15:52:51 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #rdb2rdf
15:52:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-rdb2rdf-irc
15:52:53 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:52:53 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #rdb2rdf
15:52:55 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 7322733
15:52:55 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 8 minutes
15:52:56 <trackbot> Meeting: RDB2RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:52:56 <trackbot> Date: 26 October 2010
15:53:02 <mhausenblas> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdb2rdf-wg/2010Oct/0075.html
15:53:05 <mhausenblas> Chair: Michael
15:53:10 <mhausenblas> scribenick: juansequeda 
15:57:09 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
15:57:09 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
15:57:14 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:57:32 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has now started
15:57:38 <Zakim> +boris
15:57:43 <boris> boris has joined #rdb2rdf
15:58:12 <Zakim> +mhausenblas
15:59:23 <Zakim> +juansequeda
16:00:13 <Ashok> Ashok has joined #rdb2rdf
16:01:31 <Souri> Souri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:01:44 <soeren> soeren has joined #RDB2RDF
16:02:00 <juansequeda> https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1e9rnIW5vos1mtxBtD4M06APi3uE0pTvX-fQeUjl-NzY
16:02:02 <Zakim> +Souri
16:02:03 <Zakim> +MacTed
16:02:16 <Zakim> +Ashok_Malhotra
16:02:17 <juansequeda> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directGraph/
16:02:18 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:02:18 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:02:57 <juansequeda> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directGraph/alt
16:03:06 <Zakim> + +49.322.222.0.aaaa
16:03:09 <Zakim> - +49.322.222.0.aaaa
16:03:16 <soeren> zakim, aaaa is soeren
16:03:16 <Zakim> sorry, soeren, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:03:24 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aaaa is soeren 
16:03:24 <Zakim> sorry, mhausenblas, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:03:37 <soeren> >	Zakim, +aaaa is soeren
16:04:43 <Zakim> + +49.322.222.0.aabb
16:04:52 <mhausenblas> Zakim, aabb is soeren 
16:04:52 <Zakim> +soeren; got it
16:05:04 <juansequeda> Zakim, mute me
16:05:04 <Zakim> juansequeda should now be muted
16:05:06 <Souri> The document is still not ready for publishing, but we can finish it by tonight. For one thing, we need a slightly altered set of diagrams (due to introduction of a new property: rr:propertyColumn yesterday and some more change we will do in the next hour or so in the list of properties. (If we get Boris's help, that will be very good.)
16:05:22 <juansequeda> Topic: Admin
16:05:29 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: Accept the minutes of last meeting, see http://www.w3.org/2010/10/19-rdb2rdf-minutes.html
16:05:32 <Seema> Seema has joined #rdb2rdf
16:05:36 <juansequeda> +1
16:05:37 <soeren> +1
16:05:52 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/actions/open
16:05:53 <cygri> cygri has joined #rdb2rdf
16:05:56 <juansequeda> RESOLUTION: WG has accepted minutes of last meeting
16:06:13 <Zakim> +Seema
16:06:19 <juansequeda> Reminder, next week, Nov 2, there is no telcon
16:06:42 <juansequeda> TOPIC: FPWD R2RML
16:06:52 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/
16:07:00 <mhausenblas> $Id: Overview.html,v 1.18 2010/10/25 18:28:06 sdas2 Exp $
16:07:20 <juansequeda> souri: noticed a few things. we introduced a new property. the diagram doesnt have the new property
16:07:24 <juansequeda> ... this needs to be updated
16:07:44 <juansequeda> ... and to make things more understandable, we need to change the name of some properties, given soeren's comments
16:07:51 <juansequeda> ... we can finish by tonight
16:08:12 <juansequeda> ... if boris can help us with the diagrams today, then we can have this out today
16:08:21 <juansequeda> boris: yes I can help with the diagrams
16:09:00 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: the editorial notes @@ should be removed or have the correct editorial notes
16:09:18 <juansequeda> zakim, unmute me
16:09:18 <Zakim> juansequeda should no longer be muted
16:10:03 <Souri> I prefer "default mapping"
16:10:27 <Marcelo> Marcelo has joined #rdb2rdf
16:10:38 <juansequeda> soeren: i think direct mapping and default mapping are different
16:10:43 <ericP> Zakim, please dial ericP-office
16:10:43 <Zakim> ok, ericP; the call is being made
16:10:45 <Zakim> +EricP
16:10:56 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
16:10:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:10:58 <juansequeda> ... we don't need to solve this for the FPWD
16:11:04 <juansequeda> ... but we should discuss this
16:11:15 <Zakim> +Marcelo
16:11:36 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: if we use default mapping in the R2RML document, what do we do with the Direct Mapping document 
16:11:55 <juansequeda> ashok: what is the difference between direct and default mapping
16:12:02 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: I see it as the same
16:12:12 <Zakim> +Alexandre
16:12:20 <juansequeda> ... what does ericP think?
