IRC log of html-a11y on 2010-10-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

22:00:01 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
22:00:01 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/20-html-a11y-irc
22:00:45 [janina]
zakim, this will be WAI_PFWG(A11Y)
22:00:45 [Zakim]
ok, janina, I see WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM already started
22:00:54 [Zakim]
+Judy
22:00:58 [janina]
zakim, call janina
22:00:58 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
22:00:59 [Zakim]
+Janina
22:01:14 [janina]
rrsagent, make log public
22:02:47 [janina]
Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
22:02:47 [janina]
Chair: John_Foliot
22:02:47 [janina]
agenda: this
22:02:47 [janina]
agenda+ Identify Scribe
22:02:48 [janina]
agenda+ Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open
22:02:50 [janina]
agenda+ Status Updates & Brief Reports; User Reqs; Added Spec Text; Open Subtitles; Etc.
22:02:52 [janina]
agenda+ Media Related Bugs--Status & Next Steps
22:02:54 [janina]
agenda+ Technical Requirements Prioritizations and Dependencies
22:02:56 [janina]
+http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Media_Accessibility_Checklist
22:02:58 [janina]
agenda+ WCAG Mapping -- Sean
22:03:00 [janina]
agenda+ Must/Should/May Categorizations -- John
22:03:02 [janina]
agenda+ Handling Multiple Tracks http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Oct/0520.html
22:03:04 [janina]
agenda+ Candidate Formats Review Preparation: WebSRT; TTML; Others?
22:03:06 [janina]
agenda+ Other Business?
22:03:08 [janina]
agenda+ next meeting
22:03:10 [janina]
agenda+ be done
22:03:12 [Zakim]
+silvia
22:03:19 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:03:19 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Identify Scribe" taken up [from janina]
22:03:27 [janina]
scribe: janina
22:03:39 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:03:39 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, janina
22:03:45 [janina]
zakim, close item 1
22:03:45 [Zakim]
agendum 1, Identify Scribe, closed
22:03:46 [Zakim]
I see 11 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
22:03:48 [Zakim]
2. Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open [from janina]
22:03:52 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:03:52 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open" taken up [from janina]
22:04:08 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
22:04:08 [Zakim]
On the phone I see danielR, Eric_Carlson, Judy, Janina, silvia
22:04:09 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, JF, silvia, MikeSmith, sideshow, trackbot
22:04:39 [janina]
zakim, danielR is John_Foliot
22:04:39 [Zakim]
+John_Foliot; got it
22:05:46 [janina]
Action 54 needs to be closed. Janina will do.
22:05:46 [trackbot]
Sorry, couldn't find user - 54
22:06:00 [silvia]
close ACTION-54
22:06:00 [trackbot]
ACTION-54 Follow up that NCAM files can be used in HTML5 testbed closed
22:06:14 [janina]
Also, close action 65.
22:06:27 [silvia]
close ACTION-65
22:06:27 [trackbot]
ACTION-65 Will review threads on getting spec text in closed
22:06:29 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:06:29 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Status Updates & Brief Reports; User Reqs; Added Spec Text; Open Subtitles; Etc." taken up [from janina]
22:06:56 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:06:56 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:07:05 [janina]
Did that help?
22:10:20 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:10:20 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:10:42 [janina]
silvia: between janina and me, we've covered things in user reqs and in email
22:10:55 [janina]
janina: also, user reqs will move under html chairs guidance to close soon
22:11:26 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:11:26 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:12:43 [janina]
janina: re spec text as we requested -- our request for tech neutrality not met
22:12:49 [janina]
eric: think we should file bugs
22:17:49 [janina]
Conversation proceeds with our concern that W3C not publish anything with technology specific solutions, especially not in a heartbeat.
22:18:50 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:18:50 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:18:59 [silvia]
q?
22:19:11 [silvia]
q+
22:20:24 [janina]
Janina will forward her mail to Paul to Judy. This was the mail that expressed concern about publishing with tech specific solutions.
