IRC log of tpac on 2010-11-03

Timestamps are in UTC.

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logging to
07:12:33 [Jean-Gui]
Zakim, call Forum_2
07:12:33 [Zakim]
sorry, Jean-Gui, I don't know what conference this is
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07:14:05 [wcarr]
will the audio stream be listed here?
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07:15:05 [anne]
what is the room for the plenary day?
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07:25:04 [anne]
no mention of RDF
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07:25:46 [anne]
RDF draws first blood?
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07:29:29 [glazou]
nobody minuting ?
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07:29:57 [glazou]
... fill the WBS form and give us feedback
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07:30:01 [amy]
meeting: TPAC
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07:30:05 [amy]
scribe: amy
07:30:06 [glazou]
... now moderator for first session
07:30:16 [glazou]
tx amy
07:30:18 [amy]
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07:30:41 [amy]
Noah: as Jeff said, the theme for this session is integration
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07:31:32 [amy]
... one other thing. many of you know I am chair of the TAG. it is the senior technical body responsible for the web. the reason I mention this is that 5 of our 9 members are chosen by election. This year 3 are up for election. Having you choose the best people is important to our success.
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07:31:59 [amy]
... it's always the case when I someone says "you should work on security", I think "do we have security experts on the TAG."
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07:32:45 [amy]
... skills which are needed are both technical ones and integration. we also need to solve real problems for real people. we need people who can work well with others (and who can also write)
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07:33:40 [amy]
... it's important we have a good slate of strong candidates. current or former TAG are here, i encourage you to speak to them, and to look at the TAG pages. Raman asked me to say that he is one of the incumbents who is not running. You'd be welcome to speak to him
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07:35:10 [amy]
... our first speaker is Jeni Tennison. The Semantic Web has had increasing success in government, etc. The SW has not seemed to reach the same velocity as early web. We've invited Jeni as she's one of people that the smartest, most tasteful people look up to
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07:35:41 [amy]
Jeni: Thank you for that kind introduction. One of my roles is that I am the linked data advisor on Linked Data gov. uk
07:35:43 [jeanne]
zakim, code?
07:35:43 [Zakim]
sorry, jeanne, I don't know what conference this is
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07:36:22 [amy]
.... I'm not a SW evangelist. years ago I thought SW was a pipe dream. now i view my role as making sure not just to used linked data "because Tim Berners-Lee says so". I want to make sure that RDF works.
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07:36:38 [amy]
... I don't particularly care whether RDF or SW reach escape velocity. I care whether data is useful.
07:36:55 [amy]
... working w/ gov sites is like working w/ the WWW but with more committees
07:37:11 [amy]
... I'll explain what i see as the the hurdles, and where the community and W3C should focus
07:37:30 [amy]
... I've taken this as an excuse to have a bit of a rant and say things i wouldn't normally say to people's faces
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07:38:04 [amy]
... the world is very different from 10 years ago when I said SW wouldn't work. there is a lot of effort to use data in many ways
07:38:18 [amy]
... many of these uses, visualization, they're like pre-web. no way to go deeper into the data
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07:38:41 [dom]
dom has changed the topic to: TPAC Plenary day | Back channel in #tpac-chat
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07:38:44 [Steven]
zakim, list
07:38:44 [Zakim]
I see no active conferences and none scheduled to start in the next 15 minutes
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07:38:52 [amy]
... I think we're heading toward a world where we'll want deeper interaction w/ data. "data you can click on" (a Stuart Williams phrase) will be useful
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07:39:09 [amy]
... However, just because you can get a hold of data doesn't mean you can use it
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07:39:17 [amy]
... (shows excel on crime data)
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07:40:04 [amy]
... What do these rows relate to? what is the definition of an acquaintance? what we often find w/ gov data is that the data is available but how you interpret it is hidden so there's no way of finding what it means
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07:40:51 [amy]
... also, to understand changes we need either links or implicit information. to get deeper interaction we need more sources
07:41:18 [nick]
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07:41:41 [amy]
... RDF is a good approach to tackle these challenges. identifying things w/ uris helps in several ways. you can create mashups which link to things. you can also get extra info at the link, extra context
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07:42:00 [amy]
... you get a value model that lets you combine extra value w/out terms, end user agreements, etc
07:42:20 [amy]
... The other thing is that info w/ uris can be referenced not copied. For eg: BBC uses wikipedia
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07:42:50 [amy]
... There are huge opportunities for the reference vs. copy info. Prevents out of date info too. Referencing using URIs is increasingly familiar
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07:43:11 [amy]
... Why is it that RDF is not being used? Let's see what developers say
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07:43:35 [amy]
... I was delighted that the Guardian data blog "it's not great fun learning to develop with the semantic web today"
07:43:49 [amy]
... i'm going to try to put myself in dev shoes and see why not
07:44:02 [raman]
network going up and down like a yoyo
07:44:03 [amy]
... (shows RDF stack) it even looks like it's going to fall over on you
07:44:22 [amy]
... they get to see the ugliest syntax first. They think they have to use OWL
07:44:41 [amy]
... none fo this is really true but it's what people assume when they think they have to start here
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07:45:24 [amy]
... If you're consuming this data, is it fun and atttractive? if you compare to JSON, there's an easy map. there are parsers on every platform. even on XML there are standard APIs and simple path languges like CSS
07:45:31 [davy]
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07:45:47 [amy]
... The RDF situtaiton is different. there are multiple syntaxes (lists names)
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07:46:25 [shepazu]
great slides.
07:46:29 [amy]
... It's really hard to know as a publisher what to target and as a developer to know what to expect. There's no standard API to use in code, there's no path language. SPARQL is as close as you get but this is just another language for people to learn.
07:46:33 [shepazu]
and great point.
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07:46:38 [amy]
... as a consumer of data it's not fun to use
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07:46:52 [amy]
... Another question. Is it painless, is it likely to go wrong?
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07:47:20 [amy]
... Generally if you're generating RDF from another structure, you're using technologies like trying to use string cancatonation
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07:47:32 [amy]
... there are a vast array of formats, difficult to use
07:47:53 [paoloba]
07:48:17 [amy]
... Microdata, new proposal is quite verbose. look at RDFa, using a single vocabulary, having to fudge between languages
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07:48:41 [amy]
... I've covered the issues, now I"ll look at what we should do
07:49:01 [amy]
... if Developers are going to be pursuaded to work w/ RDF, RDF needs to meet them
07:49:09 [amy]
... we need easy to follow recipes
07:49:23 [amy]
... we need to focus on the benefits that can be brought to end users
07:49:35 [amy]
... we need to be able to reach behind a visualization for the source of data
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07:50:15 [amy]
... we need to make sure that using RDF increases the value of data, that it gives the ability to control context. a good argument for gov
07:50:24 [amy]
... the more people who use it, the more powerful it becomes
07:50:39 [amy]
... we now have some core hubs - dbpedia, musicBrainz, BBC
07:50:59 [amy]
.. and we have vocabularies which reduces the need for invention which ups the rate of use
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07:51:18 [amy]
... also we have the "everyone else is using it, I should too"
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07:51:36 [amy]
... Linked Data focuses on the useful core technologies. they've created guides and best practices
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07:52:04 [amy]
... we need the publication of data easier for cosumers. then people can make educated choices about how to publish data
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07:52:24 [amy]
... On the consumption side, there's a generic RDF API w/in API. There's a potential for a path language
07:52:39 [amy]
... What we need is something accessible and fun and easy to use, not XML's DOM
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07:52:46 [amy]
... it needs to be used in other contexts
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07:53:06 [amy]
... On the mapping of relational structures in RDF - my concern if they'll be used
07:53:22 [amy]
I've tried to focus on meeting the challenges on this gradually blossoming Web of Data.
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07:53:50 [amy]
... I think it's powerful but it's being avoided due to stigma and misperception. Focus on logic etc. which for publishing data is irrelevant
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07:54:21 [amy]
... What role can W3C play? I've thought long and hard. it's hard to answer. the biggest gaps are in implementations. W3C blessing can help w/ what implemantions to use
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07:54:40 [amy]
... Supporting the profile of RDF - what is currently considered relevant and primers on this
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07:55:06 [amy]
... W3C could also provide a home for community standards. it's hard to trust a vocabularly run by a single person, especially from a gov perspective
07:55:28 [Ian]
Jeni: W3C could sideline "sem web" term and focus on linked data
07:55:33 [amy]
... W3C could also help by sidelingin on 'Semantic web' term and focus on "Linked Data"
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07:56:01 [amy]
... like every community, Linked data is insular and in some ways deaf to outside concerns. We only grow if we listen and change
07:56:01 [dom_bis]
s/Linked Data/Web of Data/
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07:56:29 [dom_bis]
s/Web of Data is insular/Linked Data is insular/
07:56:31 [amy]
... W3C has a wide range of members, it's you, not the SW community, to listen to. Look again at SW, help the web of data blossom into something beautiful
07:56:32 [fjh]
effectively repositioning from technology focus to application focus?
07:56:40 [dom_bis]
s/"Linked Data"/"Web of Data"/
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07:58:24 [amy]
Doug Shepers, W3C: I've tried SW w/ SVG. I keep bumping into not finding the right ontology to solve the problem I"m trying to solve. I've seen some efforts to consolidate ontologies. I want a reference - publishing, animals, etc. - to tell me where related ontologies exist. It's impossible to dig into all fo them . Do you think there's value in W3C making an effort into unifying ontologies
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07:59:29 [amy]
Jeni: I do think that there's legs to that. There's something in the Gov data IG to help recommend to govs which ontologies to use. and how to assess whether one is good to use. it's hard to understand which to use, it's about community and acceptance. what tools are available, is it maintained.
07:59:38 [amy]
... I think this means you need to have curated vs. searchable lists
07:59:46 [amy]
... I think this is role W3C can play
08:00:14 [amy]
Jeff: great talk. great graphics. thank you. You talked about insularity of W3C and SW technoglogies. This is a fair comment. a lot of problems are implimentation
08:00:55 [amy]
... Can you recommend one specific tangible thing we could do tomorrow to break insularity? getting the topic on the table is one step. but how do we change this?
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08:01:38 [amy]
Jeni: Good question. i did on a previous set of slides that developers won't get involved w/ something they dont' care about. The only time people would get involved is when you start reaching out and affect other things. Eg: people looked at RDFa when it was encroaching on HTML
08:01:59 [amy]
... a subversive thing would be to go into other areas, to listen to any objections
08:02:10 [sven_b_]
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08:02:28 [amy]
... I've found the best way to work out what is wrong w/ a technology is to try to teach it. creating primers helps you understand where people might struggle
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08:03:46 [amy]
Noah: You've made clear that ease of use is a challenge and implementations. two threads in how to make complex technolgies easier to use is to simplfy. the other is to keep underlying technology complex but to have tools
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08:04:06 [amy]
... does W3C need to make simplier technologies or do people need to make tools?
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08:04:17 [amy]
Jeni: I think if you need tools it's too complex
08:05:12 [amy]
Roger Cutler, Chevron: You said that the W3C doesn't do things like implementation. Suppose that w3C might do something because there's no place else it's going to get done. if you took that as a starting point, what then could the W3C do along these lines to aid?
08:05:59 [amy]
Jeni: I think that creating a target language a really good parser and API that was well packaged, easy to install. That would be my suggestion. Something actually finished and completed w/ professional quality
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08:06:58 [amy]
Noah: our next talk is by Tim to discuss an effort by him and the TAG on aligning XML and HTML
08:07:35 [amy]
TimBL: This is a topic that's been discussed on lists and meetings like here at length, difficult and hard decisions
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08:07:58 [amy]
... it tends to be a rat hole because there are lots of related intertwined issues both technically and historically
08:07:58 [koalie]
Topic: XML/HTML convergence, by Tim Berners-Lee
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08:08:21 [amy]
... what happened recently is that Raman sent a message saying we should fix it. "form a TF to look at the problem"
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08:08:43 [amy]
... at the end of this presentation there are links including one to this message
08:09:12 [amy]
... there's a serious need for this, a whole community using XML tools to produce their websites. Sometimes they produce XHTML, sometimes XML, often serve as HTML mime type.
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08:09:45 [amy]
... they've benefited from the stuff being in XML, they can scrape site in XML. There's a community used to using these tools. Meanwhile the def of HTML has divorced itself from XML
08:09:46 [dom]
-> TimBL's slides
08:10:01 [amy]
... you can serialize this stuff in XML but most webpages can't be straighforwardly parsed
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08:10:39 [amy]
... one way to define a goal for this work Raman asked for is: 1. to see how much power we can give to the community that uses XML tools 2. to look at the future, to see whether divergence can be decreased, have convergence later on
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08:11:21 [amy]
... what i"m not going to do is go into details of the technical arguments. The TAG has gone into a number of them. There have been lots of suggestions to tweak HTML or XML. This is just an announcement that we'll make this TF - we'll have people on TAG and people not on TAG
08:11:44 [amy]
... I'm not yet announcing who is on the TF. but for those who are new, there are various areas where HMTL and XML have diverged
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08:12:01 [amy]
... HTML will cope w/ <b> <i> </b></i>
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08:12:57 [glazou]
+1 !!!!
08:12:58 [amy]
... there are tricky things where you can send page to XML and XHTML parser, but the famous one is <tbody> inserted by XML parser. but if you write a script that goes through the DOM it will miss the first <tr>
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08:13:18 [amy]
... tricky little things like that. The center of this is in difference in irC
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08:14:01 [amy]
... it's a complicated issue w/ syntax w/out namespaces but a namespace gets generated
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08:14:37 [amy]
... One trick is for mime types which use XHTML, could have parts set up by default. you know you'll get namespaces every time by default
08:14:49 [amy]
... doesn't have to be sent across net every time
08:15:00 [Ralph]
[slide 3]
08:15:07 [Ralph]
[slide 3: Divergence Dimensions]
08:15:37 [amy]
... I put in completely separate bullet is that XML requires attributes. dont' ask me why. it's down on the list as it's a silly problem. easy to see how to map
08:15:52 [amy]
... The last one is a big issue - distributed extensibility
08:16:14 [Ralph]
i/... tricky little things/[slide 3: Divergence Dimensions]
08:16:24 [dom] slide 4
08:16:28 [amy]
... what does this mean anyway? The need is that if one WG makes a spec, that a sub community using the spec, eg: HTML. they can use HTML and put in tags
08:16:44 [Ralph]
[slide 4: Polyglot]
08:16:51 [amy]
... Let me mention that the polygot document is important
08:16:58 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
08:16:58 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
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08:17:22 [amy]
... this document describes how to generate an XML document and put on web as though both XML and HTML there are traps to avoid. this polygot spec tells you what they are
08:17:28 [koalie]
RRSAgent, make logs public
08:17:53 [amy]
... It constrains the syntax (eg: lower case here). don't put in noscript. If you're trying to do this sometimes there are choices eg: <tbody>
08:18:40 [dom]
[slide5: Polygot]
08:18:41 [amy]
... Polygot document very useful. I find the stuff I write is polygot. i forget and tidy them as HTML but keep them as XML
08:18:43 [Ian]
Note to TPAC participants: Please no flash photos.
