro to remove these requirements and insert them into a new section, "normative references" closed
- 09:14:17 [Vlad]
- trackbot, close action 15
- 09:14:17 [trackbot]
- Sorry, Vlad, I don't understand 'trackbot, close action 15'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
- 09:14:43 [ChrisL]
- action-23?
- 09:14:43 [trackbot]
- ACTION-23 -- Jonathan Kew to verify whether, with zlib, it's possible to have a stream that allows an EOF midstream, so extra data can be padded on mid-stream. -- due 2010-08-24 -- OPEN
- 09:14:43 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/23
- 09:15:24 [Liam]
- jonathan: it turns out that you can add things that decompression will ignore, so nothing to stop you add stuff on the end of a compressed stream
- 09:15:40 [Liam]
- ChrisL: we already have a private data blob
- 09:16:38 [Liam]
- Jonathan: there's zillions of ways you could hide private data, so I don't think it's a problem
- 09:17:53 [Liam]
- we do reject a font if you leave extra dead space between tables
- 09:18:10 [Liam]
- john: and if the uncompressed size doesn't match... but that's a different thing
- 09:18:39 [Liam]
- jonathan: we could reject if people are trying to slip extra data in, but that'd require reading the whole stream first
- 09:19:00 [ChrisL]
- close action-23
- 09:19:00 [trackbot]
- ACTION-23 Verify whether, with zlib, it's possible to have a stream that allows an EOF midstream, so extra data can be padded on mid-stream. closed
- 09:19:02 [Liam]
- DECISION: action-23, extra data after the font, isn't an issue
- 09:19:23 [Liam]
- action-29?
- 09:19:23 [trackbot]
- ACTION-29 -- John Hudson to review woff faq with chris and vlad -- due 2010-10-06 -- OPEN
- 09:19:23 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/29
- 09:19:43 [Liam]
- vlad: is there something we need to change for EPUB?
- 09:19:55 [Liam]
- John: I like the phrase "Web-served typography"...
- 09:20:20 [Liam]
- we might want to review it, part of the purpose of the FAQ is to popularise fonts on the Web
- 09:20:31 [Liam]
- vlad: the FAQ must not be more restrictive than the spec itself
- 09:20:47 [Liam]
- action-33?
- 09:20:48 [trackbot]
- ACTION-33 -- Chris Lilley to write up the proposed text for WOFF processing model -- due 2010-10-27 -- OPEN
- 09:20:48 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/33
- 09:21:08 [Liam]
- [action-29 remains open, new stuff to look at]
- 09:21:13 [Liam]
- [action-33 ongoing]
- 09:21:19 [Liam]
- action-35?
- 09:21:19 [trackbot]
- ACTION-35 -- Jonathan Kew to add the language expalining that attributes with 'id' as a name should not be treated as element ids. -- due 2010-10-27 -- OPEN
- 09:21:19 [trackbot]
- http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/35
- 09:21:34 [Liam]
- chris: Jonathan had proposed some syntax but I wasn't happy with it
- 09:22:17 [ChrisL]
- http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/webfonts/WOFF/spec/Overview.html.diff?r1=1.24&r2=1.25&f=h
- 09:23:00 [Liam]
- chris: XML doesn't have a standard element called id, it does have xml:id
- 09:24:23 [ChrisL]
- so we should say "of type ID"
- 09:24:49 [Liam]
- DECISION: proposed changes from Chris accepted
- 09:25:06 [Liam]
- close action-35
- 09:25:06 [trackbot]
- ACTION-35 Add the language expalining that attributes with 'id' as a name should not be treated as element ids. closed
- 09:26:33 [Vlad]
- trackbot, close action-27
- 09:26:33 [trackbot]
- ACTION-27 Write up a test suite plan closed
- 09:26:51 [Liam]
- Topic: Review test plan, allocate actions for test creation
- 09:26:56 [ChrisL]
- http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/Main_Page#Introduction
- 09:28:00 [ChrisL]
- http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan-UserAgent
- 09:28:37 [Liam]
- chris: each testable assertion in the spec is marked up in the spec
- 09:28:43 [Liam]
- the test plans link back to those assertions
- 09:29:26 [Liam]
- One in particular, css3font, is not clear
- 09:29:43 [Liam]
- jdaggett: it's important to have this, but I don't think it's sufficient
- 09:30:05 [Liam]
- I think there's lots of cases where you want to create many tests, and in others you may want to test combinations
- 09:30:21 [Liam]
- so this [plan] is important, but it's not like you want to have one test for each one
- 09:30:39 [Liam]
- ChrisL: I've said for some of them you need e.g. 4 tests, but I'll add more tests if suggested.
