IRC log of webapps on 2010-10-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:59:52 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #webapps
16:59:52 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/10/13-webapps-irc
16:59:54 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:59:56 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be DOM3
16:59:56 [Zakim]: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
16:59:57 [trackbot]: Meeting: Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
16:59:57 [trackbot]: Date: 13 October 2010
17:00:25 [MichaelC]: MichaelC has joined #webapps
17:01:01 [shepazu]: Zakim, code?
17:01:01 [Zakim]: the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), shepazu
17:01:10 [janina]: janina has joined #webapps
17:01:58 [Travis]: Travis has joined #webapps
17:01:59 [richardschwerdtfe]: richardschwerdtfe has joined #webapps
17:02:14 [shepazu]: Zakim, code?
17:02:14 [Zakim]: the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), shepazu
17:03:48 [Travis]: Having a bit of trouble calling in... hang tight.
17:04:01 [Travis]: OK.
17:05:24 [clown]: zakim, who is on the phone?
17:05:24 [Zakim]: I notice Team_(webapps)16:57Z has restarted
17:05:25 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Shepazu, Janina_Sajka, Gregory_Rosmaita, Michael_Cooper, Rich, [Microsoft], [IPcaller]
17:05:41 [clown]: zakim, IPcaller is Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:05:41 [Zakim]: +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
17:05:42 [Zakim]: +??P1
17:05:43 [oedipus]: monday's discussion on DI and DOM3 at PF call: http://www.w3.org/2010/10/11-pf-minutes.html
17:05:52 [clown]: zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:05:52 [Zakim]: ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:06:00 [smaug_]: Zakim, ??P1 is Olli_Pettay
17:06:00 [Zakim]: +Olli_Pettay; got it
17:06:02 [smaug_]: I think
17:06:14 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, call Mike-goog
17:06:14 [Zakim]: ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
17:06:16 [Zakim]: +Mike
17:07:12 [Zakim]: + +1.650.253.aaaa
17:07:32 [Zakim]: +Art_Barstow
17:07:42 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:07:42 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Shepazu, Janina_Sajka, Gregory_Rosmaita, Michael_Cooper, Rich, [Microsoft], Joseph_Scheuhammer, Olli_Pettay, Mike, +1.650.253.aaaa, Art_Barstow
17:08:01 [tonychang]: I'm 1.650.253.aaaa
17:08:21 [Travis]: Zakim, [Microsoft] is Travis
17:08:21 [Zakim]: +Travis; got it
17:08:39 [jrossi]: jrossi has joined #webapps
17:08:40 [tonychang]: Zakim 1.650.253.aaaa is tonychang
17:08:45 [tonychang]: err
17:08:49 [tonychang]: Zakim +1.650.253.aaaa is tonychang
17:08:52 [MikeSmith]: tonychang, you need a comma
17:09:00 [MikeSmith]: . Zakim,
17:09:05 [tonychang]: Zakim, +1.650.253.aaaa is tonychang
17:09:05 [Zakim]: +tonychang; got it
17:09:09 [tonychang]: MikeSmith: thanks
17:09:15 [MikeSmith]: cheers
17:09:38 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, call Mike
17:09:38 [Zakim]: ok, MikeSmith; the call is being made
17:09:40 [Zakim]: +Mike
17:09:47 [shepazu]: scribeNick: Jacob
17:09:51 [Zakim]: -Mike
17:10:08 [shepazu]: chair: shepazu
17:11:22 [MikeSmith]: "First Call" instead of "Last Call"…
17:11:29 [jrossi]: shepazu: This is the first Last Call....intended to be feature complete last call, not the document last call.
17:12:25 [jrossi]: shepazu: Apple proposal for UI events for ARIA.
17:12:37 [shepazu]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html
17:14:04 [jrossi]: shepazu: The UIRequestEvent, first interface (Sect. 2), the const list is not intended to be a set of constants that come up with that event. Rather, it's a set of events that use that interface. For ex, MouseEvent hase mousemove/mousedown/etc.
17:14:56 [richardschwerdtfe]: q?
17:15:06 [jrossi]: shepazu: I think this would be useful. Love to see it in D3E. So we could see an arrangment such that instead of a keyboard evt with key == Undo, we could see an actual Undo Event.
