IRC log of ua on 2010-09-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

16:53:56 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:53:56 [RRSAgent]: logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-ua-irc
16:53:56 [sharper]: chair: Ford_Kelly, Allan_James
16:53:58 [trackbot]: RRSAgent, make logs public
16:53:58 [Zakim]: Zakim has joined #ua
16:54:00 [trackbot]: Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:54:00 [Zakim]: ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
16:54:01 [trackbot]: Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:54:01 [trackbot]: Date: 30 September 2010
16:54:06 [sharper]: scribe: Harper_Simon
16:54:06 [sharper]: ScribeNick: sharper
16:54:48 [sharper]: Date: Thursday, 30 September 2010
16:54:48 [sharper]: Time: 1:00-2:30 pm Boston Local Time, USA (18:00-19:30 UTC/GMT) http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/meeting.html
16:54:48 [sharper]: Call-in: Zakim bridge at: +1-617-761-6200, code 82941# for UK use +44.203.318.0479 (London)
16:54:49 [sharper]: IRC: server: irc.w3.org, port: 6665, channel: #ua.
16:55:17 [kford]: kford has joined #ua
16:55:28 [jeanne]: jeanne has joined #ua
16:55:42 [kford]: zakim, agenda?
16:55:42 [Zakim]: I see nothing on the agenda
16:55:50 [sharper]: editor versions
16:55:50 [sharper]: Guidelines: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20100920/
16:55:51 [sharper]: Implementing: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20100920/
16:55:51 [sharper]: Public documents
16:55:51 [sharper]: Guidelines - http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-UAAG20-20100617/
16:55:52 [sharper]: Implementing - http://www.w3.org/TR/2010/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20100617/
16:55:53 [sharper]: -- Attendance survey: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/UAWG20100707/
16:55:55 [sharper]: -- Scribe schedule and scribing help: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/scribing.html
16:55:57 [sharper]: -- Please monitor your open Action Items: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/open
16:55:59 [sharper]: -- Open Issues: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/issues/open s updated documents
16:56:01 [sharper]: Agenda+ Action Item Review
16:56:03 [sharper]: Agenda+ Finish Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/
16:56:05 [sharper]: Agenda+ November F2F
16:56:07 [sharper]: Agenda+ Browser Implementations
16:56:09 [sharper]: Agenda+ HTML5 Concerns/Bugs
16:56:38 [sharper]: zakim, save agenda
16:56:45 [Zakim]: ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-ua-agenda.rdf
16:56:45 [sharper]: rrsagent, make logs public
16:56:45 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
16:56:45 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
16:56:58 [kford]: Agenda+ Action Item Review
16:57:00 [kford]: Agenda+ Finish Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/
16:57:01 [kford]: Agenda+ November F2F
16:57:04 [kford]: Agenda+ Browser Implementations
16:57:06 [kford]: Agenda+ HTML5 Concerns/Bugs
16:57:52 [kford]: zakim, delete item 10
16:57:52 [Zakim]: agendum 10, HTML5 Concerns/Bugs, dropped
16:58:00 [kford]: zakim, delete item 9
16:58:00 [Zakim]: agendum 9, Browser Implementations, dropped
16:58:07 [kford]: zakim, delete item 8
16:58:07 [Zakim]: agendum 8, November F2F, dropped
16:58:15 [kford]: zakim, delete item 7
16:58:15 [Zakim]: agendum 7, Finish Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/, dropped
16:58:28 [kford]: zakim, delete item 6
16:58:28 [Zakim]: agendum 6, Action Item Review, dropped
16:58:41 [sharper]: agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2010JulSep/0105.html
16:58:58 [kford]: agenda+ HTML 5 Media Group Request
16:59:08 [kford]: zakim, agenda?
16:59:08 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
16:59:10 [Zakim]: 1. Action Item Review [from sharper]
16:59:11 [Zakim]: 2. Finish Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from sharper]
16:59:13 [Zakim]: 3. November F2F [from sharper]
16:59:15 [Zakim]: 4. Browser Implementations [from sharper]
16:59:17 [Zakim]: 5. HTML5 Concerns/Bugs [from sharper]
16:59:19 [Zakim]: 11. HTML 5 Media Group Request [from kford]
16:59:43 [sharper]: present+ Harper_Simon
16:59:51 [kford]: zakim, order is 5, 11, 2, 1, 3, 4
16:59:51 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'order is 5, 11, 2, 1, 3, 4', kford
16:59:58 [sharper]: present+ Ford_Kelly
17:00:12 [sharper]: present+ Spellman_Jeanne
17:00:14 [kford]: zakim, agenda?
