13:57:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
13:57:07 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-aapi-irc
13:57:12 <Andi> rrsagent, off
14:04:49 <Andi> topic: Events and Actions
14:04:55 <Andi> CS: talked to Larry
14:05:03 <davidb> passcode is 2274?
14:05:11 <Andi> CS: DOM Level3 Events is better way to go
14:05:11 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
14:05:33 <Andi> zakim, [Mozilla] is David_Bolter
14:05:33 <Zakim> +David_Bolter; got it
14:05:48 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
14:06:36 <Zakim> +[Mozilla]
14:06:51 <Andi> zakim, [Mozilla] is David_Bolter
14:06:51 <Zakim> +David_Bolter; got it
14:07:24 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
14:07:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:08:34 <Andi> CS: DOM Level3 events are not specific to accessibility
14:08:34 <Andi> zakim, [IPcaller] is David_Bolter
14:08:34 <Zakim> +David_Bolter; got it
14:08:34 <Andi> CS: proposal seems to be gaining wide acceptance
14:08:42 <Andi> CS: better approach than adding to ARIA
14:09:09 <Andi> CS: rather than have event section in ARIA UAIG, should have accessibility API in the DOM Level3 spec
14:09:37 <Andi> CS: Cut event section from ARIA UAIG
14:10:40 <Andi> DB: suppose a checkbox goes from checked to unchecked, the state changed event doesn't seem to be covered in James' document
14:12:23 <Andi> CS: Section on events that each role should support is the one that should be removed
14:12:37 <Andi> DB: still need the section on State and Property Changes
14:13:49 <Andi> CS: DOM Level3 events ties the events to something else that developers want to do - seems like a better way to go
14:13:49 <Andi> DB: agree
14:13:49 <Andi> CS: Other discussion was about actions
14:13:56 <Andi> CS: Rich and I have had a lot of discussions about adding something like UI patterns to WAI-ARIA
14:15:56 <Andi> CS: UIA is a different approach - more of a "has a" approach than a "is a" approach
14:15:56 <Andi> CS: have a lot more UI things that are not exactly a menu or button or whatever
14:16:56 <Andi> CS: patterns are "invoke", "toggle", etc. - can combine them
14:16:56 <Andi> CS: AIA owns the UIA spec now. Rich participates. Good way to get into it.
14:18:02 <Andi> CS: rather than saying what MSAA default action every role should support, makes more sense to invest in a future pattern approach
14:19:05 <Andi> CS: want to close these two bugs and pursue pattern based approach for ARIA 2.0
14:19:19 <Andi> CS: ATs must be simulating clicks now and it seems to work
14:19:37 <Andi> DB: based on the role, we expose actions, provide action name if the AT requests it
14:19:50 <Andi> DB: DoDefault action sometimes simulates a mouse click
14:19:52 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
14:21:21 <Andi> AS: table in 4.7 Actions that lists the default action for ARIA roles that have actions
14:21:27 <Andi> AS: Event column is blank
14:21:34 <Andi> CS: remove the Event column
14:22:14 <Andi> DB: Can leave the implementation to the browser
14:23:11 <Andi> action: Cynthia to talk to Rich & Janina about a pattern based approach for ARIA 2.0 and will open the action item when appropriate.
14:24:24 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
14:24:58 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow_Weaver
14:25:50 <Andi> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=ARIA
14:25:55 <Andi> topic: bugs
14:25:55 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
14:26:27 <Andi> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/buglist.cgi?product=ARIA
14:31:17 <Andi> bug 7223
14:31:36 <Andi> add text to role table for "link"
14:31:49 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
14:31:53 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
14:32:21 <Zakim> +??P0
14:32:38 <Andi> zakim, ??P0 is David_Bolter
14:32:38 <Zakim> +David_Bolter; got it
14:34:11 <Andi> bug 7634
14:34:18 <Andi> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-wai-aria-implementation-20100916/#mapping_additional_nd
14:37:01 <Andi> Cynthia checks to see what IE does
14:38:11 <Andi> bug 9656
14:38:25 <Andi> this is related to the aria-hidden issue
14:39:16 <Andi> DB: case where somebody is pointing to a label but the label is hidden
14:39:24 <Andi> DB: don't really understand the author use case
14:39:39 <Andi> DB: need to understand what this is critical for
14:40:04 <Andi> DB: maybe this is the case where you want text that is hidden except for screen readers
14:40:19 <Andi> AS: isn't aria-label for that?
14:40:36 <Andi> DB: maybe need to grab the element using Ajax, translated version, don't want to hard code the string?
14:41:47 <Andi> DB: need test cases for aria-hidden to see what the browsers are doing
14:41:59 <Andi> DB: get explanations on why a certain way is better
14:42:15 <Andi> DB: think this is the one that James felt pretty strongly about
14:42:40 <Andi> DB: Webkit will grab the text and include it in the text alternative calculation
14:45:22 <Andi> action: Cynthia to test what IE does for bug 7634
14:45:22 <Andi> action: Andi to draft text for 7223
14:46:58 <Andi> http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-wai-aria-implementation-20100916/#mapping_actions
14:49:34 <Andi> action: Cynthia to look at 7115
14:50:29 <Andi> DB: what does "cause actions to be associated with them" mean?
14:51:00 <Andi> CS: maybe we can get rid of this table because we want to pursue a pattern based approach for ARIA 2.0
14:51:15 <Andi> DB: think this kind of table might be more useful in a best practices guide
14:51:28 <Andi> CS: delete the table
14:51:53 <Andi> action: Andi to delete the table and close bug 7115
14:55:49 <Andi> CS and DB agree that changing the DOM because of ARIA is not the right approach
14:56:48 <Zakim> -David_Bolter
14:56:50 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
14:56:54 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelley
14:56:55 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
14:56:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-aapi-minutes.html Andi
14:56:56 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)10:00AM has ended
14:56:57 <Zakim> Attendees were Andi_Snow_Weaver, Cynthia_Shelley, David_Bolter, Tim_Boland
14:58:12 <Andi> chair: Cynthia
14:58:38 <Andi> s/passcode is 2274?//
14:58:43 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
14:58:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-aapi-minutes.html Andi
15:03:14 <Andi> action: Andi to delete the Events column from the table of ARIA roles that have actions associated with them in section 4.7 Actions
15:03:14 <Andi> rrsagent, make minutes
15:03:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-aapi-minutes.html Andi
15:38:59 <Andi> zakim, bye
15:38:59 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
15:38:59 <Andi> rrsagent, bye
15:38:59 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-aapi-actions.rdf :
15:38:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cynthia to talk to Rich & Janina about a pattern based approach for ARIA 2.0 and will open the action item when appropriate. [1]
15:38:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-aapi-irc#T14-23-11
15:38:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cynthia to test what IE does for bug 7634 [2]
15:38:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-aapi-irc#T14-45-22
15:38:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Andi to draft text for 7223 [3]
15:38:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-aapi-irc#T14-45-22-1
15:38:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cynthia to look at 7115 [4]
15:38:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-aapi-irc#T14-49-34
15:38:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Andi to delete the table and close bug 7115 [5]
15:38:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-aapi-irc#T14-51-53
15:38:59 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Andi to delete the Events column from the table of ARIA roles that have actions associated with them in section 4.7 Actions [6]
15:38:59 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/28-aapi-irc#T15-03-14