17:15:08 [richardschwerdtfe]: q+
17:15:21 [jrossi]: shepazu: the undo evt could happen before the keyboard event for the undo key
17:17:04 [jrossi]: Travis: Small concern: a series of high level semantic events (the fire as a result of intended meaning by end user, "the result of a particular default action"). Nowhere in D3E (w/ exception of click) do we have the concept of a meta-event. My concern is they dont really jive with the rest of the events which are currently spec'd in our draft (which are more low-level events tied to the likes of hardware actions, etc).
17:17:31 [jrossi]: Travis: Clearly value in these events. I just don't see that we just try to graft those into the spec with our current focus.
17:18:25 [jrossi]: shepazu: Planning on making a new WG (Touch Interface WG). The intent there is to manage touch interface, but also some higher level events too. Possibly renaming WG to something like Touch Interface and Abstract Events WG
17:18:51 [jrossi]: shepazu: So that is another possible venue for similar sorts of things.
17:20:00 [jrossi]: shepazu: related proposal by Google, around textInput event to change it to beforeInput and abstract it out to capture all sorts of changes to the document (undo, redo, etc). Not necessarily in semantic terms, but functionally.
17:20:45 [smaug_]: there is some background noise
17:22:32 [anne]: HTML5 defines undo/redo events
17:22:35 [jrossi]: richardschwerdtfe: Couple points: one thing that I wish we had better tools on mobile devices, but this is the one thing that's really prohibiting us from producing a good mobile device. Keyboards on mobile dont always map correctly. Higher level events would allow for manipulating better and allow us to be more accesible. I wish I had some of the events earlier on.
17:23:11 [jrossi]: Travis: To add on to that, w/ D3E today to make your app accesible you have to write your code directly to the input devices you have available (keyboard, mouse) and on some platforms touch.
17:23:49 [jrossi]: tonychang: From Google, details on beforeInput. I think UIRequestEvent is fine and will meet a lot of the simliar needs of beforeInput.
17:24:05 [jrossi]: tonychang: beforeInput was trying to be one evt you listen for that captures all possible inputs.
17:24:27 [jrossi]: tonychang: downside of UIRequestEvent is that you have to subscribe to a bunch of events (Undo/Redo/etc) to get all input
17:24:48 [shepazu]: ?
17:24:51 [shepazu]: q?
17:25:19 [jrossi]: travis: I think we have to be realisitic. Any spec that tries to define semantic evts is going to be incomplete. We need figure out what the key events that capture the main scenarios we have are.
17:26:28 [jrossi]: shepazu: wishes this approach had been taken 15 yrs ago. My concern is that this will take up a really long time (min, several months) to come to agreement. I think that conversation needs to happen. I am concerned that it happens in the scope of D3E.
17:27:04 [jrossi]: shepazu: I'd like to hear people's reaction to that. Excellent work, excellent ideas. We could have these higher events and we agree it would make it easier.
17:27:26 [jrossi]: shepazu: But I think we could agree that the conversation won't be settled in the next month and a half.
17:28:00 [jrossi]: Travis: It's been 10 years in the making (D3E). Let's get these things done. But I am sensitive to the accesibility needs to have these completed.
17:28:04 [tlr]: tlr has joined #webapps
17:28:30 [jrossi]: richardschwerdtfe: How would the module track for dom events work?
17:28:47 [smaug_]: jrossi: do you have microphone near keyboard?
17:28:55 [jrossi]: shepazu: It wouldn't be a D3E module. It would be some other spec that uses D3E. D3E underlies things like SVG, HTML5.
17:29:04 [jrossi]: yeah, muted the mic. better?
17:29:13 [smaug_]: better, thanks
17:29:25 [jrossi]: shepazu: It also goes into a few low level evts.
17:29:25 [smaug_]: er, no
17:29:39 [jrossi]: must be something else
17:30:04 [jrossi]: shepazu: Example, event propagation, contstruction of events, dispatching, etc. It's the architecture of events and a few particular events on top of that.
17:30:53 [jrossi]: shepazu: This new events spec would not talk about the architecture that D3E lays as a framework. It would simply define a set of interfaces and events, the order in which they're fired, etc. So just the evts themselves and not the mechanisms.
17:31:11 [jrossi]: shepazu: Logistically, we could start iterating on the spec to come to a conclusion while we're still working on D3E.