08:18:43 [Ian]
Thank you.
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08:19:00 [amy]
... Polygot is important.
08:19:19 [koalie]
chair: Jeff
08:19:36 [dom]
[slide6: Distributed Extensibility]
08:19:37 [amy]
... Distributed extensibility isn't just a quirk. It's a difference in values and what people felt were important things to optimize for
08:20:27 [amy]
... On one hand, you say to have interoperability use one syntax. on the other hand, use different syntax, new functionality creeps into system
08:20:45 [amy]
... it's how internet protocols and HTML has arisen in the past. I'd like to look at different examples
08:20:49 [user]
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08:21:02 [amy]
... one example of extensibility is adding SVG to HTML. SVG has always been something which should be in HTML
08:21:32 [DenisBoulay]
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08:21:38 [amy]
... now SVG has been adopted by HTML5. the HTML5 spec now tells you how to put in SVG (instead of pointing at SVG spec). now you can put an SVG tag in by itself
08:21:46 [aizu]
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08:21:59 [amy]
... SVG is being incorporated and a discussion of how to make this happen is happening in HTML
08:22:02 [Steven] XHTML+SVG+MathML (2002)
08:22:18 [Ralph]
s/in HTML/in the HTML Working Group
08:22:18 [amy]
... OTher issue is RDFa, a way to put explicit semantics in a web page. There's a different WG. should be an extension to HTML
08:22:35 [amy]
... Design Authority for this extension is a different group. There's a framework for coordination
08:22:59 [amy]
... Now you have Facebook ML, we found out about it. they use namespaces, they didn't ask us, they didn't check w/ HTML
08:23:35 [Ileana]
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08:23:36 [amy]
... lots of such examples. If an editor saves information about it's current state or version info, there are many things people put in HTML. groups don't want to come and check w/ W3C
08:23:56 [amy]
.... Distributed extensibility means there are a lot of ppl out there who need to use namespaces.
08:24:10 [amy]
... if you have a domain name, you can have a namespace
08:24:28 [mmielke]
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08:24:46 [amy]
... Important to note there is a scale - distributed to extensible
08:24:56 [amy]
... video tags in HTML is obviously happening.
08:25:16 [pchampin]
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08:25:18 [amy]
... The philisophical question is how to value the needs of the people at the bottom of the list vs people at the top of the list
08:25:21 [homata]
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08:25:34 [Ralph]
[slide 7: Scope/Timescale]
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08:25:39 [amy]
... This is not a short term thing. won't be expected to produce comments for last call (maybe will, who knows)
08:25:46 [amy]
... Look for a future path to minimize damage
08:25:49 [dom]
[slide 7 Scope/Timescale]
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08:26:15 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate kennyluck
08:26:19 [amy]
... i respect Raman for raising the temperature here. He said: this is important. everything which has two stacks which is divergent, there's pain for engineering.
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08:26:43 [amy]
... We should look at this, we have large number of people in groups working on low level. it's good to step back and ask whether this is right
08:26:51 [Ralph]
[slide 8: Links]
08:27:33 [amy]
Daniel Glazman, ? : HTML had issues in the start. i think that what you call divergence is XML 2.0 where namespaces are less important
08:28:04 [amy]
... I think this is the future. it's possibly the right time to start thinking about the future of XML. XML as the way it is now is maybe not the best thing for the web on a daily baiss
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08:28:28 [amy]
@@Henri S?@@
08:28:47 [Yves]
s/@@Henri S?@@/Henri Sivonen/
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08:29:06 [amy]
Henri: I've impleimented an HTML 5 parser that exposes the API and co-erces the doc tree into an @@. you can connect them. There's also an HTML serializer
08:29:19 [amy]
... I think this is a solved problem w/ parsers and tools and serializers
08:29:55 [Steven]
08:30:25 [Steven]
08:30:27 [amy]
Noah: next speaker Janina Sajka and expert on accessibility. She'll give us an overview in integrating accessibility features
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08:31:18 [Steven]
rrsagent, make minutes
08:31:18 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Steven
08:31:26 [amy]
Janina: thank you for the invitation to be here. I'm not going to try to talk about everything going on in accessibility
08:31:38 [mgylling_]
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08:31:58 [amy]
... i'm going to try to talk about things I want the wider W3C community to be aware of. HTML is giving us opportunities we haven't previously had w/ specifications which do their best to support accessibility
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08:32:41 [dom]
-> Janina's slides
08:32:46 [amy]
... We've heard the word accessibility. when I say it I'm talking about people who don't see or hear. There's a newer group of those who don't see or hear as well as most in this room. This group is coming and the implications are exciting but let's get there
08:33:02 [dom]
[slide 1: Introduction]
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08:33:10 [amy]
... I'm Janina Sajka. I chair PFWG and co-facilitate HTML Accessibility TF
08:33:49 [amy]
... also at the Linux foundation and editing a document for ISO
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08:34:15 [amy]
... a lot of background in advocacy and in systems deployment
08:34:38 [amy]
... that the professional side but i come first as a consumer
08:35:29 [amy]
... Accessibility really does change lives, it doesn't make them see gives them info they might have seen. doesn't make people see, but gives them words. We want to make sure you don't need a mouse. We're looking to the same things as everyone else on the web. regardless of sensory or motor ability
08:35:35 [dom]
[slide 2: WAI-ARIA—Our 1.0 Story]
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08:36:17 [amy]
... In PF we have ARIA. We're closing in on 1.0. It gives us a language independent way to support access
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08:37:13 [amy]
... it gives a series of standard kinds of tool, controls, interfaces. It's going to be very important. it's our consistent way of dealing w/ similar things regardless of host language
08:37:18 [dom]
[slide 3 : Intentional Events—Our Newest Story]
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08:37:34 [amy]
... Something brand new to us, not to W3C, we've got the opportunity to do "intentional events"
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08:37:48 [Ralph]
s/3 :/4 :/
08:38:14 [amy]
... (undo, zoom, etc). how to map keyboard for undo or zoom, or intentional events common in application interfaces but very different in languages
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08:39:01 [amy]
... idea is to get to work on developing technology. We're being driven here because it's not just mouse, etc. but voice interfaces, etc. It's a whole range of different ways we don't need authors to stumble across
08:39:31 [amy]
... It looks like this will happen in Web Events. this may change but it's our newest story. so stay tuned. we think the implications are far wider than just accessibility
08:39:32 [dom]
[slide 5: The HTML Accessibility Task Force Story]
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08:40:01 [amy]
... Moving on the HTML 5 TF. We formed this together w/ PF + HTML. to work on accessibility recommendations for HTML spec.
08:40:28 [Denis]
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08:40:45 [amy]
... many of our recommendations have been picked up. A few to highlight: Aria. you can not incorporate so have to map ARIA to HTML
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08:41:28 [amy]
... we hope at the end of the day we'll have essentially the same technology for Aria 1.0. We're not quite there yet. this is key expectation esp for applications new in HTML5. should make browsing far more compelling
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08:41:57 [amy]
... Canvas - bitmap, no concept of structure, no @@carrot@@. We've got some solutions there
08:42:13 [Ralph]
08:42:13 [hsivonen]
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08:42:31 [amy]
... We want to make sure that canvas technologies are taken to an extent that HTML5 might rather they weren't. Eg: write @@ text in canvas
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08:42:53 [Ralph]
Janina: without a caret to focus on, how can one programmatically know where to focus a screen magnifier for partially-sighted people?
08:42:58 [amy]
... we are pleased to say this is much further along. Lastly, media. This is one of the most transformative changes in HTML5
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08:43:26 [amy]
... You can see this happening. go shopping for a TV, you can see some come w/ an RJ45 connector. is this just google or another interface?
08:43:48 [amy]
... a convergence of technologies. We think this will be transformative not just for web but for education
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08:44:14 [dom]
[slide 6: Meeting User Needs on Accessible Media]
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08:44:25 [amy]
... It's an enormous challenge to get things right on behalf of accessibility. Fortunately, there's a history here even before the web.
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08:44:51 [Ralph]
[slide 6: Meeting User Needs on Accessible Media]
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08:45:07 [amy]
... Analog broadcasting, we call that video description. During the time when no one is talking another, very characteristic voice, describes what is happening so you can grok what is happening or captions on screens.
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08:45:41 [amy]
... Captions really took off ~25 years ago as result of a law which said that tvs must be sold w/ capacity for decoders
08:46:28 [amy]
... Eg: in a noisy bar, you can turn on caption thing and follow along. This whole area of media accessibility was being called 'captioning'. This is just part of the story. it's improved media capacity
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08:46:59 [shawn]
use inclusive language (not just captions) so that we realize the breadth of issues to be addressed
08:47:09 [amy]
... We also have things such as clear audio, now w/ digital broadcasting you can create a submix to take out most of other sound effects to focus mostly on key portions
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08:47:32 [amy]
... It's a production level thing and being used in UK.
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08:48:10 [amy]
... slides to show how people w/ disabilities are being accommodated in Media
08:48:23 [dom]
[slide 7: Tieing it all Together with Media]
08:48:25 [amy]
... successful industry: e-publishing
08:48:40 [amy]
.. not so important for short YouTube clips, very important for longer lectures, for eg
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08:49:18 [amy]
... What do these technologies mean in the spec? It's not quite rocket science, it's more like building a bike. Synchronizing media streams
08:49:46 [amy]
... Streamable text, Secondary Audio, Secondary Video
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08:50:30 [amy]
... We think this is transformative, we think we can deliver in HTML5. Laws have begun to show up, esp in the US, to make sure that devices support access. We'd like to be the solution for the environment instead of having them invent this for us
08:50:38 [dom]
[slide 8: Thank you]
08:51:02 [amy]
... If any of this interests you the Accessibly TF is an open environment. we want the community to be involved. You are welcome and thank you.
08:51:20 [amy]
Noah: we'll take questions
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08:51:57 [amy]
Sarah @@?: I know there are many different sign language dialects. how do you prevent getting the wrong one
08:52:13 [Ralph]
08:52:16 [amy]
Janina: we hope that there is an option to choose which one to use. There are many which have been defined
08:52:22 [amy]
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08:53:03 [amy]
Thomas: Alexey is having travel problems
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08:54:02 [amy]
Noah: Thomas will be speaking for Alexey on the theme of integration and how we work w/ other standards organizations. IETF is one of the most important connections we have. We invited him to speak from the IETF perspective on what it is like to partner w/ us and how to make this more effective
08:55:31 [amy]
Thomas: These slides were prepared by Alexey Melnikov, peter Saint-Andre and Mark Nottingham
08:55:32 [noah]
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08:56:00 [amy]
... I'll give a brief intro to the IETF, about how W3C and IETF work together and then Conclusions
08:56:32 [amy]
... You probably all know that the Internet Society is not just helping us but is giving the general framework to IAB, IESG,
08:56:42 [Steven]
Janina mentioned that W3C had earlier tried to define abstract events. Here is an earlier attempt:
08:56:58 [Steven]
(Nov 2003)
08:57:05 [amy]
... IAB - appeals function, architectural guidance.
08:57:33 [amy]
... IETF, we mostly work w/ Applictions. There are directors who manage WG. Collectively they act as IES
08:57:57 [mnot]
08:58:05 [amy]
... they also fulfill function of reviewing and approving documents. Area directors are reaching out to community for help
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08:58:34 [amy]
... there are areas of overlap. they're looking for volunteers for review team
08:59:03 [amy]
... Standardization is like and non-alike W3C. You can see cultural difference in slides. you always pick default of slides. There are no formal membership
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08:59:09 [noah]
We are working on getting Jeni's slides posted.
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08:59:31 [noah]
Sorry for the delay, we thought we had it covered before the start of the session.
09:00:10 [amy]
... You can go to meeting (paid), participate on lists, etc. Decisions are made on the mailing lists never in the meetings (often in the bar). Of course the physical idea of the meetings are critical however decisions will be ratified in email. similar to how some W3C WG work (thinking Web Apps).
09:00:16 [masinter]
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09:00:39 [amy]
... They dont' have a royal free policy. They rely on disclosure. There are stringent rules and happen early
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09:01:18 [amy]
... as you look at implementation experience, if there are IPR issues, it simply won't get traction. This is different than our work but has a bearing on joint work
09:01:39 [amy]
... they have an active tools team which are held in high regard
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09:02:08 [amy]
... There are hard topics where several people meet to hash out issues. the name for this is "design team"
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09:03:13 [amy]
... RFCs - it's not a standard. different types. it may be published by an individual, may be published by a group. not all IETF products. even of IETF products may be historical documents 30 years ago, wide variety
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09:03:41 [amy]
... Some notes on why it functions. They focus on interoperability format. What bits go over the wire. what bits need to go over wire to work
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09:03:49 [amy]
... Socket API is a notable exception
09:04:00 [amy]
... Traditionally IETF does not do local APIs
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09:04:26 [amy]
... Attracts a broad range, they're fairly proud of review they get when the process works
09:05:07 [amy]
... Another issue, vast scale of work. In terms of sheer volume there's more going on at IETF. Sometimes competing proposals. They try not to have competing protocols so it's not always possible
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09:05:27 [amy]
... (gives examples). Alexey notes that the IETF usually regrets this
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09:05:51 [amy]
... Decision making: there is no voting at IETF. A famous ritual when an issue comes up is the "hum"
09:06:05 [amy]
... a way to get consensus
09:06:15 [amy]
... Why does the IETF not work so well?
