00:06:18 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11203] Canvas security model does not allow for same-origin relaxation <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0169.html> 4** [Bug 10807] i18n comment 1 : new attribute: ubi <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0168.html> 4** [Bug 11206] Presentational tag [font,b,u,i] CANNOT be removed for many reasons. Three scenarios very good scenarios: 1. HTML5 Mobile sites with BlackBerry
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00:36:24 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10808] text with unknown direction gets corrupted when inserted in content with opposite direction <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0171.html> 4** [Bug 11212] New: Make all the radio button group suffering from being missing (instead of only radio's with the required attribute) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0170.html>
00:36:26 <pimpbot> planet: 10K Apart <11http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/11/03/10k-apart.aspx>
01:06:31 <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10808] text with unknown direction gets corrupted when inserted in content with opposite direction" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0172.html>
01:55:53 <plinss_> plinss_ has joined #html-wg
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04:37:24 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11214] New: here is coment <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0174.html> 4** [Bug 11213] New: here is coment <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0173.html>
04:37:25 <pimpbot> planet: In HTML5 does an <IMG> tag end with a /? <11http://doctype.com/html5-does-img-tag-end>
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05:37:40 <pimpbot> planet: Mark Zuckerberg on HTML5 at Facebook <11http://blog.mozilla.com/gen/2010/11/04/mark-zuckerberg-on-html5-at-facebook/>
05:54:50 <gavin__> gavin__ has joined #html-wg
06:07:47 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11211] Need a way to force a line wrap with the bidi semantics of LINE SEPARATOR when necessary. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0175.html>
06:37:52 <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10828] i18n comment 4 : at least by default, <br> should constitute a bidi paragraph break" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0177.html>
06:48:33 <Julian> Julian has joined #html-wg
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07:07:59 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10819] i18n comment 15 : option element should support the dir attribute and be displayed accordingly both in the dropdown and after being chosen <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0179.html> 4** [Bug 10809] i18n comment 3 : new attribute: submitdir <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0178.html>
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07:23:28 <paulc> zakim, who is here?
07:25:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-wg
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07:28:17 <paulc> rrsagent, make log public
07:28:57 <paulc> Zakim, this will be HTML-WG-F2F
07:28:57 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, paulc
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07:30:24 <paulc> rssagent, bookmark
07:30:48 <paulc> rrsagent, bookmark
07:30:48 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-irc#T07-30-48
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07:38:07 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11211] Need a way to force a line wrap with the bidi semantics of LINE SEPARATOR when necessary. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0183.html> 4** [Bug 10808] text with unknown direction gets corrupted when inserted in content with opposite direction <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0182.html> 4** [Bug 10809] i18n comment 3 : new attribute: submitdir <11http://lists.w
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07:38:52 <mjs> second room: #html-wg2
07:39:24 <plh> plh has changed the topic to: TPAC 2010: We're in Rhone 3a.
07:39:36 <paulc> It is 8:38 in Lyon and we have only 20 people so far.
07:39:42 <plh> plh has changed the topic to: TPAC 2010: We're in Rhone 3a. Second room is #html-wg2.
07:39:50 <paulc> We are going to continue to wait for more participants to arrive.
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07:41:20 <paulc> ACTION-190?
07:41:20 <trackbot> ACTION-190 -- Michael(tm) Smith to fix pubrules problems with "author-only" view of the HTML5 specification -- due 2010-12-10 -- OPEN
07:41:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/190
07:41:21 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-190: Fix pubrules problems with "author-only" view of the HTML5 specification - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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07:50:17 <paulc> scribenick: paulc
07:50:33 <paulc> Chair: mjs
07:50:48 <paulc> topic: Introduction of attendees
07:51:15 <paulc> We went around the room and everyone introduced themselves.
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07:52:23 <paulc> Topic: Review of WG deadlines
07:52:25 <myakura> Timeline to Last Call http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0074.html
07:52:26 <pimpbot> Title: Timeline to Last Call from Maciej Stachowiak on 2010-09-08 (public-html@w3.org from September 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
07:53:26 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
07:54:36 <anne> I'm in DAP atm, guess HTML WG is starting at 9AM?
07:54:42 <anne> will probably miss
07:54:45 <anne> the start
07:55:05 <paulc> See also http://www.w3.org/2010/Talks/1102-html-plh/#%284%29
07:55:06 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Working Group Update (at www.w3.org)
07:55:25 <paulc> anne: We started at about 8:45am
07:55:58 <anne> ah ok
07:56:30 <paulc> Current statistics on bugs are available at http://intertwingly.net/tmp/wgstatus.html
07:56:31 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG Status (at intertwingly.net)
07:57:38 <paulc> 35 pre-Last Call bugs are still open
07:57:52 <paulc> The Editors have until Dec 8 to resolve these bugs
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07:59:32 <paulc> We need especially to make progress on the Accessibility issues:  Media Accessibility and Canvan Accessibility
07:59:43 <paulc> Topic: Working Group charter
08:00:06 <paulc> The Chairs and Team are discussing how to handle our charter that expires on Dec 31
08:00:42 <paulc> Current charter: http://www.w3.org/2007/03/HTML-WG-charter.html
08:00:43 <pimpbot> Title: HTML Working Group (at www.w3.org)
08:01:29 <paulc> We can either "extend" the date on the charter without changing the "scope" or do a major charter revision that would require AC review and rejoining the WG.
08:01:52 <paulc> The Chairs and Team recommend that we "extend" the date on the charter.
08:02:47 <paulc> plh: Extend by one year, get to LC by May + text in the covering note suggesting the WG can look at Requirements for future work starting in June 2011
08:03:05 <paulc> Topic: Discussion topics for F2F meeting
08:04:20 <paulc> Suggestions by email:
08:04:59 <paulc> Kris's suggestion in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Nov/0045.html
08:05:00 <pimpbot> Title: Potential HTML WG TPAC Testing Discussion Items from Kris Krueger on 2010-11-03 (public-html@w3.org from November 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
08:06:01 <paulc> Media accessibility in: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Nov/0020.html
08:06:02 <pimpbot> Title: Re: Media Accessibility Discussion (Was RE: Adopting the media accessibility requirements)) from Janina Sajka on 2010-11-02 (public-html@w3.org from November 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
08:06:38 <paulc> Frank's second suggestion is A11Y bugs
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08:07:47 <plh> Mark Vickers, Comcast
08:07:49 <paulc> 1. Testing
08:07:55 <paulc> 2. Media Accessibiloity
08:08:09 <paulc> 3. Accessibility bugs
08:08:25 <paulc> 4. Timed tracks issues (part of Media accessibility or separately)
08:09:14 <paulc> 5. IETF area director and IANA issues (preferably after coffee today)
08:09:30 <paulc> 6. Link relationships (possibly as part of #5)
08:09:56 <paulc> 7. How to participate in the Testing TF -  Testing TF 101
08:10:09 <paulc> 8. How to participate in the A11Y TF 
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08:11:05 <paulc> 9. Applicable specification related to ISSUE-140 + vendor extension syntax
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08:11:43 <paulc> 10. epub possible impacts on HTML
08:11:52 <freedom> freedom has joined #html-wg
08:12:32 <paulc> 11. Considerations for HTML as a long term storage format
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08:13:31 <paulc> 12. Guidelines for restricted devices
08:14:05 <paulc> 13.Canvas accessibility
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08:15:02 <paulc> 14. Access to External video content
08:16:18 <paulc> - how to discover locally recorded videos?
08:16:51 <MikeSmith> -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Living_Network_Alliance DLNA 
08:16:52 <pimpbot> Title: Digital Living Network Alliance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
08:17:11 <paulc> Looking for an API to do this discovery.
08:17:37 <paulc> Want to find the video elements on a page as well.
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08:19:15 <paulc> 15. New features: challenges and opportunities for accessibility
08:19:58 <paulc> 16. Testing: harness, reference tests, scripting of tests
08:20:33 <paulc> 17. Digital Rights Management (fun topic)
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08:21:27 <mjs> open and raised issues: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/raised http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/open
08:21:28 <pimpbot> Title: Raised Issues - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:21:56 <paulc> 18. Review of outstanding issues (other than those under other topics)
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08:24:13 <krisk> This would be good to talk the test harness, especially with folks from nokia and tv based devices
08:26:36 <paulc> Review of Raised issues:
08:26:43 <paulc> Issue-120?
08:26:43 <trackbot> ISSUE-120 -- Use of prefixes is too complicated for a Web technology -- raised
08:26:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/120
08:26:45 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-120: Use of prefixes is too complicated for a Web technology - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:26:54 <paulc> No one expressed interest in -120
08:27:06 <paulc> Issue-124?
08:27:06 <trackbot> ISSUE-124 -- nofollow/noreferrer not allowed on <link> -- raised
08:27:06 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/124
08:27:07 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-124: nofollow/noreferrer not allowed on - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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08:27:29 <paulc> We should do this in the Link Relationships session.
08:27:44 <paulc> Issue-125?
08:27:44 <trackbot> ISSUE-125 -- Requirement to break RFC 2616 compliance with respect to single quotes not needed for legacy content -- raised
08:27:44 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/125
08:27:45 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-125: Requirement to break RFC 2616 compliance with respect to single quotes not needed for legacy content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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08:27:56 <paulc> issue-126?
08:27:56 <trackbot> ISSUE-126 -- Requirement to break RFC 2616 compliance with respect to backslashes not needed for legacy content -- raised
08:27:56 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/126
08:27:57 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-126: Requirement to break RFC 2616 compliance with respect to backslashes not needed for legacy content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:28:22 <paulc> No one was interested in discussing -125 or -126
08:28:26 <paulc> Issue-127?
08:28:26 <trackbot> ISSUE-127 -- Simplify characterization of link types -- raised
08:28:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/127
08:28:28 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-127: Simplify characterization of link types - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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08:28:45 <paulc> We will add -127 to the Link Relations topic
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08:29:20 <paulc> Issue-129?
08:29:20 <trackbot> ISSUE-129 -- replace or modify the ARIA section of the HTML5 spec -- raised
08:29:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
08:29:21 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-129: replace or modify the ARIA section of the HTML5 spec - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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08:30:39 <paulc> Who do we need to discuss this?
08:31:18 <Joshue> One point of order, is there a call facility for this meeting, so others can dial in?
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08:33:28 <paulc> Can we do this without Steve Faulkner?  Could we do this on Friday?
08:33:56 <paulc> At least one person said yes to discuss -129 + accessibility api mappings
08:34:11 <paulc> Might be hard then.
08:34:29 <paulc> ISSUE-130?
08:34:29 <trackbot> ISSUE-130 -- allow tables to be used for layout purposes -- raised
08:34:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/130
08:34:30 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-130: allow tables to be used for layout purposes - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:34:59 <paulc> Would a session on making a list of arguments on either side would be useful?
08:35:05 <paulc> no volunteers for -130.
08:35:10 <paulc> Issue-131?
08:35:10 <trackbot> ISSUE-131 -- Should we add a caret location API to canvas, or is the focus API sufficient? -- raised
08:35:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/131
08:35:12 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-131: Should we add a caret location API to canvas, or is the focus API sufficient? - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:35:32 <paulc> This would be part of the Canvas Accessibility discussion.
08:35:38 <paulc> ISSUE-132?
08:35:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-132 -- Drop the color input type -- raised
08:35:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/132
08:35:39 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-132: Drop the color input type - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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08:35:58 <paulc> Anyone interested in this topic?
08:36:05 <paulc> No hands for -132.
08:36:13 <paulc> ISSUE-133?
08:36:13 <trackbot> ISSUE-133 -- Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) -- raised
08:36:13 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
08:36:14 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-133: Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:36:55 <paulc> Anyone interested in -133?
08:37:07 <paulc> Place this in the General Accessibility topic.
08:37:15 <paulc> ISSUE-134?
08:37:15 <trackbot> ISSUE-134 -- Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively -- raised
08:37:15 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134
08:37:16 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-134: Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:37:21 <Joshue> +q
08:38:08 <paulc> ack joshue
08:38:15 <jun> jun has joined #html-wg
08:38:16 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11215] New: What about folders? On OSX for example some "files" are actually folders. There should be a way to drag in folders too. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0184.html>
08:38:37 <paulc> Add -134 to the Accessibility Bugs topic
08:38:54 <paulc> Issue-135?
08:38:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-135 -- put back direct link to the W3C version of the canvas 2d context spec -- raised
08:38:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/135
08:38:55 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-135: put back direct link to the W3C version of the canvas 2d context spec - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:39:32 <paulc> No serious volunteers to discuss -135.
08:39:37 <paulc> Issue-136?
08:39:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-136 -- would the <small> element be better handled in CSS? -- raised
08:39:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/136
08:39:38 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-136: would the element be better handled in CSS? - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:40:22 <paulc> Maybe Henri and Cynthia could do this over coffee?
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08:40:54 <paulc> There seem to be three people to discuss -136 but some suggested this is a lower priority
08:40:59 <paulc> ISSUE-137?
08:40:59 <trackbot> ISSUE-137 -- Since Javascript does not support mode specifiers inside the regular expression, there is no simple way of matching a single word case-insensitively besides turning into [Ww][Oo][Rr][Dd] -- raised
08:40:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/137
08:41:00 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-137: Since Javascript does not support mode specifiers inside the regular expression, there is no simple way of matching a single word case-insensitively besides turning into [Ww][Oo][Rr][Dd] - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:42:27 <paulc> No volunteers to discuss -137.
08:42:29 <adam> adam has joined #html-wg
08:42:33 <paulc> ISSUE-138?
08:42:33 <trackbot> ISSUE-138 -- "mutate action" for issueing a GET request is misleading -- raised
08:42:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/138
08:42:34 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-138: "mutate action" for issueing a GET request is misleading - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:42:50 <paulc> Suggestion that this is editorial along with -139.
08:42:55 <paulc> ISSUE-139?
08:42:55 <trackbot> ISSUE-139 -- HTML5 spec mentions Microdata in Acknowledgements -- raised
08:42:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/139
08:42:56 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-139: HTML5 spec mentions Microdata in Acknowledgements - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:43:11 <paulc> Editorial issue - no need to discuss -139.
08:43:18 <paulc> ISSUE-140?
08:43:18 <trackbot> ISSUE-140 -- clarify the applicability of the term "conforming document" in cases where "applicable specifications" had been used to augment or change the base HTML5 specification -- raised
08:43:18 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/140
08:43:19 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-140: clarify the applicability of the term "conforming document" in cases where "applicable specifications" had been used to augment or change the base HTML5 specification - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:43:31 <paulc> Already on the list of suggested topics.
08:44:06 <paulc> Reviewing the Open issues:
08:44:09 <paulc> ISSUE-9?
08:44:10 <trackbot> ISSUE-9 -- how accessibility works for <video> is unclear -- open
08:44:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/9
08:44:11 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-9: how accessibility works for is unclear - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:44:22 <paulc> We have a session on media accessibility.
08:44:28 <paulc> ISSUE-27?
08:44:28 <trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- @rel value ownership, registry consideration -- open
08:44:28 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/27
08:44:29 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-27: @rel value ownership, registry consideration - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:44:40 <paulc> That belongs in the Link Relation session.
08:44:47 <paulc> ISSUE-31?
08:44:47 <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images -- open
08:44:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
08:44:49 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-31: Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:44:53 <paulc> ISSUE-80?
08:44:53 <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- open
08:44:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
08:44:54 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-80: document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:45:25 <paulc> -31 and -80 overlap and have lots of change proposals.  Chairs think we need to either prune the proposals or do a survey with multiple questions.
08:46:24 <paulc> Let's make this a separate session.  Maybe part of Accessibility Issue but it might be too big.
08:47:36 <paulc> We might try to spend time prioritizing the a11y issues.
08:47:47 <paulc> ISSUE-56?
08:47:47 <trackbot> ISSUE-56 -- Bring "URLs" section/definition and IRI specification in alignment. -- open
08:47:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/56
08:47:48 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-56: Bring "URLs" section/definition and IRI specification in alignment. - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:47:54 <paulc> We 3 different proposals submitted.
08:49:23 <paulc> Let's add -56 to the IETF topic (after coffee today).
08:50:38 <paulc> ACTION-118?
08:50:38 <trackbot> ACTION-118 -- Dan Connolly to reformat the document on URLs in HTML 5 as an Internet Draft -- due 2009-05-07 -- CLOSED
08:50:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/118
08:50:39 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-118: Reformat the document on URLs in HTML 5 as an Internet Draft - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:50:50 <paulc> Add this to Link Relation topic.
08:51:02 <paulc> ISSUE-118?
08:51:02 <trackbot> ISSUE-118 -- Specification breaks semantics of existing link relations "index" and "first" -- open
08:51:02 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/118
08:51:03 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-118: Specification breaks semantics of existing link relations "index" and "first" - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:51:13 <paulc> Ignore the ACTION mention above.
08:51:36 <paulc> ISSUE-119?
08:51:37 <trackbot> ISSUE-119 -- Certain relationships take on a special meaning when repeated; other solutions may be cleaner -- open
08:51:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/119
08:51:38 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-119: Certain relationships take on a special meaning when repeated; other solutions may be cleaner - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:51:46 <paulc> Also related to the Link Relation topic.
08:51:48 <igarashi> igarashi has joined #html-wg
08:51:59 <paulc> The Link Relation topic is getting quite big.
08:52:14 <paulc> ISSUE-122?
08:52:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
08:52:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
08:52:15 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-122: alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:53:15 <paulc> Part of Alt text topic.
08:53:25 <paulc> ISSUE-128?
08:53:26 <trackbot> ISSUE-128 -- Authors should be able to use <figure> where <img> can be used -- open
08:53:26 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/128
08:53:27 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-128: Authors should be able to use where can be used - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
08:53:33 <paulc> Any interest?
08:53:44 <Joshue> Is ISSUE 122, the @alt mood bug issue?
08:53:44 <paulc> None heard.
08:54:54 <paulc> Suggested topics:
08:54:59 <paulc> 1. Testing TF
08:55:06 <paulc> 2. Media Accessibility
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08:55:17 <paulc> 2. General A11Y issues
08:55:38 <paulc> 4. Other uses of Timed Tracks
08:55:49 <paulc> 5. IETF IANNA discussion
08:55:56 <paulc> 6. Link Relations
08:56:17 <paulc> 7. How to participate in Testing TF
08:56:26 <paulc> 8. How to participate in A11Y TF
08:56:52 <paulc> 9. Applicable specifications issue-140
08:56:57 <paulc> 10. Epub
08:57:12 <paulc> 11. HTML as long term storage (possible part of 5)
08:57:23 <paulc> 12. Limited devices and HTML
08:57:31 <paulc> 13. Canvas Accessibility
08:57:50 <paulc> 14. External video control on LAN
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08:58:01 <paulc> 15. Test harness
08:58:13 <paulc> 16. Alt (issues-31, -80 and -122)
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08:58:25 <paulc> 17. New features - challenges for accesibility
08:58:32 <paulc> 18. DRM
08:58:45 <paulc> 19. ARIA and API
08:59:26 <paulc> 20. <small> element (issue-136)
09:00:36 <paulc> Scheduling: Topic 2 suggested time is 2pm
09:01:01 <paulc> Topic 9 on Friday (Adrian is at Geo Location today)
09:01:35 <paulc> Topic 5 is after coffee Thu morning.
09:02:13 <oedipus> q+ to ask if can we try and group the accessibility topics to maximize A11y TF participation
09:02:22 <paulc> Should topic 20 be generalized into what is valid?
09:03:51 <paulc> What is the bug that relates to valid or not?
09:03:53 <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10838
09:03:54 <pimpbot> 1110838: kennyluck, P3, RESOLVED WONTFIX, 13Make <u> conforming.
09:05:29 <kliehm> s/2. General A11Y issues/3. General A11Y issues/
09:05:46 <oedipus> ack me
09:05:46 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask if can we try and group the accessibility topics to maximize A11y TF participation
09:06:16 <Julian> s/IANNA/IANA/
09:06:27 <oedipus> can we try and group the accessibility topics to maximize A11y TF participation -- members are on "stand-by" for notice of when need to be available
09:07:28 <r12a-nb> r12a-nb has joined #html-wg
09:08:53 <oedipus> q+ to ask if we can group the accessibility topics to maximize A11y TF participation -- members are on "stand-by" for notice of when need to be available
09:11:10 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #html-wg
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09:13:32 <Julian> dbaron, still working on it
09:13:40 <paulc> 21. HTML as a syndication format
09:13:47 <anne> dbaron, agenda will be on the wiki after we figured it out
09:13:58 <Julian> "in syndication formats"?
09:13:59 <anne> (not sure which wiki, mjs didn't say)
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09:14:09 <MikeSmith> I should rightly raise my hand for everything
09:14:12 <MikeSmith> every topic
09:14:34 <oedipus> dbaron, there is an HTML5 "breakout room" in #html-wg2
09:14:35 <MikeSmith> but I'm only raising my hand on stuff that I'm actually prepared to talk about myself
09:18:21 <oedipus> kliehm, there were intros, but not minuted -- i'm playing "fly-on-the-wall" courtesy of MikeTMSmith and skype
09:18:53 <paulc> Votes of interest:
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09:18:59 <paulc> Item 1: 7
09:19:16 <paulc> Item 2a: 9+
09:19:42 <paulc> Item 2b: 12+
09:19:51 <paulc> Item 4: 7
09:19:58 <paulc> Item 5: 8
09:19:59 <Marco_Ranon> +1 to 2b (I'll be there after the break)
09:20:12 <paulc> Item 6: 4
09:20:20 <paulc> Item 7 - fold into item 1
09:20:31 <paulc> item 8 - fold into 2b
09:20:39 <paulc> Item 9: 3
09:20:45 <paulc> item 10: 9
09:21:07 <paulc> item 11: fold into item 5
09:21:13 <paulc> item 12: 7
09:21:17 <paulc> item 13: 7
09:21:20 <paulc> item 14: 2
09:21:31 <paulc> item 15 - fold into item 1
09:21:41 <paulc> item 16: fold into 2b
09:21:46 <paulc> item 17: 5
09:21:55 <paulc> item 18: 3
09:21:59 <paulc> Item 19: 7
09:22:03 <paulc> item 20: 4
09:22:06 <paulc> Item 21: 1
09:22:18 <anne> https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Apvkq1IRZaQVdFItdlZoYkMxaV9HN21jQ1BHRUl0X1E&hl=en&authkey=CJmm740B
09:22:36 <oedipus> anne, is that URI for the agenda?
09:23:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
09:24:10 <oedipus> would it be possible to use the wiki to post the agenda -- google spreadsheets aren't accessible
09:24:29 <Lachy> Is there going to be telcon available for this meeting later, so I could call in for specific topics?
09:24:42 <MikeSmith> q?
09:25:03 <MikeSmith> paulc, not oedipus on the queue
09:25:08 <MikeSmith> *note
09:25:34 <oedipus> ack me
09:25:34 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask if we can group the accessibility topics to maximize A11y TF participation -- members are on "stand-by" for notice of when need to be available
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09:28:06 <oedipus> after agenda is set, could it be ported to the wiki, as google spreadsheets aren't acccessible
09:31:29 <anne> plh, really?
09:31:30 <anne> hmm
09:31:32 <anne> it's open
09:31:59 <anne> try again
09:32:01 <kliehm> I'm editing a wiki page right now to transfer the spreadsheet contents
09:32:02 <anne> made it public to the web
09:32:56 <plh> ah, I found out that's because I reject google cookies
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09:38:36 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11213] here is coment <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0185.html>
09:38:37 <pimpbot> planet: HTML5 Testing <11http://www.w3.org/QA/2010/11/html5_testing.html>
09:38:50 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-wg
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09:39:50 <paulc> We are breaking for coffee until 11:00 local time.
09:40:02 <paulc> There will be two sessions at 11:00am
09:40:30 <paulc> #html-wg will be doing General Accessibility topic
09:40:31 <SGondo> SGondo has joined #html-wg
09:40:43 <paulc> #html-wg2 will be doing IETF (item 5)
09:41:49 <SGondo> SGondo has joined #html-wg
09:41:55 <Norm> Norm has joined #html-wg
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09:45:51 <kliehm> Agenda for today and tomorrow: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2010_Agenda
09:45:52 <pimpbot> Title: TPAC 2010 Agenda - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
09:46:06 <oedipus> kliehm, thank you VERY much
09:46:12 <mav_> mav_ has joined #html-wg
09:47:08 <oedipus> kliehm, does room 3A accord with #html-wg and 3B with #html-wg2?
09:47:36 <plh> yes
09:47:55 <plh> plh has changed the topic to: TPAC 2010: We're in Rhone 3A. Second room (3B) is #html-wg2.
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09:54:33 <myakura> RRSAgent, make minutes
09:54:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html myakura
09:54:34 <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
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09:58:31 <myakura> Meeting: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A)
09:58:40 <myakura> rrsagent, make minutes
09:58:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html myakura
09:58:41 <pimpbot> Title: SV_MEETING_TITLE -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
10:00:21 <mjs_> mjs_ has joined #html-wg
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10:04:12 <mjs> oedipus, +1
10:04:42 <mav> mav has joined #html-wg
10:04:59 <mjs> IETF topic about to start in room 3b / #html-wg2
10:07:13 <aizu_> aizu_ has joined #html-wg
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10:08:41 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11212] Make all the radio button group suffering from being missing (instead of only radio's with the required attribute) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0189.html> 4** [Bug 11206] Presentational tag [font,b,u,i] CANNOT be removed for many reasons. Three scenarios very good scenarios: 1. HTML5 Mobile sites with BlackBerry8xxx and 9xxx support 2. HTML5 Emails 3. Legacy content 4. Injected legacy content vi
10:12:19 <eliot> eliot has joined #html-wg
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10:13:01 <eliot> ScribeNick: eliot
10:13:18 <ljh> ljh has joined #html-wg
10:14:10 <eliot> topic: general accessibility
10:15:10 <adam> adam has joined #html-wg
10:16:25 <ljh> ljh has joined #html-wg
10:16:26 <jorlow> jorlow has joined #html-wg
10:16:39 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg
10:16:49 <oedipus> thanks to kleihm for emailing agenda to public-html-a11y -- notified silvia directly about general and media discussions
10:17:20 <Stevef> is there no dial in for the meetings?
10:17:39 <jun> jun has joined #html-wg
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10:20:54 <MichaelC> zakim, code?
10:20:54 <Zakim> sorry, MichaelC, I don't know what conference this is
10:21:09 <MichaelC> zakim, room for 5 for 90 minutes?
10:21:11 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)10:21Z scheduled with code 26635 (CONF5) for 90 minutes until 1151Z
10:21:28 <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)10:21Z has now started
10:21:34 <yael> yael has joined #html-wg
10:22:11 <paulc> zakim, who is here?
10:22:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
10:22:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see yael, Marco_Ranon, adrianba, mav, jun, Lachy, jorlow, ljh, adam, yuma_1986, eliot, Julian, aizu_, beverloo, mjs, TabAtkinsTPAC, Norm, wsgondo, Stevef, silvia,
10:22:17 <Zakim> ... kennyluck, gavin__, shepazu, r12a-nb, oedipus, artur, Martijnc, kliehm, hYamada_, taisukef_, scottv, frankolivier, MichaelC, wonsuk, freedom, davidC, homata, anne, MikeSmith,
10:22:21 <Zakim> ... Kai, dsinger, shan, plh, Zakim, paulc, weinig, myakura, inimino, arronei, krijnh, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, pimpbot, phenny, sideshow,
10:22:23 <Zakim> ... ed, trackbot
10:22:50 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-wg
10:22:58 <SGondo> SGondo has joined #html-wg
10:23:09 <MichaelC> zakim, this is 26635
10:23:09 <Zakim> MichaelC, this was already Team_(html-wg)10:21Z
10:23:11 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; that matches Team_(html-wg)10:21Z
10:23:24 <eliot> this isthe general a11y session
10:23:38 <eliot> Topic list as first item
10:23:49 <Stevef> MichaelC: I am on the phone
10:23:50 <eliot> brief overview of how to participate?
10:23:57 <eliot> a pitch for how to get people
10:24:07 <eliot> janina: that would be helpful
10:24:13 <eliot> ...
10:24:25 <kliehm> ISSUE-133?
10:24:25 <trackbot> ISSUE-133 -- Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) -- raised
10:24:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
10:24:26 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-133: Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
10:24:29 <eliot> Issue-133?
10:24:29 <trackbot> ISSUE-133 -- Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) -- raised
10:24:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
10:24:43 <eliot> Issue-134?
10:24:43 <trackbot> ISSUE-134 -- Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively -- raised
10:24:43 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134
10:24:45 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-134: Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
10:24:48 <oedipus> present+ Gregory_Rosmaita,Steve_Faulkner
10:25:31 <eliot> CYS: can we look at the bug list to see if there are any more?
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10:25:56 <oedipus> longdesc
10:25:59 <oedipus> summary for table
10:26:05 <eliot> cys: did alt text get rolled into this?
10:26:16 <eliot> Issue-122?
10:26:16 <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
10:26:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
10:26:17 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-122: alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
10:26:19 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg
10:26:35 <oedipus> HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
10:26:36 <pimpbot> Title: Verbose desc reqs - HTML accessibility task force Wiki (at www.w3.org)
10:27:02 <eliot> assume alt is folded into this
10:27:07 <eliot> ssue-31?
10:27:14 <eliot> issue-31?
10:27:14 <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images -- open
10:27:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
10:27:15 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-31: Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
10:27:20 <eliot> issue-80?
10:27:20 <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- open
10:27:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
10:27:20 <oedipus> 2 high topic issues: verbose descriptor and summary for TABLE
10:27:20 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-80: document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
10:27:25 <eliot> issue-122?
10:27:25 <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
10:27:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
10:27:26 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-122: alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
10:27:33 <eliot> janina
10:27:41 <oedipus> 2 high topic issues: verbose descriptor and summary for TABLE
10:27:42 <eliot> ..how to participate
10:27:45 <eliot> ...alt
10:27:50 <eliot> ..the other one.
10:27:56 <eliot> ...general overview of bugs
10:28:10 <eliot> ...can people suggest specific ones?
