10:13:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #forms
10:13:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-forms-irc
10:13:59 <Steven> rrsagent, make log public
10:14:16 <Steven> Meeting: Forms WG FtF, TPAC Lyon, Day 2
10:14:20 <Steven> cHAIR: sTEVEN
10:14:26 <Steven> Chair: Steven
10:14:31 <Steven> Scribe: Steven
10:14:56 <Steven> [Morning session, spec hacking and other action items]
10:15:46 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #forms
10:16:55 <MoZ> MoZ has joined #forms
10:18:30 <Steven> zakim, room for 5 for 120 minutes?
10:18:33 <Zakim> ok, Steven; conference Team_(forms)10:18Z scheduled with code 26632 (CONF2) for 120 minutes until 1218Z
10:18:59 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Forms FtF@TPAC, code is CONF2 (26632)
10:19:13 <Steven> zakim, dial rosaraie_2
10:19:13 <Zakim> I am sorry, Steven; I do not know a number for rosaraie_2
10:19:16 <Zakim> Team_(forms)10:18Z has now started
10:19:23 <Zakim> +unl
10:19:25 <Steven> zakim, dial roseraie_2
10:19:25 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
10:19:26 <Zakim> -unl
10:19:26 <Zakim> +unl
10:19:26 <Zakim> +Roseraie_2
10:23:36 <unl> http://www.sklar.com/badgerfish/
10:23:41 <Steven> Topic: JSON
10:28:45 <Steven> [Uli posts a link to Badgerfish]
10:29:21 <nick> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Round_11
10:29:44 <Steven> Steven: We don't need badgerfish, because its aim is differnt: to encode general XML as JSON
10:30:00 <Steven> ... we only need to read and round trip existing JSON
10:30:06 <Steven> ... so our requirements are simpler\
10:46:43 <unl> zakim, mute me
10:46:43 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
10:46:49 <unl> zakim, make coffee
10:46:49 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make coffee', unl
10:47:10 <unl> zakim, no biscuit
10:47:10 <Zakim> I don't understand 'no biscuit', unl
10:52:20 <Steven> :-)
11:17:54 <John_Boyer> John_Boyer has joined #forms
11:18:16 <Steven> Steven: The correct format for internal links in the wiki is: [[#my-id|text to be shown]]
11:18:40 <Steven> ... and then use <span id="my-id">bla bla bla</span>
11:18:54 <Steven> I have now corrected the references in the wiki-spec
11:19:02 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki
11:19:28 <Steven> Steven: Nick is now doing some edits to test out the XHTML production
11:19:33 <John_Boyer> zakim, code?
11:19:33 <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), John_Boyer
11:19:37 <Steven> ... then I shall correct the definition links
11:20:35 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
11:20:59 <Steven> ... I note that there are two (non-normative) refs that are in the spec that we don't use: ODF 1.1, and XForms Basic
11:23:04 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki
11:27:53 <nick> nick has joined #forms
11:28:38 <unl> zakim, unmute me
11:28:38 <Zakim> unl should no longer be muted
11:28:46 <Steven> Present: Nick, Raman, Uli, John, Jaehyuk(observer)
11:28:52 <Steven> Topic: Transform
11:29:05 <Steven> John: I wondered if Uli can live with the function version of transform
11:29:21 <Steven> Uli: Of course
11:29:32 <Steven> ... but I would like to see an action version too
11:29:47 <Steven> Nick: Why? You can create the action version with the function version
11:30:07 <John_Boyer> action version is "insert blah blah blah origin="transform()" ...
11:30:07 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - version
11:30:34 <Steven> ... <insert ref="whatever" origin="transform(...)"
11:34:51 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms11/
11:39:20 <Steven> Steven: In the wiki-spec, you have to write <nowiki>[</nowiki>[[#ref-xforms-1.0|XForms 1.0]]<nowiki>]</nowiki>
11:39:34 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
11:39:35 <Steven> Topic: Lunch
11:39:38 <Zakim> -unl
11:39:52 <Zakim> -Roseraie_2
11:39:53 <Zakim> Team_(forms)10:18Z has ended
11:39:55 <Zakim> Attendees were unl, Roseraie_2, John_Boyer
12:13:35 <klotz> zakim, code?