17:00:14 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:00:16 [Zakim]: 1. Action Item Review [from sharper]
17:00:17 [Zakim]: 2. Finish Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from sharper]
17:00:20 [Zakim]: 3. November F2F [from sharper]
17:00:22 [Zakim]: 4. Browser Implementations [from sharper]
17:00:23 [Zakim]: 5. HTML5 Concerns/Bugs [from sharper]
17:00:24 [Zakim]: 11. HTML 5 Media Group Request [from kford]
17:00:27 [sharper]: zakim, save agenda
17:00:27 [Zakim]: ok, sharper, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-ua-agenda.rdf
17:00:29 [Zakim]: WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:00:36 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
17:00:36 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
17:00:37 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
17:00:42 [Zakim]: +Gregory_Rosmaita
17:01:06 [sharper]: present+ Rosmaita_Gregory
17:01:34 [sharper]: zakim: code?
17:01:50 [sharper]: zakim, code?
17:01:50 [Zakim]: the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), sharper
17:02:31 [Zakim]: +??P6
17:02:41 [sharper]: zakim, ??P6 is sharper
17:02:41 [Zakim]: +sharper; got it
17:03:26 [Zakim]: +[Microsoft]
17:03:29 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
17:03:29 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
17:03:36 [kford]: zakim, microsoft is kford
17:03:36 [Zakim]: +kford; got it
17:03:43 [Zakim]: +??P8
17:05:33 [Zakim]: + +1.617.325.aaaa
17:05:39 [oedipus]: zakim, who is here?
17:05:39 [Zakim]: On the phone I see Jeanne, Gregory_Rosmaita, sharper, kford, ??P8, +1.617.325.aaaa
17:05:41 [Zakim]: On IRC I see jeanne, kford, Zakim, RRSAgent, sharper, oedipus, trackbot
17:06:05 [oedipus]: zakim, aaaa is Kim_Patch
17:06:05 [Zakim]: +Kim_Patch; got it
17:07:02 [oedipus]: zakim, who is noisy?
17:07:12 [sharper]: zakim, who is making noise?
17:07:13 [Zakim]: oedipus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gregory_Rosmaita (32%), Jeanne (14%), ??P8 (86%), Kim_Patch (5%)
17:07:23 [Zakim]: sharper, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gregory_Rosmaita (25%), Jeanne (19%), kford (5%), Kim_Patch (19%)
17:07:25 [KimPatch]: KimPatch has joined #ua
17:07:42 [oedipus]: zakim, mute Gregory_Rosmaita
17:07:42 [Zakim]: Gregory_Rosmaita should now be muted
17:07:51 [kford]: Regrets:Jim
17:08:02 [sharper]: zakim, ??P8 is Hakkinen_Mark
17:08:02 [Zakim]: +Hakkinen_Mark; got it
17:08:13 [oedipus]: minutes from HTML A11y TF telecon 2010-09-30 http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-html-a11y-minutes.html
17:08:23 [kford]: zakim, agenda
17:08:23 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'agenda', kford
17:08:26 [oedipus]: zakim, unmute Gregory_Rosmaita
17:08:26 [Zakim]: Gregory_Rosmaita should no longer be muted
17:08:28 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
17:08:28 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
17:08:51 [kford]: zakim, agenda
17:08:51 [Zakim]: I don't understand 'agenda', kford
17:08:59 [kford]: zakim, agenda?