10:28:14 <oedipus> 2 high topic issues: verbose descriptor and summary for TABLE
10:28:32 <eliot> Topic: How to be a part
10:28:41 <Joshue> Joshue has joined #html-wg
10:28:43 <eliot> if you're in html, you qualify
10:28:44 <paulc> Issue to be covered -133, -134, and alt (-31, -80, -122)
10:28:48 <eliot> html mapping team
10:28:50 <kliehm> present+ Janina_Sajka Cynthia_Shelly Paul_Cotton Joshue_O_Connor Martin_Kliehm Artur_Ortega Marco_Ranon
10:29:06 <eliot> cys: how AT gets stuff
10:29:08 <oedipus> HTML WG Bug 10853: HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
10:29:10 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853 oedipus, P2, RESOLVED NEEDSINFO, 13HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism
10:29:11 <pimpbot> 1110853: oedipus, P2, RESOLVED NEEDSINFO, 13HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism
10:29:16 <eliot> ...subteam on canvas a11y
10:29:37 <eliot> ...subteam for bug triage w/ respect to a11y
10:29:59 <eliot> ...general discussion of issues around a11y, right before html wg call
10:30:03 <oedipus> HTML5 Accessibility Task Force wiki: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html/wiki
10:30:05 <pimpbot> Title: HTML accessibility task force Wiki (at www.w3.org)
10:30:14 <eliot> ...wd very much like to have ppl involved in those areas
10:30:32 <eliot> ...need more people w/ less experience w/ a11y and who can provide insight
10:30:46 <eliot> ...and who can bridge between q11yTF and the broader wg
10:31:00 <eliot> janina: thanks, cynthia
10:31:15 <eliot> ...to summarize: what works for the a11y TF is to set up subteams
10:31:26 <eliot> ...there are a lot of topics around a11y and html5
10:31:37 <eliot> ...subteams focus on particular aspects
10:31:38 <oedipus> HTML5 Accessibility Task Force wiki: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html/wiki/Canvas
10:31:40 <pimpbot> Title: Canvas - HTML accessibility task force Wiki (at www.w3.org)
10:31:44 <dbaron> dbaron has joined #html-wg
10:31:52 <eliot> ...One key diff between a11y TF and htmlwg
10:32:01 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Sub-Group
10:32:02 <pimpbot> Title: Media Sub-Group - HTML accessibility task force Wiki (at www.w3.org)
10:32:08 <MikeSmith> MikeSmith: agreed with Janina that the a11y subteams have been effective
10:32:20 <eliot> ...is that the TF uses teleconferences. not essential to participate in the teleconference
10:32:30 <eliot> ...work via wiki and other means
10:32:51 <eliot> ...work hard to find good times, though it's sometimes difficult
10:32:59 <oedipus> note that bugs are marked a11y for accessibility / a11ytf for bugs HTML A11y TF has identified as pertaining to a11y
10:33:08 <eliot> ...strong core group of a11y people and developers
10:33:21 <eliot> ...many track the activity via mail and other mechanisms
10:33:26 <eliot> ...questions?
10:33:35 <eliot> Topic: Alt
10:33:50 <oedipus> http://lists.w3.org/archives/public/public-html-a11y
10:33:50 <eliot> janina: recommendations forward from the a11y TF some time ago
10:33:51 <pimpbot> Title: public-html-a11y@w3.org Mail Archives (at lists.w3.org)
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10:34:27 <eliot> Josh: question around Alt, mood, graphics: related to Lady of Shallott?
10:34:42 <eliot> cys: steve Faulkner wrote a document
10:34:49 <eliot> josh: many contributed to that
10:35:01 <myakura> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
10:35:02 <pimpbot> Title: HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives (at dev.w3.org)
10:35:23 <eliot> cys: there's that document published, but the adviced offereds isn't consistent with advice offered in the html spec
10:35:25 <janina> janina has joined #html-wg
10:35:33 <eliot> ...anyone know the status of the issue for that?
10:35:56 <oedipus> SteveF, could you update us on the alt techs document?
10:36:05 <Stevef> yes
10:36:16 <MikeSmith> issue-31?
10:36:16 <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images -- open
10:36:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
10:36:17 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-31: Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
10:36:22 <MikeSmith> issue-80?
10:36:22 <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- open
10:36:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
10:36:23 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-80: document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
10:36:48 <eliot> josh: did we not recommend that document be absorbed?
10:36:54 <eliot> cys: we wanted it separate
10:37:03 <eliot> ...remove anything in the spec itself
10:37:12 <oedipus> note: SteveF is on the phone and is willing to update on alt techs doc
10:37:28 <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-031
10:37:29 <pimpbot> Title: Change Proposal Status (at dev.w3.org)
10:37:30 <eliot> janina: gen; principle we agreed...we wanted documents about, best practices, etc. to be outside of the spec
10:37:42 <eliot> paul: pointer to the status page
10:37:51 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-wg
10:38:16 <eliot> paul: need to eliminate change proposals
10:38:36 <eliot> ..in order to make a recommendation, recording rationale for recomendations
10:38:39 <oedipus> q+ to ask if survey would be a negative survey such as those recently used -- i.e. you can't comment if you agree with someone but only if one has original comment
10:38:49 <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 11212] Make all the radio button group suffering from being missing (instead of only radio's with the required attribute)" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0190.html>
10:39:16 <oedipus> q?
10:40:39 <oedipus> 1. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091209
10:40:40 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091209 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
10:40:46 <oedipus> 2. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706
10:40:47 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
10:40:53 <oedipus> 3. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100707
10:40:54 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100707 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
10:41:02 <oedipus> 4. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126
10:41:03 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
10:41:11 <oedipus> 5. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0050.html
10:41:12 <pimpbot> Title: Change proposals for ISSUE-31 and ISSUE-80 from Ian Hickson on 2010-07-15 (public-html@w3.org from July 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
10:41:22 <oedipus> 6. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504
10:41:23 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
10:41:29 <oedipus> 7. http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510
10:41:30 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
10:42:12 <oedipus> what about the WAI CG/PF recommendations?
10:43:25 <oedipus> need to discuss IMG and FIGURE
10:43:30 <eliot> cyn: let's talk about conformance
10:43:47 <Joshue> Scribe: Joshue
10:44:02 <Joshue> Cyns: Lets look at 2
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10:44:11 <Joshue> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706
10:44:11 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706
10:44:12 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
10:44:13 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
10:44:43 <Joshue> Review of the change proposal.
10:44:48 <myakura> ScribeNick: Joshue
10:44:56 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706#Details
10:44:57 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
10:45:30 <oedipus> suggested text: "conformance checker must report the lack of an alt attribute as an error unless one of the conditions listed below applies:
10:45:32 <oedipus>     * the <img> element is located within a <figure> element that has a non-empty <figcaption> element, or
10:45:34 <oedipus>     * a non-empty aria-labelledby attribute is present. "
10:45:55 <Joshue> GJR: This is from Lauras change proposal.
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10:47:01 <Joshue> Cyns: That sounds like the PF consensus.
10:47:05 <Joshue> JS: Yes
10:47:44 <oedipus> WAI CG Consensus Resolution on Text Alternatives in HTML5: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
10:47:46 <pimpbot> Title: WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
10:47:46 <Joshue> Lauras Second proposal http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100707
10:47:47 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100707 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
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10:48:18 <Joshue> Cyns; Lets look at both.
10:48:48 <oedipus> Replace the Current Text:      A conformance checker must report the lack of an alt attribute as an error unless one of the conditions listed below applies:          * The title attribute is present and has a non-empty value (as described above).         * The img element is in a figure element that contains a figcaption element that contains content other than inter-element whitespace (as...
10:48:50 <oedipus> ...described above).         * The conformance checker has been configured to assume that the document is an e-mail or document intended for a specific person who is known to be able to view images.         * The document has a meta element with a name attribute whose value is an ASCII case-insensitive match for the string "generator". (This case does not represent a case where the document...
10:48:51 <oedipus> ...is conforming, only that the generator could not determine appropriate alternative text — validators are required to not show an error in this case to discourage markup generators from including bogus alternative text purely in an attempt to silence validators.)   [edit] With Suggested Text      A conformance checker must report the lack of an alt attribute as an error unless the <img>...
10:48:54 <oedipus> ...element is located within a <figure> element that has a non-empty <figcaption> element. 
10:50:17 <oedipus> Replace the Current Text: A conformance checker must report the lack of an alt attribute as an error unless one of the conditions listed below applies:  * The title attribute is present and has a non-empty value (as described above). * The img element is in a figure element that contains a figcaption element that contains content other than inter-element whitespace (as described above).  *...
10:50:19 <oedipus> ...The conformance checker has been configured to assume that the document is an e-mail or document intended for a specific person who is known to be able to view images.  * The document has a meta element with a name attribute whose value is an ASCII case-insensitive match for the string "generator". (This case does not represent a case where the document is conforming, only that the...
10:50:21 <oedipus> ...generator could not determine appropriate alternative text — validators are required to not show an error in this case to discourage markup generators from including bogus alternative text purely in an attempt to silence validators.)   Suggested Text  A conformance checker must report the lack of an alt attribute as an error unless the <img> element is located within a <figure> element...
10:50:21 <eliot> Proposal from the editor: 5. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0050.html
10:50:22 <pimpbot> Title: Change proposals for ISSUE-31 and ISSUE-80 from Ian Hickson on 2010-07-15 (public-html@w3.org from July 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
10:50:23 <oedipus> ...that has a non-empty <figcaption> element. 
10:50:30 <oedipus> WAI CG Consensus Resolution on Text Alternatives in HTML5: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
10:50:32 <pimpbot> Title: WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
10:50:45 <eliot> ...suggests no change. Should be surveyed. This does not overlap with others
10:50:49 <Joshue> Cyns; This is one of the proposals that needs to be surveyed
10:51:08 <Joshue> JS: Ok, we are giving the chairs some guideance.
10:51:55 <Joshue> Cyns: This suggestion sounds like HTML4.
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10:53:06 <Joshue> Cyns; I have a prefer for role="presentaion" etc to be valid and it would be invalid to not have some semantic representation a la WAI guidance , http://www.w3.org/2009/06/Text-Alternatives-in-HTML5
10:53:08 <pimpbot> Title: WAI CG Consensus Resolutions on Text alternatives in HTML 5 (at www.w3.org)
10:53:13 <oedipus> GJR objects to requiring a non-native labelledby -- will aria-labelledby be supported by UAs without ATs to use CSS to visually bind description with image
10:53:30 <artur> q+
10:53:40 <Joshue> Cyns: Any one of the 3 works, or leave the spec as it is.
10:53:48 <oedipus> JOC: what about FIGURE and FIGCAPTION?
10:53:56 <Joshue> SF: What about what was agreed in the WAI guidance.
10:54:18 <Joshue> Cys: The most flexible is only @alt like HTML 4 or do nothing..
10:54:34 <Joshue> +q
10:54:47 <janina> q?
10:55:06 <Joshue> AO: The problem with conformance checks is that in a DTD there is a lack of specificity, are elements implied or explicit.
10:55:13 <artur> q-
10:55:14 <Joshue> MS: We don't want people using DTDs.
10:55:16 <oedipus> ack oe
10:55:16 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask if survey would be a negative survey such as those recently used -- i.e. you can't comment if you agree with someone but only if one has original comment
10:55:20 <janina> q?
10:55:40 <oedipus> GJR objects to requiring a non-native labelledby -- will aria-labelledby be supported by UAs without ATs to use CSS to visually bind description with image
10:55:41 <Joshue> GJR: We have talked about surveys, they have been of a negative form generally.
10:56:44 <Joshue> Cyns: I think there is API mapping, that labelledby would fullfill the name role in the platform API, is that what you mean?
10:57:00 <Joshue> GJR: Its important that it is native, so CSS etc can be applied.
10:57:16 <Joshue> Cyns; Can that not be done with labelledby @?
10:57:20 <Joshue> SF: You can do that.
10:57:32 <Joshue> GJR: Ok
10:57:43 <MikeSmith> s/Cyns;/Cyns:/
10:57:56 <Joshue> JS: We recommend that the chairs survey on three of these.
10:58:05 <oedipus> GJR: want to ensure that won't need AT to reap benefits of aria-* attribues and features
10:58:15 <Joshue> Cyns: can someone take an action item to conflate 2 and 4?
10:58:31 <Joshue> PC: So GJR, do you want to restate your question?
10:59:01 <Joshue> GJR: The surveys are negative, so only if your comment is originally negative can you contribute.
10:59:03 <Joshue> JS: Why?
10:59:27 <Joshue> GJR: If you can only add a new comment in this way, it is not truly reflective of positive support.
10:59:42 <Joshue> +1 to GJR, he has a good point.
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10:59:56 <Joshue> PC: The intent is to find a way of generating the least dissent.
11:00:13 <Joshue> general discussion on w3c survey methodologies
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11:01:03 <Joshue> PC: Comments noted.
11:01:16 <Joshue> JS: This topic does need a broader discussion.
11:01:55 <oedipus> GJR: objects to surveys being cited as having "low participation" when rules covering survey are so stringent
11:02:45 <oedipus> can someone put the combined proposals into IRC?
11:04:09 <eliot> Action: janina To: Janina to ask Laura to combine working from proposal items 2 and 4
11:04:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-191 - To: Janina to ask Laura to combine working from proposal items 2 and 4 [on Janina Sajka - due 2010-11-11].
11:05:02 <Joshue> Scribe: Eliot
11:05:02 <oedipus> people need guidance on how to use FIGURE and FIGCAPTION as well as IMG and @alt @labelledby, IMG may not always in FIGURE
11:05:15 <eliot> janina: does the group wish to record a consensus or candidate?
11:05:24 <eliot> cys: combine 2&4
11:05:31 <oedipus> negative 1
11:05:51 <eliot> janina: opposition? discussion?
11:05:55 <oedipus> people need guidance on how to use FIGURE and FIGCAPTION as well as IMG and @alt @labelledby, IMG may not always in FIGURE
11:05:58 <Norm> Norm has joined #html-wg
11:06:16 <eliot> jan:2&4 are not about guidance
11:06:27 <eliot> ..should we survey about guidance?
11:06:49 <Joshue> @GJR look at http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-031
11:06:49 <pimpbot> Joshue: Huh?
11:07:30 <Joshue> #2 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706
11:07:31 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100706 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
11:07:43 <Joshue> #4 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126
11:07:44 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20090126 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
11:07:47 <eliot> cys: 2&4 are the widest array, the widest way to provide text alternatives
11:08:04 <eliot> ...the other two are the do-nothing proposal and the last is the html4 proposal
11:08:49 <eliot> stevef: do we ned to disambiguate 2&4?
11:09:19 <eliot> cys: want machine checking to be as close to author checking
11:09:55 <eliot> ...o we need to structure the proposal with two sections? Machine and author?
11:09:57 <oedipus> figcaption may not provide an adequate alt text -- if one looks at books or magazines, the captions are not very explicative if one can't see the captioned image
11:10:07 <eliot> josh: need to build a solid foundation
11:10:34 <eliot> paul: might want to go broader
11:10:43 <eliot> ...move on to something else
11:10:55 <eliot> cys: impact on the change proposal
11:11:23 <eliot> Topic: four porposals with guidance implications
11:11:32 <Joshue> Scribe: Joshue
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11:12:02 <Joshue> Eliot: Here is the list again. http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-031
11:12:03 <pimpbot> Title: Change Proposal Status (at dev.w3.org)
11:12:10 <Joshue> # Change Proposal: Remove specific alternate text requirements for various specific cases of img and replace with reference to external document.
11:12:28 <Joshue> # http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091209
11:12:29 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091209 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
11:12:43 <Joshue> # 5 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0050.html
11:12:44 <pimpbot> Title: Change proposals for ISSUE-31 and ISSUE-80 from Ian Hickson on 2010-07-15 (public-html@w3.org from July 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
11:12:55 <Joshue> # 6 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504
11:12:56 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
11:13:05 <Joshue> # 7 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510
11:13:06 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
11:13:52 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504#Details
11:13:53 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
11:14:12 <Joshue> SF: #1 says we have this guidance, talks about spliiting it out, replacing whats in the spec with whats here. Or have both but have normative requirement in the spec and this doc to agree.
11:14:34 <Joshue> SF: They both say that these are normative reqs for HTML 5. 
11:15:42 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques
11:15:43 <pimpbot> Title: HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives (at dev.w3.org)
11:15:53 <Joshue> SF: Outlines diffs between Steves version and the spec example.
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11:16:27 <Joshue> Cyns; So does # 1 ask to delete the current spec guidance and point to yours, does it have options?
11:16:41 <Joshue> JS: Are you asking that the current spec guidance be removed?
11:17:23 <Joshue> Cyns: Change proposals should not have 'or's..
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11:17:46 <Joshue> Cyns: We want to survey delete guidance to authors and link to Steves doc, or do nothing, are their others?
11:17:48 <oedipus> zakim, passcode?
11:17:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 26635 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), oedipus
11:17:57 <Joshue> JS; #5 is do nothing.
11:18:15 <Joshue> Eliot: # 7 keep as HTML 4.
11:18:28 <Joshue> JS: It doesn't point to anything or tell you what to do..
11:18:47 <Joshue> Cyns: We are not talking about conformance now..but advice to authors..
11:19:05 <Joshue> # 7 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/index.php?title=ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510
11:19:06 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
11:20:02 <Joshue> Cyns: This doesn't go into author advice..
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11:20:25 <Joshue> Cyns: It's a complementory change proposal.
11:20:31 <Joshue> JS: Not relevant.
11:21:18 <oedipus> are we talking about http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504 ?
11:21:19 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
11:21:30 <Joshue> # 6 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504
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11:21:31 <pimpbot> Title: ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100504 - HTML WG Wiki (at www.w3.org)
11:21:52 <Joshue> JS: We can suggest several options.
11:22:15 <Joshue> Cyns: We can replace the guidance in the spec and leave the spec alone, Paul?
11:22:30 <Joshue> PC: Are the proposals just variations?
11:22:41 <oedipus> 3 options on the table are what?
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11:22:51 <Joshue> PC: Are you trying to synthesis the change proposals?
11:23:54 <oedipus> can you repeat that please?
11:25:02 <eliot> janina: do we want to draft advice on these three proposals?
11:25:12 <oedipus> i think that any suggested resolution be vetted by the HTML TF on the public-html-a11y list
11:25:52 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-wg
11:25:59 <eliot> ...suggestions?
11:26:02 <myakura> ScribeNick: eliot
11:26:22 <artur> I can live with a link to S.'s doc or the 2nd, but not with 3rd option... ;)
11:26:43 <eliot> cys: I motion that we support trplacing advice to authors w/ a link to a separate document
11:27:02 <Stevef> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives
11:27:06 <eliot> janina: agenda item for next week to confirm on TF next week
11:27:23 <Stevef> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
11:27:23 <eliot> ...consensus seems to be in the room. Any disagreement?
11:27:23 <pimpbot> Title: HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives (at dev.w3.org)
11:27:28 <paulc> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives
11:27:58 <eliot> janina: expect that document on the agenda for the tF for next week
11:28:30 <eliot> paul: change proposals or decisions need to be made before last call
11:28:56 <eliot> paul: decide in which order you work on these. 80? 122?
11:29:01 <Joshue> + 1 for the @alt doc to be reference/normative etc one way or another.
11:29:04 <cyns> 3 options: 1) replace the text in the HTML 5 spec that relates to authoring advice for text alternatives with a link to the separate document 2) paste the text from the document into the HTML 5 spec replacing the current text 3) do nothing
11:29:05 <eliot> cys: I thought they were done
11:29:16 <eliot> issue-80?
11:29:16 <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- open
11:29:16 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
11:29:17 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-80: document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
11:29:19 <cyns> 3 options: 1) replace the text in the HTML 5 spec that relates to authoring advice for text alternatives with a link to the separate document 2) paste the text from the document into the HTML 5 spec replacing the current text 3) do nothing
11:29:45 <eliot> jenina: we need to take up 80
11:29:56 <eliot> paul: 2 proposals, one of which overlaps with 81
11:30:10 <eliot> two slots tomorrow: 9-10
11:30:20 <eliot> paul: why not start at 8:30?
11:30:45 <eliot> scribe notes that Paul is powerful enough to use a colored marker
11:30:55 <oedipus> what is janina's question?
11:31:02 <eliot> janina: emoticons...should they be alt texted?
11:31:10 <oedipus> of course
11:31:26 <oedipus> <img src="smiley.jpg" alt="smile">
11:31:57 <oedipus> <img src="winking.png" alt="wink">
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11:32:36 <eliot> For tomorrow, a11y to take room 3a (with audio) from 8:30-10:30, Lyon time. 
11:32:43 <Joshue> +1 to Emoticons :-)
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11:32:51 <oedipus> <img src="tongue.png" alt="sticks out tongue">
11:33:12 <eliot> issue-127?
11:33:12 <trackbot> ISSUE-127 -- Simplify characterization of link types -- raised
11:33:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/127
11:33:13 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-127: Simplify characterization of link types - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
11:33:22 <eliot> issue-122?
11:33:23 <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
11:33:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
11:33:24 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-122: alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
11:34:04 <eliot> paul: null change proposal says do not make it nonconformaing. Are you going against the change proposal?
11:34:17 <eliot> is this the right issue?
11:34:41 <eliot> cyns: was emoticons covered?
11:34:50 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:34:50 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
11:34:51 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A) -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
11:34:55 <eliot> paul: call for change proposals ends on 11/27
11:35:02 <oedipus> call for change proposal ends 27 november 2010
11:35:12 <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-122
11:35:13 <pimpbot> Title: Change Proposal Status (at dev.w3.org)
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11:35:31 <eliot> josh: this is not a bout emoticons, it's about sometihng else
11:35:54 <eliot> cyns: if it goes with no change, then we need to address the example
11:36:01 <eliot> ...122 is dependant on 31
11:37:25 <oedipus> SteveF has a questoin
11:37:44 <eliot> all: issue 122 doesn't have emoticons
11:38:18 <eliot> stevef: got a deadline but there's not been enough discussion about how this is supposed to work
11:38:43 <eliot> josh: I think the issue's badly worded
11:38:47 <MikeSmith> issue-122?
11:38:47 <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
11:38:47 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
11:38:48 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-122: alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
11:38:48 <oedipus> steveF notes that issue 122 is logged against the alt-techniques document, not the HTML5 spec
11:39:28 <eliot> paul: message from 10/27 about the scope.....I'll take care of this
11:39:39 <eliot> janina: epub is tomorrow?
11:39:42 <eliot> paul: yes
11:40:42 <eliot> janina: let's adjourn until 2:00
11:40:51 <kliehm> present+ Eliot_Graff, Mike_Smith
11:42:07 <kliehm> present+ Philippe_Le_Hegaret
11:42:20 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
11:42:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
11:42:21 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A) -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
11:43:10 <oedipus> thanks to eliot and josh for scribing
11:43:22 <MikeSmith> plh, 02:00 - 03:30 Media Accessibility
11:43:30 <kliehm> present+ Soonbo_Han
11:44:22 <kliehm> rrsagent, make minutes
11:44:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
11:44:23 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A) -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
11:51:17 <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)10:21Z has ended
11:51:18 <Zakim> Attendees were 
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12:37:15 <oedipus> zakim, code?
12:37:15 <Zakim> the conference code is hidden, oedipus
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12:39:16 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11217] New: Footnotes I find it hard to believe, that even today, HTML does not include a specific element for including notes within the text. Notes are necessary for the full argumentation in the text without still belonging to the main text itself, and they includ <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0191.html>
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12:55:06 <MichaelC> zakim, room for 5 at 13:00Z for 90 minutes?
12:55:09 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)13:00Z scheduled with code 26634 (CONF4) at 13:00Z for 90 minutes until 1430Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
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12:56:16 <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)13:00Z has now started
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12:59:08 <kliehm> present+ Janina_Sajka, Joshue_O_Connor, Martin_Kliehm, Artur_Ortega, Marco_Ranon, Mike_Smith, Eliot_Graff, Soonbo_Han
12:59:31 <kliehm> present- Joshue_O_Connor
13:00:20 <MichaelC> zakim, call rhone_3a
13:00:20 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
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13:00:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
13:00:50 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A) -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
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13:01:12 <kliehm> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
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13:01:52 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
13:01:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
13:01:53 <kennyluck> kennyluck has joined #html-wg
13:01:53 <yael> yael has joined #html-wg
13:01:53 <Zakim> On IRC I see davidC, Norm, Julian, kensaku, dbaron, freedom, mav, mjs, Kai, shepazu, shan, SGondo, kohei_, artur, sylvaing, wonsuk, raphael, adrianba, jorlow, Lachy, gfreed,
13:01:58 <Zakim> ... mattur, jun, aroben, krijnh, Laura, janina, Marco_Ranon, eliot, beverloo, Stevef, silvia, gavin__, oedipus, Martijnc, kliehm, MichaelC, MikeSmith, Zakim, inimino, arronei,
13:02:01 <kliehm> present+ Joshue_O_Connor
13:02:02 <Zakim> ... webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, pimpbot, phenny, sideshow, ed, trackbot, RRSAgent, gsnedders, Shunsuke, heycam, Philip, jmb, Jedi, Yudai,
13:02:04 <Zakim> ... drry, hsivonen, jwm
13:02:20 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
13:02:33 <MichaelC> MichaelC has changed the topic to: TPAC 2010: We're in Rhone 3A. Second room (3B) is #html-wg2; zakim code is 26634
13:02:36 <raphael> Raphael Troncy: Media Fragments WG co-chair
13:02:42 <krisk> krisk has joined #html-wg
13:02:44 <anne> Anne van Kesteren - Opera
13:02:50 <freedom_> freedom_ has joined #html-wg
13:02:54 <eliot> Eliot Graff, Microsoft
13:02:59 <jorlow> Jeremy Orlow, Google
13:03:04 <kliehm> present+ Anne_van_Kesteren
13:03:16 <kliehm> present+ Jeremy_Orlow
13:03:20 <mav> Mark Vickers, Comcast
13:03:25 <artur> a/me is here! Artur Ortega, Accessibility Evangelist, Yahoo!
13:03:26 <eliot> present+ eliot
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13:03:32 <krisk> Kris Krueger - Microsoft
13:03:37 <hsivonen> Henri Sivonen, consulting for Mozilla
13:03:40 <mjs> Maciej Stachowiak, Apple
13:03:50 <davidC> David Corvoysier France Telecom
13:03:52 <yael> Yael Aharon, Nokia
13:03:53 <oedipus> on phone Gregory J. Rosmaita, sole proprietor and employee of oedipal enterprises, (very) ltd. / invited expert
13:04:04 <Kai> Kai Scheppe, Deutsche Telekom
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13:04:14 <kliehm> present+ Mark_Vickers, Kris_Krueger, Maciej_Stachowiak, Yael_Aharon, Kai_Scheppe
13:04:32 <oedipus> present+ Gregory_Rosmaita
13:04:43 <oedipus> present+ Geoff_Freed
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13:05:11 <pimpbot> Title: Error (at www.w3.org)
13:05:22 <davidC> present+ David_Corvoysier
13:05:28 <silvia> on irc for a bit Silvia Pfeiffer, contracting for Mozilla and just recently for Google
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13:06:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
13:06:01 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A) -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
13:06:10 <sicking> scribe: sicking
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13:07:06 <sicking> JS: we put forwards a media requirements doc
13:07:14 <plh> plh has joined #html-wg
13:07:23 <sicking> JS: people seemed to read it once people asked if it could be adopted
13:07:34 <Bert> Bert has joined #html-wg
13:07:37 <hsivonen> q+
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13:07:41 <sicking> JS: we might have gotten some things wrong, but i'd like to clear up misunderstandings
13:08:07 <sicking> JS: copyright has been discussed
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13:08:27 <kliehm> present+ Henri_Sivonen
13:08:35 <sicking> JS: there was concern that it opened door to other things related to copyright
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13:09:43 <sicking> JS: need copyright info since copyright might be created by different people than creating the media
13:09:58 <kliehm> TOPIC: Media Accessibility
13:10:13 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements
13:10:14 <pimpbot> Title: Media Accessibility User Requirements - HTML accessibility task force Wiki (at www.w3.org)
13:10:35 <hsivonen> q-
13:10:38 <sicking> HS: we should repeat the conclusion from yesterday as to what happens if some of the info in the requirements doc isn't met
13:11:10 <sicking> FO: there are three things that the req doc speaks to
13:11:12 <MichaelC> present+ Sean_Hayes
13:11:32 <sicking> FO: associating tracks with a media element
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13:11:48 <sicking> FOL: need text track format
13:11:54 <sicking> s/FOL/FO/
13:12:05 <sicking> FO: there are requirements on the format
13:12:28 <sicking> FO: user experience requirements on user experience in browsers. These are requirements on the UAs
13:12:32 <janina> q?
13:12:39 <mjs> q+
13:12:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
13:12:53 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A) -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
13:13:10 <sicking> FO: do people agree that the method for associating a track with a media element should be agnostic to the format of the track
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13:13:43 <gfreed> unfortunately i have to leave the call, but will rejoin in the near future.
13:13:58 <sicking> FO: would be good to allow specifynig multiple formats and then UA can use the one they support
13:14:17 <sicking> FO: want to be able to get track info out of the media file itself
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13:14:42 <sicking> FO: we should also discuss the track format itself
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13:15:07 <sicking> MJS: have question on requirement doc
13:15:29 <oedipus> ack mjs
13:15:37 <sicking> MJS: you can't tell which requirements are going into spec, and what are going to be guidelines for UAs, etc
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13:15:50 <sicking> FO: i am working on putting things in differenet buckets
13:16:00 <sicking> PC: we need action items
13:16:28 <kliehm> present+ Frank_Olivier
13:16:34 <hsivonen> q+
13:17:09 <oedipus> trackbot, status?
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13:17:22 <sicking> ACTION: frankolivier to provide mapping from media accessibility requirements doc to spec changes or guidelines for UAs
13:17:22 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - frankolivier
13:17:43 <MikeSmith> trackbot, status?