12:13:35 <Zakim> the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), klotz
12:14:12 <Zakim> Team_(forms)10:18Z has now started
12:14:19 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
12:21:45 <unl> unl has joined #forms
12:23:00 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Leigh_Klotz, in Team_(forms)10:18Z
12:23:03 <Zakim> Team_(forms)10:18Z has ended
12:23:03 <Zakim> Attendees were Leigh_Klotz
12:24:11 <klotz> hi uli (unl) i called in but they're not back from lunch yet.
12:24:38 <unl> no, apparently not ;)
12:25:00 <unl> btw: todays conf code is 26632
12:27:40 <nick> nick has joined #forms
12:29:59 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
12:30:11 <Steven> zakim, who is here?
12:30:11 <Zakim> apparently Team_(forms)10:18Z has ended, Steven
12:30:12 <Zakim> On IRC I see Steven, nick, unl, John_Boyer, MoZ, Zakim, RRSAgent, beverloo, markbirbeck, klotz, trackbot
12:30:21 <Steven> Anybody awake?
12:31:13 <Jaehyuk> Jaehyuk has joined #Forms
12:31:16 <unl> Steven, Leigh was here about 10 minutes ago
12:31:26 <Steven> oh good!
12:31:32 <klotz> hi
12:32:16 <klotz> apparently the conference ended.
12:32:47 <Steven> for lunch
12:33:17 <klotz> i called it but it closed at :18 when I disconnected and now it's not started again yet.
12:33:46 <Steven> zakim, room for 5 for 240 minutes?
12:33:47 <Zakim> ok, Steven; conference Team_(forms)12:33Z scheduled with code 26631 (CONF1) for 240 minutes until 1633Z
12:34:07 <Steven> Steven has changed the topic to: Code is CONF1 (26631)
12:34:18 <Steven> zakim, dial roseraie_2
12:34:18 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
12:34:19 <Zakim> Team_(forms)12:33Z has now started
12:34:20 <Zakim> +Roseraie_2
12:34:29 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
12:34:30 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
12:34:30 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
12:34:34 <Zakim> +??P5
12:34:53 <John_Boyer> zakim, code?
12:34:53 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), John_Boyer
12:35:08 <unl> zakim, who is on the phone?
12:35:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Roseraie_2, Leigh_Klotz, ??P5
12:35:28 <unl> zakim, ??P5 seems to be me
12:35:28 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P5 seems to be me', unl
12:35:37 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
12:35:41 <unl> zakim, ??P5 is me
12:35:41 <Zakim> +unl; got it
12:37:52 <Steven> 01<nowiki>[</nowiki>[[#ref-xforms-1.0|XForms 1.0]]<nowiki>]</nowiki>
12:38:26 <Steven> <cite id="ref-xforms-1.0">
12:39:57 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki#References
12:45:59 <alain> alain has joined #forms
12:53:43 <Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Category:XForms12
13:01:54 <Steven> John: Should transform() be required?
13:02:01 <Steven> Steven: I think so
13:02:07 <Steven> Leigh: I disagree
13:02:45 <Steven> ... all our modules should be optional
13:02:55 <Steven> ... and te ones that make it should be required
13:03:03 <Steven> s/ te / the /
13:03:20 <Steven> Leigh: By CR, if this has been implemented by enough implementations
13:03:50 <Steven> ... in the beginning, we thought we had to profile XPath, because some members objected to us requiring IEEE floats
13:06:20 <Steven> Steven: I'm OK with schema validation being optional, because all forms still work
13:06:38 <Steven> .... but if transform() is optional then some forms won't work everywhere anymore
13:06:56 <Steven> Leigh: All implementations have extensions
13:07:15 <Steven> ... if at least two vendors have an extension then it should be done the same way
13:07:22 <Steven> Steven has left #forms
13:07:53 <Steven> Steven has joined #forms
13:08:27 <Steven> John: I think requiring all implementations to have transform() is too heavy
13:08:53 <John_Boyer> I'd comment that there is a conformance level between optional and required called recommended
13:09:17 <Steven> Steven: I'm OK with optional modules, just not saying it is a part of 1.2
13:09:38 <John_Boyer> Even if you got two interoperating implementations of this feature, that might escalate up from optional perhaps, but consider recommended rather than required
13:10:32 <Steven> John: Uli mentions other transform languages
13:12:08 <Steven> Leigh: I don't agree with the idea that 1.2 has to be all the features that are required
13:12:13 <Steven> ... that would prevent progress
13:13:44 <Steven> ... we should get consensus on feature people want
13:13:55 <Steven> s/feature/features/
13:14:48 <Steven> Steven: I think we agree
13:15:04 <alain> Implementing all 1.2 features in XSLTForms will require time...