09:06:53 [amy]
... W3C is a consumer of IETF standards. MIME, Language tags, IDNA, etc
09:07:03 [amy]
... (skips language text)
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09:07:28 [amy]
... URI important. now seeing a formal specification for about:
09:07:57 [amy]
... IDNA, allows new characters. permits a few exotic/vital alphabets. That is recent work now seeing deployment
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09:08:28 [amy]
... Other recent publications. including: well-known URIs. there is now a standard for putting metadata in URI
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09:08:49 [amy]
... Activities: internationalization, URN, OAuth
09:09:07 [Kai]
s/... Why does the IETF not work so well?/... Why does the IETF not work so well? See the previous 2 slides.
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09:10:02 [amy]
... also joint work, broad definition. XML Signature. started as a joint group. spec currently revising in W3C group that we keep IETF advised on. one issue why we don't do more joint work is our patent policy. on IETF you have disclosure, here we have Patent Policy.
09:10:33 [amy]
... ask Yves Lafon and Julian @@ to stand. they are doing work on @@
09:10:49 [dom]
s/@@ to/Reschke to/
09:10:53 [dom]
s/@@/HTTPBis spec/
09:10:57 [Yves]
09:11:01 [amy]
... Joint projects: Cookies are being specified, WebSec, HYBI known as Web Sockets.
09:11:13 [Ralph]
Alexey/Thomas: note that there is finally a formal specification of 'about:'
09:11:29 [amy]
... these are areas where for core architectural issues we work together
09:11:59 [amy]
... Ongoing projects: Workshop on Internet Privacy coming up in December
09:12:09 [amy]
... differences between email and HTTP in MIME type
09:12:23 [amy]
... contact API, several groups working on this
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09:13:00 [amy]
... Conclusions: we have a well functioning relationship. it is valued on both sides. some on management/strategic level. some on technical issues. both very important
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09:13:21 [amy]
... any questions for the IETF side, I'm happy to introduce Alexey. If questions on W3C please see me
09:13:29 [amy]
Noah: thanks to all speakers
09:13:40 [amy]
... Tim said he's got some specific quesitons
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09:14:15 [amy]
TimBL: I got two comments which I appreciate. One was about architecture in which separate XML and HTML parsers and one on @@
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09:14:44 [amy]
... when I spoke in 2007 I spoke about this about greater length. Over three and half years, the situation has not gotten simpler.
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09:15:52 [amy]
... There I discussed moving from both directions, looking for common ground, looking at XML 2.0. There's a significant community who do work on XML but you don't see their work. You don't see this on the web because it's enterprise. We have to make sure that even if we don't see it on the web that we listen to them.
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09:16:31 [amy]
... Eg: parser that didn't work. You can't just move community to XML 2.0. Personally, I'd do it like a shot. I can see it's a mistake to @something about quotes@
09:17:02 [amy]
... In retrospect we should have done xML way back when DanC asked me is HTML and SGML application or not? and I said yes. He held my feet to the fire but I should have said yes
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09:17:13 [amy]
... There are a huge amount of systems and users we can't forget
09:17:27 [amy]
... It's hugely expensive if it's not compatible.
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09:17:46 [amy]
... On the other hand there are people in the HTML community who assume XML should come to them because "hello, we're HTML!".
09:17:56 [amy]
... same way, XML community "hello, we're XML"
09:18:01 [Kai]
s/He held my feet to the fire but I should have said yes/He held my feet to the fire but I should have said no
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09:18:44 [amy]
... It's hard to see the point of view of the other side. it's very rarely the people who have gone into all the intricacies of the spec (many in this room have). That is why, I'm afraid, I'm sorry, I took the comments but didn't make a response. I hope this counts as one
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09:18:56 [amy]
s/rarely the/rare that
09:19:23 [amy]
Noah: announcements: we're about to take a break. I'd strongly encourage you to talk to friends and think of good TAG nominees or speak to current/past TAG members
09:20:04 [amy]
... this room will likely have W3C staff here, we don't know whose machines are whose but there will be people in the room if that helps you make your decision
09:20:11 [amy]
... the break is right outside
09:20:18 [amy]
... be back by 10:45am please
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09:28:03 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
09:28:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
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09:42:47 [Fradley]
can someone expand on what this is about and when everything is going to start?
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09:51:16 [amy]
BOF (Birds of a Feather) sign up sheets are in the reception area. please feel free to sign up topics and for lunchs
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09:55:08 [MikeSmith]
scribe: MikeSmith
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09:55:36 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
09:55:36 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
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09:55:46 [MikeSmith]
Topic: The New Open Web Client Platform: HTML5, CSS3, and other goodies in action
09:55:56 [rahul]
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09:56:15 [MikeSmith]
[Philippe Le Hégaret introduces the session]
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09:56:33 [MikeSmith]
[Frank Olivier of Microsoft IE team comes to mic]
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09:57:34 [MikeSmith]
FO: we have been releasing new versions of IE9 platform preview at regular intervals with new standards-based features being added
09:57:40 [timbl]
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09:57:59 [MikeSmith]
[Frank demos a HTML5/CSS3-based site]
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09:58:25 [MikeSmith]
FO: we run everything through graphics acceleration, through GPU
09:58:36 [sgondo]
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09:58:44 [MikeSmith]
FO: Performance is one feature that everyone seems to like.
09:59:03 [mmielke]
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09:59:09 [MikeSmith]
[FO shows some SVG love]
09:59:38 [MikeSmith]
FO: critically imporant: developers want to create once, run anywhere
09:59:43 [sasa]
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09:59:48 [MikeSmith]
… interoperability is imporant
09:59:57 [MikeSmith]
FO: We need more and more test suites.
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10:00:16 [MikeSmith]
[FO demos how to zoom around the world over the Web]
10:00:28 [MikeSmith]
FO: this site uses HTML5 canvas
10:00:48 [MikeSmith]
FO: we have been updating our preview every 8 weeks
10:00:59 [darobin]
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10:01:01 [MikeSmith]
FO: We released IE9 beta on Sep 15
10:01:13 [raphael]
The sites that Frank is demoing: /
10:01:18 [MikeSmith]
FO: added 2D transforms recently
10:01:36 [MikeSmith]
10:01:48 [MikeSmith]
[Haakon is on next]
10:02:06 [MikeSmith]
[Haakon Lie on now]
10:02:28 [raman]
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10:02:37 [MikeSmith]
HL: by adding two lines of code in your CSS stylesheets, you can have downloadable fonts in your content
10:02:41 [vivien]
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10:03:03 [MikeSmith]
HL: text shadow was in CSS in 1998
10:03:13 [MikeSmith]
HL: CSS3 border radius
10:03:23 [MikeSmith]
… this was an request in the CSS1
10:03:39 [sven_b]
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10:03:39 [MikeSmith]
HL: in 1995, I told Bert, nobody is going to want rounded borders
10:03:52 [MikeSmith]
… that is _so_ 1970s
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10:04:12 [MikeSmith]
HL: we need to communicate through aesthetics
10:04:27 [MikeSmith]
HL: this is stuff that people used to spend hours and hours doing in Photoshop
10:04:39 [MikeSmith]
… and it can now be done in one line of CSS
10:04:43 [callie]
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10:05:37 [MikeSmith]
HL: CSS lets you avoid the need to use images for cases where you don't really need them
10:06:10 [MikeSmith]
HL: Media Queries let you say stuff like, when the screen is narrow, style the content differently
10:06:24 [MikeSmith]
HL: forms are easier now with HTML5
10:06:37 [koalie]
h&kon++ for scary photo in extra narrow window
10:06:47 [kennyluck]
10:06:47 [MikeSmith]
… you can add "autofocus" and "required" attributes
10:06:58 [MikeSmith]
… to form elements
10:07:05 [DanD]
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10:07:06 [MikeSmith]
… you can specify ranges
10:07:11 [MikeSmith]
… the browser can help you
10:07:17 [Yves]
hkon++ indeed
10:07:36 [MikeSmith]
HL: how many hours have been wasted in the western world creating date pickers?
10:07:40 [sylvaing]
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10:07:46 [homata]
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10:07:50 [MikeSmith]
… not the user agent can generate the date picker for you
10:07:55 [adrianba]
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10:07:57 [MikeSmith]
10:08:08 [MikeSmith]
HL: this page has text with logical flow
10:08:29 [MikeSmith]
HL: this next page shows SVG
10:08:53 [MikeSmith]
HL: video is the next battle
10:09:00 [MikeSmith]
… we need to find a common format
10:09:22 [MikeSmith]
HL: Google spent a lot of money to acquire WebM, and I think this is it
10:09:36 [shan]
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10:09:42 [MikeSmith]
HL: this is the Wikipedia Lexion
10:09:55 [MikeSmith]
… CSS has a paged media module
10:09:59 [wonsuk]
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10:10:15 [noah]
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10:10:24 [MikeSmith]
… two years from now, half the books on the NY Time bestseller list will be formattted using HTML and CSS
10:10:34 [MikeSmith]
HL; the printing press
10:10:47 [koalie]
10:10:55 [MikeSmith]
… we would know how to use a Gutenberg bible if we had one here today
10:11:14 [MikeSmith]
HL: we need to create standards that will last for 500 years
10:11:18 [Nobu]
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10:11:22 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
10:11:22 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
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10:11:35 [MikeSmith]
[Jonas Sicking from Mozilla]
10:11:50 [MikeSmith]
JS: we are going to show some fancy demos containing lots of fluff
10:11:58 [MikeSmith]
JS: we need to get video on the Web working
10:12:10 [MikeSmith]
JS: we are using CSS transitions in this demo
10:12:32 [MikeSmith]
JS: this demo shows video interacting with the rest of the Web page
10:12:47 [Zakim]
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10:12:55 [MikeSmith]
JS: we using SVG clipping in here too
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10:13:02 [MikeSmith]
… filters
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10:13:28 [MikeSmith]
JS: here is another example that shows a drive through Dubai
10:13:53 [MikeSmith]
… because it is an HTML video instead of a plugin video, we can interact with it much more
10:13:58 [MikeSmith]
… this uses WebGL
10:14:12 [MikeSmith]
… to give a 3D view
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10:14:55 [MikeSmith]
[JS turns of CSS to show that the video is displaying 3D at all times, and CSS is used to transform it to an interactive view]
10:15:05 [MikeSmith]
JS: fractals
10:15:11 [MikeSmith]
… real time
10:15:22 [MikeSmith]
… calculated
10:15:28 [MikeSmith]
… and ray tracing
10:15:31 [MikeSmith]
… fully real time
10:15:49 [MikeSmith]
… we are using the graphics cards to do the heavy lifting, all the calculations
10:16:00 [MikeSmith]
[David Baron joins the fray]
10:16:03 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
10:16:03 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
10:16:16 [MikeSmith]
DB: demo of OpenType font features
10:16:22 [MikeSmith]
… fonts have these features already
10:16:38 [MikeSmith]
… but you couldn't use them in Web pages before
10:16:59 [MikeSmith]
… this font in this demo has proportional numerals and automatic fractions
10:17:09 [MikeSmith]
… and for tabular data
10:17:30 [MikeSmith]
… font has better numerals for use in tables, to make it line up nicely
10:17:43 [Ileana]
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10:17:47 [MikeSmith]
… also can access fun features from fonts
10:18:12 [MikeSmith]
DB: can combine WebGL and Audio API
10:18:27 [MikeSmith]
… audio API allows you to get data out of audio elements in the browser
10:19:23 [MikeSmith]
JS: this demo is all WebGL
10:19:35 [MikeSmith]
… integrates with FlickR and Twitter
10:19:57 [sven_b_]
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10:20:07 [MikeSmith]
[audio plays while WebGL stuff renders]
10:20:22 [MikeSmith]
JS: We are using the Audio API to do beat detection
10:20:32 [MikeSmith]
… in real time in Javascript
10:20:48 [MikeSmith]
… and then using WebGL to do visualization
10:21:03 [MikeSmith]
[images pulse in time to audio track]
10:21:15 [MikeSmith]
[Philippe Le Hégaret is bak]
10:21:26 [MikeSmith]
PLH: I take questions now
10:21:32 [eliot]
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10:21:40 [MikeSmith]
[Doug Schepers comes to mic]
10:21:54 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: we are starting an Audio Working Group
10:22:09 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: not just an Incubator group
10:22:23 [timeless_mbp]
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10:22:38 [MikeSmith]
RogerCarlson: Haakon, what are you using for the music notation
10:22:50 [yongil_jang]
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10:22:53 [MikeSmith]
HL: we are using ABC notation
10:22:53 [koalie]
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10:23:14 [koalie]
[Claudio Venezia, Telecom Italia]
10:23:18 [MikeSmith]
Claudio: do you plan to address Augmented Reality use cases?
10:23:22 [timeless_mbp]
[ABC - ]
10:23:58 [MikeSmith]
JS: big missing piece is pulling data from a video camera and/or audio input… and getting it into the browser
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10:24:04 [MikeSmith]
… and how to do streaming
10:24:14 [MikeSmith]
… work is being done on this
10:24:27 [MikeSmith]
PLH: session will talk about the proposed <device> element
10:24:34 [koalie]
[Roger Cutler, Chevron]
10:25:01 [MikeSmith]
Roger: there is no standards-based music notation that exports/imports well
10:25:04 [timeless_mbp]
[Sibelius -]
10:25:20 [timeless_mbp]
[Finale -]
10:25:24 [MikeSmith]
HL: point is, with a little bit of markup, you can generate music
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10:25:35 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
10:25:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
10:25:52 [MikeSmith]
Roger: would be nice if some standards body provided a standard for music notation
10:26:08 [MikeSmith]
shepazu: MusicXML guy is in the Audio XG
10:26:12 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
10:26:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
10:26:23 [MikeSmith]
[round of applause for the panelists]
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10:26:51 [koalie]
-> Audio XG
10:26:54 [MikeSmith]
[next session starts]
10:27:06 [MikeSmith]
[Paul cotton at the mic]
10:27:14 [koalie]
10:27:19 [timeless_mbp]
[MusicXML - ]
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10:27:39 [MikeSmith]
PC: PLH, you owe me 12 minutes
10:27:50 [MikeSmith]
PC: We stand between you all and lunch…
10:28:01 [MikeSmith]
10:28:09 [koalie]
[Lunch will take place in Forum 3, right next to our room]
10:28:10 [MikeSmith]
PC: I am one of the co-chairs of the HTML WG
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10:28:40 [rigo]
10:28:42 [MikeSmith]
PC: this session is about answering some of the questions from teh previous session
10:28:52 [MikeSmith]
PC: each speaker gets 10 minutes
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10:29:11 [MikeSmith]
PC: Patrick Dengler from MSFT will be first
10:29:27 [MikeSmith]
… Larry Masinter has a series of questions to ask you later
10:29:35 [Stuart]
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10:29:36 [MikeSmith]
… and this may involve humming, IETF-style
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10:29:59 [MikeSmith]
[Patrick Dengler steps up to the mic… then steps back]
10:30:14 [MikeSmith]
PD: what an amazing amount of technology is in HTML5 today!