13:17:48 <sicking> ACTION: Frank_Olivier to provide mapping from media accessibility requirements doc to spec changes or guidelines for UAs
13:17:48 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Frank_Olivier
13:17:55 <sicking> ACTION: Frank to provide mapping from media accessibility requirements doc to spec changes or guidelines for UAs
13:17:55 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Frank
13:18:51 <artur> q+
13:18:53 <sicking> HS: towards end of meeting on tuesday whose position was that failing to meet requirement in media accessibility reqs doc should stall last call
13:19:07 <plh> trackbot, reload
13:19:19 <frankolivier> q+
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13:19:32 <sicking> HS: we need to agree that the requirements that are on the spec actually need to stall last call
13:19:33 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-html-a11y-minutes.html
13:19:44 <sicking> PC: the chairs are unlikely to agree to that
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13:20:00 <hsivonen> q-
13:20:19 <sicking> PC: we'll be looking for change proposals, and then ask if those meet the requirements in the doc
13:20:23 <janina> q?
13:20:51 <sicking> HS: we need to get that on record. I agree with that approach
13:21:09 <dsinger> q+
13:21:14 <oedipus> a11y issues must be included in media section before any media section is "complete"
13:21:25 <sicking> PC: we've told people in the TF that they have until feb 23rd to come up with change proposals
13:21:50 <hsivonen> (for the record, I agreed with what *Paul* / chairs said)
13:22:16 <sicking> PC: if we have 50 requirements on the spec, then people have until Feb 23rd to come up with change proposals for those 50
13:22:22 <oedipus> FYI: if media goes forward without a11y, then there will be formal objections filed
13:22:40 <sicking> PC: we've been told in no unclear terms that we're working on a schedule
13:22:53 <sicking> MJS: i agree, that's what we've been told
13:23:00 <cyns> +1
13:23:22 <oedipus> q?
13:23:23 <MikeSmith> trackbot, reload
13:23:25 <janina> q?
13:23:32 <dsinger> ack dsinger
13:23:35 <frankolivier> Q-
13:23:40 <eliot> +1 to dsinger
13:23:40 <cyns> that was +1 to dsinger
13:23:42 <sicking> DS: if we get the arcitecture correct then we'll be in a good position. If we have a way to link to captions then it matters less about the caption format for now
13:24:07 <janina> q?
13:24:13 <janina> ack a
13:24:21 <sicking> AO: want to explain background
13:24:35 <cyns> q+
13:24:57 <sicking> AO: i'm blind but speak multiple languages. Any of those languages would be fine for me to consume
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13:25:25 <dsinger> for the record, I am clear that we need the architecture in place that enables us to solve all of our requirements, and improve those solutions over time. This is much more important than detailed solutions to all.  Architecture, once incomplete or wrong, will be a millstone.  With the right architecture, we can provide better and better details over time.
13:25:40 <sicking> AO: HTML5 need a way to provide multiple alternatives which are automatically picked according to what I can consume
13:26:02 <kliehm> present+ Dave_Singer
13:26:15 <frankolivier> q+
13:26:20 <janina> q?
13:26:29 <oedipus> ack cyns
13:26:36 <Kai> Kai has joined #html-wg
13:26:50 <sicking> AO: how should we make html comparable to what a tv set can do
13:27:22 <sicking> CS: the requirements doc is structured in terms of user requirements, not spec features. Can make it look intimidating
13:27:31 <sicking> CS: however one spec can meet multiple requirements
13:27:38 <janina> q?
13:27:41 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements
13:27:44 <janina> ack f
13:27:58 <sicking> FO: we can handle track definition spec issues through bugs
13:28:20 <MikeSmith> action-192?
13:28:20 <trackbot> ACTION-192 -- Frank Olivier to provide mapping from media accessibility requirements doc to spec changes or guidelines for UAs -- due 2010-11-11 -- OPEN
13:28:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/192
13:28:25 <sicking> FO: most of the requirements are around text captioning formats
13:28:55 <sicking> FO: seems like implementors want to implement WebSRT, is that correct
13:29:14 <hsivonen> q+
13:29:19 <sicking> JS: not sure if implementors have such agreement
13:29:20 <sicking> q+
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13:29:55 <paulc> q+
13:30:02 <oedipus> Make track element additions technology neutral: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11207
13:30:07 <sicking> JS: happy if some features can come later, such as captioning format
13:30:08 <janina> q?
13:30:12 <artur> q-
13:30:16 <frankolivier> q+
13:30:18 <MikeSmith> ack sicking 
13:30:55 <kliehm> present+ Jonas_Sicking
13:31:08 <janina> q?
13:31:20 <mjs> q+
13:31:25 <oedipus> ack hs
13:31:56 <anne> I do think we really want to have a single format supported by everyone...
13:32:09 <sicking> HS: without implying comittment to anything, but think implementors are happier to implement something like WebSRT, rather than something TTML. One issue is parsing rules, HTML-like rather than XML-like
13:32:18 <dsinger> q+
13:32:20 <janina> q?
13:32:32 <sicking> HS: don't think it's productive to discuss TTML as presumed format
13:32:50 <MikeSmith> q+ sicking
13:33:15 <paulc> 1. Should the split of the rmedia equirements be on 3 areas: HTML5 spec, captioning formats (TTML, WebSRT), guidelines for UAs?
13:33:18 <janina> q?
13:33:25 <oedipus> ack paulc
13:33:34 <sicking> sicking: i'd rather start from scratch than start from TTML, its feature set is wrong
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13:34:09 <MichaelC> q+ to say I'm format neutral, want to do requirements then gap analysis of candidates then look at which one we might want to improve and adopt, but I do (personally) lean towards a specified interoperable format
13:34:12 <sicking> PC: i'm not convinced that this is the right group to do requirements on captioning format
13:34:18 <janina> q?
13:34:28 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11207
13:34:51 <sicking> PC: we should triage the requirements doc towards what *this* group should do
13:34:52 <raphael> +1 for separating captioning formats from HTML5 spec
13:35:34 <paulc> 2. Where should the requirements for captioning actually be done?  Not in the HTML WG?
13:35:35 <hsivonen> q+
13:35:42 <Kai> Kai has joined #html-wg
13:35:46 <sicking> MC: when you say "this group". do you mean the HTMLWG or the people in this room or something else?
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13:36:12 <sicking> PC: if we brought in captioning format into W3C, it wouldn't end up in the HTMLWG
13:36:24 <plh> q+\
13:36:28 <hsivonen> q-
13:36:28 <plh> q+ plh
13:36:32 <plh> q- \
13:36:48 <hsivonen> q+
13:36:50 <sicking> HS: I think it would be fine to bring WebSRT to W3C, and i do think that the HTMLWG would be a fine group to handle it
13:36:57 <sicking> PC: I don't want to delay the group
13:36:58 <MichaelC> ack frank
13:37:16 <paulc> Paul agrees to learn to say "alternative media" instead of "captioning format".
13:37:22 <sicking> FO: yes, TTML has a lot of features, which is both a good or a bad thing
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13:37:52 <sicking> FO: the IE team wouldn't have a problem with implementing websrt, if it was specced in W3C, and that it fulfilled peoples requirements 
13:38:08 <janina> q?
13:38:08 <sicking> FO: I think we should define WebSRT, and publish a spec on it
13:38:11 <anne> q+
13:38:19 <sicking> FO: and we should do it by HTML Last Call
13:38:19 <oedipus> ack mjs
13:38:37 <janina> q?
13:38:57 <sicking> MJS: i can't make promises, but folks working on media feel pretty good about websrt
13:39:13 <sicking> MJS: they don't feel as good about TTML
13:39:45 <plh> q?
13:39:46 <sicking> MJS: partially about complexity, but also that some of complexity doesn't seem warranted. Also doesn't align as well with other web tech
13:40:07 <anne> ("not very much" is an understatement imo)
13:40:23 <sicking> MJS: it's not good that websrt is in whatwg space
13:40:44 <sicking> MJS: it's more important that it's moved to w3c, than that it's moved to HTMLWG
13:40:53 <silvia> could be separate spec in W3C space
13:41:07 <sicking> MJS: if other vendors are interested in implementing it, we should spec it
13:41:11 <oedipus> present+ Steve_Faulkner
13:41:37 <oedipus> ack ds
13:41:42 <janina> q?
13:41:48 <sicking> DS: i don't think there is a "the solution"
13:42:17 <sicking> DS: we need a solution for now. but things can change over time
13:42:26 <dsinger> DS: "the" solution is a mis-leading phrase;  "the" solution is an HTML architecture that allows captions to be associated with media content; we need "a" solution to get going and webSRT may well be that. But webSRT is not and will not be the only solution to captioning ever (even if TTML never makes it), and captioning is not "the" problem either.  Even if we endorse it, we should not make captioning specifically and only webSRT and we should not make altern
13:42:26 <sicking> DS: also problem isn't just captioning
13:42:26 <dsinger> media be only text.
13:42:28 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
13:42:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
13:42:45 <MikeSmith> q?
13:43:02 <janina> q?
13:43:03 <sicking> ack
13:43:10 <sicking> ack sicking 
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13:43:29 <kliehm> q+ to say that alternative media isn't limited to <video> and <audio> either
13:43:40 <dsinger> q+
13:43:50 <frankolivier> q+
13:43:58 <sicking> HS: i think websrt should not go to the same people that defined ttml. Last time they produced ttml which we're talking about not using. I think html is a better group
13:44:08 <anne> ack hsivonen
13:44:20 <sicking> HS: the expertize needed is how to integrate with existing web platform
13:44:24 <mjs> +1 to hsivonen
13:45:00 <sicking> DS: they were asked to create a different type of format, not a delivery format which is what we need now. So lets not critique them
13:45:09 <cyns> q?
13:45:19 <sicking> PC: do people agree that WebSRT is what we need
13:45:19 <dsinger> q-
13:45:34 <oedipus> we need to work on WebSRT to ensure meets a11y reqs
13:45:39 <MichaelC> MC: I'm format neutral, want to do user requirements then technical requirements then gap analysis of candidate features then look at which one we might want to improve and adopt with potential enhancement; I do (personally) lean towards a specified interoperable format
13:45:51 <sicking> PC: we don't get to make the decision where the spec ends up, it's up to the AC
13:45:52 <janina> ack m
13:45:52 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say I'm format neutral, want to do requirements then gap analysis of candidates then look at which one we might want to improve and adopt, but I do
13:45:55 <Zakim> ... (personally) lean towards a specified interoperable format
13:46:16 <cyns> q+
13:46:33 <cyns> cyns has joined #html-wg
13:46:55 <sicking> MJS: previously we talked about splitting spec requirements vs. other requirements. We shold focus on the former
13:47:27 <oedipus> Make track element additions technology neutral: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11207
13:47:32 <adam> adam has joined #html-wg
13:48:00 <oedipus> q?
13:48:58 <kliehm> ack plh
13:49:10 <sicking> CS: we might need some amount of gap analysis, but it seems like the track element is what needs to go into HTML which is a deeper arch thing
13:49:32 <janina> q?
13:49:43 <sicking> PLH: i'm worried about not looking at the format at all, then by feb 23rd we might not have a solution at all
13:50:00 <oedipus> plus 1 to PLH
13:50:06 <sicking> PLH: the question about which group should do it is a question about patents
13:50:25 <sicking> HS: aren't we rechartering soon anyway?
13:50:32 <hsivonen> We should also analyze the proposal that modifies WebSRT with the HTML fragment parsing algorithm
13:50:43 <sicking> PC: we'll probably ask for a charter extension, not a charter revision
13:50:58 <sicking> PLH: we can always create a new WG for websrt, we can do it quickly
13:51:19 <sicking> PLH: i agree the existing text WG might not be a good place
13:51:22 <oedipus> ack anne
13:51:30 <silvia> why not leave the development of the WebSRT spec to the a11y TF?
13:51:32 <janina> q?
13:51:32 <kliehm> ack anne
13:51:44 <sicking> AVK: we prefer to have a single format to implement, rather than multiple
13:51:45 <raphael> s/existing text WG/existing TimedText WG
13:51:54 <plh> plh: there is expertise in the TTML wg that would be useful to have in the new wg
13:52:12 <kliehm> ack me
13:52:12 <Zakim> kliehm, you wanted to say that alternative media isn't limited to <video> and <audio> either
13:52:21 <sicking> DS: i don't think we'll end up with multiple formats Websrt looks like a good start
13:52:21 <raphael> silvia, a spec is produced by a WG chartered for doing so
13:52:40 <sicking> s/MC/MK/g
13:52:43 <sicking> thanks
13:52:47 <cyns> q-
13:53:04 <dsinger> ds: I don't see an immediate need for multiple formats and at the moment webSRT seems like a perfectly fine place, even if it's not the be-all and end-all of captioning
13:53:09 <sicking> ACTION: paulc and co-chairs to investigate how to handle standardization of websrt
13:53:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-193 - And co-chairs to investigate how to handle standardization of websrt [on Paul Cotton - due 2010-11-11].
13:53:31 <sicking> JS: so assumption is websrt is what we'll use?
13:53:38 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
13:53:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
13:53:44 <sicking> DS: no, it'll be *a* solution that we can use
13:53:51 <janina> q?
13:54:39 <sicking> PC: so frank will come up with requirements out of the requirements doc which relate to alternative media format
13:55:08 <artur> +1
13:55:11 <artur> independently ofany format we have to decide to be able to specify alternative audio (e.g. audiodescription, clear voice, different languages), alternative/additional video (e.g. several different s), sign languages), different kind of closed-captions (e.g. with video description, different langueages, etc.) with the media elements audio( & video.
13:55:23 <plh> q?
13:55:24 <sicking> MK: the problem isn't just for video, it's also for audio, canvas, image, etc
13:55:32 <oedipus> plus 1 to  artur
13:55:49 <sicking> MK: we need a solution that works for more than video
13:55:52 <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8885
13:56:00 <janina> q?
13:56:01 <kliehm> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#embedded-content-1
13:56:06 <janina> ack f
13:56:21 <sicking> FO: doesn't seem like any browser vendor has a major problem with websrt?
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13:56:39 <kliehm> s/need a solution/need a consistent solution/
13:56:40 <sicking> FO: we'll keep the HTML <track> feature open, so that it can work for other formats as well
13:56:43 <Sean> correction: With a well defined WebSRT
13:56:57 <janina> q?
13:57:11 <sicking> undo my previous s/MC/MK/g
13:57:15 <sicking> MC != MK
13:57:52 <matt> matt has left #html-wg
13:58:02 <anne> whisky for everyone
13:58:07 <kliehm> s/for more than video/for more than video so that UA can provide alternative content based on user's choices/
13:58:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
13:59:09 <frankolivier> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements 
13:59:10 <anne> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Requirements
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13:59:49 <sicking> FO: DV 1,2,5,6,10,11,12 seem to be UA guidelines
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14:01:03 <kliehm> s/MK: we need a solution that works for more than video/MK: need a consistent solution for more than video so that UA can provide alternative content based on user's choices/
14:01:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
14:01:11 <sicking> CS: should "author should be able to override volume" say "user should be able to override volume"
14:01:42 <sicking> SH: actually, author is correct, it's probably a requirement on the media format
14:02:07 <sicking> FO: DV 3,4 are in spec today
14:02:28 <sicking> FO: DV 7,8,13 need more info
14:02:58 <sicking> JS: i think this is a lifted requirement for other WG, want smooth transitions in volume, not big steps
14:03:51 <sicking> HS: does it require a audio format which represents stereophonic middle, and separate info how to pan it?
14:03:56 <Sean> that is how its done in TV
14:03:57 <sicking> JS: maybe, i don't know
14:04:11 <oedipus> UAAG sees 3 levels of control: 1. gross (on/off) 2. author defined increments 3. user access to all media player's increments
14:04:25 <sicking> HS: why not mix the two together?
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14:05:00 <sicking> CS: does this affect the spec?
14:05:38 <sicking> HS: it might affect the spec if the HTML spec needs to be able to link to a separate file which contain panning info
14:06:11 <sicking> JS: DV13 is a UA issue
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14:07:06 <sicking> FO: DV14, about copyright, has been discussed a lo
14:07:07 <sicking> t
14:07:09 <plh> q+
14:07:54 <sicking> HS: if the track format has a place to put human-readable copyright info, then this requirement is met
14:08:08 <sicking> FO: that seems correct
14:09:31 <sicking> PLH: media annotations working group need review from browser vendors on the API they are proposing
14:10:44 <sicking> FO: CC1,12,13 are user experience requirement
14:11:08 <sicking> FO:CC14 seems like a format requirement
14:11:52 <Sean> CC14 is there to allow parity with US TV caption sources
14:12:06 <sicking> FO: CC15 is UX issue
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14:12:27 <sicking> FO: CC15,23,24 is UX issue
14:12:40 <sicking> HS: CC26 spec supports this already
14:12:52 <sicking> FO: CC22 in spec already
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14:13:15 <sicking> FO: 17.2 already in spec
14:13:22 <sicking> FO: CC17.2 already in spec
14:13:44 <richardschwerdtfe> yep
14:13:54 <mav> Is there an existing capability or requirement for programmatic access to closed caption data for non-display usage (e.g. searching for keywords)?
14:14:33 <sicking> FO: CC2  format req
14:14:47 <oedipus> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
14:14:54 <sicking> FO: CC3,4 format req
14:16:11 <sicking> MJS: CC5 depends on who makes the decision of where the text goes. If author determines it, then it's a spec requirement, if user decides then it's a UX req
14:16:35 <sicking> FO: CC6,7 is UX req
14:16:41 <sicking> FO: CC8 is format req
14:17:35 <sicking> FO: you can stop scribing, i'll send out this list
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14:18:19 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:18:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
14:20:05 <hsivonen> it seems to me that there are a lot of reqs that would be met by HTML fragment algorithm-augmented WebSRT but not Hixie's WebSRT
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14:36:55 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2010_Agenda
14:37:43 <oedipus> @kliehm, thanks
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15:00:45 <mjs> oedipus, we are going to continue media a11y for half an hour
15:01:13 <oedipus> thanks, mjs - i shouldn't have hung up to recharge phone -- all 5 slots seem to be filled :(
15:04:32 <Sean> Sean is irc only
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15:04:43 <anne> dsinger, basically, you use the API and a metadata track
15:04:54 <anne> dsinger, that is my understanding, anyway
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15:05:51 <anne> no scribing needed?
15:05:52 <oedipus> zakim says the conference is restricted at this time
15:06:12 <oedipus> sean, jim and i are IRC only, so scribing would be appreciated
15:06:20 <mjs> oedipus, we are going to hang up and redial the call
15:06:22 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)15:06Z scheduled with code 26636 (CONF6) for 60 minutes until 1606Z; however, please note that capacity is now overbooked
15:06:45 <MichaelC> zakim, call rhone_3a
15:06:45 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
15:06:58 <MichaelC> everyone, redial using 26636
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15:10:26 <Sean> Not connected to conference room
15:10:50 <Sean> yes
15:11:13 <Sean> no we cant
15:11:15 <oedipus> no we can't -- at least i can't
15:11:35 <Sean> did you mean 26636 or 26634
15:11:47 <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)13:00Z has ended
15:11:48 <Zakim> Attendees were 
15:11:56 <Sean> as did I
15:12:21 <Sean> ok hear you now
15:13:04 <MichaelC> MichaelC has changed the topic to: TPAC 2010: We're in Rhone 3A. Second room (3B) is #html-wg2; zakim code is 26636
15:15:53 <Stevef> oedipus: I am here too 
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15:30:52 <oedipus> plh post on DV-4media accessibility and API for Media Resource 1.0 referencing http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-mediaont-api-1.0-20100608/ - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Nov/0060.html
15:33:35 <sicking> PC: when discussing this on the list, please start a new thread for each item and put the moniker of the issue in the subject field 
15:34:12 <Sean> am I on the right call for the track discussion?
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15:35:36 <paulc> Topic: Other uses of timed tracks
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15:35:48 <paulc> Testing is on #HTML-WG2
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15:37:08 <cyns> MV: we've been looking at mapping commercial video onto html 5
15:37:19 <cyns> video looks fine, UI for user guide is fine, but we have issues
15:37:33 <cyns> MV:  things with issues are data.
15:37:52 <cyns> MV: data we extract out to do various things.  might be usefult for timed tracks.
15:38:06 <eliot> ScribeNick: eliot
15:38:11 <mav> Examples of non-accessibility uses of Timed Tracks:
15:38:11 <mav> They are in-band timed tracks and media-resource-specific timed tracks.
15:38:11 <mav> 1. Programmatic access to closed caption data for non-display usage (e.g. searching for keywords)
15:38:12 <mav> 2. Television content rating codes
15:38:12 <mav> - example: US Parental Controls (V-chip)
15:38:12 <mav> http://tia.nufu.eu/std/EIA-744-A
15:38:14 <mav> 3. Enhanced TV (ETV) application messaging
15:38:16 <mav> - example: NA Cable EISS (ETV Integrated Signaling Stream) messaging
15:38:17 <mav> http://www.cablelabs.com/specifications/OC-SP-ETV-AM1.0-I05-091125.pdf
15:38:19 <mav> 4. Client-side ad insertion
15:38:21 <mav> - example: SCTE 35
15:38:42 <eliot> MV: these cd be out of band
15:38:50 <eliot> ...examples from north american cable
15:39:00 <eliot> ...but cd be from around the world
15:39:10 <eliot> ...first is programmatic access
15:39:19 <eliot> ..look for key words, not for display
15:39:27 <eliot> ...but for an app to use
15:39:42 <eliot> ...you can use associated metadata
15:39:47 <eliot> ...never exposed to user
15:40:02 <eliot> ...is it possible in current architecture?
15:40:18 <oedipus> API for Media Resource 1.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-mediaont-api-1.0-20100608/
15:40:39 <eliot> DS: given that audio group...camera to picture, etc., that programmatic access what's the current thinking?
15:41:11 <eliot> FO: spec says you can extract these. unique id for every queue
15:41:35 <eliot> FO: I think this is supported today. You can switch tracks 
15:41:44 <eliot> ...one concern:
15:41:55 <eliot> ...some ppl think that the captdn't be exposedion 
15:42:13 <eliot> s/exposedion/exposed 
15:42:23 <eliot> Janina: DRM issue
15:42:38 <eliot> MV: same could be said to programmatic access to the audio
15:42:54 <eliot> FO: Is this a real thing or are we being 
15:43:07 <eliot> MV: never heard anyone compain of it (afaik)
15:43:31 <eliot> DS:I could imagine someone complaining
15:43:48 <Sean> In TV captions are somewhat obscured because you need specialist equipment to extract them
15:44:06 <Sean> on the web its going to be easy to wholesale grab them
15:44:11 <eliot> DS: you can display these captions but cannot use them programmatically
15:44:46 <eliot> janina: using them as intended is not republishing
15:44:57 <eliot> MV: 2nd example comes from tv content rating code
15:45:05 <Sean> A format could add explict metadata to allow third party use of specific items
15:45:12 <eliot> ...in US, v-chip system is a rating code
15:45:37 <eliot> ...they come down as a simple code that's sent continuously and changes for boundaries
15:45:52 <eliot> ...it is timed, in that it's associated w/ a certain time
15:46:05 <eliot> ...but you'd want to know the value when you tune in and then when it changes
15:46:11 <oedipus> captioning re-uses copyrighted content to make it accessible to those who cannot hear along with indications of purely aural events (such as a door slam) -- audio description, it has been argued, is commentary on copyrighted content
15:46:25 <eliot> DS: could be a track type
15:46:59 <eliot> MV: could black out a certain value
15:47:14 <eliot> ...tv's are looking to implement html5 interface
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15:47:47 <eliot> MV: description of current APIs seem very caption-oriented
15:47:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
15:48:00 <eliot> ...you wouldn't want a cue up every time it's sent
15:48:12 <eliot> MV: 3rd example
15:48:14 <gfreed> okay, will be calling in in a minute.
15:48:22 <eliot> ...enhanced tv: an interactive element
15:48:33 <eliot> ...example: game show that you play along with
15:48:34 <gfreed> got it-- thanks.
15:49:13 <eliot> have to have timed cues that correspond to the moment
15:49:29 <eliot> ...applications cues...metadata? application cues?
15:49:35 <eliot> ...in NA cable, EITS
15:49:49 <eliot> ...comes down to ..you deliver app-specific things
15:49:57 <eliot> ...then a block of data
15:50:26 <eliot> MK: Can be more than Q&A. Could it be smiles? Advertisements?
15:50:47 <eliot> MV: absolutely. Send me more info. Main use in US is for augmented advertising
15:51:02 <eliot> ....seems very light time tracks, but we need to figure out how to make it work
15:51:20 <eliot> ...people expect to have interactive experience on tv and PC
15:51:31 <eliot> ...final example is ad insertion
15:51:42 <eliot> ...ability to get video content locally
15:51:56 <kliehm> s/smiles/SMIL (Synchronized Multimedia Integration Language)/
15:52:04 <eliot> ...cues sent down that tell you to run a local ad. maybe different for different users. allows targeted ads.
15:52:11 <mav> URL for ad insertion: http://www.scte.org/documents/pdf/standards/ANSI_SCTE%2035%202007%20Digital%20Program%20Insertion%20Cueing%20Message%20for%20Cable.pdf
15:52:12 <eliot> Janina: can locate to a degree by IP
15:52:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
15:52:27 <eliot> Paul: are you asking if it's currently supported?
15:52:41 <eliot> janina: it comes from wherever it comes from
15:52:57 <eliot> MV: the first three could be supported but I am not sure
15:53:26 <eliot> There's a scheduler at the networl levey. with a special size
15:53:48 <eliot> s networl levey/network level
15:53:58 <eliot> OA: the red button on England
15:54:10 <eliot> MV: it's the activation in the UK
15:54:36 <eliot> ....w/ the key definitions they're talking about adding to CSS spec, you'd have support forthe red button
15:54:48 <eliot> ...red button loads the app associated at that time with that channel
15:54:57 <eliot> ....some apps have no screen events
15:55:13 <eliot> ...but some things want to be synchronized, like a game or an ad
15:55:32 <eliot> ...so after you load the app, it needs to listen to a timetrack for these messages
15:56:41 <eliot> ....not sure how to do the fourth one...client-side ad insertions
15:56:54 <eliot> DS: sounds like a delivery issue, rather than HTML issue
15:58:12 <eliot> MV: is time tracks the right place to put those URLs?
15:58:32 <eliot> DS: if it's interstitial you can use the media format
15:59:03 <eliot> ....if it's parallel use time metadata
15:59:23 <eliot> MV: TV content rating codes
15:59:39 <eliot> paul: are you expecting UA to respect that as well
15:59:45 <eliot> MV: that's an issue of law
16:00:02 <eliot> paul: any different than subtitles?
16:00:08 <eliot> MV: a lot less data
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16:00:35 <eliot> MV: does the API work right so I don't get 60 hits a minute
16:00:53 <eliot> ....it only changes when it changes.
16:01:12 <eliot> Janiina: wouldn't solution just be "What's the current value?"
16:01:21 <eliot> MV: a callback when it changes would be good
16:02:15 <eliot> DavidC:initiative to specify how to access this info: the open IPTV forum
16:02:27 <eliot> ....message is triggered every time there's a change
16:02:41 <MikeSmith> -> http://www.openiptvforum.org/specifications.html Open IPTV Forum specs
16:02:49 <eliot> MV: an API that says "Access this control,"  or something.
16:03:03 <eliot> ...want a media resource specific mapping
16:03:16 <eliot> ...so you can tell anyone, if you want to do this......
16:03:39 <eliot> ...the html5 spec doesn't know anything about tv
16:03:49 <Kai> Kai has joined #html-wg
16:04:36 <eliot> MV: for content rating code, if we map it, but it may be in there, but not the API to tell you when something changes
16:05:17 <eliot> PC: when you want the server to push something to the client...perhaps a potential technology solution is a bidirectional solution
16:06:05 <eliot> MV: I was thinking about two parallel bands. Doing it out of band, well, the data's not sent like that. And you may have latency
16:06:26 <eliot> DavidC: the broadcaster has  a very short delay.
16:06:44 <eliot> AO: If you're using multicast, you won't want a 1:1
16:07:10 <eliot> MV: clientside ad insertion, soulds like the way DS described it mat be a way to do it
16:07:16 <eliot> DS: local video?
16:07:42 <eliot> MV: sometimes it is done using local video, but as you said it doesn't matter what server it comes from
16:07:55 <eliot> ...MV: that's it
16:08:07 <eliot> rssagent, make minutes
16:08:32 <eliot> rrsagent, make minutes
16:08:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html eliot
16:10:03 <eliot> MV: will there be best practices?
16:10:13 <eliot> PC: sometimes individuals will make a primer
16:10:46 <eliot> PC: may be another group in w3c that's already working on it
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16:11:45 <eliot> ...I personally think that one thing that's going to happen is that there will be a fair number of comments asking if "I can do X" and I suspect that we will take it off line and say yes. If we say no, the challenge is how they'll respond.
16:11:57 <eliot> MV: and for the one issue, should I submit a bug?
16:12:14 <eliot> PC: Yes, but realize that we are in LC bugs right now. Earlier is better.
16:12:41 <eliot> rrsagent, make minutes
16:12:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html eliot
16:13:06 <davidC> This topic may fit in the Web and Tv charter: http://www.w3.org/2010/09/webTVIGcharter.html
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16:21:50 <kliehm> TOPIC: Limited Devices
16:23:15 <MikeSmith> Fukuno-san speaking
16:23:22 <MikeSmith> Taisuke Fukuno
16:23:39 <MikeSmith> TF: as a developers, we want to create apps for all devices
16:23:52 <MikeSmith> … but not all mobile handsets can support full HTML5
16:24:17 <MikeSmith> TF: people don't change their mobile handsets very often
16:24:27 <MikeSmith> … the hang on to them for a few years
16:24:42 <MikeSmith> TF: we want to produce a downloadable browser
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16:25:18 <oedipus_away> HTML5 basic like XHTML Basic?
16:25:46 <MikeSmith> … because of resource limitations on these devices, we need to consider something like Compact HTML
16:25:54 <MikeSmith> Paul Cotton
16:26:09 <MikeSmith> PC: I bet there are a bunch of people in the room who don't want to do this at all
16:27:08 <MikeSmith> … we have people in this room who have mobile devices that are [marketed as "HTML5" devices]
16:27:50 <MikeSmith> PC: there will be devices for which are capable of running all features from HTML5, some that have no hope of running many features from HTML5, and some in between
16:27:50 <Ileana> q+
16:28:01 <MikeSmith> Dave Singer
16:28:22 <mav> q+
16:28:30 <MikeSmith> DS: we have spent a lot of time at the W3C on promoting the idea of "One Web"
16:28:46 <MikeSmith> … and we have seen [profiling efforts in the past not work out]
16:28:51 <oedipus_away> wonders if the windows phone will force non-sighted users to use Narrator
16:29:22 <oedipus_away> Narrator ain't VoiceOver...