17:31:27 [jrossi]: shepazu: Probably be ready for first public WD before the 2nd D3E last call.
17:31:59 [jrossi]: shepazu: Key factor, unlike a lot of other specs, this has the interest of Google,Microsoft, other browser vendors.
17:32:18 [jrossi]: shepazu: with that, things could happen very quickly.
17:32:31 [jrossi]: richardschwerdtfe: Seems like a reasonable approach.
17:33:02 [jrossi]: shepazu: Does anyone have a problem with that approach?
17:33:48 [jrossi]: richardschwerdtfe: In line with what you're thinking, we could actually use all the ARIA spec and make it applicable for mobile.
17:33:57 [jrossi]: shepazu: Don't understand...
17:34:21 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-practices/
17:34:47 [jrossi]: richardschwerdtfe: We could take the define the relation between device input events and application control with accessibility in mind.
17:34:55 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria/
17:35:11 [jrossi]: shepazu: Topic interests me. Would be interested in being one of the editors; but probably not the only one.
17:35:41 [jrossi]: shepazu: I'm hearing general agreement that htis work is worthwhile.
17:35:55 [jrossi]: richardschwerdtfe: alignment with last call?
17:36:31 [jrossi]: shepazu: I think that's useful. Talk about this potential spec and have it's first public WD align with the real Last Call for D3E for gap analysis. Make sure D3E doesn't define something that hampers us latter.
17:36:50 [jrossi]: shepazu: I would expect 1st public WD sometime in Jan.
17:37:07 [jrossi]: shepazu: I think that's doable. Especially if we get Google and Apple togethre to talk about these things.
17:37:17 [smaug_]: background noise is getting even worse :(
17:37:19 [jrossi]: MichaelC: Which WG owns this?
17:37:48 [jrossi]: MichaelC: still a webapps thing? maybe somebody from PS? joint publication? How do we get all the right people at the table?
17:38:43 [jrossi]: shepazu: I think PF is needed. But also whoever else we need to have the right people here to find common ground.
17:38:54 [jrossi]: shepazu: I'd be happy to technically join the PF WG.
17:39:01 [JAllan]: JAllan has joined #webapps
17:39:15 [jrossi]: MichaelC: We're also going to use the D3E architecture as well, correct?
17:39:38 [jrossi]: shepazu: Yes, but most groups use D3E as a fundamental grounding for their events. That's just an assumption.
17:39:53 [jrossi]: shepazu: Some groups don't use dom events, but we're trying to bring them into the fold to.
17:39:55 [MikeSmith]: s/MichaelC/Rich/
17:40:35 [jrossi]: MichaelC: I wouldn't want this to have the flavor of an accesibility only spec.
17:40:48 [smaug_]: to get more input from browser implementors, webapps wg should be actively involved
17:40:48 [jrossi]: shepazu: Wouldn't want to slow this down by making it go through a new charter revision.
17:41:02 [jrossi]: shepazu: Wouldn't want to be in Touch WG because of IP issues.
17:41:12 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, Mike is me
17:41:12 [Zakim]: +MikeSmith; got it
17:41:22 [jrossi]: shepazu: But I agree if it were best if it weren't seen simply as accesibility.
17:41:26 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, mute me
17:41:26 [Zakim]: MikeSmith should now be muted
17:41:48 [jrossi]: richardschwerdtfe: In terms of PF charters, can we do this in PF?
17:42:13 [jrossi]: MichaelC: It's not chartered to do something like this. But we could charter this as an informal related thing. But we can deal with that offline.
17:43:38 [jrossi]: Resolution: We will deal with high level intentional events in a separate spec that builds on DOM3 Events.
17:44:14 [jrossi]: shepazu: Intend to do it in a timeframe that overlaps with the real last call of D3E.
17:45:00 [jrossi]: shepazu: Probably need to have some email about scroll request and wheel events.
17:45:47 [MikeSmith]: getting Chris Fleizach on a telcon might be worthwhile too
17:46:19 [jrossi]: shepazu: with regards to beforeInput and this directio we're taking, does it make sense to you that we would look at this in a larger scope?
17:46:37 [jrossi]: tonychang: yes, this seems fine to me. The end goal is the same. How we get there....I don't have a strong preference.