- 09:31:06 [Liam]
- ChrisL: Quite a lot of these tests will require fonts with a known flaw, to test "you must not..." and we'll also need a font that does render
- 09:31:41 [Liam]
- jdaggett: I made a font with an encoding that displays the word "FAIL" as "PASS" for CSS
- 09:31:56 [Liam]
- jdaggett: it would be ice to use reftest format
- 09:32:20 [Liam]
- a reftest is the idea that you have 2 versions of a Web page that should render identically, and you can test them automatically, by rendering both and comparing the results
- 09:33:13 [Liam]
- Some people will have test suites with tests and images, but problem is hard to maintain, and too likely that people regenerate lots of images without checking carefully.
- 09:33:31 [Liam]
- ChrisL: another reftest advantage is that e.g. sub-pixel rendering will always be the same
- 09:35:13 [Liam]
- jdaggett: example page 1 uses an invalid font, so it'll render with the default font; page 2 uses the default page... so, the pages should end up looking the same
- 09:35:27 [Liam]
- vlad: how would it work if you _should_ see the font?
- 09:37:52 [Liam]
- jdaggett: there's a set of tests, you have to install some fonts on your system
- 09:38:04 [Liam]
- and they're set up so you see FAIL if you didn't install them
- 09:39:55 [Liam]
- Jonathan: it can be difficult to make a font that has _only_ the flaw you're trying to test for
- 09:40:18 [ChrisL]
- Tal can make fonts with specific flaws
- 09:41:14 [Liam]
- jdaggett: I'd like to see some common name, e.g. I've produced fonts starting with CSS-Test, so they all appear together in font lists
- 09:41:22 [Liam]
- cslye: how about WFWG?
- 09:41:36 [Liam]
- jdaggett: I think WOFF-Test would be clearer, e.g. Woff-Test Invalid Whatever...
- 09:42:03 [Liam]
- Specific items...
- 09:44:06 [Liam]
- e.g., langselect, behaviour is optional, so hard to have a fail, current spec not testable
- 09:46:32 [Liam]
- Liam: if it's a SHOULD, your spec passes the test if it's implemented, it's not about whether the UA conforms but about whether the spec can be implemented
- 09:47:15 [Liam]
- ChrisL: for lang it seems it could be automated
- 09:49:22 [Liam]
- ChrisL: next steps? we can still find flaws, and additional tests
- 09:49:28 [Liam]
- jdaggett: some of these are going to be hard
- 09:51:19 [Liam]
- e.g, whether a font is available to the OS
- 09:51:25 [Liam]
- Liam: what about availability to plugins?
- 09:52:18 [Liam]
- jdaggett: ascending-recreated harder to test
- 09:53:50 [Liam]
- with certain system font APIs you don't have access to all the font data structures
- 09:57:01 [Liam]
- Liam: if it's not testable, might be better not to be normative
- 09:57:08 [Liam]
- vlad: we really want it as MUST though
- 09:57:17 [Liam]
- jdaggett: we don't necessarily need to test all elements in the spec
- 09:57:35 [Liam]
- ChrisL: I did this approach so we can make a conscious decision about what to test
- 09:58:29 [ChrisL]
- ok lets go to http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan-Format after the break
- 09:58:46 [Liam]
- John: on font being the same... we've used a couple of references to "the original font data"
- 09:58:54 [Liam]
- ChrisL: I plan to challenge it, to clarify
- 09:59:24 [Liam]
- John: for font vendors "the original font" is something a long way upstream from what we mean, the font that gets shoved into woff
- 09:59:31 [Liam]
- jdaggett: describing this has always been hard
- 09:59:38 [Liam]
- vlad: whatever is provided to woff
- 09:59:50 [Liam]
- John: we need to define that clearly, a glossary maybe or a definition, or a better term
- 10:00:10 [Liam]
- [break]
- 10:14:27 [cslye]
- cslye has joined #webfonts
- 10:17:39 [jun]
- jun has joined #webfonts
- 10:22:23 [John_Hudson]
- John_Hudson has joined #webfonts
- 10:23:48 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ScribeNick: TabAtkinsTPAC
- 10:25:06 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: For the test suite, we'll categorize things that are required, but can't be tested.