17:08:59 [Zakim]: I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
17:09:01 [Zakim]: 1. Action Item Review [from sharper]
17:09:03 [Zakim]: 2. Finish Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/ [from sharper]
17:09:05 [Zakim]: 3. November F2F [from sharper]
17:09:06 [Zakim]: 4. Browser Implementations [from sharper]
17:09:07 [Zakim]: 5. HTML5 Concerns/Bugs [from sharper]
17:09:08 [Zakim]: 11. HTML 5 Media Group Request [from kford]
17:09:10 [kford]: zakim, take up item 5
17:09:10 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "HTML5 Concerns/Bugs" taken up [from sharper]
17:09:23 [oedipus]: q+ to ask if HTML5 can be addressed first
17:09:26 [oedipus]: ack oed
17:09:26 [Zakim]: oedipus, you wanted to ask if HTML5 can be addressed first
17:09:31 [sharper]: zakim, take up item 5
17:09:31 [Zakim]: agendum 5. "HTML5 Concerns/Bugs" taken up [from sharper]
17:10:19 [oedipus]: make @title a required attribute of FRAME and IFRAME http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10709
17:10:24 [sharper]: GR: Keyboard requirements approved by task force so logging as a bug
17:10:24 [mhakkinen]: mhakkinen has joined #ua
17:11:34 [sharper]: GR: JAs suggestion for @title requirement of FRAME and IFRAME - people not supportive - we need to take this bug on in bugzilla
17:12:18 [sharper]: GR: As issues get logged HTML5 can comment directly in the bug
17:12:49 [sharper]: GR: Also filing a number of other comprehensive bugs.
17:13:34 [Greg]: Greg has joined #ua
17:13:37 [sharper]: GR: After tomorrow no bugs will be logged as pre-last call bugs - but bugs already in (even if closed by the editor) will be pre-last call bugs
17:14:02 [sharper]: regrets+ Richards_Jan
17:14:17 [sharper]: GR: will compile bug list and send to UA list
17:15:07 [sharper]: JS: will be back-up bug entry person if GR has systems failure before close of business Boston Time.
17:15:18 [Zakim]: +??P11
17:16:08 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Access/pf_requirements_revision
17:16:15 [kford]: zakim close item 5
17:16:46 [sharper]: KP: Going directly to links - is this more of a UI issue?
17:17:12 [sharper]: GR: yes - would like to talk with KP more about it - GR could not convince peorple it is not a UA issue
17:17:25 [sharper]: s/peorple/people
17:18:47 [sharper]: JS: about what an other codes and what the UA does ie providing a numeric for each link is something the UA should do, not the content developer
17:19:23 [sharper]: GR: we can work together on this - KP agrees - post meeting (meeting) agreed
17:19:34 [kford]: zakim, close item 5
17:19:34 [Zakim]: agendum 5, HTML5 Concerns/Bugs, closed
17:19:36 [Zakim]: I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:19:37 [Zakim]: 1. Action Item Review [from sharper]
17:19:46 [kford]: zakim, take up item 11
17:19:46 [Zakim]: agendum 11. "HTML 5 Media Group Request" taken up [from kford]
17:21:10 [kford]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Media_Accessibility_Checklist#ka
17:21:11 [sharper]: KF: Media Group have asked us to review a document:
17:21:18 [oedipus]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Media_Accessibility_Checklist
17:22:07 [sharper]: KF: is it accurate if they say we don't have a direct corrolation 2) how important do we think this is?
17:22:52 [sharper]: KF: First req - provide an indication that descriptions are available and are active or nonactive
17:23:18 [sharper]: KF: they say that it is not required for UAAG conformance - we say it is required
17:23:47 [sharper]: KF: We don't use 'audio description' ...
17:24:13 [sharper]: KF: they have 130 entries which we need to review and give answers to
17:24:47 [sharper]: KF: Discussion - Logistics of doing this.
17:27:06 [sharper]: KF: Meeting arranged - JS: KF: MH:
17:27:27 [kford]: 3.1.1 Identify Presence of Alternative Content: The user can have indicators rendered along with rendered elements that have alternative content (e.g. visual icons rendered in proximity of content that has short text alternatives, long descriptions, or captions). (Level A).
17:28:17 [mhakkinen]: MH stepping away for a few mins
17:28:24 [jeanne]: zakim, is there room for 3 tomorrow at 11:00?
