16:05:20 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webperf
16:05:20 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/29-webperf-irc
16:05:34 <AndersonQuach> rrsagent, set logs world-visible
16:05:52 <AndersonQuach> meeting: Web Performance Working Group #04
16:06:35 <AndersonQuach> chair: ArvindJain
16:06:39 <AndersonQuach> chair: JasonWeber
16:06:52 <AndersonQuach> scribe: AndersonQuach
16:07:03 <AndersonQuach> present: ArvindJain
16:07:06 <AndersonQuach> present: SteveSouders
16:07:11 <AndersonQuach> present: AndersonQuach
16:07:19 <AndersonQuach> list the agenda
16:07:44 <Zakim> +??P30
16:08:00 <AndersonQuach> clear the agenda
16:08:07 <AndersonQuach> present: Zhiheng
16:08:46 <zhiheng> zhiheng has joined #webperf
16:09:40 <AndersonQuach> agenda+ Feedback on the processing model.
16:10:05 <AndersonQuach> agenda+ Feedback on the lifetime management of the navigation timing, tied with the lifetime of the document object and interactivity with the unload event.
16:10:11 <AndersonQuach> agenda+ Resource Timing scenarios.
16:10:18 <AndersonQuach> agenda+ User Timings.
16:10:23 <AndersonQuach> agenda+ F2F meeting updates.
16:10:29 <AndersonQuach> agenda+ TPAC meeting updates.
16:10:34 <AndersonQuach> agenda+ Any other business.
16:10:45 <AndersonQuach> zakim, save agenda
16:10:52 <Zakim> ok, AndersonQuach, the agenda has been written to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/29-webperf-agenda.rdf
16:12:30 <AndersonQuach> list the agenda
16:13:56 <AndersonQuach> next agendum
16:14:19 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: going thru the feedback in the web perf email list.
16:15:02 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: That way the timeline in a cached DNS scenario would go from looking like this:
16:15:07 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: (fs,dls,dle)---(cs)---(ce)
16:15:36 <AndersonQuach>  (fs)---(dls,dle,cs)---(ce)
16:15:58 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach Let domainLookupStart, domainLookupEnd, be the same value as connectStart.
16:16:12 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach Let connectStart, connectEnd be the same value as requestStart.
16:17:30 <Zakim> + +1.650.214.aacc
16:17:50 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng question, domainLookup, connectStart already init to fetchStart and have the same value, what's the scenario?
16:20:48 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: how would we test if we were to snap to the latest timestamp?
16:20:57 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: good question.
16:21:21 <tonyg> tonyg has joined #webperf
16:22:30 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: can be tested by breaking down case by case, i. dns cached, ii. connection established iii. doc cached.
16:25:30 <AndersonQuach> Tony: the issue if we have time between phases in the event of these cached scenarios
16:26:01 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: goal, network timing scenario, fine putting them into fetchStart, the variable in this case for dns and connection
16:26:32 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: now the user agent will have wait for the timestamp to fill out the values.
16:27:52 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: so you're concerned with the implementation issue, difficultly?
16:27:58 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: yes
16:28:38 <AndersonQuach> Tony: dns lookup may be zero in the cache, the question is, in that case do we snap to the end or beginning of the time, either option seems fine. i don't understand why it's perferable to snap to the end.
16:29:27 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: would love to get feedback from other browser implemetnations.
16:30:03 <AndersonQuach> present: tonyg
16:30:48 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: caching scenario may have different starting points, cache miss, request start the browser something to the network.
16:31:15 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: always starting the requestStart when the browser does a cache lookup
16:31:32 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: cache look up can come before the fetch
16:33:20 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: IE is abstracted from the networking request
16:33:31 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: how about chrome
16:34:12 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: can you differentiate lookup times from fetchign resource from cache or fetched the network
16:34:28 <AndersonQuach> Tony: we could, we didn't want to for privacy reasons
16:34:58 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: should we start from the look-up from cache or from when we fetch from the network, in the case of a cache miss. when should we start the requestStart timestamp
16:35:57 <AndersonQuach> Tony: i believe in the current implementation, tell the http stack to get something, or it may hit the cache, or hit the network. we're timing the http stack api, get me a request. in that request time, we're including disk cache lookup
16:36:01 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: we have some agreement
16:36:22 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: requestStart will have both the cache hit and cache miss time
16:36:51 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: according to the html5 spec, fetchStart may come before requestStart
16:37:01 <AndersonQuach> Tony: in chrome would be impossible for request to start before fetch
16:37:41 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: instead of fetchStart we want to come up with another name, we are referring to the fetch process in html5
16:37:58 <AndersonQuach> Tony: maybe, i'm not sure if our publicly facing names need to correspond.