22:20:35 [janina]
We're unclear what is included in heartbeat.
22:21:07 [janina]
Sam's message came to Janina and also to public-html. Janina forwarded it to public-a11y-html
22:21:44 [janina]
Judy will lead on anything we might still be able to do about publication.
22:22:00 [janina]
Silvia: Should we discuss changes on list?
22:22:02 [janina]
John: Yes
22:22:33 [janina]
Silvia: Very keen for input esp from Philip and Eric
22:24:50 [janina]
John: So, we're looking to make spec tech neutral? That's first?
22:25:08 [janina]
Janina I have an rcs of changes
22:25:11 [JF]
Silvia you are breaking up badly
22:25:31 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:25:31 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:25:58 [silvia]
my proposal is to start the discussion of what bugs we should report on the mailing list
22:26:02 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:26:02 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:26:18 [janina]
It was me
22:26:48 [janina]
Silvia: Proposes we discuss on list of the changes we want.
22:27:15 [janina]
Silvia: Still want to ref websrt as a baseline, though it needn't be the only implemented one, want to keep it in timeline though.
22:28:15 [janina]
John: Concern that websrt undefined in w3c space
22:28:27 [janina]
John: Had understood that we wanted to be fully agnostic
22:28:48 [janina]
Judy: Strong +1 on that
22:29:17 [janina]
Eric: Minor correction -- WebSRT is well spec'd at both w3c and what at this point
22:29:33 [janina]
judy: also unaware that it's spec'd in w3c space
22:29:49 [janina]
eric: parsing is precise as in the html spec
22:29:55 [Zakim]
-Eric_Carlson
22:30:16 [Zakim]
+Eric_Carlson
22:30:25 [janina]
judy: but this is a leap, if the group working on media hasn't agreed on it.
22:30:41 [Zakim]
-Janina
22:30:49 [janina]
zakim, call janina
22:30:49 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
22:30:51 [Zakim]
+Janina
22:31:23 [janina]
OK, I'm supposedly back, but I have no audio. Trying again ...
22:31:26 [janina]
zakim, drop janina
22:31:26 [Zakim]
Janina is being disconnected
22:31:28 [Zakim]
-Janina
22:31:38 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:31:38 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:31:40 [janina]
zakim, call janina
22:31:40 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
22:31:42 [Zakim]
+Janina
22:32:06 [janina]
Argh, still no audio!
22:32:09 [janina]
zakim, drop janina
22:32:09 [Zakim]
Janina is being disconnected
22:32:10 [Zakim]
-Janina
22:33:45 [janina]
Trying to dial in, but still have no audio!
22:33:52 [janina]
zakim, drop janina
22:33:52 [Zakim]
sorry, janina, I do not see a party named 'janina'
22:33:58 [janina]
zakim, call janina
22:33:58 [Zakim]
ok, janina; the call is being made
22:33:59 [Zakim]
+Janina
22:34:39 [janina]
I'm back ...
22:34:43 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:34:43 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:34:59 [janina]
John: Silvia, you wanted to see something from websrt remain, can it be made agnostic?
22:35:08 [janina]
Silvia: I think that's a misunderstanding
22:35:35 [janina]
Silvia: we need a baseline codec -- we need this for external text formats
22:36:25 [janina]
silvia: all browser discussion i've had in the pst months suggest that websrt, while it needs improvements, is not a bad format for baseline and lots of people are looking at implementing it.
22:36:39 [janina]
Silvia: it would be bad if it were the only format we're lookikng to implement
22:36:54 [janina]
Judy: But that's exactly the concern, we shouldn't implement something we haven't consensed
22:37:09 [janina]
Eric: agree we need a req for baseline, but the decision needs to come out of the broader wg
22:38:05 [janina]
eric: it's really important that browser vendors can start implementing now to identify issues, and that's orthogonal to what ends up being spec'd
22:38:44 [janina]
Judy: So, we need it to gain knwledge. Are we OK that it won't confuse people?