17:28:27 [Zakim]: ok, jeanne; conference Team_(ua)15:00Z scheduled with code 82942 (uawg2) tomorrow at 11:00 for 60 minutes until 1600Z
17:29:14 [sharper]: RESOLVED: Meeting arranged - JS KF MH
17:29:15 [jeanne]: regrets+ Jan
17:29:28 [kford]: zakim, close item 11
17:29:28 [Zakim]: agendum 11, HTML 5 Media Group Request, closed
17:29:29 [Zakim]: I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
17:29:30 [Zakim]: 1. Action Item Review [from sharper]
17:29:41 [kford]: zakim, take up item 2
17:29:41 [Zakim]: agendum 2. "Finish Writers Meeting Survey#4 - http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20100802-4/" taken up [from sharper]
17:30:43 [sharper]: topic: 3.6.3 Option Range Intent, Examples and Related Resources.
17:30:50 [sharper]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20100802/MasterUAAG20100802.html#gl-text-config
17:31:46 [sharper]: A 1/ C 1 / D 3
17:36:12 [sharper]: GL: 3.6.1 doesn't say anthing about the range
17:36:23 [sharper]: s/anthing/anything/
17:39:22 [sharper]: GL: Should we combine the 2 sc's 3.6.1 + 3.6.3 - but many iffs
17:40:19 [sharper]: KP: what is the advantage of combining - how clear will it be?
17:42:38 [sharper]: KP: add 3.6.3 after 3.6.1
17:42:47 [sharper]: GL Combines this to be
17:43:02 [Greg]: Here's the first draft of merging 3.6.3 into 3.6.1:
17:43:04 [Greg]: 3.6.1 Configure Text: The user can globally set the following characteristics of visually rendered text content, overriding any specified by the author or user agent defaults (Level A):
17:43:06 [Greg]: •(a) text scale (i.e., the general size of text) ,
17:43:07 [Greg]: •(b) font family, and
17:43:09 [Greg]: •(c) text color (i.e., foreground and background).
17:43:10 [Greg]: The range of options for each text characteristic includes at least (Level A):
17:43:12 [Greg]: •(a) the range offered by global preference settings supported by the operating environment (i.e configured though the Control Panel or System) utility, or
17:43:13 [Greg]: •(b) if no such utility is available, the range supported by the conventional APIs of the operating environment for drawing text.
17:43:29 [sharper]: GL needs to be smoothed
17:49:41 [Zakim]: -Jeanne
17:50:04 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
17:53:11 [Zakim]: -Gregory_Rosmaita
17:53:49 [sharper]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/435
17:54:37 [sharper]: RESOLVED: GR: to complete 435 - http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/actions/435
17:54:55 [kford]: Gregory going to combine 3.6.1 and 3.6.3
17:55:23 [Zakim]: +Gregory_Rosmaita
17:56:25 [sharper]: KF: to accept GL's changes for beginning of intent for 3.6.3
17:56:33 [Greg]: Propose rewriting beginning of Intent for 3.6.3 (which might be folded into 3.6.1) to read "Users need to able to access a wide range of font sizes, styles, colors, and other attributes in order to find the combination that works best for their particular needs. For example, some users want to increase font size to make text more legible, while other users want to reduce the font size to...
17:56:35 [Greg]: ...decrease the need to scroll the content. "
17:57:14 [Greg]: Note that I changed to from "visual needs" to "needs" because it's more general than just vision.
17:58:03 [sharper]: KF: Intent and examples also need to be merged in this case
17:58:04 [oedipus]: KimPatch, you might be interested in a previous attempt to get direct access to links and form controls: http://www.hicom.net/~oedipus/vicug/iaap/index.html
17:58:47 [Greg]: What I just pasted in would replace the Intent for 3.6.1 and the first sentence of the intent of 3.6.3.
18:00:27 [sharper]: GL: JS could combine these two and then await GR's updates
18:00:34 [jeanne]: action: Jeanne to combine 3.6.1 and 3.6.3 using the minutes of the meeting of 30 September
18:00:34 [trackbot]: Created ACTION-453 - Combine 3.6.1 and 3.6.3 using the minutes of the meeting of 30 September [on Jeanne Spellman - due 2010-10-07].