16:29:38 <MikeSmith> AO: you sometimes have mobile devices that don't have normal buttons, you want to use them while driving, etc.
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16:30:07 <MikeSmith> … [there is some overlap with accessibility needs]
16:30:15 <MikeSmith> q?
16:30:17 <MikeSmith> q+
16:30:26 <kliehm> q+
16:30:35 <MikeSmith> PC: I spoke with a rep from LG
16:31:25 <MikeSmith> … and it was about how it would be preferable to have a video codec specified in HTML5
16:32:09 <Ileana> q+
16:32:14 <MikeSmith> … and I pointed out that the TV industry could decide on a profile of HTML the did mandate a particular video codec
16:32:35 <MikeSmith> … so we would end up with vertical standards
16:32:44 <MikeSmith> … but you are unlikely to see W3C do that
16:33:11 <MikeSmith> … not saying that W3C will not do that for sure
16:33:23 <kliehm> ack Il
16:33:27 <dsinger> q?
16:33:33 <paulc> ack mav
16:34:01 <kliehm> q?
16:34:07 <MikeSmith> MV: We are working on such a vertical standard
16:34:18 <MikeSmith> … e.g., adding encryption and DRM
16:34:19 <kliehm> q+ Ileana
16:34:34 <MikeSmith> MV: I have been hearing the same think about the cost issue
16:34:40 <MikeSmith> … footprint issue
16:34:50 <MikeSmith> MV: the range of connected TVs
16:35:17 <MikeSmith> … lower end TVs vs connected TVs
16:35:37 <MikeSmith> MV: could be a matter of just waiting
16:36:12 <MikeSmith> MV: the low-end devices just have set functions
16:36:55 <MikeSmith> MV: have discussed how they might develop by using a subset of HTML5
16:37:20 <MikeSmith> MV: they are currently using non-standard drawing APIs
16:37:41 <MikeSmith> … but they could be developing using the HTML5 canvas element
16:37:52 <eliot> q+
16:38:01 <MikeSmith> … which would make them upwardly compatible
16:38:15 <MikeSmith> MV: JS+<canvas>
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16:38:43 <MikeSmith> AO: another proof that accessible <canvas> is important
16:38:43 <paulc> ack Ileana
16:39:14 <oedipus_away> strong plus 1 to AO -- canvas a11y needs to be addressed before HTML5 deployed in TVs and other devices
16:39:27 <MikeSmith> Ileana: there is an opportunity to create a profile
16:40:05 <MikeSmith> … maybe you don't want to say "profiling"
16:40:14 <MikeSmith> … but instead just define the basic elements
16:40:31 <kliehm> q?
16:40:41 <paulc> ack MikeSMith
16:40:45 <taisukef_> q?
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16:42:50 <paulc> q+
16:43:26 <richardschwerdtfe> tried to call in - conference is restricted
16:43:32 <richardschwerdtfe> sigh
16:44:13 <Ileana> q+
16:44:24 <paulc> ack kliehm
16:44:54 <MikeSmith> KS: the feedback we got from vendors in the Asian market was that [the profiles we were developing] were not up to date with the current device capabilities
16:45:15 <MikeSmith> MK: we find that there are 3 broad classes of devices
16:45:21 <richardschwerdtfe> no luck getting in
16:45:29 <richardschwerdtfe> oh well - back to processing aria comments
16:46:10 <MikeSmith> MK: I wonder if there is a use-case for "lo-fi" HTML5-capable phones … limited profile, just for, e.g., gaming
16:46:14 <MikeSmith> q?
16:46:17 <mav> q+
16:46:20 <paulc> ack eliot
16:46:26 <eliot> http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/mobilweb
16:46:51 <MikeSmith> EG: I think this is an authoring issue
16:47:17 <MikeSmith> EG: not sure what you are asking for from the WG
16:47:38 <MikeSmith> PC: problem is, there are some devices that HTML5 [content] won't run on
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16:47:53 <MikeSmith> AO: simple example: several video elements on a page
16:48:04 <MikeSmith> q?
16:48:17 <kliehm> AO: only one decode
16:48:18 <MikeSmith> PC: for the last 7 or 8 years, I have been involved with WSI
16:48:28 <kliehm> s/decode/decoder/
16:48:30 <MikeSmith> … = Web Services Interoperability
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16:49:28 <MikeSmith> … we don't purport that the profiles we developed for WSI were appropriate for everybody
16:49:34 <MikeSmith> … they are aimed at developers
16:49:46 <MikeSmith> … we chose to not try to define them at W3c
16:50:11 <MikeSmith> … W3C does not have the vertical expertise to write all the vertical profiles
16:50:20 <MikeSmith> … I thin there is nothing wrong with that
16:50:32 <MikeSmith> … can take the "generic" W3C spec
16:50:54 <MikeSmith> … [and build a vertical profile from it that meets your market needs]
16:51:21 <MikeSmith> PC: of course if you find mistakes, you can bring that info back
16:51:37 <dsinger> q+
16:51:45 <kliehm> ack paul
16:51:46 <MikeSmith> PC: don't expect those profiles to be done at the W3C
16:51:46 <paulc> ack paulc
16:51:57 <paulc> ack Ileana
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16:52:04 <MikeSmith> PC: instead expect them to be done by the domain experts, elsewhere
16:52:12 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:52:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
16:52:52 <MikeSmith> Ileana: I know there are mobile operators here at W3C who are here in part because they are interested in this area
16:53:21 <MikeSmith> … this is the kind of thing that is needed for 70% or 80% of the market
16:53:40 <paulc> q+
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16:54:22 <MikeSmith> Ileana: I think there is expertise at W3C to address the needs of the mobile market
16:54:39 <MikeSmith> … the W3C needs to have a clear message about this
16:54:41 <MikeSmith> q?
16:54:52 <paulc> ack mav
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16:55:14 <MikeSmith> MV: subsetting HTML itself is really problematic
16:55:30 <MikeSmith> … but there is a case where the W3C may be more interested
16:55:42 <MikeSmith> … canvas is one of those cases
16:56:01 <MikeSmith> … the canvas environment is a separate world
16:56:16 <MikeSmith> … it is a procedural world, rather than a declarative world
16:57:09 <MikeSmith> … thin layer on top of graphics capabilities that are already on the devicdes
16:57:46 <paulc> ack dsinger
16:57:48 <MikeSmith> … and there are already all kinds of such non-standard thin layers for graphics that are doing this
16:57:59 <taisukef_> How will I enter te queue?
16:58:12 <MikeSmith> q+ taisukef_ 
16:58:40 <MikeSmith> MV: but JS+canvas could be the standard way to make this thin layer for graphics
16:58:41 <taisukef_> thanks!
16:58:43 <taisukef_> q+
16:59:08 <MikeSmith> DS: what features do we need in CSS and HTML to be sensitive toward needs of limited devices
16:59:10 <paulc> ack Paulc
16:59:16 <MikeSmith> q?
16:59:29 <MikeSmith> PC: example I gave was outside of W3C
16:59:36 <MikeSmith> … but it could be done within the W3C
16:59:52 <MikeSmith> … just as well as it could be done outside
17:00:30 <MikeSmith> PC: but [we in this HTML WG] have a priority to just get the core spec done
17:00:40 <MikeSmith> … and then others can create profiles
17:01:13 <MikeSmith> PC: so we should be careful not to tell interested parties to go somewhere else
17:01:42 <mav> q+artur
17:01:46 <MikeSmith> Ileana: Somebody has to find the best organizational environment where this kind of work to take place
17:01:56 <MikeSmith> q?
17:02:14 <davidC> +1 on paul : profiling is already ongoing, and many of us are here to make sure the spec is delivered in time
17:02:23 <MikeSmith> PC: I don't thin you are going to get that resolution from the HTML WG
17:02:56 <MikeSmith> PC: there are people on both sides of this argument
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17:03:06 <paulc> ack taisukef
17:03:35 <MikeSmith> TF: HTML5 does not need guidelines or profiles
17:04:45 <MikeSmith> TF: HTML5 is core, but video, canvas, CSS are "extensible" [maybe means "extensions on top of HTML"?]
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17:05:30 <MikeSmith> PC: if people want us to "teir" the HTML5 spec like this, then a good time to do that would be when we go into testing
17:05:42 <MikeSmith> PC: so there is some synergy here
17:06:15 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:06:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
17:06:25 <MikeSmith> q?
17:06:31 <paulc> ack artur
17:07:06 <MikeSmith> AO: canvas will be misused…
17:07:26 <MikeSmith> … I would appreciate that if profiles are being done, that they get done within the W3C
17:07:44 <MikeSmith> PC: tomorrow at 11, we have a session on canvas accessibility
17:08:03 <MikeSmith> … and we can discuss this more then
17:08:07 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:08:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
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17:10:41 <oedipus_away> paulc, rich s - the lead on canvas a11y indicated when i pinged him that the canvas slot is a bit too early for him -- could it be adjusted, as it wouldn't make much sense to talk about canvas a11y without him
17:13:47 <oedipus_away> paulc, rich is in the channel -- he is richardschwerdtfe
17:15:59 <oedipus_away> MikeSmith - can you communicate to the chairs that rich s - the lead on canvas a11y - indicated when i pinged him that the canvas slot is a bit too early for him -- could it be adjusted, as it wouldn't make much sense to talk about canvas a11y without him
17:20:22 <MikeSmith> oedipus_away: Paul says we can switch the canvas and ARIA slots
17:20:29 <MikeSmith> would that work?
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17:23:00 <MikeSmith> so canvas would be at 14:00 local time here
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07:41:49 <krisk> Agenda: General Accessibility (part2)
07:41:53 <paulc> rrsagent, make minutes public
07:41:53 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minutes public', paulc.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
07:42:32 <oedipus> zakim, code?
07:42:32 <Zakim> sorry, oedipus, I don't know what conference this is
07:43:26 <paulc> rrsagent, create the minutes
07:43:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
07:43:51 <paulc> Topic: General Accessibility (part 2)
07:44:13 <paulc> scribenick: krisk
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07:44:32 <paulc> We decided to have one long minutes.
07:44:48 <paulc> Thanks.
07:45:07 <paulc> We are still getting setup from a phone call to #html-wg
07:45:34 <MichaelC> zakim, room for 5 for 120 minutes?
07:45:36 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)07:45Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 120 minutes until 0945Z
07:45:44 <MichaelC> zakim, call rhone_3a
07:45:44 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
07:45:45 <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)07:45Z has now started
07:45:56 <eliot> eliot has joined #html-wg
07:46:08 <eliot> Url for change proposals: http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html
07:46:10 <MichaelC> MichaelC has changed the topic to: TPAC 2010: We're in Rhone 3A. Second room (3B) is #html-wg2; zakim code is 26631
07:46:29 <janina> zakim, who's here?
07:46:29 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
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07:46:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see eliot, adrianba, Zakim, cyns, paulc, krisk, weinig, myakura, jaeyeollim, mgylling, kliehm, SGondo, shan, dsinger, mjs, janina, MichaelC, kensaku, oedipus, gavin__,
07:46:35 <Zakim> ... freedom, Marco_Ranon, ormaaj, colinsullivan, arronei, Lachy, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, silvia, Martijnc, inimino, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin,
07:46:39 <krisk> We will start where we left off at issue 31
07:46:39 <Zakim> ... hober, karl, webben, phenny, sideshow, ed, trackbot, RRSAgent, gsnedders, Shunsuke, heycam, Philip, jmb, Jedi, Yudai, drry, hsivonen, jwm
07:46:40 <paulc> issue-31?
07:46:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images -- open
07:46:40 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
07:46:41 <eliot> issue-31?
07:46:42 <trackbot> ISSUE-31 -- Author conformance requirements for the alt attribute on images -- open
07:46:42 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
07:46:43 <oedipus> present+ Gregory_Rosmaita
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07:47:39 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, make minutes
07:47:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MikeSmith
07:47:58 <oedipus> conf code is 26631
07:48:23 <MikeSmith> Zakim, who's on the phone?
07:48:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
07:48:41 <MikeSmith> Zakim, call Rhone_3a
07:48:41 <Zakim> ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
07:48:41 <adrianba> zakim, call rhone_3a
07:48:42 <Zakim> ok, adrianba; the call is being made
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07:49:55 <krisk> shelly: we are looking a the change propose for issue 30 - last 2 items
07:50:27 <oedipus> s/shelly:/cynthia:/
07:50:47 <krisk> cyns: next part is to update the definition of the img tag
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07:52:12 <oedipus> alt is not fallback content because it is primary content for those who cannot process images or have image loading turned off
07:52:13 <krisk> cyns: the goal of these updates is to update the concept of fallback
07:52:20 <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510#Details
07:52:35 <krisk> janina: do people object to this?
07:52:36 <oedipus> q+ to say that alt is not fallback content because it is primary content for those who cannot process images or have image loading turned off
07:52:53 <kliehm> s/for issue 30/for issue 31/
07:53:02 <krisk> janina: an image is an image, they are not the same
07:53:06 <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-031
07:53:18 <oedipus> q?
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07:53:49 <kliehm> Cyns prefers http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20100510#With_Suggested_Definition_of_the_Image_Element:
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07:55:55 <davidC> present+ David_Corvoysier
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07:56:00 <krisk> cyns: option #1 is do nothing
07:56:27 <krisk> cyns: optins #2 is 'with suggest definition of the image element'
07:56:41 <krisk> s/optins/option/
07:56:42 <cyns> An img element represents an image.
07:56:42 <cyns> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content, and the value of the alt attribute is the img element's fallback content.
07:56:53 <cyns> option 1:  Do Nothing.  Current spec text 
07:57:01 <cyns> Option 2: 
07:57:03 <cyns> The <img> element represents content that can be rendered visually (as an image) and textually. The src attribute provides visual content in the form of an image and the alt attribute provides textual content. The content in the src and alt attributes must convey equivalent meaning. 
07:57:31 <cyns> Option 3:
07:57:32 <cyns> An img element represents an image.
07:57:32 <cyns> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content, and the value of the alt attribute is text content that is rendered when the image is not displayed by a User Agent.
07:57:36 <oedipus> ack oe
07:57:36 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say that alt is not fallback content because it is primary content for those who cannot process images or have image loading turned off
07:58:08 <oedipus> GJR
07:58:11 <oedipus> gregory
07:58:26 <krisk> gjr: i prefer option #2
07:58:42 <krisk> cyns: can you (gjr) can you live with option #3?
07:58:57 <oedipus> would prefer wording that says that alt text is equivalent primary content
07:59:10 <krisk> janina: I would prefer option #2
07:59:14 <janina> equivalent text semantec?
07:59:30 <krisk> gjr: I could live with option #3 with a change 
08:00:04 <krisk> paulc: is not the primary question is alt text the primary content?
08:00:17 <oedipus> yes
08:00:31 <eliot> s/ primary content/primary equivalent content
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08:00:48 <krisk> cyns: the issue is fallback
08:00:58 <kliehm> s/is alt text the primary content/is alt text the primary equivalent content/
08:01:10 <krisk> janina: can we solve this w/o primary and fallback?
08:01:22 <oedipus> PROPOSED MODIFIED #3: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content, while the value of the alt attribute is to provide equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is turned off
08:01:44 <oedipus> PROPOSED MODIFIED #3: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is turned off
08:02:13 <dsinger> "or for those to whom images are not displayed"?
08:02:26 <krisk> gfr see the second PROPOSED MODIFIED #3:
08:02:30 <cyns> when are not displayed
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08:02:37 <cyns> when images are unavailable
08:02:58 <krisk> janina: i like the PROPOSED MODIFIED #3:
08:03:04 <oedipus> GJR takes dsinger's suggestion as a friendly ammendment 
08:03:19 <wonsuk> Present+ Wonsuk_Lee
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08:03:51 <krisk> cyns: do we want the first sentence?
08:04:11 <cyns> An img element represents an image.
08:04:21 <cyns> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is turned off
08:04:34 <oedipus> plus 1 to cyns
08:04:40 <krisk> janina: let we like this as a group?
08:05:10 <krisk> paulc: what I am hearing - we have 3 intial proposals
08:05:24 <cyns> the image given by the src attibute is the embedded contont; the value of the alt attributge provides equivalen content when images are unavailable
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08:05:31 <krisk> paulc: now we are comming up with 2 new proposals
08:05:51 <krisk> Option #1 is 'the image given by the src attibute is the embedded contont; the value of the alt attributge provides equivalen content when images are unavailable'
08:06:07 <krisk> cyns: removes the 'for whole'
08:06:59 <krisk> gjr: asks for minor change
08:07:09 <cyns> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content when images are not displayed
08:07:18 <oedipus> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is disabled
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08:07:35 <krisk> cyns: note that we will still keep the first sentence
08:07:55 <oedipus> The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is disabled
08:07:58 <krisk> Option 2: is change nothing
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08:08:15 <krisk> cyns: do we agree to take #1
08:08:39 <oedipus> slight amendment: The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is disabled
08:09:43 <krisk> so new Option #1 is 'The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or for whom image loading is disabled'
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08:10:16 <krisk> cyns: either is fine
08:11:07 <krisk> cyns: we need someone to write the change proposal 
08:11:22 <krisk> cyns: can you do the change proposal?
08:11:42 <oedipus> trackbot, status?
08:12:35 <krisk> action: gregory to draft a change proposal to issue 31 to update the definition of img element
08:12:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-194 - Draft a change proposal to issue 31 to update the definition of img element [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-11-12].
08:12:58 <krisk> janina: Ok - lets move on to item #80
08:13:06 <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
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08:13:21 <krisk> paulc: by definition this action items are due in a week
08:13:39 <krisk> paulc: so it should be on the agenda for the next meeting
08:13:54 <oedipus> issue-80?
08:13:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-80 -- document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content -- open
08:13:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80
08:14:24 <krisk> cyns: reading  http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80 to the group
08:14:50 <Marco_Ranon> Present+ Marco_Ranon
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08:15:09 <Marco_Ranon> hi Gregory
08:15:12 <janina> q?
08:15:48 <oedipus> "2 courses of action could remedy this: 1. require that browsers display the title attribute content on an image when the image is not available or in a device indpendent manner. 2. remove the the text "The title attribute is present and has a non-empty value." from http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-0.html"
08:16:01 <janina> q?
08:16:03 <cyns> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElement20091203
08:16:03 <oedipus> related bug: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7362
08:16:17 <krisk> janina: gjr do you want to speak to this?
08:16:56 <krisk> cyns: I think the action would be to either A) close issue #80
08:17:39 <krisk> the second action would be to B) add title to the change proposal
08:18:03 <krisk> cyns: does anyone object to these two items?
08:18:24 <oedipus> GJR: title is supplemental information, alt is equivalent information (or an attempt at equivalency)
08:18:35 <krisk> janina: I am concerned is title a reasonable alt information
08:18:41 <krisk> paulc: two issues
08:18:49 <oedipus> q+ to say title is for supplemental information, alt is equivalent information (or an attempt at equivalency)
08:18:55 <krisk> paulc: #1 how often do people use title
08:19:12 <oedipus> q?
08:19:30 <krisk> paulc: #2 when people do - is the title enough?
08:19:35 <oedipus> q?
08:19:47 <oedipus> ack oe
08:19:47 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say title is for supplemental information, alt is equivalent information (or an attempt at equivalency)
08:19:53 <kliehm> q+
08:20:02 <krisk> dsinger: it seems that this is a really a UA not a conformance requirement
08:20:49 <Marco_Ranon> +1 to GRJ, but fall back support is not consistent across AT
08:21:03 <oedipus> good point, marco
08:21:13 <oedipus> ack kl
08:21:14 <krisk> gjr: most screen readers have this type of fallback object
08:21:31 <artur> q+
08:21:35 <janina> q?
08:21:55 <kliehm> ack ar
08:22:03 <oedipus> s/fallback object/fallback cascade model (when encounter image use alt, if no alt, labelledby, if no labelledby title, if no title filename/
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08:22:34 <krisk> cyns: with fallback you can end up with duplicate information being presented, which is a poor experience
08:22:46 <janina> q?
08:23:36 <artur> q-
08:23:48 <oedipus> note: many screen readers offer discrete control over images and images-used-as-links so that one could grab hyperlink text over @alt if that is what they user desires
08:24:14 <kliehm> scribenick: kliehm
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08:24:25 <kliehm> scribe: Martin_Kliehm
08:26:13 <kliehm> cyns: There are two ways AT gets accessibility information: from the DOM and from the browsers. Currently title is map to the accessibility API. If title is not considered a suitable equivalent we would need to remove it from the accessibility API.
08:27:49 <kliehm> janina: we wouldn't want title as a conforming alternative for image content.
08:27:51 <oedipus> plus 1 to Janina - don't want "title" used as equivalent or fallback text, but supplementary meta-data about the object
08:28:21 <oedipus> s/text, but supplementary/but for supplementary/
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08:28:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
08:28:48 <kliehm> s/title is map/title is mapped/
08:29:00 <cyns> The change proposal we resolved to draft yesterday to address teh conformance part of issue 31, which was to include the broadest possible set of text equivalents, will not include @title
08:29:20 <cyns> That change proposal will also address issue 80.
08:29:33 <kliehm> s/teh conformance part/the conformance part/
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08:30:14 <kliehm> janina, cyns: disagreement?
08:30:49 <cyns> If that change proposal is accepted, it implies a change to the HTML to Accessibility API mappings document such that @title would never map to accessible name
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08:31:37 <kliehm> janina: remaining items 123, 184
08:31:53 <kliehm> s/123/122/
08:31:53 <oedipus> issue-123?
08:31:53 <trackbot> ISSUE-123 -- Autofocus attribute security concerns -- closed
08:31:53 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/123
08:32:03 <oedipus> issue-122?
08:32:03 <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
08:32:03 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
08:32:45 <janina> q?
08:32:51 <kliehm> cyns: The "Lady of Shalott" example in the alt techniques document is disputed. It has been argued that it's improperly labeled, and that the image should be considered purely decorative rather than "enhance[ing] the themes or subject matter of the page content", and that it should be given empty alt text rather than a brief description. The scope of this issue is the Lady of Shalott...
08:32:52 <kliehm> ...example, and in particular, the alt text used in it, the description of this example, and any other closely related matters.
08:33:01 <oedipus> related bug 1: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9077
08:33:08 <kliehm> cyns: change proposal #1: do nothing
08:33:13 <oedipus> related bug 2: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9081
08:33:33 <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-122
08:33:59 <paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0393.html
08:34:04 <kliehm> paulc: the chairs issued a call for counter proposals last week
08:34:28 <kliehm> oedipus: the Lady of Shalott example is used several times in the document.
08:34:45 <kliehm> cyns: I think the example does the job
08:34:56 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques
08:35:40 <kliehm> paulc: Deadline is November 27 for alternate or counter proposals. It also implies to the document.
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08:37:31 <paulc> Here is the end of the -122 thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Oct/0404.html
08:37:55 <kliehm> paulc: If anybody wants to adopt Issue-122 and needs more time the chairs would extend the deadline.
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08:40:03 <kliehm> cyns: there were three survey options from yesterday's meeting
08:41:04 <oedipus> in editor's draft the entirty of 4.8.1.1.1 General guidelines is "ISSUE-31 (alt-conformance-requirements) blocks progress to Last Call"
08:41:27 <kliehm> paulc: I suggest taking the thread from the HTML list and putting it on the TF list
08:41:57 <kliehm> janina: putting discussion of the "Lady of Shalott" example on the TF agenda for next week
08:42:05 <oedipus> paulc, cyns, janina - the lady of shallot example follows the text "Examples where the image is purely decorative despite being relevant would include things like a photo of the Black Rock City landscape in a blog post about an event at Burning Man, or an image of a painting inspired by a poem, on a page reciting that poem. The following snippet shows an example of the latter case (only the...
08:42:07 <oedipus> ...first verse is included in this snippet)" in http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element
08:42:08 <kliehm> issue-133?
08:42:08 <trackbot> ISSUE-133 -- Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) -- raised
08:42:08 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
08:42:44 <kliehm> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10645
08:43:46 <oedipus> q+ what i think we need for issue 180 is to get the lady of shallott example out of http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element and replace example with code illustrating one of hixie's prose examples, like a photo of black rock city
08:43:58 <oedipus> q+ to say what i think we need for issue 180 is to get the lady of shallott example out of http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element and replace example with code illustrating one of hixie's prose examples, like a photo of black rock city
08:44:41 <janina> q?
08:45:07 <kliehm> cyns: Modal dialogs are usually created by JavaScript. Accessibility might be added with ARIA, but it depends on the author.
08:45:12 <oedipus> ack me
08:45:12 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say what i think we need for issue 180 is to get the lady of shallott example out of http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/embedded-content-1.html#the-img-element and
08:45:16 <Zakim> ... replace example with code illustrating one of hixie's prose examples, like a photo of black rock city
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08:47:10 <kliehm> oedipus: propopsing to write another example that will be posted to the a11y TF list
08:47:23 <kliehm> q+
08:50:24 <kliehm> kliehm, janina: there's consensus that modal is necessary, the question is whether we want to wait
08:50:27 <kliehm> ack k
08:51:00 <kliehm> paulc: since the bug has been escalated somebody doesn't want to wait
08:51:14 <kliehm> (tracker issue has been added by Steve Faulkner)
08:51:50 <oedipus> paulc, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0072.html
08:51:54 <kliehm> cyns: adding text to the spec doesn't seem to be that difficult, but implementing might be
08:53:51 <oedipus> issue-80: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0071.html
08:53:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-80 document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content notes added
08:53:58 <kliehm> paulc: pinging Everett Zufelt to write a change proposal
08:54:07 <oedipus> issue-80: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0072.html
08:54:07 <trackbot> ISSUE-80 document conformance and device dependent display of title attribute content notes added
08:54:27 <kliehm> janina: putting issue 133 on the agenda of next week's call
08:54:31 <kliehm> issue-134?
08:54:31 <trackbot> ISSUE-134 -- Provide tablist and tab states for menu and command elements respectively -- raised
08:54:31 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134
08:55:47 <oedipus> issue-180: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0071.html
08:55:47 <trackbot> Sorry... adding notes to ISSUE-180 failed, please let sysreq know about it
08:56:05 <oedipus> issue-180: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0072.html
08:56:05 <trackbot> Sorry... adding notes to ISSUE-180 failed, please let sysreq know about it
08:57:14 <oedipus> ACTION: Gregory - propose replacement example for lady of shallot example of purely decorative use of image with code example of one of the use cases provided in prose introducing the example
08:57:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-195 - - propose replacement example for lady of shallot example of purely decorative use of image with code example of one of the use cases provided in prose introducing the example [on Gregory Rosmaita - due 2010-11-12].
08:58:29 <kliehm> cyns: I would support a change proposal, but I think there are more urgent priorities.
08:58:57 <kliehm> paulc: pinging Everett to provide a use case
08:59:50 <oedipus> issue-122: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0071.html
08:59:50 <trackbot> ISSUE-122 alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example notes added
08:59:51 <cyns> topic:  bug review
08:59:57 <oedipus> issue-122: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Nov/0072.html
08:59:57 <trackbot> ISSUE-122 alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example notes added
09:00:58 <oedipus> action-195: this is bound to issue-122 "alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example"
09:00:58 <trackbot> ACTION-195 - propose replacement example for lady of shallot example of purely decorative use of image with code example of one of the use cases provided in prose introducing the example notes added
09:01:23 <cyns> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=8885
09:01:39 <oedipus> issue-122: this is bound to action-195
09:01:39 <trackbot> ISSUE-122 alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example notes added
09:01:41 <cyns> scribenick: cyns
09:02:20 <cyns> opens a larger issue.  No consistent fallback for embedded content, canvas, svg, iframe, etc.
09:02:45 <cyns> mk: If there is fallback content, 
09:03:05 <cyns> mk:  if there is fallback content it is not used for accessiblity, except in teh case of canvas
09:04:06 <cyns> mk:  this bug is entitled embedded content, but gives an example about captioned video.  Ian Hixon made a good point that this was inteded to apply to all elements in the section: audio, canvas, embed, iframe, img, etc
09:04:20 <artur> q+
09:04:28 <cyns> mk:  frank yesterday said there should be accessible fallback content beyond a title attribute or alt text.
09:04:30 <janina> q?
09:05:14 <cyns> ao: the differnce btwn canvas and all the toher elements, is that canvas doesn't have an underlying dom with sematnic inforamtion.  the others do.
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09:05:42 <cyns> ao:  the accessible dom makes canvas more like SVG in that you can navigate the dom to get accessiblity
09:06:29 <cyns> mc: we would like consistent approach to fallbacks between different types of objects.
09:06:42 <cyns> mc:  we haven't come to an opinion about which mechanism we'd like to see
09:07:03 <cyns> mk: should img be able to hold other elements as well?
09:07:25 <cyns> mc:  we'd like that in an ideal world.  object was introduced in html 4 to address this issue, but it never took off
09:08:00 <cyns> mc:  we want direct semantic association of fallbacks, and the ability to differentiate between short and longer, richer fallbacks. 
09:08:16 <cyns> mc: but we also have to synch up with history of what has been implemented, and can be implemented
09:08:40 <cyns> mk: embed, for example, there is fallback content possible, but only for browsers taht don't support the content
09:09:13 <cyns> mc: if you use embed for flash content, users who have flash installed can't access the fallback, even if they can't use the flash content
09:10:59 <cyns> mc:  how important is consistency, and how much attention are we going to pay to backward compatibility, and some of the specifics:  is alt good enough, or do we need richer fallback.  and the issue of long fallbacks (longdesc vs. nested content)
09:12:23 <janina> q?
09:12:33 <janina> q?
09:12:37 <janina> ack ar
09:12:42 <cyns> cs:  not sure that consistency is important enough to justify the difficulty of approaching them.  details are very different, inconsisten in other ways.
09:13:08 <cyns> ao:  some elements already have dom fallback, others need to have it added.  img would be nice, but...