- 10:25:51 [sylvaing]
- sylvaing has joined #webfonts
- 10:26:43 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: Let's go through the format tests.
- 10:27:18 [ChrisL]
- http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan-Format
- 10:27:37 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: The majority of these tests appear to be testable by a WOFF validator.
- 10:27:59 [ChrisL]
- http://code.typesupply.com/wiki/woffTools
- 10:28:18 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: The current validator ^^^ actually already tests several.
- 10:29:47 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: It creates an HTML file with the test data.
- 10:29:56 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- [chris shows an example of the results file]
- 10:31:16 [cslye]
- cslye has joined #webfonts
- 10:34:45 [Liam]
- Liam has joined #webfonts
- 10:37:20 [ChrisL]
- action: chris to recategorise the general conformance criteria
- 10:37:20 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-36 - Recategorise the general conformance criteria [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-11-11].
- 10:37:48 [ChrisL]
- http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan-Format
- 10:38:17 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: Where I think the assertions are etestable with the validator, I noted that in the test nme.
- 10:38:33 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: One requires you to have access to both the sfnt and the woff font, because the tables have to be in the same ordere.
- 10:38:44 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: I believe it would be fairly easy to knock together a quick program to do that.
- 10:39:11 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: The WOFF validator does test that the metadata is well-formed, and our schema tests that it matches.
- 10:39:22 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: There's one that now falls into the general category, which isn't testable.
- 10:39:28 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: The "may compress" test.
- 10:39:42 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: You can test that the UA supports it, but it's not something testable for the format.
- 10:39:45 [ChrisL]
- http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/wiki/TestPlan-AuthoringTool
- 10:40:06 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: Many of these require you to compare the woff and the sfnt.
- 10:40:23 [glazou]
- glazou has joined #webfonts
- 10:40:30 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: Like the one that says you must not compress if the compression would make it larger.
- 10:40:53 [Liam]
- Liam has joined #webfonts
- 10:41:08 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: So some of these we'll require an opentype file to be brought into your tools, and if it makes a woff it fails.
- 10:41:43 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: So say you have a fixer program that makes a woff, do you pass if you emit a warning before fixing? Or if you just fix it?
- 10:43:11 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: Currently the spec says that for [that one?], it's okay to emit a warning.
- 10:45:33 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- [chatter about that test, about how changing the padding can alter the checksum]
- 10:45:55 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: We talked about the scope. Whatever is given to the WOFF converter is the input; whatever happened to the font *before* that is out-of-scope.
- 10:46:05 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: So if some tool changes things and corrects the checksums, we don't care.
- 10:46:20 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: It seems the testsuite for this is a bit tricky.
- 10:46:49 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: In some cases we have to say "the tool must spit out an error", but in other cases we can just inspect the woff.
- 10:47:01 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: There is a requirement for the WOFF converter to complain about the input.
- 10:47:20 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: If I have a conversion tool that fixes up bogus fonts before the import, that makes it somewhat hard to test.
- 10:47:57 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: Right. So for all thesee authoring tools ones, it's heavily interactive.
- 10:48:13 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: We can allude to that - "If your tool does [this], you can't test [that]."
- 10:48:20 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: So I've made wiki pages for these categories.
- 10:48:40 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: I asked Tal if he'd be available for phone discussion.
- 10:49:52 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: I think we should set a date for testsuite, and then work our way back to see what has to happen by when.
- 10:50:07 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: Ideally we'd have something by Xmas, maybe middle of January.
- 10:50:22 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: Definitely my idea - by the time we exit LC, we should be ready for CR immediately.
- 10:50:40 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: Did we decide on style conformance?
- 10:50:44 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: CR exit criteria?
- 10:51:08 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: I'd suggest the usual "2 independent impls" rule.
- 10:51:19 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: I'd suggest *not* adopting CSS's "no nightly build" thing.
- 10:52:50 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: We'd have to be careful. Chrome, frex, only releases nightlies as source. I don't want to allow source-only releases as ok, because it's too hard to ensure that you have the exact same stuff.
- 10:53:00 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: The validation tool is built from source, though.
- 10:53:10 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: That's Python. A bit different from a huge C++ project.
- 10:54:07 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: Also, do we require 2 *complete* impls, or just 2 impls of each?
- 10:54:11 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: That's somewhat risky.
- 10:54:18 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- howcome: But it's a pretty small spec.
- 10:54:30 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: As long as it's achievable, I'm happy. It's obviously stronger and better.
- 10:54:59 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: Firefox currently allows things we now say you must reject.