10:30:22 [MikeSmith]
PD: so fantastic
10:30:23 [koalie]
-> HTML.NEXT PANEL DISCUSSION background materials
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10:30:30 [MikeSmith]
PD: tectonic shift
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10:31:08 [MikeSmith]
PD: I believe there is an opportunity for us to finish HTML5
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10:31:30 [MikeSmith]
PD: developers see a lot of technologies coming together in HTML
10:31:52 [MikeSmith]
PD: we have a chance to bring these together, establish a plateau
10:32:03 [MikeSmith]
PD: ask, are we done with SVG 1.1?
10:32:24 [MikeSmith]
PD: can we agree, these are the modules we can all agree to depend on?
10:32:45 [MikeSmith]
PD: communication is not yet where it needs to be
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10:33:05 [MikeSmith]
PD: can we find that plateau, just as we did with HTML 3.2 and HTML4
10:33:28 [MikeSmith]
PD: what are the features that I as a developer can depend upon?
10:33:40 [MikeSmith]
PD: we owe more testing to the developers
10:33:51 [yuma_1985]
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10:34:19 [MikeSmith]
PD: we don't apply the engineering practices that we have, and take those to the standards committees that we participate in?
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10:34:32 [MikeSmith]
s/we don/why don/
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10:34:44 [MikeSmith]
PD: I am not talking about stifling innovation
10:34:59 [MikeSmith]
… some things are vendor-prefixed and still in development
10:35:03 [MikeSmith]
… we don't want to stifle that
10:35:21 [MikeSmith]
PD: let's do a fast, forced pushed with specific timelines
10:35:35 [plh]
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10:35:40 [MikeSmith]
PD: we want "write once" to the @@something@@ WEb
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10:36:01 [MikeSmith]
PD: this is sorta what's in my paper, see that
10:36:09 [MikeSmith]
[time for questions]
10:36:16 [matt]
10:36:20 [MikeSmith]
Jeff Jaffe steps up
10:36:44 [MikeSmith]
JJ: after a release with an incredible amount of functions, the next release is typically a bug-fix release
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10:36:52 [MikeSmith]
PD: yeah, there could be a dot release
10:37:01 [MikeSmith]
… but we do not want to spend years on that
10:37:28 [DanD]
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10:37:35 [MikeSmith]
PD: let's lead with test-driven specs so that we don't have to spend as much time in development next time
10:37:43 [MikeSmith]
Daniel Glazman steps up
10:37:43 [timeless_mbp]
10:38:00 [MikeSmith]
DG: we have 20,000 test we have been working on for CSS
10:38:09 [darobin]
Election results in SVG, as Patrick requested:
10:38:09 [MikeSmith]
DG: for HTML5, you are going to have 150,000
10:38:24 [MikeSmith]
… you are not going to finish this until 5 years
10:38:35 [Ralph]
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10:38:42 [MikeSmith]
PD: could we do it on a scenario basis?
10:39:04 [MikeSmith]
… do test-driven development on your specs, and you do not run into these problems
10:39:07 [pauld]
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10:39:11 [MikeSmith]
DG: I don't think so.
10:39:22 [MikeSmith]
DG: developers are going to do things that you do not expect
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10:39:37 [MikeSmith]
… you cannot ahead of time extract a scenario
10:39:53 [MikeSmith]
PC: I was chair of the XML Query WG
10:40:03 [MikeSmith]
… that test suite has 20,000 tests
10:40:10 [mjs]
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10:40:22 [MikeSmith]
PC: I agree that testing is important
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10:40:42 [MikeSmith]
… and you not going to be able to do it with just the current resources
10:40:54 [MikeSmith]
… we should be having a dialog about *how* we are going to do it
10:41:00 [MikeSmith]
DG: I don't disagree.
10:41:15 [MikeSmith]
… but writing tests requires a lot of knowledge, and a lot of time
10:41:22 [MikeSmith]
… the workforce required is huge
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10:41:32 [MikeSmith]
DG: but that is not what my comment was about
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10:41:52 [MikeSmith]
DG: users are always going to go deeper than what you have in your scenarios
10:42:00 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
10:42:00 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
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10:42:46 [rigo]
Real World HTML: the <device> element, by Adam Bergkvist (Ericsson AB) [slides]
10:43:03 [rigo]
slides ->
10:43:06 [MikeSmith]
AB: I have been asked to talk about the <device> elements
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10:43:12 [koalie]
-> Real World HTML: the <device> element slides
10:43:13 [MikeSmith]
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10:43:31 [MikeSmith]
AB: the device element represents a device selector
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10:43:54 [MikeSmith]
… allows the developer to access devices that aren't normally exposed to Web applications
10:43:58 [MikeSmith]
… device picker
10:44:39 [Ralph]
Ralph has changed the topic to: TPAC Plenary day feedback requested in | Agenda is | Back channel in #tpac-chat
10:44:45 [Liam]
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10:44:47 [MikeSmith]
AB: when you install Skype, you know ahead of time that it is going to access your microphone and camera, and that is why you are installing it
10:44:51 [richt]
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10:45:18 [MikeSmith]
AB: but when you access a Web app, you don't necessarily know what it might be going to access
10:45:22 [tlr]
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10:45:48 [MikeSmith]
AB: input element was judged to be not sufficient for the use cases we needed to address
10:45:57 [MikeSmith]
… hence, the device element
10:46:09 [MikeSmith]
AB: the device element itself is just a first step
10:46:22 [MikeSmith]
… you then need APIs that go along with the element
10:46:33 [MikeSmith]
AB: so far we have only one such API
10:46:43 [MikeSmith]
… and that is a "stream" API
10:46:54 [MikeSmith]
AB: event triggers on the device element
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10:47:21 [MikeSmith]
AB: set the stream to the video source
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10:47:31 [MikeSmith]
… can record while I am showing it
10:47:31 [rigo]
AB: can record
10:47:47 [MikeSmith]
AB: brings a lot of new possibillities
10:47:50 [Ralph]
10:47:55 [MikeSmith]
… upload videos to a video blog
10:48:02 [MikeSmith]
… adding communication to a game
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10:48:17 [MikeSmith]
AB: but in addition you need a way to share streams
10:48:39 [MikeSmith]
…there is a proposal/applications of some kind for that
10:48:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ralph
10:49:01 [MikeSmith]
AB: we did some prototyping this spring and summer at Ericsson Research
10:49:21 [MikeSmith]
AB: we used the device element and stream API to develop a prototype
10:49:46 [MikeSmith]
AB: along with some media element extensions
10:49:47 [karen]
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10:51:11 [MikeSmith]
AB: we invented something we called "media stream transceivers"
10:51:22 [MikeSmith]
… using HTML5 WebSocket
10:51:41 [MikeSmith]
AB: there is a lot of work to be done before this can be made real
10:52:16 [MikeSmith]
AB: if you once allow a Web app to access your camera, how do you revoke that permission later?
10:52:16 [AnnB]
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10:52:34 [Ralph]
10:52:37 [MikeSmith]
[Adam concludes, floor is open to questions]
10:52:39 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ralph
10:52:52 [MikeSmith]
PC: where is this in the W3C today?
10:52:54 [Ian]
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10:53:22 [MikeSmith]
AB: this work started [in discussions on the WHATWG mailing list]
10:53:25 [mischat]
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10:54:03 [MikeSmith]
Dom: Ian Hickson has proposed this <device> elements, and there have been discussions about it in the DAP WG
10:54:12 [MikeSmith]
10:54:24 [MikeSmith]
Robin Berjon arrives at the mic
10:54:48 [jmarting]
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10:54:51 [MikeSmith]
RB: DAP is quite willing to work on this, we can get discussion going
10:55:01 [MikeSmith]
Tim Berners-Lee at the mic
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10:55:48 [MikeSmith]
AB: this could be done something like we have now with the file-upload feature
10:56:11 [MikeSmith]
… it can be done as a [replaced element], rendered natively by the browser
10:56:27 [MikeSmith]
Dan Appelquist at the mic
10:56:28 [adam]
TimBL: you mentioned security, should the security be part of the html mark up thereby phishable or part of a drop down from the browser
10:56:41 [MikeSmith]
DA: I think this belongs in the DAP WG
10:56:48 [adamretter]
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10:57:01 [MikeSmith]
… because they are already working on the related APIs for device interaction
10:57:09 [MikeSmith]
… and that also have privacy and security issues
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10:57:18 [MikeSmith]
PC: Why not do it in the HTML WG?
10:57:34 [MikeSmith]
DA: Why *would* it be done in the HTML WG
10:57:46 [MikeSmith]
10:57:55 [burn]
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10:58:11 [MikeSmith]
DA: I don't think the HTML WG is where the expertise is. (Is this where the blood starts?)
10:58:20 [MikeSmith]
Thomas Roessler at the mic
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10:58:56 [MikeSmith]
TLR: This is a bit like the discussions about where the work on RDFa should take place
10:58:58 [rigo]
PC: rechartering HTML we have to put all those things on the agenda
10:59:03 [MikeSmith]
PC: queue is closed
10:59:10 [MikeSmith]
David Rogers from WAC
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10:59:29 [MikeSmith]
DR: I think it is folly to put everything in one working group
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11:00:01 [MikeSmith]
… we are looking at related use cases for Widgets
11:00:03 [timeless_mbp]
[WAC - ]
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11:00:09 [MikeSmith]
PC: my point was about the element
11:00:13 [MikeSmith]
… not about the APIs
11:00:38 [MikeSmith]
DR: maybe we just need to work more closely
11:00:46 [Kangchan]
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11:00:48 [MikeSmith]
Jeremy Orlow from Google at the mic
11:01:06 [MikeSmith]
JO: I think this clearly does not belong in the DAP WG
11:01:12 [chaals]
[DAP and Web Apps (and a couple of special-purpose groups) share responsibility for the APIs]
11:01:58 [MikeSmith]
… the APIs that you need in Web browsers are necessarily very different from the ones you need for browsers
11:02:04 [chaals]
[/me wonders what Jeremy thinks browsers are doing...]
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11:02:26 [MikeSmith]
[the word "bullshit" is heard…]
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11:02:51 [rigo]
XG Audio: Advanced audio functionality for Web browsers, by Chris Lowis (BBC) [slides]
11:02:53 [MikeSmith]
s/need for browsers/need for Widgets/
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11:03:09 [rigo]
slides ->
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11:03:34 [MikeSmith]
PC: we are having BOFs at lunch, sign up outside
11:03:39 [DKA]
+1 to Robin
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11:03:54 [MikeSmith]
[speaker needs a macbook pro video adapter]
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11:04:00 [DKA]
-1 to Google's attempt to sow FUD on the work of DAP.
11:04:46 [MikeSmith]
Chris Lowis from BBC at the mic
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11:05:02 [koalie]
[Audio XG: Advanced audio functionality for Web browsers, by Chris Lowis (BBC)]
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11:05:33 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
11:05:33 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
11:05:51 [koalie]
-> Advanced audio functionality for Web browsers, by Chris Lowis (BBC)
11:06:16 [koalie]
-> Audio XG slides
11:06:19 [MikeSmith]
CL: the demos I'm showing were created by others
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11:06:55 [MikeSmith]
CL: this XG is chartered in part to explore synthesizing audio/speech
11:07:14 [MikeSmith]
[Chris shows a demo]
11:08:12 [Ralph]
[scrolling numbers]
11:08:17 [Ralph]
[dynamic audio waveform]
11:08:18 [MikeSmith]
CL: the API gives direct access to raw samples from the audio stream
11:08:27 [Ralph]
[different dynamic audio waveform]
11:08:31 [MikeSmith]
… so you can create visualizations
11:08:38 [MikeSmith]
… and you can create filters
11:08:45 [MikeSmith]
… and this is all done in Javascript
11:08:56 [MikeSmith]
… doing DSP in Javascript
11:09:01 [MikeSmith]
… visualization of FFT
11:09:06 [Ralph]
[other visualizations]
11:09:09 [MikeSmith]
… WinAmp-style
11:09:24 [MikeSmith]
… filter out the frequencies, do beat detection
11:09:25 [richt]
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11:09:26 [Ralph]
[flashing text sync'd with music beats]
11:09:54 [MikeSmith]
CL: can do visualizations using 3D canvas [WebGL]
11:10:08 [MikeSmith]
CL: Chris Rogers at Google has come up with a proposed API
11:10:37 [MikeSmith]
CL: one difference with the Mozilla API is that all of the processing needs to be done in the Javascript engine
11:11:04 [MikeSmith]
CL: Chris Rogers proposed API is based on the conceptual model of audio "nodes"
11:11:16 [MikeSmith]
… that can be passed around, chained together
11:11:47 [MikeSmith]
… e.g, using a connect() method to connect a low-pass filter and gain node together
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11:12:26 [MikeSmith]
… this code is in the WebKit code [and you need to build/compile it in yourself or use a special build to enable it]
11:12:42 [MikeSmith]
s/or use a/or download and run a/
11:12:44 [rigo]
music: An die ferne Geliebte
11:13:06 [jorlow]
richt: I don't think I explained very well. I'm not saying that DAP is fluff or anything like that. My thesis was intended to be that cmera access is a good example of why we need 2 APIs, not just one because the security requirements are pretty fundamentally different
11:13:20 [jorlow]
security/usability that is
11:13:36 [MikeSmith]
[demo of music playing along with score]
11:13:47 [MikeSmith]
[demo of drum machine]
11:14:20 [MikeSmith]
CL: can apply audio effects in real time
11:14:39 [Ralph]
[Chris manipulates sliders in the browser to adjust the effects]
11:14:46 [MikeSmith]
CL: those are demos from both camps in the Audio XG
11:15:20 [MikeSmith]
CL: we would like to talk to people in the [DAP and WebApps WG] and also [WAI]
11:15:56 [MikeSmith]
CL: Al McDonald is involved with plans for setting up a full WG for this
11:16:11 [richt]
11:16:17 [MikeSmith]
Roger Cutler steps up to the mic
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11:16:43 [MikeSmith]
RC: it's more in the spirit of the Web to go after the notation
11:17:13 [MikeSmith]
CL: the markup in the demo I showed is using MusicXML
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11:17:27 [MikeSmith]
RC: MusicXML [doesn't go far enough]
11:17:38 [MikeSmith]
Larry Masinter now speaking
11:18:02 [MikeSmith]
LM: program has me talking about future directions for HTML
11:18:10 [rigo]
HTML6: Core Web Standards: Renewed Perspectives, by Larry Masinter (W3C TAG, Adobe)
11:18:24 [rigo]
-> slides
11:18:31 [MikeSmith]
… but hearing the desire to see some "blood on the floor", I prepared a different talk
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11:18:32 [koalie]
-> Larry's slides
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11:19:10 [MikeSmith]
LM: I would like to try to categorize some of the issues that have embroiled the standards community, and the HTML WG in particular
11:19:23 [MikeSmith]
LM: plan is to hum for the statement that you hate most
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11:19:46 [MikeSmith]
LM: first, should standards "match reality"?