09:13:38 <cyns> js: consistency is almost a little theoretical because the situations are so different.  the notion that workable fallback is available, and that you can get at it is important
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09:14:08 <cyns> mk:  PF asked Gez to file bug in january
09:14:24 <cyns> js: was part of our review
09:15:16 <cyns> cs: PF having filed the bug doesn't mean PF thought it was high priority, jsut part of a broad review
09:15:24 <oedipus> Bug 10853: HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
09:15:38 <cyns> cs: I would be ok with postponing consistency to the next version of html
09:15:50 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
09:16:09 <cyns> mk: consistency is a starting position, but we're not sure that each of these has a workable fallback mechanism.  Ensuring that is important.
09:16:39 <oedipus> i had a wiki page  on a consistent approach to multimedia objects (including object and embed, but can't find it on any of the wikis
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09:17:07 <cyns> cs: action is to do a gap analysis for each element and propose individual bugs
09:17:35 <cyns> cs:  MK, do you own that?  Can someone help him?
09:18:29 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
09:18:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html MichaelC
09:19:20 <cyns> pc: must get this done asap, because ian has Dec 8 deadline
09:19:46 <cyns> mk: bug triage team will take this on.
09:21:24 <oedipus> Bug 10853: HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
09:21:30 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/html/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs
09:22:43 <Julian> Julian has joined #html-wg
09:22:51 <Marco_Ranon> I won't be able to join the meeting for the rest of the day. I might stay on irc tho.
09:23:26 <gavin_> gavin_ has joined #html-wg
09:25:17 <Marco_Ranon> Bye everyone
09:26:12 <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)07:45Z has ended
09:26:13 <Zakim> Attendees were 
09:28:49 <plh> plh has joined #html-wg
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09:35:16 <oedipus> FYI EPUB discussion from room 3B is minuted at: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg2-minutes.html#item05
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09:55:21 <oedipus> ACTION-194: bound to ISSUE-31 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/31
09:55:21 <trackbot> ACTION-194 Draft a change proposal to issue 31 to update the definition of img element notes added
09:59:25 <kliehm> zakim, call Rhone_3A
09:59:25 <Zakim> sorry, kliehm, I don't know what conference this is
10:00:56 <MichaelC> zakim, room for 5 for 90 minutes?
10:00:57 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)10:00Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 90 minutes until 1130Z
10:01:02 <MichaelC> zakim, call rhone_3a
10:01:02 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
10:01:03 <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)10:00Z has now started
10:01:34 <oedipus> zakim, passcode?
10:01:34 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), oedipus
10:02:21 <paulc> Topic: ARIA mappings
10:02:27 <yosuke> yosuke has joined #html-wg
10:03:40 <oedipus> zakim, who is here?
10:03:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
10:03:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see yosuke, mjs, Martijnc, Norm, kohei, plh, gavin_, oedipus, plinss_lyon, kennyluck, anne, fantasai, jun, shepazu, adrianba, sylvaing, homata, taisukef, yuma_1985, artur,
10:03:46 <Zakim> ... kensaku, davidC, wonsuk, seungjae, MikeSmith, Zakim, cyns, paulc, weinig, myakura, mgylling, kliehm, shan, dsinger, janina, MichaelC, freedom, Marco_Ranon, ormaaj,
10:03:48 <jorlow> jorlow has joined #html-wg
10:03:49 <Zakim> ... colinsullivan, arronei, Lachy, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, silvia, inimino, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, phenny, sideshow, ed,
10:03:51 <Zakim> ... trackbot, RRSAgent
10:04:18 <janina> zakim, who's here?
10:04:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
10:04:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see jorlow, yosuke, mjs, Martijnc, Norm, kohei, plh, gavin_, oedipus, plinss_lyon, kennyluck, anne, fantasai, jun, shepazu, adrianba, sylvaing, homata, taisukef,
10:04:23 <Zakim> ... yuma_1985, artur, kensaku, davidC, wonsuk, seungjae, MikeSmith, Zakim, cyns, paulc, weinig, myakura, mgylling, kliehm, shan, dsinger, janina, MichaelC, freedom, Marco_Ranon,
10:04:28 <Zakim> ... ormaaj, colinsullivan, arronei, Lachy, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, silvia, inimino, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, phenny,
10:04:31 <Zakim> ... sideshow, ed, trackbot
10:04:37 <janina> scribe: janina
10:04:41 <Stevef> Stevef has joined #html-wg
10:04:41 <jorlow> jorlow has left #html-wg
10:05:27 <oedipus> present+ Steve_Faulkner
10:06:30 <janina> cyns: Let's look at html - aria mapping bugs
10:06:46 <janina> cyns: will be asking status
10:06:53 <richardschwerdtfe> what is the call in?
10:07:00 <oedipus> zakim, passcode 26631
10:07:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'passcode 26631', oedipus
10:07:04 <janina> zakim, code?
10:07:04 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), janina
10:07:40 <janina> cyns: bug 10450
10:07:47 <hidetaka> hidetaka has joined #html-wg
10:08:07 <richardschwerdtfe> thank you
10:08:44 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450
10:09:17 <janina> martin: issue relates correct identification tab 1 of 4, e.g.
10:09:42 <janina> cyns: reason it's on anchor and not on list is backward compatability
10:10:08 <janina> martin: could work even without js
10:10:18 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450#c19 - hixie's last comment on bug 10450
10:10:31 <janina> sf: this bug resolved
10:10:47 <Julian> Julian has joined #html-wg
10:10:48 <oedipus> hixie: "The remaining issue in this bug therefore seems to be handled by bug 10919. I'll fix it there and am returning this bug to the FIXED state as per comment 1."
10:10:51 <janina> cyns: 10903
10:11:02 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10903
10:11:03 <janina> cyns controversary?
10:11:26 <janina> cyns: waiting for resolution of issue-129 before making spec changes
10:11:36 <oedipus> steve logged as issue-129 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
10:12:03 <oedipus> hixie: "Since this is the topic of an ongoing working group issue, I'll wait until the chairs have resolved the relevant issue before making any changes here."
10:12:10 <adam> adam has joined #html-wg
10:12:13 <janina> cyns: looking for sense of the room on importance of this introductory text
10:12:29 <janina> rich: why's there an issue with having intro text?
10:12:42 <janina> cyns: agree it should exist, but what's the importance of pushing for it?
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10:12:50 <oedipus> steve's bug report details: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10903#c0
10:13:30 <oedipus> hixie: "Since this is the topic of an ongoing working group issue, I'll wait until the chairs have resolved the relevant issue before making any changes here."
10:13:35 <janina> sf: next action is ian's ...
10:13:46 <janina> s/ian's/editor's/
10:13:56 <oedipus> bug 10903 is bound to issue-129
10:14:06 <oedipus> issue-129?
10:14:06 <trackbot> ISSUE-129 -- replace or modify the ARIA section of the HTML5 spec -- raised
10:14:06 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
10:14:11 <janina> zakim, call janina
10:14:11 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
10:14:56 <janina> cyns: bug 10444
10:15:02 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444
10:15:39 <oedipus> bug 10444 also bound to issue-129 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
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10:16:10 <oedipus> hixie's comment "rejected / see comment 7 [http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444#c7]
10:16:32 <janina> cyns: current status?
10:17:08 <Kai> Kai has joined #html-wg
10:17:25 <janina> cyns: we need to escalate this bug?
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10:18:16 <oedipus> mjs description of bug 10444 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444#c0
10:18:28 <janina> sf: needs chair attention
10:19:20 <janina> sf: perhaps bugs in issue-129 that no longer need action should be removed from issue-129?
10:19:44 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450
10:19:52 <janina> cyns: so to remove 10450, we need consensus that we agree on resolution of 10450
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10:20:07 <paulc> See http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-129
10:20:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
10:20:30 <oedipus> hixie: "Status: Partially Accepted / Change Description: see diff given below / Rationale: I didn't add "presentation", but added the others. If there's a use case for presentation that doesn't involve non-conforming use of these elements, please reopen the bug (or file a new one, if the use case applies to other elements also)."
10:21:30 <janina> paulc: not seeing 10450 on my issue-129 status page
10:21:40 <janina> paulc: go to the table, not the issue itself for current status
10:21:49 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-129
10:22:15 <janina> cyns: need to update
10:22:28 <janina> paulc: issue itself describes the bugs that apply?
10:22:32 <janina> cyns: yes, it should
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10:23:13 <janina> paulc: bug marked fixed, which is why it's not in table
10:23:18 <janina> cyns: we agree? seems yes
10:23:54 <oedipus> hixie: "Status: Partially Accepted / Change Description: see diff given below / Rationale: I didn't add "presentation", but added the others. If there's a use case for presentation that doesn't involve non-conforming use of these elements, please reopen the bug (or file a new one, if the use case applies to other elements also)."
10:23:59 <janina> cyns: presentation is now allowed everywhere, which is why we now consider 10450 fixed
10:24:24 <janina> cyns: without 10444 spec less usable -- strong view
10:24:44 <oedipus> hixie's comment "rejected / see comment 7 [http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444#c7]
10:25:01 <janina> paulc: next step should be to write a change proposal
10:25:13 <janina> cyns: this is included in the larger change proposal, we need to split it out?
10:25:20 <janina> paulc: window closes in 16 days
10:25:22 <oedipus> issue-129 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
10:26:00 <janina> cyns: who's writing spec text on this?
10:26:06 <janina> sf: text is already there
10:26:17 <janina> sf: we need to see whether we agree
10:26:21 <janina> cyns: let's find out now
10:26:36 <janina> sf: looking for text ...
10:27:29 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450#c6
10:28:23 <Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ARIAIntegration
10:29:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
10:29:22 <janina> cyns: let's look at 10448 while steve looks for 10444 text ...
10:29:43 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10448 Consider broadening the set of allowed roles for command elements 
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10:29:53 <janina> cyns: some elements are commands in menu, and not outside of menu tag
10:29:57 <oedipus> bug 10448 marked as "RESOLVED WONTFIX"
10:30:12 <janina> cyns: goal to allow more specific roles when used in a more advanced way
10:30:39 <janina> cyns: peopls frequently use anchor or button as basis for more advanced control, so need aria roles to make role explicit
10:30:55 <janina> cyns: this is very common in the wild
10:31:33 <Stevef> aria change proposal http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5
10:31:36 <janina> cyns: we discussed command interchangeability -- client os often don't understand distinction either -- aria provides repair
10:32:00 <janina> cyns: editor does not agree with this assessment, our proposal has been rejected
10:32:12 <janina> cyns: do we need another separate proposal?
10:32:51 <janina> paulc: chairs firmly believe in divide and conquer. an individual bug is very helpful
10:33:05 <Stevef> 3.2.6 Use of WAI-ARIA Roles, States and Properties in HTML http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5-proposal.html
10:33:20 <janina> cyns: even though we have proposed this change, we should do so again, because the previous proposal was an omnibus?
10:34:08 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/129
10:34:57 <janina> paulc: so, give us a change proposal that deals with all the remaining issues in issue-129
10:35:20 <janina> cyns: so, revise our existing change proposal?
10:35:22 <janina> paulc: yes
10:35:34 <janina> cyns: and remove those that are resolved to our satisfaction?
10:35:36 <janina> paulc: yes
10:36:11 <oedipus> the following bugs are associated with ISSUE-129: Bug 10450 -Allow lists to be used as menus or tab sets http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10450 Bug 10903 -provide an introduction to wai-aria in the wai aria section of the spec http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10903 Bug 10444 -ARIA section does not list elements that have no default role or role restrictions...
10:36:13 <oedipus> ...http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10444 related to Bug 10603 -Clarify what default roles UAs may assign to elements not listed in the ARIA section http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10603 Bug 10448 -Consider broadening the set of allowed roles for command elements http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10448 Bug 10449 -Consider allowing various command-like...
10:36:14 <oedipus> ...ARIA roles for h1-h6 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10449 Bug 10462 -merge ARIA mapping tables and list http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10462 Bug 10481 -Default role of <IMG> should be "img" http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10481 Bug 10493 -"ARIA restricts usage of this role to one per page" is an unclear statement http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug
10:36:17 <oedipus> .cgi?id=10493 Bug 10592 -"h1 to h6 element that does have an hgroup ancestor" not listed in ARIA section http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10592 Bug 10594 -conforming use of various aria attributes not specified http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10594 Bug 8000 - ARIA roles added to the a element should be conforming in HTML5 http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=800
10:36:22 <oedipus> 0 Bug 10478 -modify table, tr and td roles 
10:36:34 <janina> oedipus, you're listing at least one already resolved and removed -- 10450 ...
10:37:39 <oedipus> bugs associated with ISSUE 129 Bug 10450, Bug 10903, Bug 10444, Bug 10603, Bug 10448, Bug 10449, Bug 10462, Bug 10481, Bug 10493, Bug 10592, Bug 10594, Bug 8000, Bug 10478
10:37:40 <Stevef> 3.2.6 Use of WAI-ARIA Roles, States and Properties in HTML http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/misc/HTML5/aria-html5-proposal.html
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10:39:29 <janina> cyns: are there multiple bugs that deal with the organization of this table? can we combine those?
10:39:46 <janina> sf: yes
10:40:00 <oedipus> bug 10462 merge mapping tables and list: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10462
10:40:16 <janina> cyns: 10444 and 10462 about how to present -- we're proposing them in an alphabetized table
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10:40:42 <janina> cyns: those two highly related -- perhaps to survey?
10:41:09 <janina> cyns: anyone think it better to list things that have no default mapping?
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10:41:51 <janina> rich: it may be helpful to say why some don't have default mappings
10:42:05 <janina> rich: perhaps that would explain the overall approach
10:42:20 <janina> cyns: might that alleviate editor's concerns
10:42:27 <janina> rich: don't know
10:42:35 <janina> sf: neither i
10:43:40 <janina> cyns: rejected over maintanance difficulty
10:43:47 <janina> cyns: think we addressing that
10:44:24 <janina> cyns: these two roles about readability of the spec
10:44:44 <janina> cyns: agree that 10444 without 10462 is a problem, but when taken together there's not that problem
10:45:04 <janina> cyns: i'll take the next step on this
10:45:14 <janina> cyns 10448 ...
10:45:18 <janina> cyns about command
10:46:02 <janina> cyns: status is rejected; makes no sense
10:46:12 <janina> cyns: a diference in uderstanding purpose of aria
10:46:18 <oedipus> Q+ to say that in HTML5 spec @role is referred to as being part of aria, when aria explicitly states that @role defined in Role Attribute, not ARIA
10:46:31 <janina> cyns: how do we resolve purpose of aria? this is a consistent problem.
10:46:34 <oedipus> aria: "A WAI-ARIA role is set on an element using a role attribute, similar to the role attribute defined in the Role Attribute [ROLE]."
10:46:56 <oedipus> html5: "Authors may use the ARIA role and aria-* attributes on HTML elements, in accordance with the requirements described in the ARIA specifications, except where these conflict with the strong native semantics described below. These exceptions are intended to prevent authors from making assistive technology products report nonsensical states that do not represent the actual state of the...
10:46:58 <oedipus> ...document. [ARIA]"
10:47:08 <oedipus> q?
10:48:01 <janina> rich: authors will do what authors will do
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10:48:24 <janina> rich: we need a repair opportunity when they misues native html
10:49:17 <janina> artur: there is also used as intended, but aria increases accessibility
10:49:46 <janina> paulc: that's the kind of technical rationale that need to be presented in rebuttal
10:50:20 <janina> paulc: simply say "we want this changed for the following reason," and give the reason plus the use case.
10:50:27 <janina> cyns: and address those in the change proposal
10:50:31 <janina> paulc: yes
10:50:34 <janina> sf: we've done that
10:50:44 <janina> rich: yes, but was ignored
10:50:59 <janina> paulc: resolution of a bug?
10:51:02 <janina> rich: yes
10:51:09 <oedipus> q-
10:51:30 <janina> paulc: so now we're talking about resolution of an issue, not a bug. But, do provide the rationale and use cases, because that helps should it go to survey
10:52:42 <janina> cyns: sounds like to take discussion on bug, artur's example, and add to proposal
10:52:56 <Stevef> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAonanchor
10:52:57 <janina> cyns: steve?
10:53:00 <janina> sf: would want help with it
10:56:39 <oedipus> @role used on http://www.accessibletwitter.com
10:57:15 <oedipus> what hixie calls "self-styled accessibility experts"?
10:57:25 <janina> paulc: a rationale that appeals to expertise isn't acceptable; nor is tha ttitude that "i don't want to do it" from the editor
10:57:52 <janina> paulc: provide the rationale and use case of why
10:57:54 <oedipus> hixie has dismissed a lot of input by what hecalls "self-styled accessibility experts" even on things that come from the TF
10:58:06 <janina> rich: editor says "show me where it's been implemented"
10:58:32 <janina> paulc: should standards lead or follow was the analog of this question at the plennary
10:58:47 <janina> paulc: it's the chair's job here to find consensus on this question with this issue
10:59:00 <Stevef> Guiding factors for decisions on ARIA Role use:  http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ARIAinHTML5#Guiding_factors_for_decisions_on_ARIA_Role_use:
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10:59:48 <janina> sf: is this principals approach sufficient, or do we need to go role by role
11:00:13 <janina> paulc: sounds systematic and probably will have someone argue against
11:00:26 <janina> paulc: looks necessary, but can't guarantee it's sufficient
11:00:49 <janina> cyns: a different question -- about effectiveness
11:01:07 <janina> cyns: would individual change proposals for individual bugs be more effective?
11:01:19 <janina> paulc: whatever gets the november date is the best answer
11:01:35 <jun> jun has joined #html-wg
11:02:52 <janina> paulc: suggest concentrate on meeting the deadline, and ask this later
11:03:11 <janina> paulc: be clear which text is associated with which bug
11:03:46 <MikeSmith> issue-27?
11:03:46 <trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- @rel value ownership, registry consideration -- open
11:03:46 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/27
11:04:24 <janina> cyns: so guiding factor -- particularly on command -- very important because editor isn't understanding why we picked those
11:04:45 <janina> cyns: I'll take this one 10448
11:06:10 <janina> paulc: main reason for writing an omnibus change proposal is that there's overlap -- let's worry about the disentaglement later
11:06:12 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html oedipus
11:06:46 <janina> paulc: if proposal says a need for 1, b need for 2 & 3, c needed for 4-6; that's what helps chairs
11:06:57 <janina> cyns bug 10449
11:07:09 <janina> cyns: roles for h1-h6
11:07:44 <janina> rich: we showed how these could be used like buttons ...
11:08:04 <janina> rich: we've seen this from the wild
11:08:55 <janina> rich: our argument is that a header can be repurposed through js; and we need the ability to repair to convey intent
11:09:08 <oedipus> IE8 uses a button defined as a header in "friendly" failure methods
11:09:19 <janina> cyns: one side says "authors do this," other side says "they shouldn't."
11:09:28 <oedipus> s/failure methods/failure messages/
11:09:53 <janina> cyns: is this rich's proposal
11:09:55 <janina> rich: yes
11:10:14 <janina> rich: right now in escalation
11:10:32 <janina> cyns: next step is to update proposal for the decision, needs to be done by 21st
11:11:33 <janina> cyns: we're updating our omnibus change proposal to include only bugs unresolved, and to insure clear rationale and use cases -- by 21st
11:11:34 <artur> example of using <h3/> for (WAI-ARIA) collapsable menus: http://test.cita.illinois.edu/aria/
11:11:40 <oedipus> agenda: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/TPAC_2010_Agenda
11:11:43 <janina> cyns: can you do this part by then, rich?
11:11:45 <janina> rich: yes
11:11:48 <MikeSmith> trackbot, help
11:11:48 <trackbot> See http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
11:12:37 <MikeSmith> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg2
11:12:37 <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg2...
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11:12:37 <janina> action: rich to update change proposal re bu 10449
11:12:37 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
11:12:53 <janina> action cyns to update change proposal for bug 10448
11:12:53 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
11:13:15 <oedipus> actoin: cyns to update change proposal for bug 10448
11:13:20 <oedipus> action: cyns to update change proposal for bug 10448
11:13:20 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
11:13:37 <janina> action: steve to update change proposal for bugs 10444 and 10462
11:13:37 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
11:13:51 <janina> cyns: 10481.
11:14:20 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10481
11:14:33 <janina> cyns: we want img to map to aria img -- backwards compatibility rationale
11:15:14 <janina> cyns: have a hard time understanding editor's response
11:16:19 <janina> cyns: who owns?
11:16:33 <janina> action: steve to update change proposal for bug 10481
11:16:33 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
11:16:35 <oedipus> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg
11:16:35 <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg...
11:18:11 <janina> cyns: 10493
11:18:46 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10493 "ARIA restricts usage of this role to one per page" is an unclear statement
11:18:54 <janina> sf: header, footer ...
11:19:10 <janina> sf: not highest priority
11:19:41 <janina> cyns: about about mismatches between numbers allowed by html vs aria?
11:19:44 <oedipus> editor's response to bug 10493: "Status: Partially Accepted / Change Description: see diff given below / Rationale: I just removed the parentheticals altogether, since they were a bit out of place... everything in ARIA has restrictions, it was a bit weird just to call these out specifically."
11:20:16 <janina> cyns: if we let this stand, how bad is that?
11:20:23 <oedipus> steve requested clarification, and hixie responded by removing the section
11:20:34 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10493#c3
11:20:53 <janina> cyns: suggest we let this one stand
11:21:04 <janina> sf: yes
11:22:08 <janina> paulc: clearly say this bug is ok
11:22:42 <janina> cyns: also a bugzilla task to accept the resolution
11:22:45 <janina> aulc: yes
11:22:49 <janina> cyns: 10592
11:23:04 <janina> cyns: h1-h6 without ancestor
11:23:27 <oedipus>  http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10493#c3 ""h1 to h6 element that does have an hgroup ancestor" not listed in ARIA section"
11:23:55 <oedipus> CORRECTION:  http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10592 ""h1 to h6 element that does have an hgroup ancestor" not listed in ARIA section"
11:25:34 <janina> rich: does h-group take a label?
11:25:38 <janina> cyns: no, name from chn
11:26:22 <janina> action: steve to updage change proposal on bug 10592
11:26:22 <trackbot> Created ACTION-197 - Updage change proposal on bug 10592 [on Steve Faulkner - due 2010-11-12].
11:26:24 <oedipus> steve asked how the semantics of the following be exposed: <hgroup><h1>heading</h1><h2>subheading</h2></hgroup>
11:26:29 <janina> cyns: 10594
11:26:37 <janina> cyns: hidden, grabed and invalid
11:27:03 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10594 conforming use of various aria attributes not specified
11:28:14 <janina> cyns: do you have proposed spec text?
11:28:15 <janina> sf: yes
11:28:37 <janina> cyns: editor didn't know what to write -- or that long text belongs here
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11:29:48 <janina> action: steve to updage change proposal for bug 10594
11:29:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-198 - Updage change proposal for bug 10594 [on Steve Faulkner - due 2010-11-12].
11:29:55 <janina> cyns: 10603
11:30:15 <janina> cyns: what default roles may be assigned 
11:30:16 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10603
11:30:21 <janina> cyns: things missing from the table
11:30:26 <janina> cyns: related to 10444 and 10462
11:30:32 <janina> sf: says related
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11:31:26 <janina> cyns: 10903
11:31:30 <janina> cyns: an intro
11:31:56 <janina> cyns: editor is waiting -- so we add to the proposal -- not controversial
11:32:25 <janina> cyns: bug 8000
11:32:38 <janina> cyns: this part of commands -- tied to my action
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11:33:50 <janina> cyns: bug 8000 action to be added to action on 10448
11:34:51 <oedipus> there is a hand-off to the ARIA spec when @role is mentioned in section 3.6.2
11:35:03 <richardschwerdtfe> are we over time?
11:35:04 <janina> sf: we need to look at 10478
11:35:11 <oedipus> @role is not included in the list of HTML5 attributes
11:35:26 <janina> cyns: you added this to issue-129?
11:35:28 <janina> sf: yes
11:35:43 <janina> cyns: so, first, do we consider this still open?
11:36:16 <oedipus> hixie on 10478: "Status: Accepted / Change Description: see diff given below / Rationale: I gave up trying to understand this."
11:36:58 <janina> sf: i have a problem with th being turned into a button
11:37:18 <janina> cyns: but it seems similar to turning headings into buttons. are we consistent?
11:37:41 <janina> sf: so can have role on any table element -- is that ok?
11:37:44 <janina> cyns: my preference
11:37:54 <janina> rich: people will simply do it
11:38:02 <janina> cyns: think there are legit scenarios for it
11:38:24 <janina> cyns: also undermines our argument on headings to take that up differently
11:38:30 <janina> cyns: we leave this closed.
11:38:38 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
11:38:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html janina
11:39:55 <janina> rich: i remember bug date, but not this date
11:40:25 <janina> cyns: steve, are you ok?
11:40:30 <janina> sf: yes
11:40:36 <janina> sf: most is already done
11:41:01 <janina> cyns: i will be stricter with myself and rich than with steve. we should have draft next week
11:41:07 <janina> rich: let's meet early next week
11:41:21 <janina> cyns: i will writ emine off line, and suggest email by friday next
11:41:51 <oedipus> rich, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0136.html
11:42:10 <oedipus> rich, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0125.html
11:42:25 <janina> rrsagent, make minutes
11:42:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html janina
11:42:49 <oedipus> timeline to last call: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Sep/0074.html
11:44:11 <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)10:00Z has ended
11:44:12 <Zakim> Attendees were 
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13:00:54 <MichaelC> zakim, room for 5 for 240 minutes?
13:00:56 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; conference Team_(html-wg)13:00Z scheduled with code 26635 (CONF5) for 240 minutes until 1700Z
13:01:04 <MichaelC> MichaelC has changed the topic to: TPAC 2010: We're in Rhone 3A. Second room (3B) is #html-wg2; zakim code is 26635
13:01:27 <MichaelC> zakim, call rhone_3a
13:01:27 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC; the call is being made
13:01:28 <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)13:00Z has now started
13:01:52 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
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13:01:58 <richardschwerdtfe> what is the passcode?
13:02:10 <oedipus> 26635
13:02:55 <janina> zakim, who's here?
13:02:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
13:02:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see adam, anne, mjs, SGondo, homata, yuma_1985, davidb, hidetaka, myakura, shepazu, aroben, laplink, jun, oedipus, Lachy, Stevef, Martijnc, plh, gavin_, fantasai, wonsuk,
13:03:01 <Zakim> ... MikeSmith, Zakim, mgylling, janina, MichaelC, Marco_Ranon, ormaaj, colinsullivan, arronei, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, inimino, webr3, Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1,
13:03:06 <Zakim> ... gavin, hober, karl, webben, phenny, sideshow, ed, trackbot, RRSAgent, gsnedders, Shunsuke, heycam, Philip, jmb, Jedi, Yudai, drry, hsivonen, jwm
13:03:17 <richardschwerdtfe> i am on
13:03:27 <janina> zakim, this is roam_3a
13:03:27 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I do not see a conference named 'roam_3a' in progress or scheduled at this time
13:03:40 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #html-wg
13:03:51 <freedom> freedom has joined #html-wg
13:04:24 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #html-wg
13:04:40 <dsinger> zakim, who is here?
13:04:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
13:04:41 <Zakim> On IRC I see adrianba, freedom, dsinger, adam, anne, mjs, SGondo, homata, yuma_1985, davidb, hidetaka, myakura, shepazu, aroben, laplink, jun, oedipus, Lachy, Stevef, Martijnc,
13:04:45 <Zakim> ... plh, gavin_, fantasai, wonsuk, MikeSmith, Zakim, mgylling, janina, MichaelC, Marco_Ranon, ormaaj, colinsullivan, arronei, richardschwerdtfe, krijnh, beverloo, inimino, webr3,
13:04:46 <weinig> weinig has joined #html-wg
13:04:50 <Zakim> ... Dashiva, Hixie, jgraham, CIA-1, gavin, hober, karl, webben, phenny, sideshow, ed, trackbot, RRSAgent, gsnedders, Shunsuke, heycam, Philip, jmb, Jedi, Yudai, drry, hsivonen, jwm
13:05:07 <eliot> eliot has joined #html-wg
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13:05:21 <paulc> paulc has joined #html-wg
13:05:30 <MichaelC> topic: Canvas
13:05:36 <MichaelC> scribe: MichaelC
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13:06:24 <MichaelC> fo: 2 proposals - imagemap, and DOM
13:06:34 <MichaelC> MS supports DOM, implemented in IE9
13:06:48 <MichaelC> anybody else?
13:06:56 <MichaelC> rs: filed a bug with Firefox, but not in yet
13:07:00 <MichaelC> ds: <interrupted>
13:07:02 <Julian> Julian has joined #html-wg
13:07:13 <MichaelC> fo: so looks like support centering around that
13:07:17 <dbaron> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg2
13:07:17 <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg2...
13:07:17 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
13:07:17 <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
13:07:34 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibilitynonav
13:07:55 <MichaelC> a second mode for this DOM
13:08:04 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/Map4NotAdom
13:08:10 <MichaelC> things sent to the DOM but not rendered
13:08:20 <MichaelC> 2 DOM modes, testing scariness
13:08:43 <MichaelC> leads to questions like with iframe, do you go into that iframe or not?
13:09:00 <oedipus> ISSUE-74: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/74 Canvas Accessibility
13:09:00 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
13:09:26 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-074
13:10:05 <MichaelC> so need to work out what goes into the DOM
13:10:19 <MichaelC> can specify what goes in, or what doesn't go in
13:10:25 <kennyluck> kennyluck has joined #html-wg
13:11:01 <MichaelC> might want to look at tricky situations where a canvas object relates to a UI feature
13:11:18 <MichaelC> e.g., checkbox in <canvas>, is toggled by AT, should receive a click event
13:11:22 <shan> shan has joined #html-wg
13:11:26 <MichaelC> how do we handle event messaging in the shadow DOM?
13:11:43 <MichaelC> need to discuss, but need more people involved
13:11:56 <MichaelC> pc: what's path to addressing this?
13:12:16 <MichaelC> rs: file a bug about what HTML elements are allowed in the shadow DOM
13:12:20 <MichaelC> pc: what's the process?
13:12:26 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html#ISSUE-074
13:12:31 <Kai> Kai has joined #html-wg
13:12:37 <MichaelC> rs: <scribe couldn't parse>
13:12:51 <MichaelC> pc, cs: file bugs?