13:15:33 <Steven> ... I just think we are discussing this in the wrong place
13:17:36 <Steven> Leigh: I hope that the XPath 1.0/2.0 will go away
13:17:55 <Steven> John: I think that XPath 2.0 will make it to the required level
13:18:06 <Steven> Leigh: I'm glad to hear you say that
13:18:30 <Steven> ... but I think XSLT will be optional
13:18:54 <John_Boyer> s/John: I think that XPath 2.0 will make it to the required level/John: I think that XPath 2.0 will make it to the recommended level
13:20:27 <Steven> John: I think we will get enough XPath 2.0 implementations to get it out of CR so it doessn't need to be optional
13:20:45 <Steven> s/ss/s/
13:24:54 <Steven> Leigh: I see this as valuable, even if in 2 years it is still optional
13:27:19 <John_Boyer> XPath 1.0 is required, XPath 2.0 should be optional or recommended, probably recommended
13:27:54 <John_Boyer> The transform function should be optional; maybe it should become recommended, but right now it can be added as an extension
13:28:06 <John_Boyer> so it is already an optional module
13:44:52 <klotz> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Transform
13:46:13 <Steven> Nick: We need language to decide how we know if it is a string or a node
13:47:04 <Steven> John: We want to support xslt for the present
13:47:43 <Steven> Nick: We can say that the result is a string or a node and with xslt the difference is triggered by the output mode
13:48:06 <Steven> ...and mention that there can be other transformation languages
13:48:19 <Steven> John: Not sure we have decided that there are more languages yet
13:48:55 <Steven> ... but if the transform doesn't understand the language or can't resolve the link, we need to say what happends
13:49:03 <Steven> s/happends/happens
13:51:12 <Steven> Action: Nick to update the transform() wiki spec
13:51:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-645 - Update the transform() wiki spec [on Nick Van Den Bleeken - due 2010-11-09].
13:51:49 <Steven> Leigh: Uli asked about XProc or XQuery
13:52:25 <Steven> Uli: Do we limit the transform to xslt, or if we extend it, how do we identify it?
13:52:32 <Steven> John: Mediatype of the link?
13:52:42 <Steven> Uli: I agree
13:53:14 <Steven> John: Do we specify that implementations MAY use other languages?
13:53:40 <Steven> Leigh: We could make it a required function with no required transformation languages
13:53:47 <Steven> ... make everyone unhappy
13:53:56 <Steven> John: [laughs]
13:54:21 <Steven> Leigh: We could say it has no side effects
13:55:13 <Steven> Leigh: You should be able to specify what type of mediatype it is
13:57:29 <unl> +1
13:57:30 <Steven> ... do we want to remove mention of XSLT except in examples?
13:58:08 <Steven> ... how do we pass variables?
13:59:50 <Steven> Present+John, Leigh, Uli
13:59:57 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
13:59:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-forms-minutes.html Steven
13:59:59 <unl> Passing parameters/variables would be easier with an transform action ;)
14:00:31 <Steven> s/sTEVEN/Steven/
14:00:35 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:00:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-forms-minutes.html Steven
14:01:31 <Steven> i/John: Should transform() be required?/Topic: Transform (more)
14:01:37 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
14:01:37 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-forms-minutes.html Steven
14:02:31 <klotz> I see this at the top of the wiki page: {{#css:CSS/tr.css}} 
14:02:48 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
14:02:50 <Zakim> -unl
14:02:52 <Steven> Coffee
14:03:02 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
14:03:08 <Steven> Leigh, we have assked for the CSS module to be implemented
14:29:15 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
14:29:19 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
14:29:19 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
14:32:21 <John_Boyer> zakim, code?