16:12:30 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:12:30 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:12:36 <MacTed> q+
16:13:08 <juansequeda> ericP: I prefer calling it a direct mapping because it is the default configuration 
16:13:16 <betehess> +1 to Eric's explanation about Direct vs Default
16:13:45 <mhausenblas> q?
16:13:54 <mhausenblas> ack MacTed 
16:14:17 <juansequeda> MacTed: i agree with the relationship of direct and default, but I prefer the use of default
16:14:50 <juansequeda> juansequeda: the default mapping is the direct mapping
16:14:56 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: we came up with these turns
16:15:09 <juansequeda> ericP: default came from inside
16:15:58 <ericP> sorry, i misspoke: "direct" came from outside
16:16:20 <juansequeda> marcelo: I don't see the term "direct mapping" used
16:16:21 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directGraph/
16:16:27 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/defaultGraph/
16:16:36 <mhausenblas> "A Default Mapping of Relational Data to RDF"
16:17:07 <hhalpin> hhalpin has joined #rdb2rdf
16:17:15 <betehess> q+
16:17:24 <juansequeda> ericP: can I check before changing
16:17:31 <mhausenblas> ack betehess 
16:17:35 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
16:17:35 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
16:18:12 <Zakim> +??P8
16:18:27 <betehess> Zakim, ??P8 is hhalpin 
16:18:27 <Zakim> +hhalpin; got it
16:18:59 <mhausenblas> Zakim, ??P8
16:18:59 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P8', mhausenblas
16:19:06 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: in the introduction, we call the document "Direct Mapping..." but if we use in the document "default mapping", people will be confused
16:19:13 <mhausenblas> Zakim, who's here?
16:19:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see boris, mhausenblas, juansequeda, MacTed (muted), Souri, Ashok_Malhotra, soeren, Seema, EricP, Marcelo, Alexandre, hhalpin
16:19:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see hhalpin, Marcelo, cygri, Seema, soeren, Souri, Ashok, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, LeeF, MacTed, mhausenblas, betehess, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
16:19:15 <hhalpin> Zakim, mute me 
16:19:16 <Zakim> hhalpin should now be muted
16:19:32 <juansequeda> ... that is why I propose to change the document to "Default Mapping of Relational Data to RDF"
16:20:19 <juansequeda> ericP: I wanted to check with the people who have been referring it to direct mapping before
16:20:31 <betehess> q+ to give my understand of direct vs default
16:20:49 <juansequeda> ... sandro, and somebody from lily use the term direct
16:21:15 <juansequeda> ... The R2RML uses a default mapping that is the direct
16:21:25 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me
16:21:25 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted
16:21:30 <mhausenblas> q?
16:21:32 <hhalpin> q+
16:22:15 <juansequeda> cygri: we need to make a decision what to write in the R2RML doc. Even if we call the doc "Default Mapping..." we can still make a distinction in that doc between default and direct
16:22:27 <MacTed> q+ again...
16:22:33 <MacTed> q- again...
16:22:37 <mhausenblas> ack betehess
16:22:37 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to give my understand of direct vs default
16:22:38 <MacTed> q+
16:23:00 <juansequeda> betehess: for me it is fine to say that the default mapping is the direct mapping
16:23:07 <juansequeda> ... this is a deeper conversation
16:23:34 <juansequeda> ... the direct mapping is a wrapper
16:23:41 <mhausenblas> q?