13:13:04 <MichaelC> fo: need a bug, a change proposal ultimately needed
13:13:14 <MichaelC> need spec text (more than 3 lines) that describe how to address scenario
13:13:20 <MichaelC> cs: this is a sub-issue of the canvas issue
13:13:37 <MichaelC> pc: we've allready called for objections to ISSUE-74 and ISSUE-105
13:13:45 <MichaelC> rs: result?
13:13:45 <oedipus> ISSUE-74 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/74 Canvas Accessibility
13:13:49 <MichaelC> pc: not issued yet
13:14:01 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issues-74-and-105-objection-poll/
13:14:17 <paulc> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issues-74-and-105-objection-poll/
13:14:30 <MichaelC> cs: assuming we accept shadow DOM, <something about options>
13:14:38 <MichaelC> <something about imagemap or nothing>
13:14:59 <MichaelC> rs: imagemap nice to have
13:15:03 <MichaelC> but not needed
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13:15:20 <MichaelC> cs: assuming we choose DOM over other two <interrupted/>
13:15:31 <MichaelC> rs: need to pick the options in the straw poll
13:15:58 <MichaelC> pc: which option before the WG is the "use the shadow DOM"
13:16:04 <kliehm> kliehm has joined #html-wg
13:16:07 <MichaelC> cs: it's the null change proposal, refine existing text
13:16:26 <MichaelC> cs: assume this will be the WG decision
13:16:35 <MichaelC> so question is how to refine that into the existing issues
13:16:56 <MichaelC> rs: what operates inside the DOM and what functionality from Canvas 2D to support magnification
13:16:59 <MichaelC> fo, cs: table that
13:17:01 <dbaron> dbaron has left #html-wg
13:17:19 <MichaelC> cs: is this idea part of what has been surveyed?
13:17:32 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issues-74-and-105-objection-poll/results
13:17:33 <MichaelC> rs: nothing in the survey speaks to defining the limitations of the shadow DOM
13:17:46 <MichaelC> cs: meaning it would be a post-LC issue
13:18:03 <oedipus> this was definitely raised as an ISSUE before LC
13:18:03 <MichaelC> rs: arguably part of ISSUE-74
13:18:10 <MichaelC> cs: checks with Paul
13:18:31 <MichaelC> pc: don't know what chair decision would be
13:19:05 <MichaelC> rs: we should <scribe got distracted by private msg>
13:19:35 <MichaelC> pc: there are LC bugs we're processing in advance, so don't be too fussed about status of the bug
13:21:06 <oedipus> tracker, pointer
13:21:24 <oedipus> tracbot, pointer
13:21:30 <oedipus> trackbot, pointer
13:21:30 <trackbot> Sorry, oedipus, I don't understand 'trackbot, pointer'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
13:21:40 <MichaelC> action: frank to file a bug about arriving at spec text that speaks to complexities of how DOM elements behave in the shadowl DOM beneath the canvas
13:21:40 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
13:22:37 <MichaelC> fo: --- canvas with text entry ---
13:22:45 <MichaelC> options are 1) shouldn't do it
13:22:56 <MichaelC> 2) describe the multitudinous issues
13:23:15 <MichaelC> 3) solve some of the problems but not completely
13:23:29 <MichaelC> think third option doesn't help users nor implementers
13:23:33 <MichaelC> and second is really hard
13:24:00 <oedipus> plus 1 to FO option 2 because people are already building RTEs with canvas (skywriter, lively project, etc.)
13:24:06 <MichaelC> rs: we could say no text entry, but can't deliver without addressing the issues
13:24:10 <MichaelC> someone will try it
13:24:16 <MichaelC> fo: who does it besides bespin?
13:24:26 <MichaelC> ds: people use canvas to be innovative
13:24:32 <oedipus> bespin is now skywriter -- there is also oracle's lively-project
13:25:04 <MichaelC> fo: which pushes us into describing the issues, a lot of work
13:25:13 <MichaelC> ds: can we just leave that to authors
13:25:20 <MichaelC> give them pointers, tools, apis?
13:25:29 <oedipus>    http://labs.oracle.com/projects/lively/ and
13:25:31 <oedipus>    https://bespin.mozillalabs.com/
13:25:38 <oedipus> RTEs that use canvas
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13:25:53 <MichaelC> fo: let's say shadow DOM interacting with screen reader and <something>
13:26:03 <MichaelC> pretty straightforward in basic case
13:26:04 <oedipus> correction, bespin has been rebranded "skywriter"  http://mozillalabs.com/skywriter/
13:26:14 <MichaelC> with text entry, developer has to handle all kinds of events
13:26:21 <oedipus> however, https://bespin.mozillalabs.com/docs/ - still linked from skywriter pages
13:26:31 <MichaelC> ds: or hook into platform things
13:26:48 <MichaelC> fo: consider Japanese input, that has symbol prediction
13:26:54 <MichaelC> how would you tie that to canvas element
13:27:05 <MichaelC> or, consider spell check, form autocomplete,...
13:27:15 <MichaelC> these aren't even just a11y issues
13:27:34 <MichaelC> cs: in a standard control you'd have access to platform API in imperative manner
13:27:38 <MichaelC> don't have that in script
13:27:56 <MichaelC> fo: this is all addressable, but not within current timeline in a good way
13:28:54 <MichaelC> ds: maybe some of these aren't a11y specific
13:29:56 <MichaelC> mk: if shadow dom rich enough, can incentivize authors not to use script
13:30:12 <oedipus> plus 1 to martin
13:30:18 <MichaelC> fo: there are things you have to send to screen reader that you don't send to screen, e.g., cursor offset
13:31:40 <MichaelC> rs: there are some things we need to sync with UI anyway, such as spelling
13:31:50 <MichaelC> because they're part of HTML
13:31:52 <oedipus> canvas accessibility discussion at PFWG f2f 2010-01-01 (member-confidential) http://www.w3.org/2010/11/01-pf-minutes.html#item08
13:32:00 <MichaelC> cs: that's native to HTML 5?
13:32:03 <MichaelC> rs: yes
13:32:21 <MichaelC> cs: it requires spelling and grammar checking in contenteditable?
13:32:23 <MichaelC> rs: yes
13:32:45 <MichaelC> fo: what do people think of the work load?
13:33:05 <MichaelC> rs: contenteditable functioanlity needs to be reflected
13:33:12 <MichaelC> and magnification (bug exists)
13:34:09 <MichaelC> cs: how much time to do this work?
13:34:36 <MichaelC> rs: API isn't the difficult part to spec
13:34:43 <MichaelC> finding limits is a big part of the problem
13:34:59 <MichaelC> and finding how to expose things like spelling
13:35:16 <MichaelC> can get caret info which helps sync
13:35:26 <MichaelC> fo: what info do you want to get re spelling/
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13:35:41 <MichaelC> rs: need existence and location in the subtree
13:35:44 <oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibility
13:36:00 <MichaelC> cs: how much time to do this work?
13:36:19 <oedipus> avoiding redrawing focus ring: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2010Jul/0219.html
13:36:20 <MichaelC> rs: implementation a challenge
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13:36:24 <MichaelC> but 3 weeks to do spec
13:36:35 <MichaelC> maybe longer if need to find out what can be done with DOM subtree
13:37:29 <MichaelC> fo: <scribe distracted>
13:37:41 <MichaelC> cs: how long to spec to point your testers are happy?
13:37:54 <MichaelC> fo: don't think it can be done by last call deadline, that's implementable
13:38:07 <MichaelC> think we should look at post-LC vehicle to address these concerns
13:38:16 <MichaelC> also won't have implementers on board in time for LC
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13:38:45 <MichaelC> steps of getting spec text, getting agreement, etc., we're only at beginning of this process
13:39:00 <MichaelC> cs: can it be modularlized/
13:39:03 <MichaelC> q+
13:39:21 <MichaelC> rs: canvas 2d by april?
13:39:30 <MichaelC> pc: all documents on same scheudle
13:39:52 <oedipus> http://dev.w3.org/html5/canvas-api/canvas-2d-api.html
13:39:58 <MichaelC> can find WG position
13:40:03 <MichaelC> in email
13:40:41 <MichaelC> ack m
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13:41:00 <MichaelC> mc: we could put in "don't do text editing" for LC, and solve the problem during the LC period
13:41:04 <MichaelC> cs: or html.next
13:41:20 <eliot> Current canvas 2D spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-2dcontext-20101019/
13:41:26 <oedipus> bugs currently associated with HTML Issue 74: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7011 and http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=7404
13:41:27 <MichaelC> ds: message that you can do it but don't have support from us, on your own
13:41:36 <MichaelC> rs: will need caret, focus ring, select
13:42:51 <MichaelC> pc: canvas 2d context is in the set of documents going forward with html at LC
13:43:09 <MichaelC> ds: don't see how we can lock authors out of this design pattern
13:43:16 <MichaelC> cs: can write a WCAG failure
13:43:23 <MichaelC> fo: how would you solve?
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13:43:30 <MichaelC> ds: agree with you on difficulty and timeline
13:43:44 <MichaelC> cs: a WCAG failure is easy to do
13:44:09 <MichaelC> we could do a sample application to show how to use contenteditable + canvas to get something kinda good
13:44:23 <MichaelC> mk: concern that contenteditable div not performant enough
13:44:33 <oedipus> canvas-based rich text editor projects: skywriter (was bespin) http://mozillalabs.com/skywriter/ and lively http://labs.oracle.com/projects/lively/
13:44:36 <MichaelC> cs: but that's not our primary concern - just giving options
13:44:43 <MichaelC> (another is "use HTML")
13:44:56 <MichaelC> this could be a WCAG technique
13:45:23 <oedipus> authors shouldn't have to turn to WCAG in order to do canvas accessibly
13:45:53 <MichaelC> mc: are we deciding never to solve this, or to solve it later?
13:45:56 <MichaelC> and what do we do pre-LC
13:46:08 <MichaelC> fo: think we're commiting to solving, but after LC
13:46:14 <MichaelC> not sure what we do pre-LC
13:46:39 <MichaelC> mc: so <interrupted>
13:47:02 <MichaelC> pc: we could ask in the LC status section what reviewer priority is on this issue
13:47:17 <MichaelC> can be hard to get WG to agree to this
13:47:38 <MichaelC> but I can just take over that section
13:48:11 <MichaelC> fo, cs: +1 (each)
13:48:32 <MichaelC> fo: that allows us to say "here are the problems we've identified"
13:48:54 <MichaelC> pc: have done this in situations where we weren't sure of appropriate direction
13:49:38 <MichaelC> cs: that could help set priority for when / whether to address post-LC
13:49:49 <MichaelC> pc: having a bug that clearly describes problem gives a hook for that
13:50:01 <MichaelC> in the status section
13:50:25 <MichaelC> <group looks for whether there's a bug>
13:51:49 <MichaelC> action: rich to file a bug about accessible rich text editing with canvas
13:51:49 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
13:52:55 <MichaelC> pc: yesterday question of doing profile(s) of HTML 5 came up
13:53:17 <MichaelC> an HTML 5 environment with only script and canvas was a compelling idea
13:53:28 <MichaelC> and that's a use case for this text entry issue
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13:54:37 <MichaelC> connecting the dots....
13:54:43 <oedipus> timed track discussion 2010-11-04 http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html#item10
13:55:01 <oedipus> limited devices and profiles: http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html#item11
13:55:06 <MichaelC> q+
13:55:35 <MichaelC> rs: <scribe missed, some sort of +1>
13:56:09 <MichaelC> mk: 1.5 years ago this came up at SXSW
13:56:22 <oedipus> q?
13:56:54 <kliehm> mk: "canvas is like having an APll
13:57:12 <kliehm> mk: Apple II in the browser"
13:57:15 <oedipus> shouldn't limit to WCAG -- should be in HTML5 spec
13:57:28 <kliehm> s/APll//
13:58:34 <oedipus> post LC1 pre LC2
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13:59:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
13:59:40 <oedipus> minus 1 -- don't think should pass off to WCAG entirely -- canvas implementors will be looking at the 2d-canvas api
14:01:55 <MichaelC> sf: ask about caret etc.
14:02:02 <MichaelC> rs: not subject to the proposed resolutions
14:02:12 <MichaelC> pc: the formal decision hasn't been issued yet
14:02:20 <MichaelC> cs, rs: <something> didn't make it to the survey
14:02:30 <MichaelC> s/<something>/caret/
14:02:35 <Kai> Kai has joined #html-wg
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14:02:50 <MichaelC> pc: but focus rectangle was surveyed
14:02:52 <MichaelC> ack me
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14:03:06 <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: in LC version of spec, have a warning about using canvas for text editing (absent a text field), and create WCAG techniques and failures related to this
14:03:13 <MichaelC> RESOLUTION: work on a full solution to the text editing in canvas problem, and get into the spec at some future point
14:03:23 <MichaelC> fo: --- drawFocusRing ---
14:03:42 <MichaelC> asks about current status
14:03:53 <MichaelC> rs: we originally included coordinates for the focus ring
14:04:30 <MichaelC> <something else>
14:04:37 <MichaelC> cs: will it pick up OS settings?
14:04:44 <MichaelC> rs: yes
14:04:52 <MichaelC> a couple threads still open on status
14:05:16 <MichaelC> cs: does the spec have everything it needs for focus?
14:05:24 <MichaelC> rs: no, caret and focus ring are confounded
14:05:31 <MichaelC> doesn't account for blink rate
14:05:34 <MichaelC> cs: bugs?
14:05:41 <MichaelC> rs: one bug with a proposal
14:06:10 <MichaelC> cs: we asked about a bug for caret; didn't ask for focus ring, may need one for that also
14:06:14 <MichaelC> rs: <looking>
14:06:39 <MichaelC> no actual defect
14:07:04 <MichaelC> action: Rich to file defects for features necessary for focus ring and magnification
14:07:04 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
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14:08:22 <eliot> Current canvas 2d api spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-2dcontext-20101019/
14:08:27 <MichaelC> <confusion over different versions of canvas spec>
14:09:19 <Stevef> Provide accessibility information for driving screen magnifier tracking of focus rectangle and caret selection and to prevent blink rate seizures http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibility
14:09:25 <MichaelC> action: Eliot to indicate that old editors' draft of canvas is out-dated and reference new one
14:09:25 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
14:09:56 <MichaelC> fo: getcursorblinkrate should be tied to text entry, not focus management
14:10:29 <MichaelC> should include this in the text entry bug
14:10:48 <MichaelC> rs: along with grammar checking?
14:10:49 <MichaelC> fo: yes
14:11:32 <oedipus> note that SteveF said "Provide accessibility information for driving screen magnifier tracking of focus rectangle and caret selection and to prevent blink rate seizures http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/canvasaccessibility"
14:12:14 <MichaelC> fo: --- any other issues? ---
14:12:31 <MichaelC> ds: we haven't scraped bottom of barrel, but won't find all possible issues before LC
14:12:46 <MichaelC> mk: should we inventory examples of canvas uses to get ideas of issues?
14:13:08 <MichaelC> fo: IE team doesn't enumerate everything on the web, answer is always "enough to matter"
14:13:42 <MichaelC> there are three types of controls: <missed>
14:15:27 <MichaelC> s/<missed>/1) show info such as labels; 2) toggles for something simple, like checkboxes and single-selection lists; 3) text entry, with lots of complex nuances
14:16:13 <MichaelC> those are the basic building blocks of any UI, even when they add up to something complex
14:17:11 <MichaelC> mc: not convinced all can be reduced to that, but maybe
14:17:21 <MichaelC> mk: for user interaction, it can be reduced that far
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14:18:17 <MichaelC> fo: no matter how swanky / spiffy the control, it still boils down to those types of actions
14:19:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kliehm
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14:24:06 <oedipus> developer should get info from 2D-canvas-api portion directly, not be pointed to WCAG
14:25:01 <oedipus> paulc, according to the agenda, the DRM session has been cancelled
14:30:58 <oedipus> are we officially on break?
14:31:33 <oedipus> resuming at top of hour?
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14:34:16 <Zakim> Team_(html-wg)13:00Z has ended
14:34:17 <Zakim> Attendees were 
14:34:22 <oedipus> thanks to all the scribes!
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15:06:42 <paulc> test
15:06:53 <paulc> Topic: Applicable specifications
15:07:36 <Julian> Julian has joined #html-wg
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15:09:49 <Julian> topic: applicable specs
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15:10:54 <adrianba> ISSUE-140?
15:10:54 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
15:11:04 <anne> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9178
15:11:05 <paulc> Bug 9178?
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15:11:45 <anne> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg2
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15:11:45 <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
15:11:53 <noahm> ISSUE-140: clarify the applicability of the term "conforming document" in cases where "applicable specifications" had been used to augment or change the base HTML5 specification
15:11:53 <trackbot> Sorry... I don't know anything about this channel
15:11:55 <dbaron> trackbot, associate this channel with #html-wg2
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15:11:55 <trackbot> If you want to associate this channel with an existing Tracker, please say 'trackbot, associate this channel with #channel' (where #channel is the name of default channel for the group)
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15:11:58 <trackbot> Associating this channel with #html-wg...
15:12:16 <MichaelC> trackbot, int
15:12:16 <trackbot> Sorry, MichaelC, I don't understand 'trackbot, int'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help
15:12:21 <MichaelC> trackbot, init
15:12:28 <paulc> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#extensibility
15:12:34 <anne> ISSUE-140
15:12:38 <anne> ISSUE-140?
15:12:38 <trackbot> ISSUE-140 -- clarify the applicability of the term "conforming document" in cases where "applicable specifications" had been used to augment or change the base HTML5 specification -- raised
15:12:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/140
15:12:45 <hsivonen> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#other-applicable-specifications
15:15:32 <hsivonen> q+
15:15:40 <paulc> Noah: I raised the bug under ISSUE-140.
15:15:48 <paulc> scribenick: paulc
15:16:11 <paulc> Noah:  My concern is about conformance terminology.
15:16:39 <paulc> Noah: Let's say I have an HTML document that does not use any extensions.  The HTML5 spec says what is conforming.
15:17:14 <paulc> Noah: Let's say someone else writes an "applicable spec" that is incompatible since it changes what is required.
15:17:33 <hsivonen> The "Preset" menu on http://validator.nu/ is relevant
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15:18:38 <mjs> q+
15:18:45 <paulc> Noah:  I am asking that if a document that is only conforming if there is an "applicable specification" then I should have to say this when I give you the document.
15:19:10 <adrianba> q?
15:19:33 <paulc> ack hsivonen
15:19:47 <dbaron> q+
15:20:12 <noahm> q+ to ask Henri: it's great that the validator does this, but where does the spec requires this
15:20:18 <paulc> henri: I agree with what Noah says.  If you look at validator.new its configuration file controls what applicable specs apply during validation.
15:20:29 <noahm> Does the spec require what the validator does?
15:20:30 <dbaron> s/validator.new/validator.nu/
15:20:56 <paulc> @dbaron: thanks
15:20:57 <sicking> q+
15:21:14 <paulc> henri: Since ARIA is included then that case could be changed.
15:21:24 <noahm> I'm happy for you to deal explicitly with a handful of edge cases like SVG and Aria as you see fit.
15:21:55 <noahm> I'm just suggesting that the HTML5 spec should be unambiguous:  you can't say "my doc conforms to HTML5" if it actually requires extensions to conform
15:22:30 <paulc> henri: the html5 does not give the SVG validation rules so you need to tell the validator what SVG to use.
15:22:59 <shepazu> the SVG WG would be happy to help review any tests that involve SVG
15:23:05 <paulc> Noah: I want to spec to require what Henri described how the validator.nu work.
15:23:23 <paulc> q?
15:23:28 <hsivonen> q+
15:23:45 <paulc> ack maciej
15:23:51 <paulc> ack mjs
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15:24:08 <paulc> Maciej: I want to mention scope of applicable specification clause.
15:24:30 <paulc> Maciej: you can add elements to make them conforming but you cannot change existing elements.
15:28:06 <paulc> Maciej:  I retract my statement but this is different than it used to be.
15:28:10 <paulc> Ack dbaron
15:28:54 <paulc> DBaron: Restating: Noah wants "conforming HTML5 document" and then some other phrase when an "applicable spec" is involved.
15:29:13 <anne> q?
15:29:23 <paulc> ack noahm
15:29:23 <Zakim> noahm, you wanted to ask Henri: it's great that the validator does this, but where does the spec requires this
15:29:26 <Julian> q+
15:29:34 <paulc> ack sicking
15:30:11 <paulc> If it contains ARIA is if "conforming HTML5 document"?
15:30:32 <paulc> Noah: depends on what the spec says.  Just say it clearly in the spec.
15:31:18 <paulc> Should we move the sentence:
15:31:33 <paulc> As far as conformance goes, what matters in a particular community is what that community agrees is applicable.
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15:32:24 <paulc> ack hs
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15:33:05 <paulc> Henri:  The A.S. clause is trying to say in words what the validator.nu has been doing in practise.
15:33:08 <noahm> NM: My main priority is that I want the term "conforming HTML5 document" to be defined as referring only to the unextended specification.
15:33:18 <paulc> q+
15:33:29 <adrianba> +1 to what henri says - it wouldn't hurt to make it explicit in the spec instead of implicit
15:33:39 <noahm> NM: I am somewhat flexible as to what terminology would be used for documents that conform only to the extended specifications.
15:34:36 <paulc> Henri: If you invoke the A.S clause then your statement should say something different than if you did not.
15:34:54 <noahm> As best I can tell, I am in complete agreement with Henri, and I note that I have no strong concern as to how ARIA, MathML or SVG is treated, as long is it's clear one way or the other.
15:34:59 <paulc> Henri: This agrees with Noah's ask.
15:35:23 <paulc> henri: Do we need a more formal way of negotiating this.
15:35:33 <noahm> I don't agree that moving the last sentence of the note to be normative achieves the goal.
15:35:50 <paulc> ack Julian
15:36:20 <paulc> Julian:  The spec needs to be clearer about what a conforming document is ie about SVG, MathML or ARIA are in or out.
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15:37:07 <noahm> I think the right way to do it is adding to the definition of conforming document something like: "the term 'conforming document' applies only to documents that conform to this specification in the absence of additional applicable specification extensions".
15:37:10 <hsivonen> q+
15:37:21 <paulc> Julian: We should ahve a term for a document that conforms to HTML5 spec + SVG + Mathml
15:37:42 <paulc> ack paulc
15:37:44 <noahm> I also think the "vendor neutral" term is sort of goofy, but decided not to fight that battle if you all are happy.
15:37:45 <mjs> q+
15:38:00 <mjs> q-
15:39:25 <noahm> q+ to talk about media types
15:39:58 <paulc> paulc: How do I know what A.S are being used when I receive a HTML5 resource.
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15:41:25 <Julian> q+
15:42:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html kennyluck
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15:43:59 <paulc> ack hsi
15:45:46 <paulc> henri: the situation is similar for "some version of xml" (search for this)
15:46:17 <paulc> paulc: this leaves an extension point in the spec
15:47:36 <paulc> henri: this is the why spec does not give a fixed normative reference to the A.S.
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15:48:09 <paulc> paulc: this is like have a forward looking normative reference (not dated) in the reference section.
15:49:31 <paulc> ack noahm
15:49:31 <Zakim> noahm, you wanted to talk about media types
15:50:32 <sicking> q+
15:51:40 <hsivonen> q+
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15:53:53 <paulc> ack julian
15:53:56 <adrianba> q?
15:54:41 <paulc> Julian:  The validator case henri mentioned is really important.
15:55:19 <paulc> Julian:  But others out there use the phrase "conforming HTML5" documents to mean something different and pre-determined.
15:55:43 <paulc> Julian:  We need something in the spec that describes some of the case described by validator.nu
15:55:48 <paulc> ack sicking
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15:58:44 <anne> q+
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16:01:04 <Julian> q+
16:01:07 <anne> the additional bit we add is that conformance depends on who you ask
16:01:36 <Julian> q-
16:01:38 <anne> some will accept microdata as app. spec., some won't
16:01:56 <paulc> ack hs
16:02:14 <sicking> My proposed new text:
16:02:16 <sicking> When vendor-neutral extensions to this specification are needed, either this specification can be updated accordingly, or an extension specification can be written that overrides the requirements in this specification. When a community applying this specification to their activities explicitly agrees that they will recognize the requirements of such an extension specification, it becomes an...
16:02:18 <sicking> ...applicable specification for the purposes of conformance requirements in this specification. As far as conformance goes, what matters in a particular community is what that community explicitly agrees is applicable.
16:02:20 <sicking> (green) Note: Someone could write a specification that defines any arbitrary byte stream as conforming, and then claim that their random white noise is conforming. However, that does not mean that their random junk actually is conforming for everyone's purposes: if someone else has not explicitly agreed that that specification does not apply, then the byte stream is not conforming to them,...
16:02:22 <sicking> ...and is just random white noise.
16:02:53 <paulc> q+
16:02:54 <anne> you should write a CP
16:02:56 <Julian> s/vendor-neutral//
16:02:59 <noah> From RFC 2616L
16:03:01 <noah>    When an entity-body is included with a message, the data type of that
16:03:01 <noah>    body is determined via the header fields Content-Type and Content-
16:03:01 <noah>    Encoding. These define a two-layer, ordered encoding model:
16:03:01 <noah>        entity-body := Content-Encoding( Content-Type( data ) )
16:03:01 <noah>    Content-Type specifies the media type of the underlying data.
16:03:02 <noah>    Content-Encoding may be used to indicate any additional content
16:03:04 <noah>    codings applied to the data, usually for the purpose of data
16:03:06 <noah>    compression, that are a property of the requested resource. There is
16:03:07 <noah>    no default encoding.
16:03:12 <noah> This says nothing about processing.
16:03:28 <noah> So, I respectfully disagree with Henri's reading of the definition of Content-type.
16:03:35 <noah> The word processing doesn't occur.
16:03:39 <noah> q?
16:03:46 <noah> q+ to look at RFC 2616
16:03:56 <anne> s/extensions/vendor-neutral extensions/
16:04:03 <anne> ftfy
16:04:41 <anne> noah, it does not quite align with the vision you can send HTML as text/plain to display it as raw text though
16:04:57 <anne> noah, cause what that is saying is that it is no longer HTML, or am I missing something?
16:05:06 <Julian> (I believe we should stay away from the term "vendor-neutral"; it's not helpful here)
16:05:24 <anne> (it is, because vendor-specific extensions are to be done differently)
16:05:26 <noah> Content-type is NOT about code paths.  It is just a statement about the interpretation that the Server intends to be applied to the bits.
16:05:44 <anne> interpretation is a code path no?
16:05:47 <noah> I strongly urge that you ground this discussion in RFC 2616, not in other assertions of what Content-type is.
16:05:55 <anne> text/plain -> go here, text/html -> go there
16:05:57 <noah> q?
16:06:10 <anne> q-
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16:06:32 <oedipus> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2616.txt
16:06:35 <noah> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec14.html#sec14.17
16:08:11 <adrianba> q?
16:09:59 <hsivonen> q+
16:12:46 <paulc> ack paulc
16:16:07 <paulc> topic: <small>
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16:16:53 <dbaron> ScribeNick: dbaron
16:17:04 <dbaron> Topic: <u>, <small>, etc.
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16:18:13 <dbaron> hsivonen: There's a wide range of how semantic presentational formats can be.  A  PNG gives you a bitmap; a PDF gives an exact bitmap with a bit more abstraction around resolution.
16:18:33 <dbaron> hsivonen: Then there's HTML, and DocBook that has a lot more that doesn't describe presentation but instead describes the role of stuff in the document.
16:18:48 <dbaron> hsivonen: And there's TEI (?) that tries to describe roles even more precisely in terms of semantics.
16:18:55 <noahm> Julian (and others): if you're interested in the proper registration of the Content-type, then in addition to RFC 2616 and pertinent IANA stuff, you might want to read the TAG's Finding "The Self-Describing Web".  http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments.html
16:19:24 <dbaron> hsivonen: When HTML started, there were some elements for marking up stuff inside a paragraph, e.g., to be italic or underlined, and this seemed to be closer to the presentational end of the spectrum than to the semantic end of the spectrum.
16:19:44 <dbaron> hsivonen: There was a belief that being more semantic was better because it allows repurposing the content in different ways.
16:19:57 <dbaron> hsivonen: The assumption was that more semantic was better, and presentational was worse.
16:20:10 <dbaron> hsivonen: Here I am making an inference from what I see in old HTML drafts; I wasn't there.
16:20:47 <dbaron> hsivonen: First there existed <i>, and then since it was seen as presentational and presentational was worse than semantic, a bunch of other elements were created for different use cases, e.g., <em>, <var>, <cite>.
16:21:22 <dbaron> hsivonen: In practice, as implemented in browsers, and even as implemented for accessibility purposes (at least as far as Raman said on the list sometime), these are for all purposes in practice synonyms for italics.
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16:21:50 <dbaron> hsivonen: There isn't much software that makes good use of these semantics beyond the thing that sets this thing apart from its environment in terms of style.
16:22:03 <dbaron> hsivonen: The concept that presentational is worse than semantic has been advocated over the past decade, a lot.
16:22:14 <dbaron> hsivonen: It's hard to take the position that, ok, we didn't mean that, and presentational is now ok.
16:22:19 <MichaelC> q+
16:22:26 <MichaelC> q- n
16:22:28 <MichaelC> ack h
16:22:36 <dbaron> hsivonen: But we see that these elements that are called presentational within a paragraph are still being used, so we can't say they'd be non-conforming, which would be silly from a practical point of view.
16:23:03 <dbaron> hsivonen: The approach HTML5 adapts is that some of these old presentational elements are given semantic fig leaves that give us a way to pretend they are semantic without changing in any way the way software handles them.
16:23:16 <MichaelC> q+ to say that semantic elements, while presented a certain way in mainstream browsers, still have different meanings that are used in transformations, custom styling, AT, etc.
16:23:26 <dbaron> hsivonen: It's a way of saving face that allows us to keep them conforming so nobody is inconvenienced but we keep the semantic better than presentational doctrine.
16:23:44 <dbaron> hsivonen: The <i> element has been made conforming in HTML5 by giving it a semantic fig leaf, but the <u> element has not, and is nonconforming.