11:20:26 [MikeSmith]
[inclusive humming]
11:20:41 [MikeSmith]
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11:21:01 [MikeSmith]
LM: point is, people arrive with different assumptions
11:21:18 [hhalpin]
there is also the disturbing possibility that standards neither match reality or have any principles :)
11:21:19 [MikeSmith]
LM: next, reverse engineering
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11:21:36 [hhalpin]
but no-one wants that luckily!
11:22:44 [MikeSmith]
LM: Precision… how precisely should standards specify [UA] behavior?
11:22:54 [timeless_mbp]
"Standards should be [as] loose as possible"
11:23:20 [noah]
Mr. Session Chair: you're not distinguishing the case where two different people hum for the two choices, vs. the case where the >same< people like (or dislike) both
11:23:27 [MikeSmith]
[rousing hum for standards precisely defining UA behavior]
11:23:49 [MikeSmith]
LM: Leading… should standards lead the community, or follow innovation
11:24:12 [MikeSmith]
[hums show more support for standards being driven by innovation]
11:24:37 [MikeSmith]
LM: Extensibility… are non-standard extensions valuable?
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11:24:56 [MikeSmith]
LM: Modularity… is modularity valuable, or disruptive?
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11:25:01 [noah]
Larry's slides at:
11:25:05 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
11:25:05 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
11:25:12 [noah]
He's on the one with the title: 6.Modularity
11:25:34 [noah]
That's slide 7, Timely
11:25:45 [MikeSmith]
LM: Timely… do standards take too long to develop?
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11:27:18 [MikeSmith]
LM: Authors ignore standards… can we expect standards to include "authoring conformance" requirements?
11:28:03 [MikeSmith]
s/can we expect standards to/can we expect authors to follow standards that/
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11:28:25 [MikeSmith]
LM: Always-On Committee…
11:28:38 [noah]
I feel that Larry is doing a very useful service by pointing out different perspectives that people have...I feel that 'voting' on these is confusing and counterproductive. In many cases, these are two sides of the same coin, and it's important to trade them off case by case.
11:28:42 [MikeSmith]
LM: are open-source implementations important?
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11:29:29 [MikeSmith]
LM: Browsers and the Web… how important are browsers? are other application classes equally important?
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11:30:37 [MikeSmith]
LM: Forking… is forking harmful, or does it enable further innovation?
11:30:48 [Ian]
[Forking harmful won out]
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11:31:03 [chaals]
[Hmm. I am finding a lot of these questions are setting up false dichotomies...]
11:31:06 [noah]
Why ask whether >browser< can depend on patented technology? Geez, they all run on patented chips. I think you >mean< to ask, should the specifications >require< the use of patented technology in order to produce a viable implementation.
11:31:10 [MikeSmith]
LM: Accessibility… how critical is it to address accessibility needs?
11:31:44 [MikeSmith]
LM: Architecture… how important are architectural concerns?
11:32:17 [MikeSmith]
LM: We are going to to get HTML5 out without solving these issues
11:32:26 [MikeSmith]
… so we need to address them in
11:32:39 [MikeSmith]
… maybe we will need two specs
11:32:57 [MikeSmith]
LM: you can't solve thse problems unless you first acknowledge them
11:33:02 [MikeSmith]
Jonas Sicking at the mic
11:33:24 [MikeSmith]
JS: there was not a single one of these questions where there is only one answer
11:33:36 [MikeSmith]
… it all [depends on the context]
11:33:46 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ian
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11:34:13 [MikeSmith]
JS: there is, for example, no clear answer to the question about "Should standards lead, or should the follow?"
11:34:31 [MikeSmith]
JS: there was a clear undertone in these slides, about HTML5
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11:34:50 [MikeSmith]
… and HTML5 approached all of them in a variety of ways
11:35:31 [Steven_]
+1 to Noah
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11:35:37 [MikeSmith]
Noah Mendelsohn at the mic
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11:36:08 [MikeSmith]
NM: you have given us some valuable things to think about it, but I think it was a mistake to [do the voting thing]
11:36:15 [MikeSmith]
Harry Halpin
11:36:39 [MikeSmith]
HH: I think there is a false dichotomy behind [a lot of the questions in your slides]
11:36:52 [MikeSmith]
… maybe there is a 3rd option
11:37:09 [MikeSmith]
… which is, drive things based on what actual users really want
11:37:27 [MikeSmith]
LM: I think the issues of modularity need to be addressed
11:37:54 [MikeSmith]
LM: unfinished old business comes up and bites you in uncomfortable places
11:38:01 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
11:38:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
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11:38:22 [MikeSmith]
someone asks, "Is the room secure?" (for lunch)
11:38:35 [MikeSmith]
Paul Cotton replies, Is the Web secure?
11:38:41 [MikeSmith]
[we break for lunch]
11:38:50 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
11:38:50 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
11:38:53 [MikeSmith]
RRSAgent, make minutes
11:38:53 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate MikeSmith
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13:04:15 [koalie]
Topic: Bringing new work (Part I)
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scribenick: Liam
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13:07:42 [Liam]
[jeff gives sumary of morning]
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13:07:44 [Liam]
integration is hard
13:07:48 [Liam]
HTML 5 is cool
13:07:48 [koalie]
[Jeff Jaffe summarizing the morning messages]
13:07:52 [Liam]
there is life after HTML 5
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13:08:56 [Liam]
[Jeff thanks organizers, programme committee, and others involved in making the meeting]
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13:10:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Liam
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13:10:28 [Liam]
[Jeff thanks various people by name]
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13:11:28 [Liam]
Topic: panel discussion
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13:11:40 [Liam]
s/panel discussion/lightning talks/
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13:12:21 [Liam]
Marc Schröder, DFKI, EmotionML
13:12:28 [Liam]
[slide 2]
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13:12:39 [koalie]
-> Slides
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13:12:57 [Liam]
"emotions are the social glue in human experience"
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13:13:26 [koalie]
[Emotion Markup Language was a W3C Incubator Group from Nov. 2007 to Nove. 2008]
13:13:35 [Liam]
[slide 3]
13:13:41 [koalie]
-> W3C Emotion Markup Language Incubator Group
13:13:42 [davy]
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13:13:45 [Liam]
screen shots of various Web sites
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13:14:51 [Liam]
e.g. social web annotations; automatically sensing emotional behaviour; voice/avatar generation with emotion
13:14:59 [Liam]
[slide 4]
13:15:04 [Liam]
research labs
13:15:06 [Liam]
[slide 5]
13:15:21 [Liam]
we've done 2 incubator groups, MMI WG now going towards Last Call
13:15:25 [Liam]
[slide 6]
13:15:28 [Liam]
[slide 7]
13:15:31 [Liam]
[scribe blinked]
13:15:34 [Liam]
[slide 8]
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13:15:54 [Liam]
manual annotation of data / automatic recognition / generation
13:16:13 [Liam]
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13:16:35 [Liam]
ark: EmotionalML is very diverse, broad variety of contexts
13:16:51 [jeff]
Jeff said: What would he have said if he had another minute
13:16:51 [Liam]
13:17:04 [adam]
*there wasn't a question
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13:17:19 [Liam]
Harry Halpin, co-chair of Social Web incubator group
13:17:22 [Liam]
[slide 1]
13:17:39 [Liam]
Knowledge is (potential power)
13:17:45 [Liam]
"things are looking grimp"
13:17:48 [Liam]
[slide 2]
13:17:55 [Liam]
facebook is taking over
13:17:59 [Liam]
but SN is larger than fb
13:18:07 [Liam]
central to how we use the Web
13:18:14 [koalie]
-> Slides
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13:18:29 [Liam]
but most social nets are very insecure, using cookies
13:18:38 [nord_c]
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13:18:46 [Liam]
[slide, too many solutions]
13:18:53 [Liam]
[slide final report]
13:19:07 [Liam]
30 pages report to summarise the social web space...
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13:19:19 [Liam]
need work on Identity in the Browser
13:19:42 [koalie]
-> W3C Social Web Incubator Group
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13:20:08 [Liam]
recommending an over-arching privacy activity at W3C
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13:21:07 [Liam]
Dan Applequist: as co-chair... please do ask us about the content of the report
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13:21:19 [Liam]
it has some important ideas about what W3C should be doing about the space
13:21:32 [Liam]
and risks about the way people identify themselves on the Web...
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13:21:45 [Liam]
I've just tried firesheep and now I look like Anne Bassetti.
13:22:04 [Ralph]
s/look like/can impersonate/
13:22:05 [AnnB]
luckily my named is spelled "Ann"
13:22:18 [Liam]
Harry: if these issues are not addressed it could be the i-9/11 forcing people to closed platforms
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13:22:56 [fantasai]
very coherent presentation by harry imo
13:22:57 [Liam]
Dan Burnett, Voxeo - Speech-enabling your web pages
13:22:58 [fantasai]
13:23:10 [koalie]
-> Slides
13:23:14 [Liam]
hands up if you're using mobile devices that let you input data with speech
13:23:16 [Liam]
[lots of hands]
13:23:22 [Liam]
hands up only if they use standards
13:23:26 [Liam]
[no hands]
13:23:34 [Liam]
[slide 2]
13:23:39 [Liam]
HTML Speech Incubator Group
13:24:05 [koalie]
-> W3C HTML Speech Incubator Group
13:24:21 [Liam]
[ Social Web XG report at ]
13:24:30 [Liam]
[slide 3, So Far...]
13:24:33 [adrianba]
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13:24:36 [Norm]
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13:24:39 [Liam]
collected use cases, etc
13:24:43 [MichaelC]
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13:24:44 [Liam]
[slide 4, Next steps]
13:24:49 [Liam]
no results yet
13:24:55 [Liam]
just getting started
13:25:08 [Liam]
want to propose our spec to HTML WG
13:25:16 [rigo]
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13:25:20 [Liam]
[slide, <html>speech</html>]
13:25:30 [glazou]
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13:25:58 [Liam]
How is this related to VoiceXML? - it's a separate group and work, intended to be lightweight, VoiceML is for longer-term spoken dialogues
13:26:06 [Liam]
we're still working out the boundaries
13:26:15 [Liam]
s/lightweight/light-weight and intended to go into HTML/
13:26:18 [noah]
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13:26:23 [Liam]
Roger Cutler, Chevron
13:26:31 [Liam]
Why Semantic Web in th Oil and Gas Industry
13:26:36 [koalie]
-> Slides
13:26:45 [koalie]
s/in th/in the/
13:26:47 [Liam]
[slide 1, Why is SW Different?]
13:27:01 [Liam]
scalable... and, open world assumption
13:27:09 [Liam]
[slide, open & closed worlds]
13:27:27 [Liam]
[slide - Oil & Gas closed or open?]
13:27:47 [Liam]
[slide, data silos]
13:27:52 [Liam]
"bad, evil"
13:27:52 [seungjae]
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13:27:57 [Liam]
[slide, tower of babel]
13:28:10 [eliot]
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13:28:11 [Liam]
[slide, SW, connect the silos]
13:28:33 [Liam]
silos are effective, so SW recognises this and conncts them with ontologies
13:28:41 [Liam]
[slide, HCLS linked data cloud]
13:28:52 [Liam]
[slide, chevron SW Activity]
13:29:02 [Liam]
[slide CiSoft proposal]
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13:29:18 [Liam]
[slide, blank]
13:29:23 [Liam]
13:29:42 [Liam]
Ian Jacobs - Roger, can you describe what it's like being inside Chevron communicating the beauty of SQ to your colleagues?
13:29:55 [Liam]
Roger: The idea of SQ is highl visible to our executives
13:30:00 [koalie]
s/Jacobs -/Jacobs:/
13:30:05 [Liam]
2 reasons... we emphasized what you can do right now
13:30:09 [Ian]
s/Jacobs:/Mr. Jacobs:
13:30:13 [koalie]
13:30:21 [Liam]
e.g. metada managements
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13:30:26 [koalie]
13:30:30 [Liam]
and strategically in the centre of some of our big projects
13:30:37 [Liam]
talking about workflows that span domains
13:30:45 [Liam]
so it resonates, the big picture resonates very strongly
13:31:00 [Liam]
s/Ian Mr/Mr/
13:31:14 [Liam]
Ashok Malhotra, Why map relational data to RDF?
13:31:16 [koalie]
-> Slides
13:31:19 [Liam]
[slide 1]
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13:31:33 [DKA]
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13:31:39 [Liam]
s/Why/Oracle: Why/
13:32:11 [Liam]
RDB2RDF WG is going to write mappings...
13:32:33 [Liam]
you can do the mapping and store it, or a virtual mapping and translate from SPARQL to SQL on the fly
13:32:36 [manyoung]
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13:32:43 [Liam]
there's a huge amount of relational databases
13:32:47 [Liam]
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13:33:02 [Liam]
15 Billion Dollar Business...
13:33:03 [Liam]
13:33:11 [Liam]
Relational data wants this 'cos it wants to have semantics
13:33:29 [Liam]
connect the silos
13:33:32 [Liam]
[slide skipped]
13:33:34 [Liam]
slike History
13:33:39 [jeff]
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13:33:43 [Liam]
[slide, Work in Progress]
13:33:48 [koalie]
13:33:50 [Liam]
we have requirements and Usecases
13:34:06 [Liam]
just published Custom Mapping - lets you use the Full Power of SQL to translate from relational data to RDF
13:34:16 [Liam]
and in next month or two, FPWD of default mapping
13:34:28 [Liam]
fairly simple db, press a button, and rdf comes ouot
13:34:31 [Liam]
13:34:41 [Liam]
and maybe we'll write a formal semantics for the mapping
13:34:54 [Liam]
[slide, details, not covered in talk]
13:35:20 [Liam]
13:35:30 [Liam]
person: When you're moving info from your silos up to RDF to the SW...