16:23:46 <juansequeda> ... and a standalone specification
16:23:52 <mhausenblas> ack hhalpin 
16:23:57 <hhalpin> Zakim, unmute me
16:23:57 <Zakim> hhalpin was not muted, hhalpin
16:24:16 <juansequeda> hhalpin: wondering if ericP wanted to keep the term Direct Mapping?
16:24:30 <mhausenblas> q?
16:24:56 <Zakim> +nunolopes
16:25:00 <hhalpin> Zakim, mute me
16:25:00 <Zakim> hhalpin should now be muted
16:25:10 <nunolopes> nunolopes has joined #RDB2RDF
16:25:13 <juansequeda> ashok: would like to publish with the default mapping name
16:25:26 <nunolopes> Zakim, who is here?
16:25:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see boris, mhausenblas, juansequeda, MacTed, Souri, Ashok_Malhotra, soeren, Seema, EricP, Marcelo, Alexandre, hhalpin (muted), nunolopes
16:25:29 <Zakim> On IRC I see nunolopes, hhalpin, Marcelo, cygri, Seema, soeren, Souri, Ashok, boris, Zakim, RRSAgent, juansequeda, LeeF, MacTed, mhausenblas, betehess, iv_an_ru, trackbot, ericP
16:25:29 <juansequeda> MacTed: the distinction is between a direct map and a non-direct map
16:25:36 <mhausenblas> ack MacTed 
16:25:57 <juansequeda> ashok: if you do not have any customization, then you want the default mapping 
16:25:58 <betehess> the real question is: do we want the Direct/Default Mapping to be defined in terms of R2RML? I don't think so, hence Direct Mapping
16:26:06 <juansequeda> Macted: which is then the direct map
16:26:18 <nunolopes> Zakim, mute me
16:26:18 <Zakim> nunolopes should now be muted
16:27:21 <juansequeda> soeren: make a poll
16:28:05 <betehess> q+
16:28:12 <juansequeda> Macted: is there a case where a default can be something different than a direct
16:28:23 <mhausenblas> ack betehess 
16:29:03 <juansequeda> betehess: is the direct mapping able to be defined in its own spec, or is it defined with R2RML ?
16:29:17 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: call it default mapping
16:29:17 <MacTed> +1
16:29:20 <juansequeda> ... if there is no dependency, then it is a simple wrapper
16:29:37 <MacTed> -1
16:29:46 <Souri> +1
16:29:47 <MacTed> simple wrapper = direct mapping = that's the name
16:29:55 <MacTed> "default" defines behavior
16:30:10 <Zakim> -soeren
16:30:28 <juansequeda> cygri: there is a problem with the term direct mapping. it implies that somehow the direct mapping is special.
16:30:32 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: call http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directGraph/ default mapping in both title and URI (but keep the possibility to talk about a direct mapping there)
16:30:38 <juansequeda> ... what eric has written is one way
16:30:45 <mhausenblas> q?
16:30:48 <juansequeda> ... how do you create uris?
16:30:53 <juansequeda> ... what to do with FK
16:30:58 <juansequeda> ... the specs will make decision 
16:30:59 <Zakim> +soeren
16:31:08 <juansequeda> ... but it is not the case that there is only one correct to do it
16:31:45 <ericP> s/direct mapping/arbitrary mapping #218/G
16:31:56 <Souri> +1 for Richard's comments
16:31:57 <betehess> I see a very deep mis-understanding in what is the Direct Mapping. I'm really afraid of this....
16:32:24 <hhalpin> Can you type that in?
16:32:32 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: call http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directGraph/ default mapping in both title and URI (but keep the possibility to talk about a direct mapping there)
16:32:37 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: lets change to default mapping, and if there is a discussion on direct vs default, having it in the other doc
16:32:44 <cygri> +1
16:32:49 <Seema> +1
16:32:52 <Souri> +1
16:32:56 <boris> +1
16:32:56 <juansequeda> +1
16:32:58 <soeren> +1
16:33:01 <Ashok> +1
16:33:02 <Marcelo> +1
16:33:04 <MacTed> abstain.