16:24:05 <oedipus> they are "italicized" by a screen reader in response to the markup -- a user should be able to use cite and em and have them spoken with distinct voice characteristics -- if the AT is merely screen scraping, then anything rendered in italics will be identified as being italicized, but the benefit of <cite> as a semantic demarcator is far superior to simply interpreting everything rendered as...
16:24:06 <dbaron> hsivonen: They are similar in nature: both used for applying formatting inside a paragraph in the way that normal people think about formatting.
16:24:06 <oedipus> ...italics as simply italics -- there are semantics behind cite, var, em
16:24:20 <dbaron> hsivonen: ...
16:24:29 <oedipus> hsivonen, re accessibility and italics please see my IRC comments above
16:24:55 <dbaron> hsivonen: If we have <i> but don't have <u>, that's kind of arbitrary.  kennyluck filed a bug saying that in chinese you underline certain things.  That bug was closed saying that the semantic is already covered by this other stuff, so we don't need the <u> element.
16:25:35 <dbaron> hsivonen: However, the <u> element exists already, and does this thing that is easy for authors to think about, instead of having to express "I want to express a proper noun" and then say it's underlined.
16:25:59 <dbaron> hsivonen: You can style the <i> element in CSS to make it underlined, but it's not reasonable to tell a Chinese author to, instead of using the <u> that works they must use an <i> and restyle it.
16:26:04 <MichaelC> q+ to say I agree many people author according to visual style with implied semantics, but that shouldn't stop us from providing and encouraging the semantic layer
16:26:22 <dbaron> hsivonen: Flipping it around for a European author would feel unreasonable (and saying to use <u> for italics).
16:26:53 <dbaron> hsivonen: It seems it doesn't help the most people to say that these old presentational inline elements are invalid when they are interoperably implemented, and the casual user thinks in terms of wanting this stuff to be italic, bold, underlined, etc.
16:27:26 <oedipus> q+ a user should be able to use cite and em and have them spoken with distinct voice characteristics--if the AT is merely screen scraping, then anything rendered in italics will be identified as being italicized, but the benefit of <cite> as a semantic demarcator is far superior to simply interpreting everything rendered as italics as simply italics--there are semantics behind cite, var, em
16:27:29 <dbaron> hsivonen: There's a counter-argument: if you're translating from Chinese to English or vice-versa, then you need to change the element as part of the translation process, and it would be semantically proper to not have to change the elements when you change the text.
16:27:38 <oedipus> q+ to say a user should be able to use cite and em and have them spoken with distinct voice characteristics--if the AT is merely screen scraping, then anything rendered in italics will be identified as being italicized, but the benefit of <cite> as a semantic demarcator is far superior to simply interpreting everything rendered as italics as simply italics--there are semantics behind cite, var, em
16:27:43 <dbaron> hsivonen: But if you have ruby in Japanese and you translate to English, you need to change the ruby.
16:27:57 <dbaron> hsivonen: So this is my argument that these things should be valid.  <small> exists and is interoperably implemented.
16:28:31 <dbaron> hsivonen: When we have these inline elements, we can do accessibility and non-CSS processing on the content; if we have spans and CSS then we need CSS computed style to do the same processing.
16:28:56 <dbaron> hsivonen: I'm not arguing for adding any new of these inline elements, but since they exist, have use cases, are easy to understand, and already work, we should say it's ok to use them and we don't need to pretend they don't exist.
16:29:04 <anne> q?
16:29:07 <MichaelC> ack me
16:29:07 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say that semantic elements, while presented a certain way in mainstream browsers, still have different meanings that are used in transformations, custom
16:29:11 <Zakim> ... styling, AT, etc. and to say I agree many people author according to visual style with implied semantics, but that shouldn't stop us from providing and encouraging the semantic
16:29:14 <Zakim> ... layer
16:29:16 <dbaron> MichaelC: I agree with some (> 50%) of what you said.
16:29:20 <dbaron> MichaelC: 70-ish
16:29:31 <dbaron> MichaelC: A couple points that didn't sit well with me:
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16:30:03 <dbaron> MichaelC: (1) You talk about how all of these semantic elements are presented the same way; there are some that are handled differently by some software.
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16:30:06 <dbaron> hsivonen: Which software?
16:30:33 <dbaron> MichaelC: I could take an action to provide list later.
16:30:48 <dbaron> MichaelC: There are bigger use cases for semantic elements than I thought you acknowledge.
16:30:53 <hsivonen> q+
16:31:07 <dbaron> MichaelC: I agree that people author according to visual style.  I want to find a way to get authors who author visually to end up with semantic content.
16:31:20 <dbaron> MichaelC: But I think we need to end up with the semantic content available and encourage them to end up with it.
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16:31:34 <dbaron> MichaelC: Those were just a couple addition points I wanted to give.
16:32:03 <dbaron> cynthia: I agree the inconsistency of <i> and <u>; I'd want consistency.  My preference would to deprecate them in favor of more semantic elements or <span> where there are no semantics.
16:32:09 <oedipus> q?
16:32:21 <dbaron> hsivonen: Isn't span worse for accessibility?  Doesn't that then require figuring out more?
16:32:28 <dbaron> cynthia: I see <i> and <span> as equivalent.
16:32:46 <dbaron> cynthia: The <i> element says it's italic but not why; the AT can tell you it's italic.
16:32:52 <oedipus> just because something is rendered as italics visually, does not mean that it should be identified as italics by a screen reader or other AT, but should be triggers for voice characteristics changes so 1 can tell something emphasized from something cited
16:32:54 <dbaron> anne: The AT can tell you it's italic==different.
16:33:00 <oedipus> q?
16:33:25 <dbaron> maciej: Editing tools can (1) add <span> and style (2) insert <i> (3) insert <em>; <i> seems the least bad of these three.
16:33:34 <dbaron> cynthia: I agree having these inconsistent is strange.
16:33:42 <dbaron> hsivonen: I care less about <small> than <u>.
16:33:44 <r12a> q+
16:34:17 <dbaron> cynthia: The semantic issue: I don't think <em> is much better than <i>; I think the foreign language case may be useful to know that it's italic because it's French or because it's a proper name.
16:34:19 <MikeSmith> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-phrase-block-list/#phrase
16:34:27 <dbaron> hsivonen: The foreign-language semantic is in the lang attribute.
16:34:37 <MikeSmith> -> http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama-phrase-block-list/#phrase Opera MAMA report on Phrase elements
16:35:25 <dbaron> hsivonen: Going back to what maciej said: Dreamweaver... says in WAI guidelines that things are more accessible if "italic" command is bound to <em> and "bold" bound to <strong>; this is now implemented in Dreamweaver, Wordpress, so now you can't infer semantics from <em> or <strong> because the author just made the "make this italic" gesture.
16:35:31 <MikeSmith> the <u> element is used as often as <em> in existing content
16:35:51 <dbaron> hsivonen: You can no longer infer a difference from <i> and <em> for accessibility from random Web content.
16:36:11 <dbaron> hsivonen: ... because all these content-generating tools have been generating <em> for this UI gesture.
16:36:20 <oedipus> hsivonen, yes you can -- if you set one voice characteristic for <i> and another for <em> there IS a difference
16:36:26 <fantasai> Zakim, q+
16:36:26 <Zakim> I see oedipus, hsivonen, r12a, fantasai on the speaker queue
16:36:31 <dbaron> cynthia: I don't think <i> is a good solution to providing a solution for why it's italic.
16:36:51 <dbaron> cynthia: I'd like to see the UI ask you why it's italic.
16:37:02 <dbaron> maciej: I think a prompt after the "italic" command is a non-starter for usability.
16:37:11 <dbaron> cynthia: That doesn't mean the right solution is to replace <em> with <i>.
16:37:15 <oedipus> minus 1000 for hsivonen's point on a11y
16:37:33 <oedipus> it is easier to un-italicize content styled with CSS than it is to undo a hard-coded <u>
16:37:40 <oedipus> make that <i>
16:37:56 <dbaron> hsivonen: I'm not suggesting that.  I'm not saying that people shouldn't mark up foreign languages with the lang attribute.  I'm just saying the <u>, <i>, and probably <small> should be conforming; people who want to add more semantics should still be able to do that.
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16:38:08 <dbaron> hsivonen: Instead of us prescribing the one way to do that, we should allow the other.
16:38:20 <dbaron> cynthia: I'd tend to agree with you for <i> and <u>; I think <small> not used much in the wild.
16:38:27 <dbaron> MikeSmith: Take a look at the data I put in IRC.
16:38:39 <anne> oedipus, if it is easy to set a voice you can just set the same voice as for normal content so I'm not sure your -1000 applies
16:38:41 <dbaron> MikeSmith: <small> used more than <sup>, <abbr>, ..., combined.
16:38:54 <dbaron> [repeating of data in link]
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16:39:14 <dbaron> cynthia: As far as outcome, I think we're not far apart, but I think we largely agree on what to do.
16:39:26 <dbaron> cynthia: I put the bug in but didn't escalate it.
16:39:45 <oedipus> anne, hsivonen, kennyluck, just because something is rendered as italics visually, does not mean that it should be identified as italics by a screen reader or other AT, but should be triggers for voice characteristics changes so 1 can tell something emphasized from something cited
16:39:48 <dbaron> MichaelC: I think the use cases you're asking for are, I think, more important than you think.
16:40:19 <dbaron> MichaelC: I think we could treat ... as WCAG as conformance errors / ???, but I don't think that will be universally accepted in a11y community.
16:40:21 <mjs> oedipus: would you like to type your comments into IRC?
16:40:25 <r12a> q?
16:40:32 <dbaron> hsivonen: I don't notice gregory citing any particular software products.
16:40:38 <mjs> ack oedipus 
16:40:38 <Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to say a user should be able to use cite and em and have them spoken with distinct voice characteristics--if the AT is merely screen scraping, then anything
16:40:39 <dbaron> MichaelC: He uses JAWS.
16:40:42 <Zakim> ... rendered in italics will be identified as being italicized, but the benefit of <cite> as a semantic demarcator is far superior to simply interpreting everything rendered as
16:40:47 <Zakim> ... italics as simply italics--there are semantics behind cite, var, em
16:40:48 <dbaron> hsivonen: Does it render them differently by default?
16:40:49 <oedipus> and NVDA and Orca
16:40:58 <dbaron> MichaelC: Not sure default is that important.
16:41:02 <dbaron> cynthia: Highly configurable.
16:41:08 <oedipus> by default, everything is vanilla
16:41:35 <oedipus> the user chooses what voice characteristics to change
16:41:36 <dbaron> [mjs reads comments from oedipus above]
16:42:12 <oedipus> out-of-the-box everything is vanilla -- the user has to choose an overlay or tweak the settings herself
16:42:37 <mjs> oedipus, let us know when you are done please so I can stop reading
16:42:49 <dbaron> cynthia: Point of clarification:  Do users typically choose an overlay, and do the common overlays include different voices for the different semantics?
16:42:50 <oedipus> for example, JAWS has "internet rent a crowd" which assigns different voices and voice characteristics to what JAWS can pick up from the DOM
16:43:04 <hsivonen> oedipus, so if <em> and <i> are different for you, how do you know whether the user had an authoring tool that bound <em> to the "italicize" command?
16:43:37 <oedipus> overlays include different voices for different semantics -- it is up to the user -- some users like multiple voices, others prefer one voice with pitch changes or an earcon (to indicate heading level, for exammple)
16:43:38 <cyns> q+
16:43:44 <dbaron> fantasai: I don't know about assitive technology, but I know book titles are rendered differently from emphasis in Chinese, so for someone who's writing in Chinese, it wouldn't make them to use <i> or <u> for these use cases.  If they wanted to they could use the semantic elements and insert punctuation with generated content, or insert the punctuation themselves directly.  But they are sometimes styled differently.
16:44:17 <dbaron> hsivonen: I wasn't suggesting taking <cite> away from authors.  But as much as we say it's valid for Chinese authors to use puntuation directly in content, it's valid for authors to use the <u> element.
16:44:24 <dbaron> [mjs reads responses from oedipus]
16:44:51 <oedipus> hsivonen, if i have <em> set to trigger a voice characteristics change, it won't do anything for <i> -- UNLESS i set a global "everything that is in italics no matter why should be expressed as italics" setting (such things exist)
16:45:20 <Julian> q+
16:45:24 <mjs> thanks, oedipus, moving on with the queue now
16:45:27 <mjs> ack hsivonen 
16:45:33 <mjs> q+
16:46:15 <dbaron> hsivonen: I can see the point that Gregory can configure the AT, but logically there isn't any quality signal in the difference between <i> and <em> when some tools bind the italic-command to <em>, so being able to style them differently in your user-stylesheet-equivalent mechanism doesn't tell you much.
16:46:31 <mjs> ack r12a 
16:46:35 <dbaron> hsivonen: Doesn't tell you anything about author's intent beyond that they pressed Cmd+I in Dreamweaver or another application.
16:46:39 <oedipus> hsivonen, i have different voice characteristics settings for <u> than anything that appears in a string encased in &#34; ... &#34;
16:46:40 <dbaron> r12a: Two comments:
16:46:51 <hsivonen> q+
16:46:58 <kennyluck> q+
16:47:01 <oedipus> s/settings for <u>/settings for <q>
16:47:17 <dbaron> r12a: First is parenthetic: in Dreamweaver I think you have to set an option to make it use <em> instead of <i>.  What follows on from that is that I actually chose to do that, and I might later choose not to do that, and I actually do use <em> to mean emphasis and I'm careful about how I write my code.
16:47:31 <dbaron> r12a: In the wide world you might not be able to rely on authors to do the right thing all the time.
16:47:40 <oedipus> hsivonen, so if i encounter something using a quote character it is spoken differently than if it were encased in a quote tag
16:48:20 <dbaron> hsivonen: But the reader doesn't know if the document came from you.  But it's useful from you for your CSS purposes.  I think it's good for you to hedge your own authoring practice against your own future styling changes.  I think CSS is now popular enough that we don't need to make these elements nonconforming to market CSS.
16:48:42 <dbaron> hsivonen: It doesn't follow that we should say to those authors who don't want to in advance prepare themselves against their future styling changes is nonconforming.
16:48:53 <dbaron> r12a: I agree; just saying some people will do it right and some won't.
16:49:22 <dbaron> r12a: (2) The main thing I wanted to say is that, I think, the main question is whether we deprecate <small> and <u>.
16:49:35 <dbaron> hsivonen: Right now different status for different elements.
16:49:49 <anne> <a>!
16:49:49 <dbaron> r12a: There's i/em and b/strong pairs; what's the semantic equivalent of strong?
16:50:00 <mjs> ack fantasai 
16:50:03 <dbaron> hsivonen: <ins> for American lawyer case; nothing for Chinese proper noun case.
16:50:18 <anne> s/of strong/of u/
16:50:39 <dbaron> fantasai: My understanding of the HTML spec is that <i> no longer means italics; it means this bit of text is set apart from the surrounding text in a presentationally-distinguished way.  It could be by italics or by something else.
16:50:59 <dbaron> fantasai: I don't see how that definition is any different from what's being proposed for <u>: same definition but different default style.
16:51:10 <dbaron> maciej: Traditionally underlines and italics are used for default things.
16:51:19 <oedipus> hsivonen, <em> and <i> are set to produce different voice characteristics because i set them to do so -- either way, i get the message that this string of text is set apart from the other for a specific reason
16:51:19 <dbaron> s/default/different/
16:51:41 <dbaron> hsivonen: You have three ways to set text apart from surrounding text (and they also make things different from each other).
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16:52:15 <dbaron> hsivonen: But in practice people think in terms of italic, bold, and underline.  I sidestepped what the semantics should be; I think we should allow this.
16:52:38 <dbaron> kennyluck: I raised this bug.  I discussed this with Chinese friend; think <b> might be a solution.
16:52:53 <hsivonen> http://www.helsinki.fi/~rkosken/kirjallisuus/pukuhistoria.html page created in Dreamweaver and edited in another version of Dreamweaver after upgrading
16:52:55 <dbaron> kennyluck: I'm not saying I have a strong opinion but I want to know which element I should use to style ???, or should I just use a <span>?
16:52:58 <mjs> ack cyns 
16:53:06 <kennyluck> s/???/proper noun/
16:53:22 <fantasai> kennyluck, read the definitions of <b> and <i> in the HTML5 spec
16:53:25 <dbaron> cynthia: If the reason for keeping these is ???, that seems like a valid reason to me.  Inconsistency also seems bad.
16:53:31 <fantasai> kennyluck, they mean sligtly different things
16:53:46 <mjs> ack Julian 
16:53:49 <dbaron> hsivonen: One reason <u> element is out is that hyperlinks are underlined so Hixie thinks <u> is bad.
16:54:33 <dbaron> Julian: I think this WG has spent countless man-years discussing whether something should be conforming or not.  I think it's pointless to make things nonconforming that user agents will have to implement anyway.  If we can just make a few noncontroversial things conforming and get closer to finishing.
16:54:41 <oedipus> kennyluck, <b> is about style - not conveying importance, as your quote shows -- presentation should be separate from content
16:55:05 <dbaron> cynthia: Can I withdraw the bug after someone else escalated it?
16:55:28 <dbaron> maciej: Anyone can escalate, so it's escalated, but there will be a call for escalated.
16:55:38 <dbaron> maciej: The bug on <small> was escalated.
16:56:18 <dbaron> anne: Allowing people not in the group to escalate things but not letting them write a change proposal seems like a bug in the process.
16:56:54 <dbaron> maciej: We allow people not in the group to escalate since it's the way to appeal the editor's decision to the WG.  If nobody in the WG cares enough to draft a change proposal then it'll get dropped.
16:57:09 <dbaron> anne: Can we instead require someone in the WG to agree before it gets escalated?
16:57:18 <mjs> ack mjs
16:57:22 <dbaron> cynthia: The only overhead is that it starts the clock for change proposals.
16:58:16 <oedipus> kennyluck "Authors are encouraged to consider whether other elements might be more applicable than the i element, for instance the em element for marking up stress emphasis, or the dfn element to mark up the defining instance of a term."
16:58:16 <dbaron> maciej: One useful framework for thinking about this is that there are two models of authoring for creating rich text to publish as HTML.  One model is that you're really thinking of it as HTML / Web Content, and you're thinking about markup, etc.  The other is casual, user-generated content (email, Word), where the mental model is hitting the bold or italic button.
16:58:29 <MichaelC> q+ to say it's useful for this opportunity to discuss what we separately mean by "semantics" etc.; but then we can move away from lots of group times on fiddly things
16:58:42 <dbaron> maciej: We should support the semantics, but we also need to support the casual user-generated content, and it's unreasonable to ask authors to do too much in order to put some content up on the Web.
16:59:16 <dbaron> maciej: This idea that everything has to be semantic has been a disservice to this sort of users; they end up using lots of spans with CSS, or inappropriate semantics.
16:59:39 <dbaron> maciej: This is sort of like punctuation; we don't have a sentence tag, we let people type a period.
17:00:01 <dbaron> maciej: I stronly agree with having the phrasing elements.  If we have to invent a semantic fig leaf, that's ok, but I'd prefer not to.
17:00:02 <Julian> q+
17:00:36 <dbaron> cynthia: For some of those scenarios there are tools that can assist people in being more semantic, such as clickable styles.  I'm fine with those being at a tool level.  Mostly I filed the bug because it seemed like there were inconsistencies.
17:00:42 <oedipus> but we should have a L (line) element so when snippets of <code> are displayed, the semantic integrity of a line of code (or a poem) is retained, no matter the manner of rendering (no more code in PRE with multiple <br>)
17:00:47 <dbaron> cynthia: Michael, do you feel strongly about keeping this stuff?
17:01:07 <mjs> ack hsivonen 
17:01:08 <dbaron> MichaelC: I feel strongly about not wasting a whole lot of time on little issues like this.  I think it's been useful to share our ideas on semantics.
17:01:08 <MichaelC> ack me
17:01:09 <Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to say it's useful for this opportunity to discuss what we separately mean by "semantics" etc.; but then we can move away from lots of group times on fiddly
17:01:12 <Zakim> ... things
17:01:31 <dbaron> hsivonen: I'd like to give some background about the page I linked to.  This is a page my mom wrote in Dreamweaver; it lists a bunch of books for her students to read.
17:01:41 <mjs> repasting referenced URL: http://www.helsinki.fi/~rkosken/kirjallisuus/pukuhistoria.html
17:01:46 <oedipus> <code><l>sample code line one</l><l>sample code line two</l></code>
17:02:16 <dbaron> hsivonen: The concept being marked up is clearly the concept the <cite> element would provide.  But the page instead has <i> elements and <em> elements.  This is explained by the version of Dreamweaver used to create it originally using the <i> element and a newer version of Dreamweaver using the <em> element in response to the same command.
17:02:17 <cyns> q+
17:02:48 <dbaron> hsivonen: The page isn't even internally consistent.  The user has know way of knowing this result from the WYSIWYG part of Dreamweaver.
17:03:05 <mjs> ack kennyluck 
17:03:07 <oedipus> the tool (dreamweaver) should have done a universal search-and-replace (interactive, preferably) which would have changed the <i> to <em> when <em> became the tool's default
17:03:10 <dbaron> hsivonen: I think it's hopeless to expect authors to do better; changing what Cmd+I generates doesn't add usefulness to this.
17:03:31 <dbaron> kennyluck: I found the interpretation of <i> as a semantic element hard to understand.  The table says the <i> element is for alternative voice, but the text says...
17:03:58 <dbaron> kennyluck: I don't think technical terms fit into this category; do you alternate your voice when you read a ??? name.
17:04:13 <dbaron> hsivonen: The reason it's complicated is that it tries to provide a semantic fig leaf to justify keeping <i>.
17:04:33 <fantasai> anne: For all the cases where a more specific element is not applicable
17:04:43 <Julian> q!
17:04:44 <fantasai> sicking: Technically you could use the citation, but ...
17:05:00 <fantasai> anne: There is a should requirement that you use the most appropriate element, which would mean you violate that should requirement.
17:05:06 <mjs> q?
17:05:07 <kennyluck> s/???/ship/
17:05:14 <r12a> q+
17:05:17 <fantasai> anne: You could argue that violating that should requirement is OK when you use WYSIWYG editor
17:05:18 <mjs> ack Julian 
17:05:47 <fantasai> Julian: I forgot to say and add to what I said before, that in addition to making all those elements that might be unconforming conforming
17:06:00 <oedipus> kennyluck, putting a ship's name in italics is a relic of printing conventions
17:06:10 <fantasai> Julian: The spec explains why using semantic elements is better, instead of using conformance hammer, I think that would be much better
17:06:14 <hsivonen> +1 to what Julian said
17:06:23 <mjs> ack cyns 
17:06:27 <fantasai> mjs: Last call for queuing
17:06:55 <fantasai> cyns: A tool could be designed to handle Henri's mom's use case, to help the user create a properly marked up bibliography
17:07:05 <fantasai> cyns: Not all tools will do that, but a tool can.
17:07:21 <fantasai> cyns: So it's not a spec problem but a tool problem.
17:07:30 <fantasai> cyns: The semantic fig leaf seems somewhat tortured
17:07:43 <fantasai> sicking: Do AT take action on <i> or <u>?
17:07:51 <fantasai> Janina: sure
17:07:55 <fantasai> Janina: That's an option
17:07:57 <oedipus> the tool (dreamweaver) should have done a universal search-and-replace (interactive, preferably) which would have changed the <i> to <em> when <em> became the tool's default while offering the user the choice to use other more appropriate tags (such as <cite> for instance)
17:08:08 <dbaron> sicking: Other than for proofreading, do people configure screenreaders that it reads in a different voice?
17:08:10 <mjs> ack r12a 
17:08:18 <dbaron> Janina: I don't think so.
17:08:42 <dbaron> r12a: I think different types of user are critical to this discussion;  I don't think you can expect ordinary user writing blog post to semantically tag their stuff, so I think it's useful to have <i> and <u>.
17:09:04 <dbaron> r12a: There are perhaps other users writing large Web sites going to be localized, and we could expect them to know about semantic markup and how to do things better.
17:09:07 <r12a> i think the distinct types of user is critical to this discussion - i doubt many users would know how to semantically tag their blog post text using elements or class names, but people designing large sites that need to be localized may do so, and for those we can provide guidance, eg. http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-b-and-i-tags
17:09:33 <dbaron> r12a: I think keeping the fig leaves in place can be useful; I think guidelines like the one just pasted could be useful.  I don't think we should do anything.
17:09:38 <dbaron> cynthia: Except add back <u>?
17:09:41 <dbaron> r12a: Possibly.
17:09:51 <anne> oedipus, haha
17:10:26 <dbaron> maciej: Out of actionable things, it seems like most people in the room in favor of adding back <u>.  For adding back <u> we have a bug that has been reopened.  Adding more info or maybe escalating might be right step.
17:10:26 <hsivonen> q+
17:10:35 <dbaron> Julian: Argument for removing semantic fig leaves.
17:10:43 <dbaron> maciej: Someone would have to file a bug to remove semantic fig leaves.
17:10:44 <mjs> ack hsivonen 
17:10:51 <cyns> +1 julian
17:11:11 <dbaron> hsivonen: As a validator developer, I care more about telling people to do busywork that isn't beneficial, so I care most about the machine-checkable conformance requirements (does the element exist in the language).
17:11:24 <dbaron> hsivonen: I'd be ok with not having semantic fig leaves and saying that these things are in the language and they do X.
17:11:36 <oedipus> rip off the semantic fig leaves!
17:11:59 <dbaron> hsivonen: I think it's semi-OK to have the fig leaves since they don't lead to bad consequences for validator users.  But they do lead to ratholing on mailing lists.
17:12:09 <dbaron> maciej: I care more about the mechanical requirements.
17:12:16 <dbaron> Julian: But people care about them.
17:12:20 <dbaron> ?: That's how we ended up here.
17:12:34 <dbaron> r12a: If people want to demarcate the content and don't want <em>.  What do they use?
17:12:54 <oedipus> if they feel strongly about it, they can use <strong>
17:13:10 <dbaron> fantasai: <span> doesn't say that the element should be distinguished to the user.  <i> says the reader should be able to distinguish the text from the surrounding contents.  I think it makes sense to encourage people to use <i> where that's appropriate rather than <span> + CSS.
17:13:25 <dbaron> cynthia: One thing that didn't get into minutes:  I think current spec text is quite confusing:  what <i> is supposed to mean.
17:13:40 <dbaron> cynthia: It seems like simpler and more declarative "<i> does this" text would be better.
17:14:03 <dbaron> Janina: I think in an English class many years ago we were taught that if you wanted to emphasize something you use italics and if you really want to emphasize it you bold it.
17:14:16 <dbaron> anne: But you also put a bunch of other things in italics.
17:14:18 <fantasai> cyns, but <i> /doesn't/ "do this" (put things in italics) in renderings that dont' support it
17:14:19 <oedipus> cyns, agree that the <i> and <b> parts need to be more harmonic
17:14:26 <dbaron> Janina: to set them apart...
17:14:30 <dbaron> anne: Why not let them use <i>?
17:14:37 <fantasai> cyns, such as voice or braille or TTY interfaces
17:14:43 <dbaron> Janina: I have no problem with them using <i>; I think we're making too much of this.
17:14:54 <dbaron> [multiple conversations]
17:15:11 <oedipus> the only reason italics and bold were used for emphasis is that there isn't any means other than underlining or changing fonts or using italics or bold in print, that shouldn't limit/lead our work on semantic MLs
17:15:26 <dbaron> maciej: Time to adjourn; people are welcome to continue discussion informally.
17:15:31 <dbaron> Meeting adjourned.
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17:19:08 <seungjae> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:19:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html seungjae
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17:58:09 <ormaaj> heh, in some contexts we work hard to explicitly bind (especially relational) semantics to elements a la RDFa, and in a few exceptional cases give tags implicit semantic meaning (and implicit presentational qualities).
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20:19:17 <MikeSmith> issue-122?
20:19:17 <trackbot> ISSUE-122 -- alt text and description for Lady of Shalott example -- open
20:19:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/122
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20:42:07 <MikeSmith> action-191?
20:42:07 <trackbot> ACTION-191 -- Janina Sajka to to: Janina to ask Laura to combine working from proposal items 2 and 4 -- due 2010-11-11 -- OPEN
20:42:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/191
20:42:08 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-191: To: Janina to ask Laura to combine working from proposal items 2 and 4 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
20:44:01 <MikeSmith> action-191: moved to a11y TF action 70
20:44:01 <trackbot> ACTION-191 To: Janina to ask Laura to combine working from proposal items 2 and 4 notes added
20:44:13 <MikeSmith> close action 191
20:44:17 <MikeSmith> close action-191
20:44:17 <trackbot> ACTION-191 To: Janina to ask Laura to combine working from proposal items 2 and 4 closed
20:44:27 <MikeSmith> action 192?
20:44:27 <trackbot> Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
20:44:34 <MikeSmith> action-192?
20:44:34 <trackbot> ACTION-192 -- Frank Olivier to provide mapping from media accessibility requirements doc to spec changes or guidelines for UAs -- due 2010-11-11 -- OPEN
20:44:34 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/192
20:44:35 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-192: provide mapping from media accessibility requirements doc to spec changes or guidelines for UAs - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
20:45:37 <MikeSmith> action-192: moved to a11y TF action 71
20:45:37 <trackbot> ACTION-192 provide mapping from media accessibility requirements doc to spec changes or guidelines for UAs notes added
20:45:52 <MikeSmith> close action-192
20:45:52 <trackbot> ACTION-192 provide mapping from media accessibility requirements doc to spec changes or guidelines for UAs closed
20:53:39 <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 11196] Please add a way to hide the Working Draft warning" (3 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0402.html> 4** [Bug 11278] New: fix the damn javascript in this page, it makes firefox freeze under ubuntu <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0399.html>
21:08:22 <MikeSmith> action-194?
21:08:22 <trackbot> ACTION-194 -- Gregory Rosmaita to draft a change proposal to issue 31 to update the definition of img element -- due 2010-11-12 -- OPEN
21:08:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/194
21:08:23 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-194: Draft a change proposal to issue 31 to update the definition of img element - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
21:10:39 <MikeSmith> action-194: moved to a11y TF action 72
21:10:39 <trackbot> ACTION-194 Draft a change proposal to issue 31 to update the definition of img element notes added
21:10:49 <MikeSmith> close action-194
21:10:49 <trackbot> ACTION-194 Draft a change proposal to issue 31 to update the definition of img element closed
21:13:00 <MikeSmith> action-195?