- 10:59:16 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- RESOLVED: To go from CR to PR, require two full passes of the test suite for each category.
- 11:00:17 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: We've got gneral, useragent, authoring tool, font format categories.
- 11:00:48 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: For the authoring tools, what do we have? We have fontforge, jonathan's tool, tal's tool. That's 3 tools.
- 11:00:58 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: I suspect FontSquirrel might not work.
- 11:01:35 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Ask BitStream or Adam Penney if they have a woff authoring tool.
- 11:01:47 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: Do we have strict requirements as to whethere the tools must be public?
- 11:01:56 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: Well, they need to be available.
- 11:02:58 [jfkthame_afk]
- s/Adam/Laurence/
- 11:03:04 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: So it sounds like we have CR exit criteria pinned down.
- 11:03:11 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: Should I take an action to start making tests?
- 11:03:21 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ACTION chrisl to get cracking on test suite.
- 11:03:21 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-37 - Get cracking on test suite. [on Chris Lilley - due 2010-11-11].
- 11:03:49 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: I'd like to be involved in getting/making the test fonts, so we can use them elsewhere, or reuse CSS fonts.
- 11:04:04 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- action jdaggett to help with font creation for the test suite.
- 11:04:04 [trackbot]
- Created ACTION-38 - Help with font creation for the test suite. [on John Daggett - due 2010-11-11].
- 11:06:34 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- cslye: Is there interesting in having both TTF and OTF?
- 11:06:39 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- cslye: I can help with the guts of otf.
- 11:07:05 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: Monotype provided a set of test fonts that are valid ttf fonts.
- 11:07:17 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: What's the license?
- 11:07:24 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: ISO license.
- 11:07:44 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: But it doesn't matter - we can give it to the W3C directly if needed.
- 11:08:01 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: It would be useful to hav a set of tests that involve "convert all these fonts" that exercise a bunch of features.
- 11:08:09 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: What about AAT and graphite? They're also sfnt.
- 11:08:14 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: I'm not sure eyou have testabl requirements.
- 11:08:58 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: We don't really care what tables are implemented in the font, just that *whatever* the tables are, they're also in WOFF.
- 11:09:05 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: There's a real security problem here, though.
- 11:09:32 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: Especially on OSX, it's easier to cause exploitable system crashes with fonts, so we're not using the google sanitizer with a few tweaks.
- 11:09:43 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- s/not/now/
- 11:10:16 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: So private tables are dumped, as an unknown.
- 11:11:05 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: But that happens *after* WOFF has been unpacked.
- 11:11:16 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: The UA is explicitly allowed to not decode all tables.
- 11:11:26 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: But we're talking about an authoring-tool requirement.
- 11:11:44 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: My concern was that trying to test AAT fonts to see if they'r rendered correctly, they won't be.
- 11:11:56 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: But we can just test that the tables are present directly.
- 11:12:51 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jfkthame_afk: One ething we didn't address is that if a UA supports WOFF, they're required to support both OTF and CTF outlines packaged in WOFF.
- 11:13:13 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- John: In LA we talked about reference to an iso level for conformance.
- 11:13:16 [jfkthame_afk]
- s/OTF/TTF/
- 11:13:20 [jfkthame_afk]
- s/CTF/CFF/
- 11:15:05 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: OFF is a file format that covers an sfnt-like structure, it defines a set of tables, but a font could contain tables that arene't in the OFF spec. Doees that make it not an OFF spec?
- 11:15:14 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: The OFF spec just has a set of base tabls.
- 11:15:30 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: And all these formats will have those base tables.
- 11:16:24 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: The MS site says that current OTF1.6 is indeed fully technically compliant with the ISO spec.
- 11:16:44 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- John: They'll probably never diverge, but there's nothing technically requiring them to always converge.
- 11:17:07 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: I think we should include CFF. We're not a conformance spec, so it doesn't really matter if a particular UA supports them.
- 11:17:52 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: There has to be some basic level of behavior that you must have to pass.
- 11:18:53 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- John: The professional design market, a large number of fonts marketed to them are CFF.
- 11:19:16 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: Should we make it a requirement to support rendering both TTF and CFF?
- 11:19:19 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- howcome: NO.
- 11:19:23 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- s/NO/No/
- 11:19:37 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- howcome: This is just a container; you can't start pointing into the container.
- 11:19:54 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- John: A lot of UAs will be relying on system resources for font rendering.