16:33:08 <betehess> -1
16:33:11 <ericP> -¾
16:33:19 <hhalpin> abstain
16:34:17 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: I understand eric's objection, but I don't understand alex's objection
16:34:34 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/defaultMapping
16:34:45 <mhausenblas> "A Default Mapping of Relational Data to RDF"
16:35:15 <cygri> +1 to juansequeda
16:36:34 <MacTed> exactly.
16:36:49 <MacTed> I don't see it as just about the name.
16:37:05 <hhalpin> q+
16:37:19 <juansequeda> betehess
16:37:37 <mhausenblas> ack hhalpin 
16:38:52 <juansequeda> hhalpin is proposing what mhausenblas already proposed
16:39:17 <juansequeda> macted: default is a behaviour and not a definition
16:39:24 <juansequeda> ... the default behavior can change
16:39:59 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: we should open an issue and let the semantics sub group come up with the direct mapping definition
16:40:17 <betehess> my understanding: Direct Mapping is a simple wrapper for RDB in RDF. I was expecting the WG to discuss about which features would be interesting to have in a Direct Mapping, as a definition. The Default Mapping is somehow defined in terms of r2rml.
16:41:20 <mhausenblas> ACTION: Hausenblas to create an issue for the default vs. direct mapping
16:41:21 <trackbot> Created ACTION-77 - Create an issue for the default vs. direct mapping [on Michael Hausenblas - due 2010-11-02].
16:42:25 <juansequeda> RESOLUTION: call http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/directGraph/ default mapping in both title and URI (but keep the possibility to talk about a direct mapping there)
16:43:25 <betehess> q+ to answer about the publication details
16:43:35 <juansequeda> hhalpin talking about publication details
16:43:52 <hhalpin> its 4 days to be courteous :)
16:44:02 <mhausenblas> Michael: we note the three objections (Eric, Alexandre and Ted) regarding the resolution
16:44:03 <hhalpin> so this is already not very courteous
16:44:13 <hhalpin> but I think the Systems Team understands :)
16:44:28 <juansequeda> betehess is talking about publication details
16:44:46 <betehess> http://www.w3.org/2002/01/tr-automation/techs.rdf
16:45:10 <hhalpin> I thought the short-name agreement was /TR/r2rml
16:46:19 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes 
16:46:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
16:46:21 <betehess> the Webmaster needs: the group(s) this spec belongs to. Please see: http://www.w3.org/2002/01/tr-automation/techs.rdf
16:46:33 <hhalpin> q+
16:46:39 <betehess> the Webmaster also needs a short description
16:47:06 <mhausenblas> ack hhalpin 
16:47:27 <betehess> q-
16:48:08 <juansequeda> hhalpin: can eric actually change the uri and agrees?
16:48:08 <betehess> q+
16:48:34 <betehess> q+ to speak about dependencies
16:48:41 <juansequeda> cygri: the R2RML uses default mapping everything. the only place that direct mapping is used is in the title of the doc and the uri
16:48:53 <mhausenblas> ack betehess 
16:48:53 <Zakim> betehess, you wanted to speak about dependencies
16:48:59 <juansequeda> mhausenblas: question that hhalpin has is if eric has the time and willing to do that
16:50:27 <hhalpin> Could we just copy an "English" version of Eric's document into the R2RML? Is that necessary
16:51:05 <juansequeda> betehess: there might be the case that we will have to remove the reference to the Direct Mapping document. I
16:51:16 <juansequeda> .. I'm not sure but this can be the case
16:51:29 <juansequeda> cygri: is this for normative or informative reference?
16:51:39 <juansequeda> ... does it make a difference?
16:51:46 <juansequeda> betehess: I'm not sure. I need to ask
16:55:17 <Souri> I still do not think it is that incomprehensible without the default-mapping doc!