17:47:01 [Zakim]: -Gregory_Rosmaita
17:47:02 [janina]: janina has left #webapps
17:47:05 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
17:47:07 [Zakim]: -Joseph_Scheuhammer
17:47:08 [Zakim]: -Janina_Sajka
17:47:12 [Zakim]: -Rich
17:47:14 [clown]: clown has left #webapps
17:47:21 [Zakim]: -Art_Barstow
17:47:33 [jrossi]: shepazu: Let's talk about graphics. mouse getCoordsAt()
17:47:34 [shepazu]: Topic: MouseEvent.getCoordsAt
17:48:48 [tlr]: tlr has joined #webapps
17:48:56 [jrossi]: Travis: when you transform an element, most properties are relative to viewport.
17:49:01 [jrossi]: shepazu: (doesn't agree)
17:49:11 [jrossi]: Travis: the ones that aren't are the ones we want to talk about.
17:49:16 [jrossi]: shepazu: (sees the light)
17:49:50 [jrossi]: Travis: The offset are relative to the coordinates of the element. So what how should those be affected by transforms?
17:50:02 [jrossi]: Travis: Why on MouseEvents instead of just doc?
17:50:17 [jrossi]: Travis: Unles mouse event provides some sort of info that isn't intrinsically available.
17:50:22 [shepazu]: http://jwatt.org/svg/tmp/mouse-relative-positioning.svg
17:51:42 [jrossi]: jrossi: I don't think mouse events are the only place you deal with the issue of translating coordinates between different contexts (the viewport, transformed elements, etc)
17:51:59 [JAllan]: JAllan has left #webapps
17:52:13 [jrossi]: shepazu: Agreed. It's surprisingly difficult to do this in a way that's logical and makes sense. It's unintuitive even after much work on SVG.
17:52:28 [jrossi]: shepazu: I code SVG by hand and yet I don't remember this.
17:53:20 [jrossi]: shepazu: The key part is that you have to get clientX/clientY. Generally this comes from the mouse. But sometimes it's just some generic point.
17:53:36 [jrossi]: shepazu: should have been screenX/screenY but...
17:53:44 [jrossi]: Travis: one example: getClientBoundRect
17:54:50 [jrossi]: jrossi: needs to be abstracted from SVG.
17:55:17 [sicking]: sicking has joined #webapps
17:55:45 [jrossi]: shepazu: nothing SVG-specific, other than where concept of transforms originated. We can define in a way that you pass in a "point object" (regardless of type) or even the x and y and get back a point object.
17:56:36 [jrossi]: shepazu: not taking in a point would actually be nice. Could be seen as a point contructor....pass in x/y and returns point object.
17:56:50 [jrossi]: Travis: write it out like an API.....please?
17:57:33 [Travis]: document.getElementById('transformedElement').transformedX;
17:57:39 [Travis]: document.getElementById('transformedElement').transformedY;
17:57:41 [Travis]: ??
17:58:21 [smaug_]: This all should perhaps go to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/
17:58:22 [shepazu]: Point DocumentInterface.getGlobalCoords(x, y);
17:58:52 [jrossi]: Point getCoordsAt(x,y,element)
18:00:04 [Travis]: Element.transformedClientX;
18:00:16 [jrossi]: Travis: data is local to the element, right? It's the element that's transformed that's relative to. Why not put it on element itself?
18:00:43 [jrossi]: jrossi: like on on Element, if you had elm you could just say elm.getCoordsAt(x,y)
18:00:56 [jrossi]: smaug_: seems quite natural to go in css-om
18:01:00 [Travis]: CSSOM-Views; seems like the right place to me too.
18:01:24 [jrossi]: shepazu: I can see that. Only concern, would like to see this defined and in browsers. IE9?
18:01:44 [jrossi]: Travis: tight timeline, can't commit, would need to discuss internally
18:01:55 [jrossi]: Travis: workaround is available
18:02:01 [jrossi]: shepazu: workaround is somewhat obtuse
18:02:05 [jcraig]: jcraig has joined #webapps
18:04:51 [MikeSmith]: shepazu: ↑
18:04:57 [jrossi]: shepazu: would like to take a stab at defining this in D3E. Wouldn't mind marking as "at risk" and it could be taken out in Last Call and go in css-om?
18:05:07 [jrossi]: smaug_: Why do you want to have it in D3E?
18:05:25 [Zakim]: -MikeSmith
18:05:49 [MikeSmith]: Zakim, code?