- 11:20:20 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- John: On desktop/laptops, that's probably not an issue for CFF. But on mobile devices, the system may only provide support for TTF, or only unhinted TTF.
- 11:20:43 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: So establishing a minimal baseline, we can at least test that things work.
- 11:21:35 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- howcome: We can use Ahem for that.
- 11:22:42 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: I don't understand why we have a problem with requiring CFF support on the authoring tool.
- 11:22:54 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- cslye: Is there anything that just compares the data bit-by-bit?
- 11:22:57 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: Yes.
- 11:23:28 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- cslye: So the issue about rendering is mmot, right?
- 11:24:09 [anthony]
- anthony has left #webfonts
- 11:24:11 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: No, we still need to test some rendering, to ensure that browsers successfully download and unpack.
- 11:24:45 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- howcome: You can reftest it, by sending the bare font and the woff-packaged variant.
- 11:25:27 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: So on a mobile platform that doesn't support CFF...?
- 11:25:38 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- TabAtkinsTPAC: They'd both fail to render, which is a pass for a reftest.
- 11:26:04 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: You can ask UAs for a form listing what they claim to implement.
- 11:26:26 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- howcome: But as a browser vendor, can I make guarantees, when I'm relying on the system to do my rendering?
- 11:26:45 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: At the end of the day, authors are asking if CFF will work.
- 11:26:53 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: And we're kind of implicitly saying no.
- 11:27:05 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- cslye: I don't care if it doesn't render, I just care if it gets mangled or not.
- 11:27:30 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- cslye: To ensure that theree's nothing unique in the format that makes it come out badly from the formatter.
- 11:27:53 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- jdaggett: We can make tests that pass trivially if the UA dosn't support CFF, or passes if the UA does support CFF and correctly decodes.
- 11:28:10 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- Vlad: There are several conformance levels for TTF.
- 11:30:44 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- ChrisL: We plan to do LC at the next possibility, have a 4-week LC period ending around christmas, then do CR in January.
- 11:33:20 [Vlad]
- Adjourned, will continue in the joint CSS/SVG WG meeting
- 11:33:44 [Vlad]
- rrsagent, generate minutes
- 11:33:44 [RRSAgent]
- I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-webfonts-minutes.html Vlad
- 11:34:11 [glazou]
- glazou has left #webfonts
- 12:02:01 [myakura]
- myakura has joined #webfonts
- 12:24:53 [jun]
- jun has joined #webfonts
- 12:25:12 [Zakim]
- Team_(webfonts)07:58Z has now started
- 12:25:22 [Zakim]
- Team_(webfonts)07:58Z has ended
- 12:25:24 [Zakim]
- Attendees were
- 12:41:18 [myakura]
- myakura has joined #webfonts
- 12:48:33 [sylvaing]
- sylvaing has joined #webfonts
- 13:01:21 [sylvaing]
- sylvaing has left #webfonts
- 13:08:43 [jfkthame]
- jfkthame has joined #webfonts
- 13:08:46 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- TabAtkinsTPAC has joined #webfonts
- 13:18:34 [ChrisL]
- ChrisL has joined #webfonts
- 13:19:26 [Liam]
- Liam has joined #webfonts
- 13:21:17 [tal]
- tal has joined #webfonts
- 13:23:48 [ChrisL]
- rrsagent, here
- 13:23:48 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-webfonts-irc#T13-23-48
- 13:24:40 [cslye]
- cslye has joined #webfonts
- 13:25:32 [cslye]
- cslye has left #webfonts
- 13:53:06 [Kai]
- Kai has joined #webfonts
- 13:53:22 [Kai]
- Kai has left #webfonts
- 13:57:04 [Liam]
- Liam has joined #webfonts
- 14:07:34 [ChrisL]
- ChrisL has joined #webfonts
- 14:17:24 [cslye]
- cslye has joined #webfonts
- 15:18:35 [jfkthame]
- jfkthame has joined #webfonts
- 15:24:24 [ChrisL]
- ChrisL has joined #webfonts
- 15:26:38 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- TabAtkinsTPAC has joined #webfonts
- 16:14:27 [Zakim]
- ChrisL, you asked to be reminded at this time to go home
- 16:25:14 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #webfonts
- 16:28:08 [jdaggett]
- jdaggett has joined #webfonts
- 17:39:09 [TabAtkinsTPAC]
- TabAtkinsTPAC has joined #webfonts
- 18:06:13 [jdaggett]
- jdaggett has joined #webfonts