16:38:04 <AndersonQuach> Tony: fetch start makes sense in our api
16:39:19 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: it would be okay to use fetch, as long as we are clear about its definition
16:39:30 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: will look up and provide a reference
16:39:33 <AndersonQuach> next agendum
16:41:31 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: feedback, i think you meant the lifetime of the current document object and not the window object
16:41:47 <AndersonQuach> Tony: I think it's tied to the window not the document.
16:42:26 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: when you navigate across different documents, update timings. for a new document, a new window should be created.
16:42:32 <AndersonQuach> Tony: I need to check on these.
16:43:15 <zhiheng> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/browsers.html#garbage-collection-and-browsing-contexts
16:45:49 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: during the unload which navigation timing object should we provide, we should be reading the timing of the current browsing context
16:46:14 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: we agree that it should be tied to the current browsing context
16:47:37 <AndersonQuach> Tony: HTML5 spec out pretty well, page cache in web kit and fast back in mozilla. when you do go back, fast back, you would get the navigation timing on the original load rather than generate a new one on a fast back. everything that was in the dom was restored back up. we'll need to cover this in the spec.
16:47:51 <AndersonQuach> Tony: search for page hide and page show events
16:47:56 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: ok
16:49:21 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: provide feedback through email on the clarification on the language.
16:51:15 <AndersonQuach> list the agenda
16:51:33 <AndersonQuach> move to agendum 5
16:52:04 <plh> plh has joined #webperf
16:52:27 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: use the f2f to talk about best practices and test cases.
16:52:37 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: list the goals for each items.
16:52:54 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: use the time to build out the list of goals and successes 
16:53:55 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: browser implementation neutral, compatible time phases
16:54:42 <AndersonQuach> AndersonQuach: use the meeting to also close on open issues
16:55:28 <AndersonQuach> JasonWeber: also treat the spec, section by section and talking about it with everyone in the room and agree on the content of each section says. sign-off on the design and be confident when we publish this out. this will be aligned with the implementation with ie9 and chrome.
16:55:32 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: sounds good
16:55:40 <AndersonQuach> JasonWeber: that can take 1-2hrs on 10/5
16:55:45 <AndersonQuach> present: JasonWeber
16:56:28 <AndersonQuach> JasonWeber: make it a priority, start with open issue, go with spec review phase, and then we close on that we can move to best practices and test cases and other areas. i'm very excited pulling off the vendor prefix, for the next ie platform preview.
16:56:33 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: that would be awesome.
16:56:38 <AndersonQuach> Tony: yeah definitely.
16:56:56 <AndersonQuach> list agenda
16:57:16 <AndersonQuach> ArvindJain: are we having the meeting there? Microsoft will be remotely attending
16:57:22 <AndersonQuach> move to agendum 6
16:57:43 <AndersonQuach> JasonWeber: Anderson and myself do not plan on attending, as we will meet face to face in mountainview
16:57:57 <AndersonQuach> Zhiheng: i need to confirm with my management
16:58:18 <AndersonQuach> JasonWeber: we plan on attending remotely, Microsoft will be largely represented at TPAC in other areas
16:58:26 <AndersonQuach> ArvindJain: we'll get back to you on the attendence
16:58:58 <Zakim> - +1.650.823.aabb
16:58:59 <Zakim> - +1.650.214.aacc
16:59:00 <Zakim> - +1.650.253.aaaa
16:59:05 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:59:06 <Zakim> -??P30
16:59:07 <Zakim> RWC_web-per(WPWG)12:00PM has ended
16:59:09 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.650.253.aaaa, +1.650.823.aabb, [Microsoft], +1.650.214.aacc
16:59:09 <AndersonQuach> regrets: njansma
20:09:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webperf
20:09:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2010/09/29-webperf-irc
20:09:36 <AndersonQuach> rrsagent, draft minutes
20:09:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2010/09/29-webperf-minutes.html AndersonQuach