18:05:49 [Zakim]: the conference code is 26632 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), MikeSmith
18:06:07 [jrossi]: smaug_: But what part goes in events? Doesn't make sense that D3E events is the place for this?
18:06:11 [jrossi]: jrossi: agrees
18:06:20 [jrossi]: shepazu: Put another way,...
18:06:25 [jrossi]: Travis: <sings>
18:06:30 [jrossi]: shepazu: <joins in>
18:06:53 [jrossi]: shepazu: I think that putting it in D3E events might persuade MSFT to implement.
18:07:04 [jcraig]: Zakim, call jcraig
18:07:04 [Zakim]: I am sorry, jcraig; I do not know a number for jcraig
18:07:39 [jrossi]: Travis: probably can't justify putting it in already. Fundamentally seems wrong to ram in through D3E.
18:07:49 [jcraig]: q?
18:08:07 [smaug_]: jcraig: the ARIA part of the meeting started over an hour ago
18:08:09 [jrossi]: Travis: Our SVG folks are interested in this. Could work with Anna to put this in CSS-Om.
18:09:10 [MikeSmith]: RRSAgent, make minutes
18:09:10 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/13-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:09:19 [jrossi]: shepazu: I'll recommend this goes in SVG/CSS transforms spec.
18:09:28 [MikeSmith]: RRSAgent, make logs public
18:09:50 [jrossi]: Travis: could mention we debated it and felt that it wasn't an events-related issue and felt like it was better suited for Element
18:10:16 [jrossi]: shepazu: Feel like MouseEvent is missing this thing. Would like to put these as attributes on the MouseEvents rather than separate method.
18:10:25 [MikeSmith]: scribe: jrossi
18:10:45 [jrossi]: Travis: I think we're wise to push to another location so that the details could be more paid attention to.
18:11:02 [jrossi]: Resolution: We will suggest this lives in CSS-OM or CSS/SVG Transforms spec.
18:11:04 [MikeSmith]: i/This is the first Last Call/scribe: jrossi
18:11:14 [MikeSmith]: RRSAgent, make logs public
18:11:18 [MikeSmith]: RRSAgent, make minutes
18:11:18 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/13-webapps-minutes.html MikeSmith
18:11:48 [Zakim]: -tonychang
18:13:26 [jrossi]: shepazu: Wondering if we should take another shot at DOMActivate in this other events spec.
18:13:47 [jrossi]: Travis: Certainly valid. Once again would want to understand why click isn't dragged back in the mix.
18:14:05 [jrossi]: shepazu: Click doesn't do everything. If you just want to listen to an activation, click is cumbersome.
18:14:38 [jrossi]: Travis: but now we'll be firing more specific events, hopefully, with this new spec
18:14:58 [jrossi]: jrossi: yes, DOMActivate seemed too generic to me. More specific events with more meaning (in this new spec) will be more useful.
18:15:51 [shepazu]: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/products/2
18:16:58 [jcraig]: jcraig has left #webapps
18:18:47 [jrossi]: Topic: Missing .key values
18:19:02 [jrossi]: shepazu: Issues raised by Microsoft
18:19:50 [jrossi]: or not actually raised.....emailed to list...
18:22:26 [jrossi]: shepazu: happy to add back multiple, also think there's some remote control type things that could be added
18:22:34 [shepazu]: ISSUE-149?
18:22:35 [trackbot]: ISSUE-149 -- The multiply and other key values are missing -- raised
18:22:35 [trackbot]: http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/track/issues/149
18:23:06 [jrossi]: Resolution: add "multiply" back. Need to discuss if add and plus are the same thing.
18:23:35 [Zakim]: -Travis
18:23:37 [shepazu]: trackbot: end telcon
18:23:37 [trackbot]: Zakim, list attendees
18:23:37 [Zakim]: As of this point the attendees have been Shepazu, Janina_Sajka, Gregory_Rosmaita, Michael_Cooper, Rich, Joseph_Scheuhammer, Olli_Pettay, Art_Barstow, Travis, tonychang, MikeSmith
18:23:38 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:23:38 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/10/13-webapps-minutes.html trackbot
18:23:39 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, bye
18:23:39 [RRSAgent]: I see no action items
18:23:40 [Zakim]: -Olli_Pettay