16:56:09 <Ashok> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/Overview.html 
16:56:11 <juansequeda> macted: we have had external views stating that they don't understand R2RML doc without the default mapping
16:57:10 <Zakim> -soeren
16:57:40 <ericP> will people understand r2rml FPWD without the direct mapping text?
16:57:51 <Souri> Have we really checked its readability with a real database person (as opposed to logicians), who is really a target audience?
16:58:03 <mhausenblas> A related specification is A Direct Mapping of Relational Data to RDF [DIRECT]. It defines a fixed “default mapping”. In the default mapping of a database, The structure of the resulting RDF graph directly reflects the structure of the database, the target RDF vocabulary directly reflects the names of database schema elements, and neither structure nor target vocabulary can be changed. With R2RML on the other hand, a mapping author can define high
16:58:03 <mhausenblas> customized views over the relational data.
16:58:52 <cygri> replace first two sentces with: “This WG will define a fixed “default mapping” from a database to RDF.”
16:59:05 <Souri> People in some Oracle groups understand the R2RML doc perfectly and thinks its too easy!
16:59:33 <MacTed> "too easy" is not a valid objection to anything.
16:59:43 <Zakim> -Alexandre
17:00:10 <mhausenblas> PROPOSAL: replace the second paragraph, first two sentences of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/ “This WG will define a fixed “default mapping” from a database to RDF" and create and editorial note re discussion
17:00:13 <juansequeda> cygri and mhausenblas are talking about who to rephrase the default mapping section of the intro
17:00:32 <cygri> +1
17:00:40 <juansequeda> This new Proposal will make the previous proposal obsolete 
17:00:43 <juansequeda> +1
17:00:48 <Ashok> +1
17:00:52 <Marcelo> +1
17:00:57 <boris> +1
17:01:00 <hhalpin> abstain
17:01:06 <nunolopes> +1
17:01:08 <Souri> +1
17:01:09 <MacTed> +1
17:01:23 <Seema> +1
17:01:27 <ericP> i don't know who will understand this doc
17:01:51 <hhalpin> eric - is that an objection or an abstain?
17:02:00 <ericP> abstain
17:02:04 <hhalpin> I mean, I'm hoping we can link these two documents up.
17:02:15 <hhalpin> but if we can't do it in the FPWD we can do it when we agree things are baked. 
17:02:26 <juansequeda> RESOLUTION: replace the second paragraph, first two sentences of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/r2rml/ “This WG will define a fixed “default mapping” from a database to RDF" and create and editorial note re discussion
17:02:45 <juansequeda> no objections to this proposal. Only two abstains from ericP and hhalpin
17:02:49 <mhausenblas> RRSAgent, draft minutes
17:02:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-rdb2rdf-minutes.html mhausenblas
17:03:10 <Zakim> -Souri
17:03:11 <mhausenblas> [adjourned]
17:03:12 <Zakim> -Seema
17:03:13 <Zakim> -nunolopes
17:03:26 <Zakim> -Ashok_Malhotra
17:03:28 <Zakim> -mhausenblas
17:03:29 <Zakim> -MacTed
17:03:34 <Zakim> -Marcelo
17:03:35 <Zakim> -juansequeda
17:03:35 <Zakim> -EricP
17:04:07 <Zakim> -boris
17:05:07 <Zakim> -hhalpin
17:05:07 <Zakim> SW_RDB2RDF()12:00PM has ended
17:05:08 <Zakim> Attendees were boris, mhausenblas, juansequeda, Souri, MacTed, Ashok_Malhotra, +49.322.222.0.aaaa, +49.322.222.0.aabb, soeren, Seema, EricP, Marcelo, Alexandre, hhalpin, nunolopes
17:09:59 <mhausenblas> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/rdb2rdf/track/issues/5
17:26:32 <mhausenblas> trackbot, end telecon
17:26:32 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
17:26:32 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
17:26:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
17:26:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-rdb2rdf-minutes.html trackbot
17:26:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
17:26:34 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-rdb2rdf-actions.rdf :
17:26:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Hausenblas to create an issue for the default vs. direct mapping [1]
17:26:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/10/26-rdb2rdf-irc#T16-41-20