22:39:10 [janina]
eric: we should remove references from the spec, and the html-wg needs to decide as the wider group on what to use as a baseline
22:39:33 [janina]
silvia: you're right. i've changed me mind. I'm confusing trial implementations with what's in the spec
22:39:57 [janina]
john: if it's to be a spec we look at, it does need to be in w3c space
22:40:19 [janina]
eric: no issue with that
22:41:03 [janina]
silvia: propose we get websrt completely out of the w3c spec
22:41:22 [janina]
silvia: then a separate doc that proposes websrt, so we can discuss it fully independently of any other contender
22:41:36 [janina]
judy: can i ask for confirmation that we're all on the same page?
22:41:50 [janina]
judy: it sounds like we all want refs to websrt out
22:43:22 [silvia]
proposal: 1. remove all websrt reference from http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/ - probably needs bug reports; 2. evaluate http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/websrt.html independently as a possible baseline codec (not sure if 2. needs to go into W3C space for the evaluation to take place)
22:43:23 [janina]
janina: +1
22:43:36 [janina]
john: believe all of us on the call agree
22:45:01 [silvia]
s/codec/format/
22:45:38 [Judy]
Judy has joined #html-a11y
22:46:06 [janina]
eric: whatever we suggest should be clear that there should be no ref to a format, whether tdml or websrt, because there hasn't been a decision
22:46:18 [silvia]
s/tdml/ttml/
22:46:26 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:46:26 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:46:34 [janina]
eric: not sure it's important to move a description of websrt into w3c space at this point
22:46:41 [janina]
eric: what's important is to open a discussion
22:46:50 [silvia]
+1 on eric
22:47:18 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:47:18 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
22:47:24 [janina]
q?
22:47:44 [silvia]
ack
22:47:49 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:47:49 [Zakim]
I see a speaker queue remaining and respectfully decline to close this agendum, janina
22:47:58 [janina]
zakim, ack sil
22:47:58 [Zakim]
unmuting silvia
22:47:59 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
22:48:07 [janina]
zakim, next item
22:48:07 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Media Related Bugs--Status & Next Steps" taken up [from janina]
22:48:11 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:48:11 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:48:31 [janina]
john: I've filed several bugs, Ian pointed them all on me
22:48:40 [janina]
john: filed to make the filing deadline
22:50:18 [janina]
janina: the clear audio is a misunderstanding. clear audio is only created at production. the spec and user agents are not implicated
22:50:19 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, call Mike-goog
22:50:19 [Zakim]
ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
22:50:21 [Zakim]
+Mike
22:50:22 [janina]
eric: fully agree
22:51:05 [janina]
john: also a bug on pausing audio ...
22:51:30 [silvia]
zakim, unmute me
22:51:30 [Zakim]
silvia should no longer be muted
22:51:56 [janina]
Silvia: there's an identical bug -- so we have duplicated bug
22:51:58 [silvia]
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10941
22:52:05 [Zakim]
-Eric_Carlson
22:52:17 [janina]
Silvia: suggest closing the later as a duplicate of the former
22:52:39 [Zakim]
+Eric_Carlson
22:54:01 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
22:54:01 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
22:54:08 [janina]
john: allow user
22:54:26 [janina]
pausing the bugzilla discussion now that Mike has joined re heartbeat spec publication
22:54:59 [janina]
Judy: introducing our understanding that spec text now added but without neutralizing tech specific solutions
22:55:06 [janina]
judy: is it in the heartbeat?