14:32:21 <Zakim> the conference code is 26631 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), John_Boyer
14:32:58 <Zakim> +John_Boyer
14:33:44 <Zakim> +unl
14:45:35 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_First_Edition_Errata
14:47:31 <unl> zakim, mute me
14:47:31 <Zakim> unl should now be muted
14:48:58 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
14:49:03 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki#Documentation_Conventions
14:49:46 <John_Boyer> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki#ref-xhtml-1.0
14:49:53 <Zakim> +Leigh_Klotz
14:51:36 <John_Boyer> [</nowiki>[[#ref-xhtml-1.0 |XHTML 1.0]]<nowiki>]</nowiki>
14:51:59 <John_Boyer> specref ref="ref-xhtml-1.0"/>
14:52:08 <John_Boyer> s/specref/<specref
14:53:13 <John_Boyer> XHTML, ODF or SVG
14:53:32 <John_Boyer> [XHTML 1.0], [ODF], or [SVG]
14:57:50 <John_Boyer> [[#ref-odf-1.1|ODF]]
14:57:57 <John_Boyer> [ODF]
14:57:59 <John_Boyer> ?
14:58:30 <John_Boyer> [[http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.1/OS/OpenDocument-v1.1-html/OpenDocument-v1.1.html ODF]]
15:11:06 <John_Boyer> Based on an action item, I've now added http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_First_Edition_Errata#Erratum_7:_Statement_of_Conformance_to_Informative_Schema
15:15:51 <klotz> http://www.mail-archive.com/wikibugs-l@lists.wikimedia.org/msg39858.html
15:27:03 <klotz> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_1.1_in_Wiki#Core_Form_Controls
15:27:05 <ebruchez> ebruchez has joined #forms
15:28:00 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:28:25 <ebruchez> zakim, [IPcaller is ebruchez
15:28:25 <Zakim> +ebruchez; got it
15:44:46 <Steven> Topic: UI Events
15:44:51 <Steven> rrsagent, make minutes
15:44:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-forms-minutes.html Steven
15:45:06 <Steven> Present+Eric
15:46:56 <Steven> Steven: Where did we get to?
15:47:12 <Steven> John: We need to separate relevance and visibility
15:47:56 <Steven> ... relevance has been used to hide controls, and to describe non-selected cases in a switch
15:48:36 <Steven> ... and to describe what happens when binding to a non-existent node
15:48:54 <Steven> ... Eric needs a control-lifestyle
15:49:02 <Steven> s/style/cycle/
15:49:59 <Steven> Eric: Well XForms needs it.
15:50:07 <John_Boyer> s/needs/is trying to define
15:50:11 <Steven> ... and there are use cases for it
15:50:37 <Steven> ... So any ideas on how to disentangle this?
15:50:58 <Steven> ... our proposal was not informed based on the last FtFs
15:51:37 <Steven> ... so what is the additional notion needed to break out of this impasse
15:51:46 <Steven> s/passe/passe?/
15:51:55 <Steven> John: Thinking of <switch>
15:52:13 <Steven> ... we say "non-selected behaves as non-relevant"
15:52:15 <Peter`> Peter` has joined #forms
15:52:49 <Steven> Steven: Maybe we should move away from short cuts like that
15:53:52 <Steven> John: For <group> you can style a non-relevant group as greyed out, but present, which doesn't happen with <switch>
15:54:29 <Steven> Eric: And what happens to events is unclear too
15:54:37 <Steven> ... <switch> is a good example
15:54:56 <Steven> ... you want hidden cases alive but non-visible
15:55:36 <Steven> ... if something is non-relevant then handlers are not active
15:56:24 <Steven> ... both scenarios have a good rationale
15:57:07 <Steven> ... but you don't have a way of controlling which of the two are used
15:58:28 <Steven> John: The more reliable the UI events become, the more likely we are to want to use them on controls in non-selected cases
15:59:44 <Steven> ... wizard-like cases, the user has gone through 3 of 5 steps, and they do something that invalidates an earlier step. Then there would be no invalid event that went to that control, so you can't listen to it.
16:00:47 <unl> zakim, unmute me
16:00:47 <Zakim> unl should no longer be muted
16:01:33 <Steven> Steven: Doesn't that mean that the step 3 control should show up the invalidation, not step 1.
16:01:38 <Steven> s/./>/
16:01:43 <Steven> s/>/?/
16:03:01 <Steven> Leigh: It cold be done with nonrelevant events that bubble up
16:03:47 <Steven> Eric: We need a general solution for groups as well as cases
16:04:08 <John_Boyer> First, yes ideal world, but people create a lot of UIs that are not ideal.  Also, people try to reuse the UI for "updates".  So, they've already done the 5 step process, but now reenter the UI at step 3 and make a change where we need to tell them that they need to make a second change to step 5 in order to submit the update.