13:35:38 [Liam]
in the silo it's easy to find a unique ID
13:35:45 [Liam]
e.g. a person's name
13:35:55 [Liam]
but in the SQ they may not be unique, how do you deal with that?
13:36:08 [Liam]
Ashok: that was on my last slide which I skipped!
13:36:15 [Liam]
for default mapping we have a scheme to generate URIs
13:36:23 [Liam]
but it's an open question we're working on
13:37:05 [DKA]
On Firesheep: I was scanning actively for about 5 minutes and I picked up credentials enabling me to masquerade as Ann Bassetti, Phil Archer, Richard Ishida and 3 others (all now cleared). TO PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING TO YOU: use https: whenever possible (Twitter and Facebook both have https versions) or go through a VPN whenever you are on an unsecured (by WPA) wireless LAN.
13:37:36 [Liam]
Henry Story, on Social Web XG, trying to get an Open ID IG going
13:38:04 [sylvaing]
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13:38:05 [Liam]
[response from Harry, scribe could not hear]
13:38:15 [Liam]
Roger Cutler - hoping that kind of question can be a push and pull
13:38:20 [DanD]
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13:38:35 [Liam]
I don't view it as a technical question of how you do it automatically
13:38:45 [Liam]
person2: webid is a very low-level specific technology
13:38:49 [dsr]
Harry saying that an identity workshop is under consideration
13:38:53 [koalie]
s/scribe could not hear/there will be a workshop on this/
13:39:05 [Liam]
Harry: Harry: we're planning on looking at Henry's work with OpenID foundation
13:39:09 [Liam]
and all sots of groups
13:39:11 [nord_c]
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13:39:19 [Liam]
it would be good to talk with people who are here
13:39:24 [koalie]
13:40:00 [Liam]
Phil Archer: I think today was the first redacted slide I've seen, thank you Roger!
13:40:06 [chaals]
Scribe: Chaals
13:40:11 [koalie]
Topic: Web and TV
13:40:15 [chaals]
Topic: TV and the Web panel
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13:41:07 [chaals]
Phil: I have worked on lots of things, including radio, so they thought I would be good at chairing this panel. Go figure...
13:41:13 [yongil_jang]
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13:41:49 [chaals]
... Large panel, reflecting the fact that there are a lot of different threads in the relationship between TV and Web.
13:41:59 [Wuk]
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13:42:29 [chaals]
... Speaker: Kazuyuki Ashimura W3C, Tristan Fern BBC, Libby Miller NoTube, Yosuke Funahashi, Dongyeon LG,
13:42:42 [chaals]
... Mark Vickers - castcom.
13:43:02 [chaals]
... Kaz, can you set the scene and talk about the workshop in Tokyo and possible repeat in Berlin?
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13:43:09 [raphael]
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13:44:20 [chaals]
Kaz: Held workshop in Tokyo, September on TV and Web and possibilities for smarter integration of the technologies. We had 150 people, and got a lot of interesting and somewhat complicated use cases to motivate work. Conclusion included creating an Interest group as a first step, and that is now being brought to W3M for charter review.
13:44:29 [marengo_]
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13:44:49 [chaals]
Tristan: Work for BBC Research and Development, in a prototyping team looking at the intersection of audience and technology. Can be TV, Radio, Web, ...
13:45:09 [chaals]
... BBC is interested in delivering TV via Web, and how to deliver web applications to TV devices.
13:45:20 [artur]
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13:45:46 [chaals]
... Personally interested in how we create new experiences to combine TV and Web things. How can we join passive TV audiences to active Web audiences.
13:46:11 [chaals]
... and how do I get BBC talent to make stuff for the Web. Can we join search and recommendation from teh Web with TV programming, archives, schedules, ...?
13:46:50 [chaals]
... Right now working on "second screen" app, using another device to talk around what people are watching.
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13:47:22 [youenn]
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13:47:38 [chaals]
Lib: NoTube is a social web and TV program. We're interested in what people are doing now - using second screen and social media at the same time, commonly watching it with other people in a room.
13:47:58 [chaals]
... Making it easier to find and share cool stuff.
13:48:32 [chaals]
... Looking at things like realtime voting, interest level for long-tail content, and so on. Things like the mix between broadcast services and URLs...
13:48:45 [Denis]
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13:48:50 [Roger]
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13:49:02 [chaals]
... Interested in persistent pointers to TV things, metadata, ...
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13:49:43 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ian
13:50:35 [chaals]
Yosuke: Tomo-digi (our company) is about Web and TV convergence. Established 1999, when internet services on TV started in Japan. Now over 120 million DTV sets, and doing a vast range of internet services with broadcasters, so we have market experience about Web and TV.
13:51:12 [Ileana]
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13:51:32 [mjs]
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13:51:53 [chaals]
... My interest in Web/TV IG - Web is spatial concept, but TV is a temporal concept, with a timeline. When Digital TV started, there were several kinds of web standards. Broadcasters developed based on Web stuff plus broadcast extensions...
13:52:46 [mjs]
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13:53:18 [chaals]
... Braodcasters extended different things. Now is a time of convergence for broadcasters. HTML5 is coming, and TV broadcasters should think of "one TV" in the sense of "one Web". This will be a really new approach that will bring us really new technology
13:53:29 [mjs]
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13:54:05 [chaals]
Phil: Product cycle for phones and laptops are measured in months - but TV's stay there for years.
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13:54:48 [chaals]
DY: LG make phones, TVs, etc. We want some web technology as a platform for smart TV. I want 3 things:
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13:55:18 [chaals]
... unfragmented market. Not different specs in different markets
13:55:26 [chaals]
... realistic standards.
13:55:31 [Ian]
(as global vendor need unfragmented standards)
13:55:35 [koalie]
i/DY:/Dong Young (LG Electronics)/
13:55:37 [chaals]
... Royalty-free standards
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13:56:15 [chaals]
... TV is different to PC or phone. Harder to do input, big screen, ...
13:56:23 [Eduardo]
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13:56:30 [chaals]
... We want new standards from W3C that are free, unfragmented and realistic.
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13:56:42 [Ian]
"and are willing to do this work here"
13:56:52 [chaals]
s/Dongyeon LG/DongYoung (LG Electronics)/
13:57:19 [chaals]
Phil: Note that you might have a good screen on your TV, but the electronics inside are dedicated to the picture, not processing power.
13:57:36 [Kangchan]
s/Dong Young/Dongyoung/
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13:57:49 [koalie]
[Mark Vickers (Comcast)]
13:58:02 [chaals]
MV: Got involved in TV/Web stuff in mid 90's. Produced stuff for IETF, and so on.
13:58:16 [chaals]
... pretty sure none of that is in HTML5 - that's what happens when you are too early.
13:58:42 [chaals]
... Comcast started doing stuff on set-top boxes but is now focused on delivering to any device, and we're looking to HTML5.
13:59:10 [Ralph]
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13:59:29 [chaals]
... We currently use plugins for the web, but would like to deliver through HTML5, and we want 'one web'. Will only happen if the standards and support needed for TV is done in W3C. Otherwise we have today's mess of different extensions in different groups.
14:00:13 [chaals]
... We've been studying HTML5 and it looks promising. Video, Timed tracks, canvas, webGL, web sockets are all critical things. Javascript performance is important.
14:00:38 [chaals]
... Looks like KeyCodes are going to be OK (was a challenge). Access to content on set-top boxes via LAN is a challenge.
14:01:07 [chaals]
... External challenges include dealing with codecs that support captioning (for regulation requirements) and protected content, ...
14:01:41 [chaals]
Phil: Recurring theme - multiple screens with different devices. People are still passively watching TV, but there are things people do on the side of that.
14:02:00 [chaals]
... Libby, can you talk about the use of hash-tagging and social networking in relation to TV?
14:02:12 [kaz]
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14:02:37 [kohei]
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14:02:38 [chaals]
Lib: This may be just UK phenomenon, would like feedback. In UK, you can get 8 of twitter's top ten trending topics about a single TV show.
14:02:58 [chaals]
... programs are picking up on it, giving hashtags in programs, having people talk at the TV through twitter.
14:03:04 [wonsuk]
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14:03:43 [chaals]
... When digital economy bill went through parliament there was a boring misinformed debate in parliament, but a lot of chatter and further information around it from people watching and interacting.
14:03:55 [chaals]
... The further information can be used later...
14:04:10 [chaals]
Phil: Do other countries have this twitter phenomenon?
14:04:18 [chaals]
[scribe hears 'france']
14:04:52 [chaals]
Kaz: TBS in Japan also did some stuff with live feedback around elections.
14:04:59 [AnnB]
I don't watch TV .. but I thought that tweeting in realtime phenomena might have gone on with program "Lost"....??
14:05:40 [chaals]
YF: Purpose of the program is to bring people not currently using Web, e.g. older people not accustomed to the Web, and show them what happens with twitter.
14:05:57 [AnnB]
that was the real me ... muhahaaa
14:06:09 [AnnB]
I'll never tweet again, now that I know about firesheep
14:06:10 [yongil_]
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14:06:54 [chaals]
Phil: 2 devices, one showing program, one being used to chat on web about it. DongYoung, do you want to see multiple devices? What sort?
14:07:56 [chaals]
DY: We make these kinds of products, so would like to see them develop. If you have loose linkage (e.g. share a URL) between 2 streams of information, we can't do tightly-linked applications.
14:08:29 [chaals]
... We can put real information on TV, put with twitter can go the other way. Incorporate what user does with mobile device and reflect it in TV content.
14:08:40 [marengo_]
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14:08:42 [sven_b_]
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14:09:06 [chaals]
... Could want somethign more advanced than twitter. Our priority is standardising extensions - APIs for TV. And other use cases.
14:09:26 [chaals]
Phil: So if the APIs are in place we could do something more interesting and exciting than just tweeting.
14:09:57 [kaz]
i/Phil:/[ kaz remembers the impressive demonstrations by Japanese broadcasters during the September workshop ]/
14:10:06 [kaz]
14:10:07 [chaals]
Mark: Have bee recently showing an app where you can use your tablet to read the program guide and change the channel. Basic 2-screen interaction.
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14:10:50 [chaals]
... When TV program producers integrate this into content will be interesting. Above a certain age people ust watch TV, but younger people almost all have a device with them when they are watching TV.
14:11:03 [chaals]
... Good examles in video game world, but nothing like that in TV yet.
14:11:24 [chaals]
Phil: Phone as remote control...
14:12:23 [chaals]
Mark: Comcast is a cable company, but also have some program channels. We're in process of acqiring NBC and Universal studios. All this content is going to be available in some downloadable form on the web. Convergence in delivery is leading to convergence in how companies are formed.
14:12:47 [Steven]
14:13:00 [chaals]
Phil: Can you give us some blue-sky thinking of what you would do if the APIs are there...
14:13:30 [chaals]
Tristan: Normally think of how to use exiting technology. Interestin to think of new technology.
14:14:02 [chaals]
... Lots of intereactive gameshow stuff - kind of obvious. We are looking at what you would do with e.g. documentary content and second screen to make it more interesting.
14:14:17 [chaals]
... Radio is interesting - at particular times of day it has massive live audiences in UK.
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14:14:38 [chaals]
... Definitely social stuff around that, and extra information you could add by web.
14:14:45 [chaals]
Phil: What's missing, or hard?
14:15:36 [chaals]
Tristan: Finding and recommending TV content. Isdone for web, do we need anything special for TV? How do you synchronise web content and live TV - delivering a picture relevant to program synch is not so important. Delivering captions or subtitles have to be very tightly synchronised.
14:15:43 [jpcs]
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14:16:38 [chaals]
Phil: I'm share name with a character who has been in a radio program forever. Am in a group of twitter people who are tweeting about the radio program. Rule is not to tweet spoilers, because we are using time shifting.
14:17:01 [koalie]
scribenick: koalie
14:17:12 [koalie]
chaals: Web has a lot to do for accessibility
14:17:13 [artur]
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14:17:18 [dom]
s/Web/Web on TV/
14:17:28 [koalie]
... minimum thing we have to do. What can we do beyond that?
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14:17:36 [koalie]
scribenick: chaals
14:17:46 [chaals]
s/have to do/have to do to be as good as TV already is/
14:18:32 [chaals]
MV: There are basic things already - captioning is required. Requirement in US is to have parental control system built into TVs sold. Those will arrive in Web when government wakes up.
14:18:41 [Klaus]
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14:18:51 [chaals]
... Also multiple audio, e.g. for second language, or for descriptive audio.
14:19:19 [chaals]
... Another requirement is emergency alert - you have to be able to take over the content and provide emergency information like "torndao comng".
14:19:32 [chaals]
... what oes that mean on the web - how do we do that push, do we need to do them?
14:19:58 [chaals]
... Right now, things like captions and parental control are done on the TV device itself. Even a set-top box just passes that directly through.
14:20:19 [chaals]
... If a TV has a browser, does it use that to do captioning, or does it pass it into the codec?
14:20:34 [chaals]
... these are unanswered questions.
14:21:05 [chaals]
Phil: It is depressing to hear 'we do accessibility because government requires...' - is there anything more that people do?
14:21:52 [chaals]
MV: Now we are looking at things that go beyond requirements, can be easily delivered for relatively low cost. Using intereactive programs to delvier annotations adapted to individual users. These are exciting steps forward.
14:22:08 [chaals]
... We start with government stuff because we are not allowed to deliver signal until we have done them.
14:22:49 [chaals]
JeffJ: TV industry is diverse - people make devices, software, content, regulations and requirements. And these often differ by country. How do I think about getting a consensus of this industry.
14:23:08 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
14:23:08 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
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14:23:43 [chaals]
... You talked about multiple configurations and models and use cases. Is there a succinct use case hat needs to be focused-on by a subset of the industry to bring TV to the web, or is this a complex multiple-stakeholder topic that requires us to get each group of stakeholders at the table....
14:24:25 [Roger]
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14:24:37 [chaals]
DY: I think there is a consensus that we as the TV industry have urgent need for some minimal spec platform for smart TV. What we need to do here is unify the various existing specs and defragment them. Quickly, before it is too late.
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14:25:25 [chaals]
MV: There is a way to liaise with other groups, and think that is important: DLNA (TV manufacturers and broadcasting delivery folks) is one. They don't write standards they pick among existing ones.