18:01:03 [sharper]: RESOLVED: Jeanne to combine 3.6.1 and 3.6.3 using the minutes of the meeting of 30 September
18:02:33 [sharper]: RESOLVED: We will need to revisit 3.6.3 after GRs changes which will drive changes to the intent para
18:03:07 [sharper]: topic: 3.1.4 Rendering Alternative (Enhanced) Intent, Examples and Related Resources
18:03:07 [sharper]: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2010/ED-UAAG20-20100802/MasterUAAG20100802.html#gl-text-config
18:03:08 [Greg]: That is, changes to how the combined SC describes the required range of options will drive changes to the Intent paragraph.
18:03:42 [sharper]: Accept 1/ Changes 1 / Discuss 2
18:05:11 [Greg]: My attempt to explain *why* this SC was needed, by changing the last sentence to: "The user may find different alternatives more useful or appropriate depending on the nature of the document and their task. By specifying which item(s) to render by default, and the order of the cascade of alternatives to render when the author failed to provide some types of alternatives, they can ensure that...
18:05:12 [Greg]: ...the information presented to them makes their task as efficient as possible."
18:05:24 [Zakim]: -Hakkinen_Mark
18:05:55 [oedipus]: plus 1 to concept expressed by GL
18:06:08 [oedipus]: GL = Greg Lowney, not guideline
18:06:26 [Zakim]: +Mark_Hakkinen
18:09:22 [Zakim]: -Gregory_Rosmaita
18:09:22 [sharper]: KF: / GL Discussion regarding 3.1.2 (not about a cascade of types) 3.1.4 is about a cascade of types
18:09:55 [Greg]: Kelly questions the title of "Rendering Alternative (Enhanced)", which was probably more appropriate before we changed the title of 3.1.2 or the like.
18:10:03 [sharper]: GL: Intent of 3.1.4 could clarify that it is extending 3.1.2 - providing additional / complex alternatives
18:13:20 [sharper]: GL: the sc's are not written in a simple form - more in a legal format
18:17:04 [kford]: do you want me to call you gregory, if so e-mail my number
18:17:14 [Zakim]: -Jeanne
18:17:39 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
18:17:50 [Zakim]: -Mark_Hakkinen
18:20:00 [Greg]: The upshot of 3.1 is that you should be able to see at a glance which pieces of content have alternatives like alt text or longdesc (3.1.1) and click on an item to see which alternatives are available for it (3.3.3); they can also choose at least one alternative like alt text to be always displayed (3.1.2), but it’s recommended that they also be able to specify a cascade, like alt text if...
18:20:01 [Greg]: ...it’s there, otherwise longdesc, otherwise, filename, etc.
18:21:44 [Zakim]: -Jeanne
18:21:48 [oedipus]: thanks, kelly, but i need to let my phones recharge
18:22:02 [Zakim]: +Jeanne
18:22:31 [oedipus]: FYI, since you mentioned longdesc, HTML5 lacks a verbose description mechanism HTML Bug 10853: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
18:26:55 [sharper]: KP: Discussion re the desire to create these short overviews - when should it be done?
18:29:50 [sharper]: RESOLVED: add agenda item to next call so that we can run through a few of these - KP proposes GL and KP to thrash out a couple more ready for discussion next Thursday.
18:32:15 [Zakim]: -sharper
18:32:52 [kford]: what was your question Simon?
18:33:21 [kford]: I don't think we have a clear action yet.
18:33:31 [kford]: Let's leave it open in the minutes for now.
18:34:05 [Zakim]: -Jeanne
18:34:17 [sharper]: rrsagent, make logs public
18:34:22 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
18:34:22 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:34:31 [sharper]: zakim, please part
18:34:31 [Zakim]: leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jeanne, Gregory_Rosmaita, sharper, kford, +1.617.325.aaaa, Kim_Patch, Hakkinen_Mark, Mark_Hakkinen
18:34:31 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #ua
18:34:42 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
18:34:42 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:35:22 [oedipus]: present+ Greg_Lowney
18:35:39 [sharper]: rrsagent, draft minutes
18:35:39 [RRSAgent]: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-ua-minutes.html sharper
18:35:48 [oedipus]: present- +1.617.325.aaaa
18:36:09 [sharper]: rrsagent, please part
18:36:09 [RRSAgent]: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-ua-actions.rdf :
18:36:09 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Jeanne to combine 3.6.1 and 3.6.3 using the minutes of the meeting of 30 September [1]
18:36:09 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2010/09/30-ua-irc#T18-00-34