21:13:00 <trackbot> ACTION-195 -- Gregory Rosmaita to - propose replacement example for lady of shallot example of purely decorative use of image with code example of one of the use cases provided in prose introducing the example -- due 2010-11-12 -- OPEN
21:13:00 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/195
21:13:01 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-195: - propose replacement example for lady of shallot example of purely decorative use of image with code example of one of the use cases provided in prose introducing the example - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
21:17:58 <MikeSmith> action-195: moved to a11y TF action 73
21:17:58 <trackbot> ACTION-195 - propose replacement example for lady of shallot example of purely decorative use of image with code example of one of the use cases provided in prose introducing the example notes added
21:18:11 <MikeSmith> close action-195
21:18:11 <trackbot> ACTION-195 - propose replacement example for lady of shallot example of purely decorative use of image with code example of one of the use cases provided in prose introducing the example closed
21:18:38 <MikeSmith> action-197?
21:18:38 <trackbot> ACTION-197 -- Steve Faulkner to update change proposal on bug 10592 -- due 2010-11-12 -- OPEN
21:18:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/197
21:18:40 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10592 faulkner.steve, P1, RESOLVED NEEDSINFO, 13"h1 to h6 element that does have an hgroup ancestor" not listed in ARIA section
21:18:41 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-197: Update change proposal on bug 10592 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
21:21:55 <MikeSmith> action-197: moved to a11y TF action 74
21:21:55 <trackbot> ACTION-197 Update change proposal on bug 10592 notes added
21:22:08 <MikeSmith> close action-197
21:22:09 <trackbot> ACTION-197 Update change proposal on bug 10592 closed
21:22:11 <pimpbot> planet: HTML5 Form Elements Browser Support <11http://thebrowsereview.com/html5/html5-form-elements-browser-support/>
21:30:01 <MikeSmith> action-198?
21:30:01 <trackbot> ACTION-198 -- Steve Faulkner to update change proposal for bug 10594 and 10603 -- due 2010-11-12 -- OPEN
21:30:01 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/198
21:30:02 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10594 faulkner.steve, P1, RESOLVED WONTFIX, 13conforming use of various aria attributes not specified
21:30:03 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-198: Update change proposal for bug 10594 and 10603 - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
21:35:17 <MikeSmith> action-198: moved to a11y TF action 75
21:35:17 <trackbot> ACTION-198 Update change proposal for bug 10594 and 10603 notes added
21:35:18 <pimpbot> 11http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10594 faulkner.steve, P1, RESOLVED WONTFIX, 13conforming use of various aria attributes not specified
21:35:28 <MikeSmith> close action 198
22:24:02 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11279] New: the "assigned access key" section doesn't seem to know if it's a definition or a requirement. Should probably be rephrased to more correctly use RFC2119. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0403.html>
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22:53:03 <pimpbot> planet: Birthday, Open Data, SDK, Lab Kits, Test Pilot, HTML5, App stores, and more… <11http://blog.mozilla.com/about_mozilla/2010/11/09/birthday-open-data-sdk-lab-kits-test-pilot-html5-app-stores-and-more/>
22:55:04 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11279] the "assigned access key" section doesn't seem to know if it's a definition or a requirement. Should probably be rephrased to more correctly use RFC2119. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0404.html>
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23:53:18 <pimpbot> planet: Status report for October <11http://philikon.wordpress.com/2010/11/09/status-report-for-october/>
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04:52:01 <pimpbot> planet: Mozilla Platform Meeting Minutes: 2010-11-09 <11http://blog.mozilla.com/meeting-notes/archives/426>
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06:52:24 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10809] i18n comment 3 : new attribute: submitdir <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0405.html>
07:22:33 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11281] It work very well. But it have any problem about SVN . If you have some help please suggested me. Thank you very much. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0407.html> 4** [Bug 11281] New: It work very well. But it have any problem about SVN . If you have some help please suggested me. Thank you very much. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0406.html>
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07:52:41 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11282] New: Please don't use section numbers as these tend to change rapidly <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0408.html>
08:35:25 <gavin__> gavin__ has joined #html-wg
08:52:54 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11281] It work very well. But it have any problem about SVN . If you have some help please suggested me. Thank you very much. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0410.html> 4** [Bug 11282] Please don't use section numbers as these tend to change rapidly <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0409.html>
08:53:55 <Julian> Julian has joined #html-wg
09:23:04 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10809] i18n comment 3 : new attribute: submitdir <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0412.html> 4** [Bug 11275] ikjljjpñpñopñiñklñklñklñ djdjfjd djfd kf e elr e kdf dsfj df iasjd asdlk wejied kjsd ijkjqwe ijwq sad iasjd oasjdoasjd asodjqowd <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0411.html>
10:28:59 <Lachy> Lachy has joined #html-wg
10:53:27 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11011] Since Javascript does not support mode specifiers inside the regular expression, there is no simple way of matching a single word case-insensitively besides turning into [Ww][Oo][Rr][Dd] <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0413.html>
11:23:33 <pimpbot> changes: mjs: Update with the latest calls for proposals. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0001.html>
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11:53:40 <pimpbot> planet: BlueGriffon M2 "Kegembiraan" <11http://bluegriffon.org/post/2010/11/10/BlueGriffon-M2-Kegembiraan> 4** Hallvord R. M. Steen: Fix HTML5: help us test hidden input default value change <11http://my.opera.com/hallvors/blog/show.dml/21260402>
12:19:15 <anne> anne has joined #html-wg
12:23:46 <pimpbot> changes: mjs: Record call for counter-proposals for issue 124. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0002.html>
12:23:47 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10019] Native user agent support for exposing longdesc to all users <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0414.html>
12:27:25 <tinkster> tinkster has joined #html-wg
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13:24:02 <pimpbot> changes: sam: Issue-27: call for advocates <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0005.html> 4** sam: Move comment <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0004.html> 4** sam: Link to calls <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0003.html>
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13:54:10 <pimpbot> changes: sam: make action an action <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0006.html>
13:54:11 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11235] Support a rel attribute that restricts cookie transmission <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0415.html>
14:24:17 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11235] Support a rel attribute that restricts cookie transmission <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0417.html> 4** [Bug 11283] New: html5 video <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0416.html>
14:54:25 <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 11235] Support a rel attribute that restricts cookie transmission" (3 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0419.html>
15:24:34 <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 11285] You're missing an "and" or something here, it's not clear when the last clause is applicable: if the algorithm was invoked in the attribute mode, any occurrences of the """ character by the string "&quot;", or if it was not, any occurrences of the "<" cha" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0423.html> 4** [Bug 11285] New: You're missing an "and" or something here, it's not clea
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16:54:56 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11283] html5 video <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0424.html>
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17:55:06 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11287] 'setCustomValidity' call in <input> element should use 'oninput' event... <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0431.html> 4** [Bug 11287] New: 'setCustomValidity' call in <input> element should use 'oninput' event... <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0430.html> 4** [Bug 11196] Please add a way to hide the Working Draft warning <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Publi
17:55:07 <pimpbot> planet: HTML5 Forms Validation in Firefox 4 <11http://blog.oldworld.fr/index.php?post/2010/11/17/HTML5-Forms-Validation-in-Firefox-4> 4** Hardware Acceleration in the latest Firefox 4 beta <11http://blog.mozilla.com/joe/2010/11/10/fx4b7-hwaccel/>
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18:55:22 <pimpbot> changes: sam: Update issue 128 <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0007.html>
18:55:23 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11278] fix the damn javascript in this page, it makes firefox freeze under ubuntu <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0433.html> 4** [Bug 11011] Since Javascript does not support mode specifiers inside the regular expression, there is no simple way of matching a single word case-insensitively besides turning into [Ww][Oo][Rr][Dd] <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0432.html>
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20:55:51 <pimpbot> planet: Firefox 4 for Mac OS X: Under the Hood <11http://boomswaggerboom.wordpress.com/2010/11/10/firefox-4-for-mac-os-x-under-the-hood/>
21:56:04 <pimpbot> changes: sam: Record second change proposal for issue 124 <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0008.html>
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22:56:18 <pimpbot> planet: Fasten Your Seatbelts – Firefox 4 Beta adds new JavaScript power and faster graphics <11http://blog.mozilla.com/blog/2010/11/10/fasten-your-seatbelts-latest-firefox-4-beta-boosts-speed-in-the-browser/> 4** Apparently Amazon is stepping right into HTML5 and using... <11http://blog.zpao.com/post/1536418386>
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00:36:23 <MikeSmith> issue-124?
00:36:23 <trackbot> ISSUE-124 -- nofollow/noreferrer not allowed on <link> -- open
00:36:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/124
00:36:24 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-124: nofollow/noreferrer not allowed on - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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00:56:47 <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Add dirname='' feature (may still be renamed or changed if someone comes up with a better solution) (whatwg r5676) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0009.html>
00:56:48 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10807] i18n comment 1 : new attribute: ubi <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0438.html> 4** [Bug 10821] i18n comment 17 : setting input and textarea element direction through browser UI should set the dir attribute and trigger oninput event <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0437.html> 4** [Bug 10809] i18n comment 3 : new attribute: submitdir <11http://lists.w3.org/Arc
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01:26:52 <pimpbot> changes: hixie: Reword some <ubi> requirements and correct some typos. (whatwg r5677) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0010.html>
01:26:53 <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 10807] i18n comment 1 : new attribute: ubi" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0439.html>
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01:57:00 <pimpbot> changes: 2Dapi; hixie: allow warning to be closed <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0013.html> 4** microdata; hixie: allow warning to be closed <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0012.html> 4** hixie: allow warning to be closed <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0011.html>
01:57:01 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11196] Please add a way to hide the Working Draft warning <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0440.html>
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02:27:11 <pimpbot> changes: hixie: tweak wording and add an example to make things clearer (whatwg r5678) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-diffs/2010Nov/0014.html>
02:27:12 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11289] New: *novels*? Please cite at least one of them, it sounds interesting! <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0443.html> 4** "[Bug 10827] i18n comment 23 : script dialog text direction" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0442.html>
02:57:19 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11211] Need a way to force a line wrap with the bidi semantics of LINE SEPARATOR when necessary. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0445.html> 4** [Bug 11289] *novels*? Please cite at least one of them, it sounds interesting! <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0444.html>
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06:58:19 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8506] The value of a hidden-state input element as defined here does not have a concept of a defaultValue. <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0447.html> 4** [Bug 11291] New: fuck you bitch suck my cock <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0446.html>
07:58:37 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11291] fuck you bitch suck my cock <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0448.html>
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08:58:48 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10809] i18n comment 3 : new attribute: submitdir <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0452.html> 4** [Bug 11294] New: update prose about HTTP Link header <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0451.html> 4** [Bug 11293] New: please update WEBLINK ref <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0450.html> 4** [Bug 11292] New: The poster attribute gi
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09:28:55 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11295] New: Make script-inserted external scripts that have .async=false execute in the insertion order, default to true <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0454.html> 4** [Bug 11292] The poster attribute gives the address of an image file that the user <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0453.html>
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10:29:10 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11289] *novels*? Please cite at least one of them, it sounds interesting! <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0456.html> 4** [Bug 8885] Fallback mechanism for embedded content <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0455.html>
10:59:17 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11297] New: ß@˜Ó×ö¾ÍŒ¦ÁË Logo Google Ëь¤ Ëь¤ Ëь¤ Cross Frame: Åc²»Í¬¾WÓòµÄ Frame ×ö»¥„Ó ´ËƪÎÄÕÂ×î½ü¸üЕrégžé2010-10-07 11:52:56 Ä¿Ç°¹²ÓÐ1ƪÁôÑÔ ÏàêP˜Ë»`£º * flash iframe ²»Í¬ html * ²»Í¬¾WÓò * Cross Document Messaging * flash Cross Frame * fr <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0458.html> 4** [Bug 11296] New: dirn
10:59:18 <pimpbot> planet: First impressions of Tokyo <11http://www.brucelawson.co.uk/2010/first-impressions-of-tokyo/>
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11:59:30 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11298] New: Surrogate catching doesn't belong in input stream preprocessing <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0459.html>
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12:29:38 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11299] The IDL for HTMLVideoElement has a syntax error: "[PutForwards=value attribute DOMSettableTokenList audio;" <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0462.html> 4** [Bug 11299] New: The IDL for HTMLVideoElement has a syntax error: "[PutForwards=value attribute DOMSettableTokenList audio;" <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0461.html> 4** [Bug 9659] Initial U+0000 should 
12:59:44 <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 11274] Missing ] after [PutForwards=value for HTMLVideoElement.audio" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0465.html> 4** "[Bug 11299] The IDL for HTMLVideoElement has a syntax error: "[PutForwards=value attribute DOMSettableTokenList audio;"" (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0463.html>
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13:18:22 <thugbot> [localhost] MikeSmith: I can't reach bugzilla
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16:00:54 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11291] fuck you bitch suck my cock <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0466.html>
16:00:55 <pimpbot> planet: HTML5 Script Execution Changes in Firefox 4 Beta 7 <11http://hsivonen.iki.fi/script-execution/>
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17:00:31 <paulc> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2010OctDec/0012.html
17:00:32 <pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-11-11: status of actions, calls, issues, Task Force reports from Maciej Stachowiak on 2010-11-10 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
17:00:39 <mjs> mjs has joined #html-wg
17:00:48 <paulc> scribenick: paulc
17:00:54 <paulc> chair: mjs
17:00:56 <eliot> eliot has joined #html-wg
17:01:12 <mjs> good morning folks
17:01:22 <rubys> trackbot, start meeting
17:01:24 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:01:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-wg
17:01:26 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be html_wg
17:01:26 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see HTML_WG()12:00PM already started
17:01:26 <Julian> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:01:27 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Weekly Teleconference
17:01:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.251.280.aaaa, [Microsoft], [Apple]
17:01:27 <trackbot> Date: 11 November 2010
17:01:36 <rubys> scribenick: paulc
17:01:40 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] has paulc
17:01:41 <Zakim> +paulc; got it
17:01:42 <rubys> chair: mjs
17:01:46 <Julian> Zakim, +1.251.280.aaaa is me
17:01:47 <adrianba> adrianba has joined #html-wg
17:01:47 <Zakim> + +1.206.850.aabb
17:01:47 <Zakim> +Julian; got it
17:01:56 <Zakim> +Radhika_Roy
17:02:04 <eliot> zakim, +1.206.850.aab is me
17:02:04 <Zakim> +eliot; got it
17:02:15 <rubys> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2010OctDec/0012.html
17:02:16 <pimpbot> Title: {agenda} HTML WG Telecon 2010-11-11: status of actions, calls, issues, Task Force reports from Maciej Stachowiak on 2010-11-10 (public-html-wg-announce@w3.org from October to December 2010) (at lists.w3.org)
17:02:35 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
17:02:49 <adrianba> zakim, [Microsoft.a] has adrianba
17:02:49 <Zakim> +adrianba; got it
17:02:57 <Zakim> + +1.919.247.aacc
17:03:14 <rubys> zakim, aacc is me
17:03:14 <Zakim> +rubys; got it
17:03:50 <paulc> what conference is this?
17:03:52 <Dzung_Tran> Dzung_Tran has joined #html-wg
17:03:57 <Zakim> +Mike
17:04:07 <paulc> zakim, what conference is this?
17:04:13 <Zakim> this is HTML_WG()12:00PM conference code 4865
17:04:19 <janina> janina has joined #html-wg
17:04:23 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
17:04:28 <janina> zakim, call janina
17:04:29 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
17:04:31 <Zakim> +Janina
17:04:44 <paulc> is plh here yet?
17:04:53 <arronei> arronei has joined #html-wg
17:05:02 <paulc> zakim, who is here?
17:05:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Julian, [Microsoft], [Apple], eliot, Radhika_Roy, [Microsoft.a], rubys, MikeSmith, Michael_Cooper, Janina
17:05:06 <Zakim> [Microsoft.a] has adrianba
17:05:08 <Zakim> [Microsoft] has paulc
17:05:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see arronei, janina, Dzung_Tran, adrianba, Zakim, eliot, mjs, mfoladar, paulc, rubys, tH, fantasai, Martijnc, gavin, Marco_Ranon, aroben, pimpbot, kliehm, oedipus,
17:05:13 <Zakim> ... MikeSmith, anne, davidb, sideshow, Jedi, gsnedders, CIA-1, ed, Yudai, Julian, kennyluck, Hixie, gavin__, inimino, heycam, krijnh, Dashiva, jwm, jmb, Shunsuke, Philip, jgraham,
17:05:18 <Zakim> ... webben, drry, karl, trackbot, RRSAgent
17:05:18 <oedipus> regrets+ Gregory_Rosmaita
17:05:43 <paulc> Topic: ACTION items due this week
17:05:49 <paulc> ACTION-29?
17:05:49 <trackbot> ACTION-29 -- Philippe Le Hégaret to follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring -- due 2010-11-07 -- OPEN
17:05:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29
17:05:50 <pimpbot> Title: ACTION-29: Follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:05:58 <paulc> PLH is not present to comment.
17:06:12 <paulc> ACTION-29 due in one week
17:06:12 <trackbot> ACTION-29 Follow up on the idea of a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring due date now in one week
17:06:25 <paulc> TOPIC: New issues this week
17:06:25 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.aa]
17:06:32 <paulc> ISSUE-141?
17:06:32 <trackbot> ISSUE-141 -- Allow definition lists to markup dialogue -- raised
17:06:32 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/141
17:06:34 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-141: Allow definition lists to markup dialogue - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:07:12 <paulc> Asks that the elements for definitions be also usable for dialogues.
17:07:15 <MikeSmith> q?
17:07:27 <paulc> Topic: Items closes last week
17:07:33 <paulc> Issue-121?
17:07:33 <trackbot> ISSUE-121 -- Do not ignore HTTP caching rules -- closed
17:07:33 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/121
17:07:34 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-121: Do not ignore HTTP caching rules - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:07:56 <paulc> This issue was closed without prejudice since no change proposal was submitted by the deadline.
17:08:21 <paulc> Topic: Items closing this week
17:08:27 <paulc> Issue-125?
17:08:27 <trackbot> ISSUE-125 -- Requirement to break RFC 2616 compliance with respect to single quotes not needed for legacy content -- raised
17:08:27 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/125
17:08:28 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-125: Requirement to break RFC 2616 compliance with respect to single quotes not needed for legacy content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:08:38 <paulc> Change proposals are due Nov 13
17:08:45 <paulc> Issue-126?
17:08:45 <trackbot> ISSUE-126 -- Requirement to break RFC 2616 compliance with respect to backslashes not needed for legacy content -- raised
17:08:45 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/126
17:08:47 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-126: Requirement to break RFC 2616 compliance with respect to backslashes not needed for legacy content - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:08:54 <paulc> Change proposals are due Nov 13
17:09:24 <Julian> q+
17:09:41 <mjs> http://dev.w3.org/html5/status/issue-status.html
17:09:42 <pimpbot> Title: Change Proposal Status (at dev.w3.org)
17:09:44 <Julian> q-
17:09:56 <paulc> Julian: I intend to do a change proposal for -125 but maybe not -126.
17:10:18 <paulc> Topic: Items closing next week
17:10:19 <paulc> None
17:10:29 <paulc> Topic: New calls this week
17:10:37 <paulc> There are 7 new calls.
17:10:49 <paulc> 4 calls for new issues.
17:10:54 <paulc> issue-130?
17:10:54 <trackbot> ISSUE-130 -- allow tables to be used for layout purposes -- raised
17:10:54 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/130
17:10:55 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-130: allow tables to be used for layout purposes - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:11:22 <paulc> issue-132?
17:11:22 <trackbot> ISSUE-132 -- Drop the color input type -- raised
17:11:22 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/132
17:11:23 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-132: Drop the color input type - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:11:42 <paulc> Change proposals for issue -130 and -132 are due Dec 10.
17:11:51 <paulc> issue-133?
17:11:51 <trackbot> ISSUE-133 -- Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) -- raised
17:11:51 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133
17:11:52 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-133: Add a modal attribute to html5 to indicate a modal segment of the DOM (modal dialog) - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:12:36 <paulc> Issue-137?
17:12:36 <trackbot> ISSUE-137 -- Since Javascript does not support mode specifiers inside the regular expression, there is no simple way of matching a single word case-insensitively besides turning into [Ww][Oo][Rr][Dd] -- raised
17:12:36 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/137
17:12:37 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-137: Since Javascript does not support mode specifiers inside the regular expression, there is no simple way of matching a single word case-insensitively besides turning into [Ww][Oo][Rr][Dd] - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:12:56 <paulc> Change proposals for -133 and -137 are also due by Dec 10.
17:13:22 <paulc> Chair: Any questions on first four?
17:13:29 <paulc> WG; No questions
17:13:39 <paulc> Issue-124?
17:13:39 <trackbot> ISSUE-124 -- nofollow/noreferrer not allowed on <link> -- open
17:13:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/124
17:13:41 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-124: nofollow/noreferrer not allowed on - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
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17:14:14 <paulc> There was a call for counter proposals for -124 and this has caused immediate activity - eg. counter proposal and revision to the original proposal.
17:14:22 <paulc> Julian: Do you have comments?
17:14:44 <paulc> Julian:  The granularity for this proposal may be incorrect.
17:14:58 <paulc> Julian: There may be two separate issues here.
17:15:23 <paulc> Julian: Perhaps issue -124's target could be changed.
17:15:56 <paulc> Chair: Chairs will take this under advisement - either do two questions in the survey or split the original issue.
17:16:20 <paulc> Julian: I will probably do two separate change propoals for -124 for the two parts.
17:16:25 <paulc> issue-128?
17:16:25 <trackbot> ISSUE-128 -- Authors should be able to use <figure> where <img> can be used -- open
17:16:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/128
17:16:26 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-128: Authors should be able to use where can be used - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:17:27 <paulc> The Chairs have issued a call for interest in further proposals for -128 since we already have a proposal and counter-proposal.
17:17:35 <paulc> This plan saves 3 weeks of time.
17:17:39 <rubys> rubys has joined #html-wg
17:17:46 <paulc> The response on -128 is due Nov 17.
17:17:52 <paulc> ISSUE-27?
17:17:52 <trackbot> ISSUE-27 -- @rel value ownership, registry consideration -- open
17:17:52 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/27
17:17:54 <pimpbot> Title: ISSUE-27: @rel value ownership, registry consideration - HTML Weekly Tracker (at www.w3.org)
17:18:08 <paulc> There are new proposals as a result of the F2F discussion.
17:18:43 <paulc> Therefore since there are a lot of proposals here the Chairs have issue a call for "expression of support for the existing proposals" by Nov 19.
17:18:57 <paulc> Topic: Task Force reports
17:19:08 <paulc> Testing Task force first?
17:19:42 <paulc> Neither Kris or Philippe are here.
17:19:52 <paulc> mjs: We had two sessions at the F2F.
17:20:29 <paulc> mjs: The F2F stepped thru the wiki instructions on how to create tests and mjs believes we improved them since new participants were able to submit new tests.
17:20:57 <paulc> mjs: It is not that difficult to create tests as evidenced by the F2F success of creating new tests.
17:21:12 <paulc> Accessibility Task Force?
17:21:28 <paulc> Janina: The A11Y sessions at TPAC made a lot of progress.
17:21:46 <paulc> Janina: We have some way to go on Canvas but made a lot of progress on Media.
17:21:57 <paulc> Janina: ARIA integration should be done soon as well.
17:22:20 <paulc> Janina: Concerns are that Canvas could be used as a UI and this needs to be made accessible.
17:22:33 <paulc> Janina: The Canvas sub-team is going to start meeting weekly.
17:22:44 <paulc> Janina: ARIA sub-team should be done next week.
17:23:11 <Zakim> +Mike
17:23:14 <paulc> Janina: Frank O stepped the F2F thru all the Media User Requirements and the meeting discovered that most were User Agent requirements.
17:23:28 <MikeSmith> Zakim, drop Mike
17:23:28 <Zakim> Mike is being disconnected
17:23:30 <Zakim> -Mike
17:23:40 <paulc> Janina: There were only 11 requirements on the main HTML5 spec itself.
17:23:42 <Zakim> +Mike
17:24:08 <paulc> Janina: Many of the requirements are on the captioning format.
17:24:39 <paulc> Janina: Media task force will be looking at TTML and WebSRT next week in a longer session - 3.5 hours!
17:25:02 <paulc> Janina: The TPAC has given the work quite a boost.
17:25:12 <paulc> No questions.
17:25:24 <paulc> Topic: Other busines
17:25:35 <paulc> None.
17:25:48 <paulc> Topic: Scribe and chair for next meeting
17:25:55 <paulc> Paul C will chair.
17:26:15 <paulc> Any volunteers to scribe.
17:26:22 <paulc> MJS volunteers to scribe.
17:26:27 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.aa]
17:26:31 <paulc> Topic: Adjournment
17:26:32 <Zakim> -Julian
17:26:34 <Zakim> -Radhika_Roy
17:26:36 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
17:26:36 <Zakim> -Janina
17:26:37 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:26:38 <Zakim> -rubys
17:26:40 <Zakim> -[Apple]
17:26:44 <janina> janina has left #html-wg
17:26:44 <paulc> Meeting adjourned at :26 mins after the hour.
17:26:45 <Zakim> -eliot
17:26:47 <Zakim> -MikeSmith.a
17:27:03 <paulc> rrsagent, generate the minutes
17:27:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/04-html-wg-minutes.html paulc
17:27:04 <pimpbot> Title: HTML WG F2F meeting (room 3A) -- 04 Nov 2010 (at www.w3.org)
17:27:26 <paulc> oops the date on the minutes is wrong
17:27:33 <Dzung_Tran_> Dzung_Tran_ has joined #html-wg
17:27:35 <paulc> RRSAgent thinks we are still in Lyon
17:28:15 <eliot> eliot agrees w/ RRSAgent that we should still be in France.....
17:28:45 <paulc> Mike: are you still here?
17:28:49 <MikeSmith> yup
17:28:57 <paulc> How do we fix the minutes?
17:29:11 <paulc> RRSAgent thinks we are still doing the Nov 4 minutes.
17:29:41 <MikeSmith> lemme ask the systems team
17:29:50 <paulc> I think we told the agent that the meeting covered more than one day and have not turned that off
17:30:06 <oedipus> mikesmith, you might have to hand-edit the minutes to separate them at this point...
17:30:28 <paulc> When you get the minutes fixed at http://www.w3.org/2010/11/11-html-wg-minutes.html please let me know and I will send them out.
17:30:44 <MikeSmith> paulc: will do
17:30:48 <paulc> Thanks.
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17:42:39 <MikeSmith> RRSAgent, start a new log
17:46:46 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
18:01:49 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11300] New: Remove form owner from scope chain in event handlers <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0467.html>
18:01:50 <pimpbot> planet: Making your add-on compatible with Firefox 4 <11http://blog.mozilla.com/addons/2010/11/11/making-add-on-compatible-firefox-4/> 4** Firefox 4: HTML5 Forms <11http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/11/firefox-4-html5-forms/>
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18:31:57 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11291] fuck you bitch suck my cock <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0471.html> 4** [Bug 11295] Make script-inserted external scripts that have .async=false execute in the insertion order, default to true <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0470.html> 4** [Bug 11301] "Run" and "execute" shouldn't mean different things, it's extremely confusing. Rename "run" to "attempt t
18:35:01 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, MikeSmith, in HTML_WG()12:00PM
18:35:02 <Zakim> HTML_WG()12:00PM has ended
18:35:06 <Zakim> Attendees were [Apple], paulc, +1.206.850.aabb, Julian, Radhika_Roy, eliot, [Microsoft], adrianba, +1.919.247.aacc, rubys, MikeSmith, Michael_Cooper, Janina
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19:32:12 <pimpbot> bugmail: "[Bug 11211] Need a way to force a line wrap with the bidi semantics of LINE SEPARATOR when necessary." (2 messages in thread) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0474.html> 4** [Bug 11300] Remove form owner from scope chain in event handlers <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0472.html>
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20:02:19 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11299] The IDL for HTMLVideoElement has a syntax error: "[PutForwards=value attribute DOMSettableTokenList audio;" <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0476.html> 4** [Bug 11297] �@����͌��� Logo Google �ь� �ь� �ь� Cross Frame: �c��ͬ�W��� Frame ��� ��ƪ��ï
20:02:20 <pimpbot> planet: Take advantage of Windows Summit 2010 to learn about IE9 <11http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2010/11/11/take-advantage-of-windows-summit-2010-to-learn-about-ie9.aspx> 4** Check out Google’s latest cloud technologies at Cloudstock! <11http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/blogspot/Dcni/~3/nc1BI9iTLX0/check-out-googles-latest-cloud.html>
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21:02:30 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11289] *novels*? Please cite at least one of them, it sounds interesting! <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0478.html> 4** [Bug 11302] New: In 'A start tag whose tag name is "select"' perhaps the first step needs to be somethiing like: "If the current node is an option element then act as if an end tag with the tag name "option"had been seen." Similar statements in the same section for the op <11http://lis
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21:32:46 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11304] New: Update "(the item="" and itemprop="" attributes)" <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0480.html> 4** [Bug 11303] New: "extensions to the predefined set of link types" is not xreffed <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0479.html>
22:02:54 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 11305] Remove stuff present in DOM Core <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0482.html> 4** [Bug 11305] New: Remove stuff present in DOM Core <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0481.html>
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23:03:08 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 8716] Replace img Guidance for Conformance Checkers with Suggested Text for Short Text Alternatives <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0492.html> 4** [Bug 10708] change normative alt text authoring requirements to informative advice <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0491.html> 4** [Bug 10661] use an ISO 639-2 specified language for HTML5 documents <11http://lists.w3.or
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23:33:16 <pimpbot> bugmail: [Bug 10066] replace section 3.2.6 with the alternative spec text provided (ARIA) <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0505.html> 4** [Bug 10903] provide an introduction to wai-aria in the wai aria section of the spec <11http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-bugzilla/2010Nov/0504.html> 4** "[Bug 10642] No alternative text description for video key frame (poster)" (2 messages in thread) <11http://list