14:25:35 [chaals]
... driving more unified requirements to thos groups would be helpful.
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14:26:18 [chaals]
YF: From content provider viewpoint there is a huge value chain, and in different countries the shape of the value chain is different. I think we can reach agreement about "one TV, one Web" around HTML5...
14:26:56 [chaals]
... We worked on java-based system 5 years ago, and compared to BML (XHTML1.1-based, used in Japan).
14:27:45 [chaals]
... We conclude that both languages can meet use cases. So constraints are resources, and the viewing styles of audiences. There ar many syntaces, but the semantics are the same at the base.
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14:28:41 [chaals]
Kaz: Please note that requirements are different by country. We held workshop in japan, we are planning another one in Europe in March.
14:29:08 [chaals]
... We have proposed IG with 4 co-chairs - Opera, NTT/ITU, Digi-Tomo and LGE.
14:29:22 [chaals]
... we want to work with broadcasters from many countries
14:29:44 [kaz]
14:29:56 [chaals]
??: Mobile browser vendor. Many complex problems. How do we define TV streaming protocol for HTML?
14:30:17 [kaz]
14:30:47 [chaals]
s/streaming/streaming and broadcast/
14:31:33 [chaals]
Phil: The answer is that we have an Interest Group which will define working items, and hope for a full Working Group, who will answer such questions.
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14:32:03 [chaals]
... We need standard APIs to unify the experience, whether from the TV on the sofa, or on the move, or ...
14:32:14 [Ian]
[Phil's phrase is quite a nice WG name: "Augmented TV Experience"]
14:32:27 [chaals]
... The Interest Group we are putting together to deal with this, and hope that if it is interesting to you, you will be there.
14:32:56 [chaals]
... When we started Mobile Web work, NTT DoCoMo came and asked 'where were you 5 years ago when we needed you?'
14:33:13 [chaals]
... Timing is critical - and we have run out of it. So please, join the IG.
14:33:47 [chaals]
[Phil apologises for misunderstanding the question which may mean it didn't get a clear answer]
14:34:17 [chaals]
[scribe is worried that he may have misunderstood it for minutes too..., but hopefully not :| ]
14:34:21 [chaals]
14:35:54 [vivien]
!!! Announcement: if you find a "Samsung Galaxy Spica smartphone" please bring it back to the registration desk (FYI it looks like this:
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Session 6: Bringing new work (Part II)
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Moderators: Marie-Claire Forgue (W3C) and Ian Jacobs (W3C)
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3D on the Web, by Kristian Sons (DFKI)
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-> slides
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KS: so many good graphics cards, but no 3D on the web, we have to adapt the web for 3D
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15:21:05 [rigo]
...must be in HTML to get it into the DOM
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15:21:30 [rigo]
...many developers know how to deal with DOM, javascript
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....W3C should play a role here
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15:22:07 [rigo]
...two project XML3D, introduce some stuff in HTML
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....X3DOM (Johannes) X3D concept and add W3C technology to it
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...specific things like 3D events
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15:23:12 [rigo]
...implementations on chrome and firefox, will be a hot topic on the web
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...will launch an XG and invite participation
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Johannes Behr, Fraunhofer
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X3D/DOM integration, W3DConsortium is a liaison since year
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...added a full javascript layer, or webGL layer for rendering of HTML with 3D
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15:25:32 [rigo]
... already used over the last 12 month, showing demos
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15:26:10 [rigo]
...simple append child and remove child to manipulate, chain queries on your data
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15:26:36 [rigo]
...can also play that on top of mpeg4 movies
15:27:03 [rigo]
...very fast & easy, all animation is done with CSS3, no javascript necessary
15:27:17 [rigo]
....DOM level 2 mouse events ...
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15:28:19 [rigo] far no W3C API to access the camera of laptop, so using flash here
15:28:37 [rigo] get this video into the browser
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15:28:44 [rigo]
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D.Appelquist: Noting: Siggraph 1991, seen demos on computer graphics, so many demos around 3D. Since 1991 have enourmous industry building around 3D. We are at the same turning point, see an industry developing here
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"video took off when video was available on the web; waiting for the same thing for 3d"
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KS: video took off when there was video on the web, we hope for the same in 3D
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Point of Interests for the Web, by Matt Womer (W3C)
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-> slides
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MW: on behalf of Andy ?? chair of the POI Group who sent me notes
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...e.g.: Pixar. Who will be the Pixar of the 3d Web?
15:32:18 [rigo]
... showing tubes, getting more and more detached
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15:32:35 [rigo] user interface paradigm, augmented reality, becoming hot topic
15:32:54 [rigo]
...W3C looking into it, how web and AR could work together
15:33:25 [rigo]
....AR experts got together, where standardization is need. Information about location and ?? is needed
15:33:56 [rigo]
...more uses to POI than augmented reality, 4chan and others, navigation apps, searching, wikipedia...
15:34:29 [rigo]
....Group is doing format to represent information about places. Public mailing list, encourage everybody to join
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15:34:46 [rigo]
...looking for future places where AR makes sense on the Web
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15:35:04 [rigo]
....see how it works with web techno
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15:35:21 [rigo]
15:35:33 [rigo]
Taking Accessibility to the Next Dimension: Thoughts About Canvas 3D, by Martin Kliehm
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-> slides
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15:36:16 [rigo]
MK: HMTL WG and Accessibility TF
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15:37:06 [rigo]
MK: people getting creative, space invaders in your browser in canvas
15:37:25 [rigo]
...need some fallback content for canvas
15:37:50 [rigo]
...for image here is easy, need a shadow DOM, will only be used if hte browser doesn't support
15:38:09 [rigo]
... focus on bitmap for key readers
15:38:18 [rigo]
...caret position for editing text
15:38:38 [rigo] appeared (infinite adventure 3D..)
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15:39:09 [rigo] number of characters facing the player.. .
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15:39:38 [rigo]
...main challenge in game is reaction time, hinders disabled people to play, there are techniques, readers...
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15:39:56 [rigo]
....but things go directly to GPU and GPU gives no alternative access
15:40:33 [rigo]
....second life don't have alt text, so difficult to move with alternative ....
15:41:07 [rigo]
...W3C should get into contact with stakeholders as accessibility bolt on will be ugly
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XML Performance, by Mohamed Zergaoui (Innovimax)
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-> slides
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MZ: performance is a feature that everybody wants
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...who cares for XML, Web? -> many hands
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...evaluate performance on the web...
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could be an IG or a WG, a new way to express performance
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15:43:43 [rigo]
....XML still perceived as slow, real problem
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...standards and products are mature, toolchain available
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....native XML databases very efficient (other examples)
15:45:12 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ian
15:45:16 [rigo]
also on Size: EXI
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...keep all the infoset and get size smaller
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15:46:07 [rigo]
....missing tools to improve performance, missing communication
15:46:22 [rigo]
....encourage to organize a workshop on performance
15:46:28 [rigo]
15:47:06 [rigo]
Frederick Hirsch: XML 2.0 Signature performance
15:47:20 [rigo]
RogerC: testsuite associated on EXI
15:47:32 [rigo]
MZ: not focused on performance and tools
15:47:40 [rigo]
15:47:45 [rigo]
WOFF: Benefits beyond Beauty, by Chris Lilley (W3C)
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CL: how many people (fast stunt)
15:48:19 [rigo]
...fonts not really new
15:48:36 [rigo]
...CSS2 had web fonts, intelligent matching, all sorts of stuff
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15:48:41 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
15:48:41 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
15:48:55 [rigo]
...format wars, no decision where to point to
15:49:21 [rigo]
...SVG WebFonts, mandated format, on some platforms (mobile) but not on desktop
15:49:34 [rigo]
....5 years of massive confusion and we got WOFF
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15:50:09 [rigo]
....font vendors coming in..... creating WG, => REC
15:50:22 [rigo]
...expect LC and CR cool
15:50:44 [rigo]
...not a format format, compressed font tables, licensing information
15:51:09 [rigo]
....can do by itself nothing, but combination with CSS it can do interesting things
15:51:29 [rigo]
....showing all kinds of scripts...
15:51:45 [rigo]
...instead of using pictures as fonts
15:51:55 [rigo]
15:52:12 [rigo]
show off with WOFF
15:52:39 [Steven]
is there a list somewhere of available fonts?
15:52:42 [rigo]
??: Yahoo: if ?? fonts are used, if symbols are used?
15:52:53 [rigo] is this addressed to the textual alternative
15:53:06 [Ralph]
s/??:/Artur Ortega:/
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CL: people rely on hacks today, will have correct font in the future
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s/?? font/wingbats font/
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AO: what if you have flying pigeon?
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TV: file of Unicode that has a pigeon-character
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CL: you can use a freefont and embed
15:54:26 [koalie]
s/person: When/ArtOrtega_Yahoo: When/
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AO: what if images
15:54:34 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
15:54:34 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
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CL: you're using text
15:54:50 [rigo]
15:54:59 [rigo]
Privacy for the evolving Web Platform, by Thomas Roessler (W3C)
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TLR: people have concerns
15:55:26 [rigo]
...privacy by design is on the agenda again
15:55:38 [rigo]
....evercookie is just one example of many
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15:56:01 [rigo]
....canvas is also
15:56:05 [koalie]
15:56:06 [rigo]
...fix canvas?
15:56:07 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
15:56:07 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
15:56:12 [rigo], same origin
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15:56:26 [rigo]
....many people use cookies
15:56:54 [rigo]
everkookie forces tracking on people and do not allow them to use tools to get rid of it
15:57:13 [rigo]
we need to talk about what the role of the vendors is
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we need to talk about role of W3C
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15:58:05 [rigo]
W3C has organized workshops in November 09, July 10 and October 10, Next Workshop on 8-9 December
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deadline is on 5 November
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15:59:08 [rigo]
DA: I did not say "let's fix canvas" but I'm not saying "as intended" either. Everkookie has shown that we have to consider that question
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tlr: what canvas does is that it works within a given same origin context. But how we let users control what happens in this context ...
16:00:38 [rigo]
David Singer: how penombra of privacy goes. We should not just blindly implement specifications without privacy considerations
16:00:50 [rigo]
tlr: precisely the aim of the workshop
16:00:54 [rigo]
16:01:05 [rigo]
Web and philosophy, by Alexandre Monnin (University Panthéon – Sorbonne, Paris 1)
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-> slides
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AM: first web in philo event in the world organized in Paris
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16:02:16 [rigo]
....philoweb 2010, conducted interviews with experts on knowledge engineering
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....had a mix of engineers and philosopers and computer scientists
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...topics ontology ... (see slides)
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...abstracts are online, slides on slideshare
16:03:46 [rigo]
IAWP International Association for Web and Philosophy cerated
16:03:47 [DKA]
+1 to Thomas's talk by the way - we need to ensure that the public perception of HTML5 is privacy++, and the current message from press is very much the opposite, eg:
16:04:17 [rigo] installements under way, London and Mountain View
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-> see conclusions on slide
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??: lot of web stuff seems to draw in AI, have you been using the connection that AI was drawing a lot of discussion from philosophers
16:06:23 [rigo]
...yes, Harry knows more..
16:07:03 [rigo]
tlr: privacy challenges are partly practical, but also philosophical, looking forward to hear back
16:07:07 [rigo]
16:07:25 [rigo]
Making W3C the place for new standards, by Ian Jacobs (W3C)
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s/??:/ Sarah-Jane Farmer:/
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-> slides
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starting MIME....
16:08:05 [rigo]
....but I'm not the MIME/type
16:08:13 [rigo]
16:08:21 [dom]
s/starting MIME/start mime/
16:08:45 [rigo]
presenting obstacles in participation of W3C (unfamiliar structure)
16:08:53 [dom]
16:09:00 [rigo] standards TF studied prob space
16:09:28 [rigo]
...primary use case, some people in W3C and outside W3C want to cooperate around a non-mature thing
16:09:43 [rigo]
...anybody can participate at zero cost
16:09:55 [rigo]
....balanced patent policy
16:10:05 [rigo]
...OWF found out a good compromise
16:10:11 [rigo] time limitation
16:10:30 [rigo]
...smooth transition to standards track, but not forced to go REC track
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16:10:38 [rigo]
....also bits for liaisons
16:10:52 [rigo]
...there will be a forum, with help we can make it shiny
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....momentum to create community specifications, will look differently
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Community Group is zero revenue and low cost
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..created other groups called business groups with some staff
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...requirements WGs to have hi bandwitdth with chairs
16:12:12 [rigo]
...constructive participation improves our work
16:12:30 [rigo]
...raises number of people coming to standards process and helps us find customers
16:12:35 [rigo]
16:12:58 [koalie]
[free hugs, anyone?]
16:13:06 [koalie]
[Mic, anyone?]
16:13:12 [rigo]
Quickly creating new proposals to advance the Web, by Michael Champion (Microsoft)
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-> slides
16:13:50 [rigo]
MC: MSFT gives an official blessing to this new proposal
16:14:03 [rigo]
...we want to see the next generation web standards happen at W3C
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16:14:12 [rigo] do that there have to be process innovations
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16:14:37 [rigo]
...people in the community have to be responsible, drive architecture, brainstorm for new ideas
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16:15:14 [rigo]
....use case we see: person or group has some nice idea, want a way to get a proposal uploaded and visibility to get comments from community
16:15:38 [rigo]
.... with some confidence, this needs some straightforward IPR policy, OWF is good starting template
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16:16:05 [rigo] spec... get to REC may even go to International Standard via W3C PAS status in ISO
16:16:30 [rigo]
...we wanted to see it under W3C umbrella, but people don't want to sell their soul in order to participate
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16:16:46 [rigo]
...IJ talked about throwing ideas
16:16:57 [rigo]
...3D canvas, a lot of attention, great
16:17:22 [rigo]
....all browser have debugging API, do we need a standard for that, let's talk about it
16:17:44 [rigo]
....idea of profiling W3C REcs, e.g. for email, why not community form for profiling
16:17:47 [rigo] about it
16:18:14 [rigo]
.... Jquery note lists is a powerful idea, it is worth integrating into the other APIs?
16:18:39 [rigo]
....getting the end user and web developers/publishers into discussion what the real interoperable subset should be
16:19:25 [rigo]
IJ: mentioned OWF licenses, current proposal adapts them, are in close contact with Larry Rosen and ???