16:04:42 <Steven> I've never met a widard interface that you enter in the middle. Tabbed interfaces yes, but not wizards
16:04:49 <Steven> s/widard/wizard/
16:05:04 <Steven> s/I've/Steven: I've/
16:05:42 <John_Boyer> Yes, the "wizard" interfaces do often have tabs attached to them too so that people can have the option to go to any step they want or just follow the next next next process if that's what they want
16:07:50 <Steven> q+
16:08:17 <Steven> Eric: Relevance is not clear, is it the same as visibity
16:11:30 <Steven> Steven: I think that visibility is a part of presentation, like being able to style negative numbers red
16:12:04 <Steven> ... relevance can influence visibility, but that doesn't mean that visibility is the same as relevance
16:12:22 <Steven> Leigh: I think we need both sorts
16:12:48 <unl> nice article about hidden in html5: http://realtech.burningbird.net/web/html5/remove-hidden-attribute
16:17:34 <Zakim> -unl
16:24:25 <Steven> [Discussion of whether visibility is presentation or not]
16:28:14 <John_Boyer> <bind nodeset> <property name="x" value="y"/>
16:32:52 <Steven> Leigh: Wee ned to fill in the exist/styling matrix
16:32:58 <Steven> s/Wee/We/
16:33:02 <Steven> s/ned/need/
16:33:35 <klotz> 1. form control exists or not
16:33:52 <klotz> 2. form control is presented
16:33:55 <klotz> 3. form control gets events
16:35:49 <markbirbeck_> markbirbeck_ has joined #forms
16:38:44 <klotz> i think column 1 is redundant
16:39:32 <John_Boyer> "column"1 is facet 1; these aren't "columns" so much as orthogonal facets
16:39:39 <klotz> right
16:39:54 <John_Boyer> not exist == not presented && not receiving events
16:40:43 <Steven> yes, but it is possible to have exist&not presented&not events
16:40:56 <John_Boyer> exist == not presented && receiving events || presented && not receiving events || presented && receiving events
16:41:55 <John_Boyer> Steven, yes this is what I tried to say that something could exist, e.g. is traversable to in a DOM, without being presented nor receiving events, but Leigh responded that it was not an independent facet *within* XForms
16:42:24 <Steven> Right, implementation decision
16:46:30 <klotz> so I think presented/not and evented/not are independent and should be author-controllable in various situations, and we should examine that choice for a new MIP, for switch/case, for a predicate-like per-control option, and for controls not bound to nodes.
16:51:33 <Steven> Leigh: Then we can define what switch means in terms of these aspects
16:51:52 <Steven> ... and we have a lot to discuss with respect to repeat
16:52:52 <John_Boyer> In current spec, I believe we uniformly chose that non-relevant is (presented && not receiving events) and relevant is (presented && receiving events), where "presented" means stylable, and the default styling of non-relevant happens to be invisible (or perhaps display none)
16:53:49 <John_Boyer> so the missing bits are (not presented and receiving events) and (not presented and not receiving events)
16:54:16 <John_Boyer> (not presented and receiving events) is the part about non-selected cases of switches still receiving events
16:54:41 <John_Boyer> (not presented and not receiving events) is the non-existence needed for the UI control lifecycle
16:58:26 <Steven> Leigh: So we should try and see if we can do this with a MIP and one or two form control attributes
16:58:50 <Steven> ... and pick something that works
16:59:15 <John_Boyer> the 1.1 spec's non-relevant, i.e. presented and not receiving events, allows styling as non-visible, non-displayed, or displayed disabled
16:59:15 <Steven> [ADJOURN]
16:59:19 <Zakim> -ebruchez
16:59:20 <Zakim> -Leigh_Klotz
16:59:23 <Zakim> -John_Boyer
16:59:29 <Zakim> -Roseraie_2
16:59:30 <Zakim> Team_(forms)12:33Z has ended
16:59:32 <Zakim> Attendees were Roseraie_2, Leigh_Klotz, John_Boyer, unl, [IPcaller], ebruchez
16:59:36 <John_Boyer> rrsagent, make minutes
16:59:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/11/02-forms-minutes.html John_Boyer
18:41:11 <Zakim> Zakim has left #forms
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