22:56:13 [janina]
judy: It would be a significant problem for us if that is so, because it's not our consensed direction, and would have negative effects on our public veracity
22:56:26 [davidb]
davidb has joined #html-a11y
22:56:32 [MikeSmith]
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html
22:57:47 [silvia]
Thu Oct 14 22:31:55 2010 UTC (6 days ago) by ihickson <- when the change occurred
22:57:48 [janina]
Janina waves at Dave
22:58:13 [janina]
Judy: we very much want not to have tech specific solutions in the heartbeat
22:58:19 [silvia]
Revision http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html?rev=1.4510&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
22:58:42 [MikeSmith]
http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html?rev=1.4514&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
23:00:41 [janina]
I've lost audio!
23:00:41 [janina]
zakim, who's here?
23:00:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Foliot, Judy, Janina, silvia (muted), Mike, Eric_Carlson
23:00:43 [Zakim]
On IRC I see Judy, RRSAgent, Zakim, janina, JF, silvia, MikeSmith, sideshow, trackbot
23:00:48 [janina]
I'm back!
23:01:20 [janina]
Ah, must be packet loss here -- I'm gone again
23:01:39 [janina]
Mike: Not my decision, unfortunately. Need to contact chairs on this.
23:02:54 [silvia]
q+
23:03:02 [janina]
Judy: Are we willing to not have these media sections at all, if that means we cannot get tech neutral into this heartbeat?
23:03:05 [janina]
General ascent
23:03:21 [janina]
Judy: seems the reversion shouldn't delay publication?
23:03:40 [silvia]
q-
23:03:56 [janina]
Mike: They will insist that changes need discussion
23:04:09 [janina]
Judy: But it seems to us that a change has gone that didn't get discussion
23:05:13 [silvia]
q+
23:05:28 [silvia]
zakim, ack me
23:05:28 [Zakim]
unmuting silvia
23:05:29 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
23:08:06 [janina]
Silvia: noting that unrolling one day would do it
23:08:14 [janina]
Mike: that's possible
23:09:06 [silvia]
Revision http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/spec/Overview.html?rev=1.4509&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup
23:09:28 [janina]
Mike: So are we ok with 15409?
23:09:52 [janina]
judy: would there be unrelated changes that would be lost with surhc a revision? Or is it only our part?
23:10:06 [MikeSmith]
s/15409/1.4509/g
23:12:20 [silvia]
revision 1.4509 has no mention of WebSRT and is from Oct 14
23:14:48 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith: this was my mistake to begin with
23:14:49 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
23:14:49 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
23:15:22 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith: I should not have used the 1.4514 revision to begin with, should have rolled by to a previous rev
23:16:01 [MikeSmith]
MikeSmith: I will roll back to the Oct 12 state
23:19:44 [janina]
Mike: Actually rolling back to 14494 as it's the version that was prep'd following the decision to go heartbeat
23:21:36 [janina]
Thanks, Mike!
23:21:43 [janina]
John: returning to bugs
23:21:54 [janina]
John: also a bug to make alternate versions visible
23:22:25 [janina]
john: do we know it's in the spec?
23:22:27 [janina]
silence
23:22:30 [janina]
John: I'll check
23:30:01 [silvia]
q+
23:30:09 [silvia]
zakim, ack me
23:30:09 [Zakim]
unmuting silvia
23:30:10 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
23:32:15 [silvia]
zakim, mute me
23:32:15 [Zakim]
silvia should now be muted
23:33:39 [Zakim]
-John_Foliot
23:33:40 [MikeSmith]
cheers
23:33:40 [Zakim]
-Eric_Carlson
23:33:42 [Zakim]
-silvia
23:33:45 [Zakim]
-Janina
23:33:47 [Zakim]
-Judy
23:33:51 [MikeSmith]
Zakim, drop Mike
23:33:51 [Zakim]
Mike is being disconnected
23:33:53 [Zakim]
WAI_PFWG(A11Y)6:00PM has ended
23:33:54 [Zakim]
Attendees were Eric_Carlson, Judy, Janina, silvia, John_Foliot, Mike
23:49:45 [janina]
rrsagent, make minutes
23:49:45 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/20-html-a11y-minutes.html janina