16:19:51 [rigo]
RC: what would prevent a community group to do harmful stuff
16:19:58 [rigo]
IJ: is not a business group
16:20:04 [rigo]
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...we will install mechanisms to prevent that on a social level...
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16:20:53 [rigo]
.... currently also managing discussions, also talking to Tantek
16:21:35 [rigo]
DG: HTML email, had workshop, main prob is change of renderer in MSFT mailers
16:21:43 [rigo]
...problem of rendering engine
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JB: at german W3C days, asked about developers fees and positive responses
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...perhaps consider lower fees for developers and freelancers
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IJ: community proposal is not from scratch, have experience from XG
16:23:25 [rigo]
16:23:35 [rigo]
The inventor of the glazman-o-meter
16:23:47 [rigo]
RB: DAP image prob
16:24:27 [rigo]
... some people think that DAP is working for widget api and that it could not work with a browser
16:24:30 [rigo]
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16:25:31 [rigo]
....caring for privacy and security, following the browser security model, looking into metaphores
16:25:42 [rigo] metaphore for deleting content
16:26:14 [rigo]
...also other stuff that is not very browser centric, but does not mean that this will have prioritiess
16:26:30 [rigo]
...where comes the heat from?
16:26:40 [rigo]
...looking forward for solutions
16:26:46 [rigo]
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IJ: 2 communities have started communications, some barriers were overcome, some persist
16:27:52 [rigo]
RB : those people saying DAP is not following the web model should come talk to us
16:28:07 [rigo]
IJ: I heard Robin offer to buy a beer later
16:28:20 [rigo]
MCF: many thanks to all speakers and audience
16:29:02 [koalie]
Topic: Let's not leave any stone unturned
16:29:08 [koalie]
scribenick: koalie
16:29:20 [koalie]
Jeff: Let's address whatever is on your mind.
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... I'm inviting Tim on stage to be available to address comments.
16:29:51 [matt]
scribenick: matt
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16:30:40 [matt]
@@Innovimax: We had an item come up recently around zip. It has a fuzzy license. I'd be interested in feedback as it's being used in widgets, as the ?? working group would like help resolving this.
16:30:51 [matt]
Jefff: I don't know anything offhand. If anyone knows, please come to the mic.
16:30:51 [Ralph]
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[Jim Melton, Oracle]
16:31:21 [matt]
Jim: It will be addressed next week at the JTC-1 Plenary.
16:31:28 [matt]
s/Jim: /Jim Melton:/
16:31:30 [Ralph]
16:31:45 [matt]
Jeff: We'll be sending someone to the plenary, so we can caucus there as well.
16:31:58 [matt]
Jeff: I take it everyone is satisfiied.
16:32:07 [matt]
16:32:20 [matt]
??: What are you unhappy about?
16:32:22 [koalie]
[please, fill out the feedback survey: ]
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16:33:30 [matt]
Jeff: I started just a few months ago. My tenure was still counted in days when there was the famous article in Wired magazine that declared: "The Web is Dead"
16:33:54 [matt]
Jeff: I was unhappy about that for a while. I thought TPAC would be a good personal test for me to answer the question: is the Web dead?
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16:34:19 [matt]
Jeff: One of my responsibilities as chair of TPAC is to summarize the day. So my summary is: the Web is not dead.
16:34:27 [ivan]
16:34:35 [matt]
Jeff: Considering the function and scope covered. We had one day, 40 people presenting. All exciting ideas.
16:34:50 [matt]
Jeff: I worry about how we'll get it all done, but it's exciting.
16:35:01 [matt]
Jeff: The subtext here is you can't believe everything you read in the press.
16:35:33 [matt]
Mohamed: I'm talking at a conference, XML @@. If people know about it, please make some noise.
16:35:45 [Ralph]
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16:36:23 [matt]
Mohamed: It will be in March in Prague. People are welcome to have w3c meetings there too. Please go to xmlprauge.??
16:36:23 [koalie]
-> XML Prague
16:36:29 [matt]
16:36:40 [koalie]
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16:36:58 [matt]
Mohamed: We're pleased to have w3c participation.
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16:37:41 [darobin]
-> XML Prague 2011 CfP
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16:38:10 [matt]
??: I can't help but noticing that the IETF meeting in Prague starts right after that meeting too.
16:38:20 [matt]
Jeff: We're considering having a community group on Web meetings.
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16:38:49 [matt]
AnnB: This is probably the quietest meeting I've ever been at. The room is crowded, but quiet? What is it?
16:38:57 [masinter]
people hummed!
16:39:02 [koalie]
16:39:02 [matt]
glazou: There was not a lot of time for questions.
16:39:18 [matt]
timbl: I think it's the jetlag not working for people.
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16:40:14 [matt]
timbl: ?? said something positive. Everyone is busy, they've got stuff to do, but it's not at the top of people's minds to complain. By continuing to talk here we're probably even preventing people from editing documents.
16:40:33 [matt]
chaals: I think the atmosphere has been good. There's no reason to rip holes in people, they've been saying sensible things.
16:41:08 [chaals]
s/saying/mostly saying/
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16:41:20 [matt]
Ileana: I think it was an excellent session, many new ideas. A popping environment. At the same time though, at least 50% of this room are not native English speakers. You need some time to understand the new idea, and appreciate it, and by then the three minutes are done.
16:41:48 [matt]
AnnB: It's an important point. In the AB we have talked about this before. Anyone in the room who wants to submit suggestions, that would be really valuable.
16:42:21 [DKA]
Idea: simultaneous translation services provided remotely via amazon mechanical turk and VoIP.
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16:42:32 [matt]
AnnB: I once was told a comment by someone and encouraged them to step up and ask it, but they were concerned they couldn't understand the response.
16:42:35 [chaals]
s/people, they've/people when they've/
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16:43:04 [matt]
PaulC: People asked me why the hum? It was a good way to get participation regardless of your mother tongue.
16:43:11 [koalie]
s/Idea:/Here's an Idea:/
16:43:19 [matt]
One of the rules in JTC-1 is that the meeting only goes as fast as the understanding of the slowest person.
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16:43:52 [matt]
I'd like everyone to think about facilitating participation. Repeat questions slowly. Repeat answers slowly. It's simple politeness to your peers.
16:44:10 [sasan]
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16:44:20 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
16:44:20 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
16:44:21 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ian
16:44:51 [matt]
PhilA: In every sense, I'm a native English speaker. I've had the privilege of touring the world and meeting many friends around the world. I'm eternally grateful for so many hours that have been put into learning our language.
16:45:14 [matt]
PhilA: Maybe one reason for the quietness: the Web is a victim of it's own success. Look at the early specs. The people who wrote them are too busy making a living out of it.
16:45:26 [matt]
PhilA: All the RDF people are too busy making money off it to make RDF2.
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16:45:50 [koalie]
16:45:52 [matt]
timbl: I apologize for being one of the fastest and mumbly speakers around.
16:46:17 [ivan]
actually, not absolutely true, we will get some of the old rdf guys in the new group (if it is set up...)
16:46:22 [matt]
timbl: Often it is really hard for the scribes, but I wonder if one possibility would be to have the IRC channel with simultaneous scribing projected to the side?
16:46:28 [matt]
16:46:39 [Ian]
[lots of support for projection of IRC scribing]
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16:46:59 [matt]
Liam: One reason we have fewer questions: people are making more productive use of IRC and the 2nd channel.
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16:47:17 [koalie]
[+1 to project IRC scribings]
16:47:19 [matt]
Liam: We're doing very interesting things with the bots. What about experimenting with simultaneous translation?
16:47:32 [matt]
timbl: To IRC?
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16:47:35 [matt]
Liam: Yes.
16:47:40 [Ian]
Liam: translating minutes into multiple languages
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16:47:46 [matt]
jeff: I think it would be a great idea to do that if only we had the skilled people to do that.
16:48:01 [matt]
Jeff: It's not easy, if anyone would like to volunteer let's try it as an expertiment.
16:48:03 [Ian]
jeff: Quiconque qui veut se presenter est le bienvenue.
16:48:12 [matt]
chaals: I've been to conferences and done that.
16:48:14 [koalie]
Ian :)
16:48:58 [matt]
chaals: The trick is finding people to do it. Looking at the minutes, sometimes they're very detailed.
16:49:09 [matt]
16:49:12 [ivan]
I am, formally. bilingual, but I would never accept to do such a translation
16:49:15 [matt]
chaals: The quality is patchy, but you can try.
16:49:32 [matt]
jeff: When I was thanking earlier, I left out the scribes.
16:50:07 [Steven]
Stream the IRC through Google translate
16:50:43 [matt]
Daniel: As a non-native speaker, I appreciate Ann and others taking care to help non-native participation. We also have to take into account that there are culture differences. We need more time to speak up. I'll speak up more at next TPAC. I really appreciate W3Cs kind and helpful and good to non-native speakers. Thank you.
16:50:44 [glazou]
Steven: is it fast enough ?
16:50:56 [dom]
16:51:10 [Steven]
I think so
16:51:19 [matt]
Kaz: Keio provided simultaneous translation for Web on TV workshop. It was very useful.
16:51:21 [koalie]
16:51:51 [matt]
hhalpin: From a broader perspective, with Ian's community group effort: I'm doing outreach from Ireland to SF and it's crap trying to communicate. I'm wondering how W3C plans to get in touch with emerging economies that might not know of W3C at all.
16:52:02 [chaals]
[+1 to usefulness of translation enabling people to just speak their preferred language]
16:52:08 [matt]
hhalpin: The 2nd thing I'd like to hear about is time based requirements for the Rec process.
16:52:21 [matt]
hhalpin: I'd like to see it clarified and feedback on what it takes to make a WG.
16:52:30 [ivan]
W3C Brazil had a meeting in Sao Paulo a few weeks ago which was translated simultaneously into Portuguese; it was really efficient, but needed two professional translators to get it working
16:52:42 [Kangchan]
s/SoohongDanielPark/Soohong Daniel Park/
16:52:47 [matt]
hhalpin: Some activities start a full scale working group based on three Universities, others need browser vendors. I'd like to hear what the right conditions would be.
16:52:56 [rahul]
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16:53:01 [koalie]
RRSagent, make minutes
16:53:01 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate koalie
16:53:31 [matt]
timbl: For many of the things, the questions had different attitudes. It's different in every working group. When we started this thing we had activity statements. It had to answer whether it was lead by industry or academics.
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16:53:53 [matt]
timbl: I think it's really important that W3C doesn't decide that those answers should be the same for every WG.
16:54:16 [Barstow]
+1 TBL!
16:54:18 [Kangchan]
s/Soohong Daniel Park/Soohong_Daniel_Park/
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16:54:26 [matt]
timbl: We should keep it as a flexible tool. Never build something that constrains it more. Within that, each different area of activity tends to have different answers.
16:54:54 [matt]
jeff: Thanks Harry for broadening the language and cultural norms. One of the norms for people to learn is coming to the mic after the queue is closed.
16:55:28 [matt]
Ian: The new community groups should have a shiny new landing page for how we get stuff done. We don't have any funding for that design.
16:55:29 [chaals]
[controversy != doing useful work]
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16:55:45 [matt]
Ian: Tomorrow night we have a meetup here at the conference center between 7 and 9. Everyone is invited. 150 local developers and designers. Free food and wine.
16:56:24 [matt]
rigo: There was a lot of chat in the back channel where we searched for creative ideas for tempests for more discussion. I had an idea but you closed the queue, so I'll spare you it.
16:56:37 [timeless_mbp]
s/7 and 9/7pm and 9pm/
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16:57:13 [matt]
jeff: In terms of the schedule: next thing for everyone to do is fill out the evaluation survey.
16:57:20 [koalie]
-> Feedback survey
16:57:24 [matt]
jeff: Then at 7pm we have the reception on level 2.
16:57:27 [koalie]
[^ please, take the survey]
16:57:32 [amy]
Reception tonight: 19:00, Forum Level 2 (down by the lunch area)
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16:57:48 [matt]
jeff: Now we've learned that in 3 minute increments we can't get people to ask questions. So people should feel free to approach people and ask questions.
16:58:04 [koalie]
[reception is at level -2]
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16:58:15 [matt]
jeff: After that, the week isn't over, 2 more days of meetings. As Ian noted we have a public meetup.
16:58:30 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate Ian
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16:59:29 [matt]
jeff: There are an unlimited number of future conferences related to Web technologies. The next Multilingual Workshop is in March in Pisa. WWW is also in March in Hyperbad. There's a Web TV related WS, date not finalized. WWW 2012 will be in this conference center.
16:59:39 [matt]
jeff: Our next AC meeting will be in May in Bilbao.
16:59:58 [matt]
jeff: It's limited to just the AC, but in this case there will also be a number of companion meetings at the same time.
17:00:15 [kaz]
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17:00:36 [bblfish]
ah ok got it
17:00:42 [matt]
Xavier: I wanted to present the best conference, but Mohamed already did that, so this is the second best conference.
17:00:54 [AnnB]
Xavier Uribe-Extebarria
17:01:01 [kaz]
17:01:20 [kaz]
17:01:31 [bblfish]
is there a log of this channel?
17:01:35 [matt]
Xavier: W3B conference and AC meeting. W3B Conference is the global event that brings together key experts and key organizations discussing the Present and Future of the Web.
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17:01:51 [kaz]
17:01:52 [Marco_Ranon]
17:02:02 [kaz]
17:02:03 [rigo]
bblfish, yes, this is the channel where minutes are taken
17:02:29 [matt]
Xabier: Awarded World City prize.
17:02:45 [matt]
Xabier: Hotels, conference center, shopping, museum, all within half a mile.
17:03:39 [matt]
Xabier: Lots of support, the Mayor and the Spanish government, everyone involved. Euskalduna Conference Centre and Concert Hall. Awarded ??. Want to fill 2,200 people
17:03:55 [matt]
It's the biggest stage in Spain.
17:04:01 [matt]
We'll be doing webcasting.
17:04:17 [matt]
Afterwards we'll be doing a gala at the Guggenheim. Free for AC members.
17:04:28 [matt]
[tentative schedule[
17:04:35 [Bert]
(Xabier explained that "W3B" had the B of Bilbao, but also of Business.)
17:04:54 [matt]
Xabier: starts on Sunday May 15.
17:04:58 [matt]
See you there!
17:05:28 [matt]
jeff: We do not yet have the venue for TPAC 2011. We'll get that to you when it's available. See you in an hour for the reception. Thank you!
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I have made the request to generate Ian
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